Avatar the Last Airbender Mafia: D4ends 5/2 at 9:30 PM EST

[charlie_]

i've had this thing open for like two hours curse you awakening

He can't claim roleblocked forever.

Based on Eli claiming hooked today, this bothers me. Well, the whole thing bothers me, but this in particular. There was nobody blocked (claimed, at least) night 0, even though there was supposedly a redirect. Redirect is probably town (although I don't know why they did anything night 1), seeing as how Eli's kill was blocked and not redirected. Townsided hook and roleblock would be pretty ridiculous, on top of that.

Kiryn's slot reads scum to me based off of the one post he made with actual reads, as he was constantly protecting himself with stuff like, "I might not have read right" which throws up some red flags for me. There's also the fact he found Grass scummy solely because he found his town read scummy, or at least that was what it implied.

Boron's interactions with Mancer read as genuinely frustrated townie to me, with Mancer looking a lot worse in comparison. Along with the pressing Boron based on her element claim, and the latephase trying to quickly start up wagons on a few unlikely lynches (most notably, FTP who had 0 votes, and BBM who didn't have too many either) really late into the phase, and pressuring people to consolidate on lynches when there was no reason to do so.

FTP, why are you so quick to assume Psych is hostile third over scum? Sounds kind of like FTP is hunting for thirds over scum, which might be something to look into*. In that same post she mentioned about her finding it odd with eclipse not wanting to out the Cop when she knew who they are, but still finding her townie later on in the post.

I am not "pushing" the Slayer lynch, I simply have my vote on him until I see a better alternative.

Also this caught my eye reading back through. Why stack your vote up on someone who you don't particularly care for lynching, and only plan to as a last a resort. This logic sucks. As far as I can tell, his only scumreads are Kay and Psych, who are the two most popular wagons, and despite all the antitown behavior from Mancer he still seems to be townreading him.

*More on this point, where Psych thought Rein was ITP, that would imply that Slayer probably isn't. And seeing as how there was only a single nighkill tonight that rules out a lot of possible thirds.

##Vote: FTP

Marth still looks bad to me though, his only scumreads are on the two largest wagons, and he's ignored a lot of the stuff that's been said against him all game. In addition to this, he came back randomly 5 hours later after the content post to complain loudly but not to actually do anything. Clipsey mentioned that she disagreed with his entire post, but he just ignored that completely.

[Fear The Pika]

FTP, why are you so quick to assume Psych is hostile third over scum? Sounds kind of like FTP is hunting for thirds over scum, which might be something to look into*.

Hold on, I never said that Psych is only third party. Lemme quote exactly what I said.

"6. Psych is just... weird. I'm thinking possible third party, maybe scum?"

There is no certainty about which he is, but I don't feel he's town. I don't think he's town, but I don't know which of ITP or maf because he hasn't posted more today, and D1 posts don't really help decide.

In that same post she mentioned about her finding it odd with eclipse not wanting to out the Cop when she knew who they are, but still finding her townie later on in the post.

Again, I didn't say that. What I said is "2. What's the big deal with Eclipse claiming she knows who the alignment cop is and doesn't want to out him?" I never found it odd that Eclipse isn't outing the cop, I'm asking why people were making it a big deal. Completely different.

Also this caught my eye reading back through. Why stack your vote up on someone who you don't particularly care for lynching, and only plan to as a last a resort. This logic sucks. As far as I can tell, his only scumreads are Kay and Psych, who are the two most popular wagons, and despite all the antitown behavior from Mancer he still seems to be townreading him.

What was the harm in voting for an ITP when I didn't see a good alternative yet? There wasn't a hammer and the day wasn't ending soon, so does it really matter where I put a vote? And I believe Mancer's claim of Zuko/Miller, so regardless of how he's playing, that first part stands (besides that I've been informed that this is how he usually plays).

Also, I have a null read on Kay, and am still looking at other people as I haven't really examined the thread yet today. It isn't that I don't think other people might be scum, it's that I haven't had the time to look in-depth at these people. And on that note, I find you twisting what I said to be somewhat scummy, as town should never be changing the meaning of words. You will be one of the people I look back at.

[Prims]

Votecount

Psych (5): Mancer, Marth, Elieson, Grassbridger, FtP

Kay (4): Boron, eclipse, BBM, Rein
Boron (2): Strege, Kay
FtP (1): SB
Marth (1): Blitz

Voteless Scum (3): Kiryn, Slayer, Psych

You have about 49 hours and 35 minutes left in the day (I believe).

