SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[Jotari]

^^I don't think it's unreasonable to criticize from the perspective of a consumer. Don't disagree with whatever else you said, though.

They remade various stages from the first 5 NES games on the original Game Boy, plus Mega Man V which was a wholly original game. Also they remade the first game on the PSP. No other handheld games come to mind at the moment (oh right, Mega Man & Bass). I'd agree there aren't any stages that I can think off of the top of my head to use (actually a teleporter room where you could teleport to eight different stages or something would be really neat, but also probably too hard). However I can think of several more iconic handheld stages that are not a part of the original Mega Man series, which I'd prefer they'd use.

We have Gerudo Valley on the 3DS too meaning it's safe to say remakes count for stages too. Kalos Pokemon League is also a Wii U stage despite being from a 3DS game meaning it's not a set in stone rule that 3DS stages must be from handheld games and Wii U stages must be from console games.

[Florete]

To anyone throwing the allegations of laziness around, I quote Sakurai from E3 in rhetorically asking: Have YOU ever made a game?

That's like asking book critics if they've ever written a novel. That's a bad argument.

One doesn't need to know the process that goes into a product to be able to criticize it, and if a detail comes off as lazy, critics and consumers have every right to point it out.

Was it warranted here? The detail is small and hard to notice. Admittedly, when it was first brought up, I compared screenshots and thought Ana was right about it. It wasn't until SoC's comparison post that I noticed the detail really was there. But, had they been right, was it okay to call it "lazy?" Well, in a game where Lucina has the mark of Naga in her eye and the developers are going to such lengths as to give every character three choices for each special attack...yeah, it would be. Male Wii Fit Trainer doesn't have the same body as the female. If a standard is set and something goes below that standard, it can be considered lazy by comparison.

I don't think anyone was trying to say that Sakurai is being lazy with the entire game. Just that this one missed detail would have been lazy.

[BANRYU]

I don't think it's unreasonable to criticize from the perspective of a consumer. Don't disagree with whatever else you said, though.

That's like asking book critics if they've ever written a novel. That's a bad argument.

One doesn't need to know the process that goes into a product to be able to criticize it, and if a detail comes off as lazy, critics and consumers have every right to point it out.

Was it warranted here? The detail is small and hard to notice. Admittedly, when it was first brought up, I compared screenshots and thought Ana was right about it. It wasn't until SoC's comparison post that I noticed the detail really was there. But, had they been right, was it okay to call it "lazy?" Well, in a game where Lucina has the mark of Naga in her eye and the developers are going to such lengths as to give every character three choices for each special attack...yeah, it would be. Male Wii Fit Trainer doesn't have the same body as the female. If a standard is set and something goes below that standard, it can be considered lazy by comparison.

I don't think anyone was trying to say that Sakurai is being lazy with the entire game. Just that this one missed detail would have been lazy.

It's not the same. I'm definitely not saying is that someone who does not dabble in a craft cannot criticize others who do; they certainly can, and a lot of us do. The 'have YOU ever made a game' comment is less saying 'you've never done what I've done so you have no right to criticize me' and more 'you need to understand what you're talking about before you start criticizing it', much like SoC was saying.

If a book critic is making asinine criticisms of things like a book's length or whatever without knowledge or understanding of WHY the book is so long or why it's a problem, that is not a valid criticism, and the credibility of the critic SHOULD be called into question because this person probably just doesn't want to spend so much time reading or some shit-- it's a personal opinion being presented as an objective criticism (whereas if someone says a book is too long because it's full of filler or the plot drags too much or is too drawn-out etc, that can be a valid, subjective criticism).

When people call anything about a game like Super Smash Bros lazy without good, well-stated reasons, they are displaying complete ignorance and underappreciation for the medium itself as well as the people behind the game, same as with the book critic example I gave. These are the people whose asses I'll jump up to shut them up about it.

In the case of the nonsense about Robin's boobs or whatever, I just don't think that can be adequately justified, because the reason for criticism was wrong in the first place.

I hate to keep drawing out the topic of the character models and supposed laziness or whatever, but people making careless complaints about shit like this really bothers me. This game is TOO SOON into development for us to have any earnest, legitimate complaints with just yet, barring stuff that was in the demo-- and we know that even THAT's not final.