[Elieson]

FTP? Who made it a big deal about eclipse not putting her thoughts out about who she thinks alliance cop is? I asked her opinion about why she thought the cop was dumb but not who she Thought it was.

It really isn't a problem beause I don't think anyone really put that out on the table...I'd like some justification

[Fear The Pika]

These are the particular quotes I was referring to.

BACK TO MORE RELEVANT AND INTERESTING THINGS.


I'll take you on your word for the first part.

What's missing is stuff like answers to this (the second question):


This is what Psych said, complete with quote. If you weren't sure, why didn't you ask him what he meant/press him further?

Grassbridger: If Prims was alive, I'd be heartily arguing with him right now. Since he's not, the least I can do is respond to the last solid thing he put out there. I'd go more into the last bit about knowing the cop, but it is in the town's best interests to keep it to myself, rather than point it out to everyone.

Based on my theory of who the cop is, I think that person might be dumb enough to target Slayer N1 after I specifically mentioned two things in my posts that should've made it clear that targeting Slayer on N1 would be a really bad idea. Thus, the PS and the two D1 posts.

(Additional PS: Why didn't you scan me last night?)

I don't understand a lot of what eclipse is saying in regard to roles and I would like some clarification, or at least some input that I'm more likely to understand. I appreciate the effort to mediate though.

I didn't realize people were still so hung up on Rein (I think it was Rein) saying the enemy faction was the Fire Nation. I'd assumed the same thing going in -- it's basically the only antagonistic faction from the show that has more than a couple named villains (Earth Nation is closest, and it's not that close). I'll leave my flavour opinions at that.

Sangyul has referenced eclipse's posts and vaguely crumbed some information, which is less helpful to me than eclipse's original content. She has defended herself fairly well, but as a result hasn't helped the town much despite her large amount of posts. Shinori calling her out doesn't tell me anything because of the way Shinori was talking in the end -- I'd have difficulty believing it was some kind of gambit. A large amount of posts without many reads and some weak logic means ##Vote Sangyul for me.

Psych is looking unprepared, and more than a bit scummy with his hinted-at role information and lack of reads. Give me reasons, even one reason, not to suspect you right now. I looked through Cap'n Flint's ISO and little of it strikes me as substantial (even before he left due to IRL business). Kay and SB have been posting very few reads lately -- talking about votes isn't the same thing.

All right, I'll try! Look at your own role PM. That is your role. Notice how mostly everyone hasn't directly announced what their role is? Townspeople do not want to do this, and give the mafia an idea of who to kill. Mafia does not want to do this because they are trying to act like town/they don't want to be found out on role (certain roles are absolutely, positively NOT town-aligned). Now, if I think I've figured out a powerful town role, based on deduction, I do NOT want to out this. If I am right, I am painting a bullseye on someone's head, and this is a risk I refuse to take. That's why I explained only as much as I did (going into full detail requires naming who I think the cop is).

If I got the wrong thing, lemme know!

[Strege]

I like Blitz's vote on Boron better than the other two votes on her- 'being unmemorable' isn't exactly good enough to vote when we're in D2 and there's more reason to vote. Also Strege what do yu mean by 'I'd have difficulty believing it was some kind of gambit'? Kinda confused on this one.

Sorry, I should have quoted and explained better. I was referring to this defense:

Shinori saying that I'm town aligned means nothing, Mancer. If he's truly alignment cop then he must have scanned me and I am town. If he's scum, his word means nothing. If Shinori and I were scum buddies, why would he say that I was town? Once he gets lynched it reflects badly on me. You don't want to tie yourself to your scum buddies like that. Even if you're going to argue "WIFOM", it's still a risky gambit that ties Shinori to me.

Sangyul says that Shinori's claim means nothing but then implies that he is innocent because he was singled out, which would be bad strategy if they were both mafia. However, I don't think that Shinori's attitude was very strategic at the point where he said that and I'm not ruling out the possibility that Shinori and Sangyul are both mafia. This is just a possibility, and on its own doesn't implicate Sangyul, but I don't like his reference to it later as a defense since it isn't a good one.

[BBM]

To be fair, Boron wasn't saying that Shinori saying she was town made her town, just that it didn't make her scum either. She says it means nothing, not that it means she's scum.

[BBM]

To be fair, Boron wasn't saying that Shinori saying she was town made her town, just that it didn't make her scum either. She says it means nothing, not that it means she's town.

grr words

Strege, what are your opinions on Kay?

[Sunwoo]

Sangyul says that Shinori's claim means nothing but then implies that he is innocent because he was singled out, which would be bad strategy if they were both mafia. However, I don't think that Shinori's attitude was very strategic at the point where he said that and I'm not ruling out the possibility that Shinori and Sangyul are both mafia. This is just a possibility, and on its own doesn't implicate Sangyul, but I don't like his reference to it later as a defense since it isn't a good one.

That's not even a defense. And I was specifically asked what I thought about Shinori's flip and his "clearing" me. The fact that scum!Shinori picked me out of all people to "clear" doesn't make me scum or town in itself, not unless you can prove that you know what his state of mind at that time was.

Kay, forgive me if what you said about the timing of your vote is the truth, but I'm not a mind reader and I can only call things as they look. And it looks bad to me that you switched your vote immediately after Strege and Blitz voted me.

[Strege]

That's not even a defense. And I was specifically asked what I thought about Shinori's flip and his "clearing" me. The fact that scum!Shinori picked me out of all people to "clear" doesn't make me scum or town in itself, not unless you can prove that you know what his state of mind at that time was.

Kay, forgive me if what you said about the timing of your vote is the truth, but I'm not a mind reader and I can only call things as they look. And it looks bad to me that you switched your vote immediately after Strege and Blitz voted me.

The last sentence of your first paragraph doesn't address my argument. I am specifically saying that Shinori's claim says nothing about your alignment on its own. My problem is that your post seemed to imply that Shinori's claim made you less likely to be scum, which as we have both now stated is not the case.

Working through Kay's ISO now. I feel like her reads have been kind of weak and she's generally been very reactive, which strikes me as really suspicious. I'll try to dig up an example to justify my opinion and so that she has a chance to defend herself on that. I think Blitz's and Kay's votes on Boron are weird because they followed mine so closely and didn't bring much more justification to the table than I did, and because so far my opinions haven't garnered any reaction except to correct or teach me.

[Sunwoo]

The last sentence of your first paragraph doesn't address my argument. I am specifically saying that Shinori's claim says nothing about your alignment on its own. My problem is that your post seemed to imply that Shinori's claim made you less likely to be scum, which as we have both now stated is not the case.

I implied no such thing. Ever.

[Strege]

Regarding Kay:

I still think you and Eli are both a bit scummy, Eli more so. I think Psych's probably just being weird, and isn't actually mafia. I'm kinda suspicious of Boron just because she's been really unmemorable. I would have voted for her a little while ago, but then that argument with Mancer and I kind of figured it might be better to let her cool off a bit and not risk provoking a ragequit or something. Which is basically over now but yeah. Also, no, I don't really expect anyone to believe that, I'm just saying it anyway because, well, it's the truth, whether it's scummy-looking or not.

##Vote: Boron I guess now that I think of it again.

My initial reaction was that this was an opportunistic vote, but going through the ISO Kay did call out myself, Boron, Marth, kdanger, and FtP for "unhelpfulness to town". Of those people FtP and Boron were the only ones who were fairly active. That begs the question: @Kay, why did you choose Boron over FtP?

[Strege]

I implied no such thing. Ever.

I don't know if you meant to imply it but that's how I read it. You'll have to convince me that I read it incorrectly, because as it stands I understand your diffusion of Mancer's opinion but I don't understand how the words of your post do not assert your innocence based on poor logic.

I don't mean to be nitty or excessively confrontational here if that's how I'm coming across -- I tend to tighten up my language when I'm in unfamiliar waters, and this kind of scrutiny is kind of unfamiliar to me.

[Grassbridger]

Strege, not really sure what you're arguing with Boron about? Or whether you're arguing at all? I guess you're arguing because you say you need to be convinced of something, but you and Boron agree here: Shinori's "clear" of Boron does not make her more or less likely to be scum.

I see how the post you quoted above can be read the way you did, but I don't see how that's relevant. Boron has told you that you misinterpreted her post and she did not mean to imply what you think she did. Whose fault that is--yours for misunderstanding, or Boron's for not being clear--doesn't matter, unless you think that (a) Boron is lying or has changed her mind and (b) that (a) is somehow important.