Edited July 24, 2014 by BANRYU

[Florete]

I hate to keep drawing out the topic of the character models and supposed laziness or whatever, but people making careless complaints about shit like this really bothers me. This game is TOO SOON into development for us to have any earnest, legitimate complaints with just yet, barring stuff that was in the demo-- and we know that even THAT's not final.

The game should be completely - or at least very nearly - done aside from minor tweaks by now, actually. The real reason we can't have serious complaints yet is because we haven't played the full game yet.

[Tryhard]

When people call anything about a game like Super Smash Bros lazy without good, well-stated reasons, they are displaying complete ignorance and underappreciation for the medium itself as well as the people behind the game, same as with the book critic example I gave.

Why specifically SSB, anyway? Plenty of games do get criticized for being "lazy".

This game is TOO SOON into development for us to have any earnest, legitimate complaints with just yet, barring stuff that was in the demo-- and we know that even THAT's not final.

Like RFoF said, if you are expecting major changes then I have a feeling that you're going to disappointed, as this is now late in the development process.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Tryhard

[Jotari]

Just because the full game is completed or near enough to it doesn't mean any of the pics we see and especially anything we see in the demo are part of the current up to date product.

[Tryhard]

Just because the full game is completed or near enough to it doesn't mean any of the pics we see and especially anything we see in the demo are part of the current up to date product.

While it's possible that's the case, from my experience that's a rather optimistic view to have, considering many games look the same after months of development while people defend that it's just an old build.

[Jotari]

While it's possible that's the case, from my experience that's a rather optimistic view to have, considering many games look the same after months of development while people defend that it's just an old build.

I wouldn't really say it's optimistic. Nothing really seems to change because nothing really needs changing. What they're choosing to show us is what they feel they are finished with. And there are plenty of times where trailers and prerelease screen shots show areas that are never visited in games or depict cutscenes in different places.

[Florete]

While it's possible that's the case, from my experience that's a rather optimistic view to have, considering many games look the same after months of development while people defend that it's just an old build.

Or look worse, like Watch_Dogs.

I wouldn't really say it's optimistic. Nothing really seems to change because nothing really needs changing. What they're choosing to show us is what they feel they are finished with. And there are plenty of times where trailers and prerelease screen shots show areas that are never visited in games or depict cutscenes in different places.

Maybe, but the idea that the game is anything but very late in development is absolutely wrong.

[Tryhard]

Or look worse, like Watch_Dogs.

I got burned on Rome II Total War, personally. But yes, Watch Dogs wasn't fantastic but I didn't pre-order it. Dark Souls II did that as well with the pre-release lighting system looking far better than the one in the game.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Tryhard

[Anacybele]

The Wii U version might not be quite complete yet since it won't be around until the holidays, but the 3DS version definitely is. It'll be in Japan in less than two months and then everywhere else a couple weeks later. And at this point, all they have to do is bug fixes and beta testing and all that stuff. So yeah, the game is pretty much complete now.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Anacybele

[Ema Skye]

They did it so that the models would be exactly the same.

If they went with the accurate Female Robin, her hurt box would be different so she wouldn't be an alternate costume.

[Jotari]

They did it so that the models would be exactly the same.

If they went with the accurate Female Robin, her hurt box would be different so she wouldn't be an alternate costume.

As it is already she's noticeably smaller.

[Anacybele]

They did it so that the models would be exactly the same.

If they went with the accurate Female Robin, her hurt box would be different so she wouldn't be an alternate costume.

If that was the case. the Wii Fit Trainers would have the same models too. Yet they obviously don't.

[shadowofchaos]

Maybe, but the idea that the game is anything but very late in development is absolutely wrong.

I think I said this in another thread...

Smash 3DS is coming out in two months in Japan. This is the post-production period. Fix minor tweaks and check for bugs, but way too late to remove and add different characters.

Unless of course, you want the game to be delayed.

To add onto this, the roster is FINAL at this point.

Games at the very least have to be absolutely finished an entire month before release due to the horrendous amount of crap they have to go through. And that's being GENEROUS.

Games have to be finished. Like "you can only fix bugs" only a certain time before copies are made.

There is that "we can fix a gamebreaking one" like what they did with Pokemon... but honestly roster and model changes have been out the window for a while now.