I suggest you either drop this line or explain why it matters, given that you are now in agreement about the main point you're arguing over.

[Strege]

Strege, not really sure what you're arguing with Boron about? Or whether you're arguing at all? I guess you're arguing because you say you need to be convinced of something, but you and Boron agree here: Shinori's "clear" of Boron does not make her more or less likely to be scum.

I see how the post you quoted above can be read the way you did, but I don't see how that's relevant. Boron has told you that you misinterpreted her post and she did not mean to imply what you think she did. Whose fault that is--yours for misunderstanding, or Boron's for not being clear--doesn't matter, unless you think that (a) Boron is lying or has changed her mind and (b) that (a) is somehow important.

I suggest you either drop this line or explain why it matters, given that you are now in agreement about the main point you're arguing over.

I was not arguing that Boron was accidentally unclear but that she was trying to mislead. I do not understand why a townie would write what Boron wrote, but everyone else seems to so I'll keep trying to understand and drop the point until I can either convince everyone else or accept their point of view. In the mean time, ##Unvote because my case wasn't that strong in the first place and without this piece it doesn't justify a vote.

[Sunwoo]

I was not arguing that Boron was accidentally unclear but that she was trying to mislead. I do not understand why a townie would write what Boron wrote, but everyone else seems to so I'll keep trying to understand and drop the point until I can either convince everyone else or accept their point of view. In the mean time, ##Unvote because my case wasn't that strong in the first place and without this piece it doesn't justify a vote.

Actually, Strege, answer me this: why would a townie NOT write what I did? What makes it so difficult to believe that this is coming from town, and what do you think a townie SHOULD have said? How exactly am I supposed to convince you that you misinterpreted me if you don't like the way I phrased myself? How can I factually convince you that you saw an interpretation of my words that was not at all intended, if you're dead-set on believing otherwise? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to dislike my wording because you yourself would "tighten up your language" if you were in my situation.

How does my saying that scum!Shinori's "result" on me does not make me town or scum give off an implication that I'm innocent?

[Kay]

SB, you haven't posted yet this phase. Thoughts on Marth (has your opinion of him changed?) and what reads you got from the Shinori lynch.

Kay, why do you think that Elie might still be scum after the vig claim? When you stopped voting him, you didn't really say anything about it, which is kinda weird. If it was because the vig claim was so obvtown that you didn't want to lynch it, why are you still slightly suspicious of him? Otherwise if you were still kinda iffy on Elie even after the claim but didn't want to lynch him right then, then why not say something about it there?

I guess I wasn't very clear about still suspecting him, sorry. Vig claim was not obvtown IMO, if mafia had an extra kill or something or even if they didn't, it would be a not-terrible fake. I just didn't want to lynch him right then because provable role that would be expected to do something useful in any case.

Regarding Kay:

My initial reaction was that this was an opportunistic vote, but going through the ISO Kay did call out myself, Boron, Marth, kdanger, and FtP for "unhelpfulness to town". Of those people FtP and Boron were the only ones who were fairly active. That begs the question: @Kay, why did you choose Boron over FtP?

FtP is, and was, posting content that's just weird. His "unhelpfulness" is more of just doing things differently. Also, I wasn't calling them out exactly, I was just questioning why someone considered one of them more suspicious and/or unhelpful than the others.

[Strege]

Actually, Strege, answer me this: why would a townie NOT write what I did? What makes it so difficult to believe that this is coming from town, and what do you think a townie SHOULD have said? How exactly am I supposed to convince you that you misinterpreted me if you don't like the way I phrased myself? How can I factually convince you that you saw an interpretation of my words that was not at all intended, if you're dead-set on believing otherwise? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to dislike my wording because you yourself would "tighten up your language" if you were in my situation.

How does my saying that scum!Shinori's "result" on me does not make me town or scum give off an implication that I'm innocent?

My understanding is that it generally is not recommended for town to misrepresent situations to take suspicion off of themselves, which is what I feel you did when you applied a level of strategic thinking to Shinori's behaviour that I can't see him considering at the time. You could convince me that there was any other purpose for the last few sentences of your original post other than to assert your innocence -- there could be good reasons for that that I don't know about. Otherwise, I can't see an interpretation other than that in which you were asserting your innocence with an unqualified (and in my opinion weak) assumption.

I don't dislike your wording -- I am only suspicious of the grounds for the arguments you made. I qualified my language because I regret my own tendencies with language, not your own. What I meant is that I am sorry for speaking tersely.

As for your last sentence, this is where I specifically see the implication that you are unlikely to be scum based on the assumption that Shinori had a high level of strategic awareness at the time he posted:

"You don't want to tie yourself to your scum buddies like that. Even if you're going to argue "WIFOM", it's still a risky gambit that ties Shinori to me."

[BBM]

The thing is, that's really the only defence to an attack consisting of using Shinori's "clear" on Boron against her. If the attack had been something else and Boron had then responded using that as a defence, I could have seen your point, but she's basically obligated to make that defence if someone says "you're scum because Shinori faked a clear on you".

[Strege]

The thing is, that's really the only defence to an attack consisting of using Shinori's "clear" on Boron against her. If the attack had been something else and Boron had then responded using that as a defence, I could have seen your point, but she's basically obligated to make that defence if someone says "you're scum because Shinori faked a clear on you".

I can accept this. I'm sorry, to Boron and to everyone, for being so stubborn about what would have been a minor argument even if it was correct.

[scorri]

Baldrick has been subbed in for kdanger. Carry on as normal.

[Blitz]

first of all, I am not liking either the Psych or the Kay wagon

I am mainly not liking the Psych wagon because his wording on the first day (when he said he was redirected) showed that he had some kind of a role that tells him his target changed, which I am assuming is an info role.

The scum info role, Shinori died, so unless you are implying there is another info role to the mafia's side, get out of the Psych wagon imo

also Psych, can I ask you to out your original intended target for N0 if you do not mind?

as for the Kay wagon, I do not think she would ever defend a scum member like that if she was scum (unless that guy's name starts with P and ends with an O and has R,T and and another O in it)

moving on, Strege, why don't you tell me what is bad about my vote that supposedly followed yours and why yours was such a good vote to begin with

and also Strge, didn't you say you suspected Kay? (or am I mistaken? because that could be the case)

[Strege]

first of all, I am not liking either the Psych or the Kay wagon

I am mainly not liking the Psych wagon because his wording on the first day (when he said he was redirected) showed that he had some kind of a role that tells him his target changed, which I am assuming is an info role.

The scum info role, Shinori died, so unless you are implying there is another info role to the mafia's side, get out of the Psych wagon imo

also Psych, can I ask you to out your original intended target for N0 if you do not mind?

as for the Kay wagon, I do not think she would ever defend a scum member like that if she was scum (unless that guy's name starts with P and ends with an O and has R,T and and another O in it)

moving on, Strege, why don't you tell me what is bad about my vote that supposedly followed yours and why yours was such a good vote to begin with

and also Strge, didn't you say you suspected Kay? (or am I mistaken? because that could be the case)

Your questions are in reference to this post, right?

I meant that yours and Kay's votes followed mine very closely chronologically -- Boron had three votes on her before much discussion could occur. It looked like my vote was the beginning of a wagon, and my memory of the previous wagons was that they were either built up more slowly than that or exploded based on some apparent slip. Kay's post didn't justify her vote, which is weird, like I said. Going back at reading it now, I think I forgot about the second last paragraph of the post in which you voted for Boron -- considering the entirety of the post, your reasoning actually seems pretty solid and unique from mine, and there's the fact that you just got back to the thread. I take back saying that your vote was weird.

I knew my vote against Boron wasn't that strong in the first place and I was hoping it would prompt a response and some more material for reading her. I remembered someone saying that one's vote was a powerful tool for pressuring people to get better reads on them, and I figured another vote on Kay or Psych wouldn't accomplish much. Clearly, this didn't work out like I was hoping it would.

My opinions of Kay stated in that post more or less remain, but I'll tone down the "really suspicious" to a "somewhat suspicious" because I'm starting to think that I've been misreading her style of communication as scummy when it could mean something else or just be her way of speaking.

[MancerNecro]

Heads up, I'm going to be busy over the weekends but I'll try to post at least a few times.

I'm going to look over Shinori's lynch because I think that there might be bussing happening there. Particularly, I'm going to look for players who defended Shinori before attacking him opportunistically once he was near lynch point.

[scorri]

Votecount

Psych (5): Mancer, Marth, Elieson, Grassbridger, FtP

Kay (4): Boron, eclipse, BBM, Rein
Boron (1): Kay
FtP (1): SB
Marth (1): Blitz

Voteless (4): Baldrick, Slayer, Psych, Strege