[kingddd]

Not only that, when the game is released, most of the developers have moved onto other projects. Assuming that your executives tell you that we want more post-game content, usually you're left with a significantly smaller team who probably won't have the same amount of man resource that they had a year or so ago. It happens a lot in software projects. It's why post-game DLC content usually have a lot of reused assets and maybe only a few new maps like in many online games.

It's why I'm not expecting any big DLC to occur unless they pull out a bombshell or something.

I still remember when I was doing my internship for one of our software projects our team consisted of at max 16 guys during heavy development. By the time of release, we only had 4 guys including myself just to maintain it. Other teams only had 1 or 2 guys.

Edited July 24, 2014 by kingddd

[Jave]

If that was the case. the Wii Fit Trainers would have the same models too. Yet they obviously don't.

But the properties and hitboxes in both WFTs are identical, which is what Palutena was referring to in her post regarding the two Robins.

[Anacybele]

But the properties and hitboxes in both WFTs are identical, which is what Palutena was referring to in her post regarding the two Robins.

I don't see how they couldn't have kept the hitboxes the same on the Robins with more model differences. The male Wii Fit Trainer clearly has a wider body than the female. Yet to me the Robins' bodies look exactly the same except for the heads.

[Florete]

They did it so that the models would be exactly the same.

If they went with the accurate Female Robin, her hurt box would be different so she wouldn't be an alternate costume.

If that was the case. the Wii Fit Trainers would have the same models too. Yet they obviously don't.

But the properties and hitboxes in both WFTs are identical, which is what Palutena was referring to in her post regarding the two Robins.

>Palutena suggests the models need to be the same for the same hitboxes.

>Ana points out that the WFTs have different models and the same hitboxes.

Thus, the Robins can have different models with the same hitboxes, which is what Ana was saying.

And the difference is there, Ana, it's just minor and hard to see in most screenshots. SoC's comparison showed it, though. In general, looking at the higher quality artwork makes it a lot easier to see.

[kingddd]

Heh at the last second. I would of laughed pretty hard if Megaman actually showed up as the victor.

Edited July 25, 2014 by kingddd

[Jotari]

Once again female Robin is shorter than male Robin. Either they have different hitboxes, female Robin will take damage form attacks an inch above her head or male Robin will have an inch on his model that isn't actually a hitbox. It might seem like it's not that big a difference but hit boxes are surprisingly accurate to models.

[Anacybele]

Well, true. But as Red Fox said, the differences are hard to see. I just don't see why female Robin couldn't have had more differences like the Wii Fit Trainers do.

[BANRYU]

The game should be completely - or at least very nearly - done aside from minor tweaks by now, actually. The real reason we can't have serious complaints yet is because we haven't played the full game yet.

Maybe, but the idea that the game is anything but very late in development is absolutely wrong.

You're absolutely right, and I completely misspoke when I said it was 'too early' in development. I think I was halfway into fixing that, but then closed the window or something and forgot to go back.

Yes, what I mean is that the game is too late in development to change anything, but it's too soon to formulate a lot of legitimate complaints about balancing and gameplay and whatnot, and too soon to complain about some things that aren't in the game yet (except Chrom, and his fans can get over it). But yes, you're right. That is what I was quite ineptly trying to say x__X

Why specifically SSB, anyway? Plenty of games do get criticized for being "lazy".

It's games that have a huge amount of carefully-crafted content in general. Some games are criticized for being lazy, and in some cases, that's fair because they ARE lazy. Games by studios like Data Design Interactive-- which created 3 games that were 100% identical save for their visual assets (and plenty flat and terrible aside)-- are rightly called lazy. And there are of course less extreme examples, like games with cheap difficulty, which can also be called lazy. But 'lazy' is not a word that I would ever think to use-- not lightly, anyway-- about any game in the Smash Bros. series. Just about the only instance I'd accuse any of them of being lazy was with some of Brawl's physics (like how the modified sizes from items like the mushrooms or Lightning are super wonky, and items now grow and shrink WITH you rather than staying the same size like they did in Melee), and its higher difficulty curves, which basically just up the odds against you to unfair levels... but even then I'm reluctant to call the game lazy because of all the other shit that went into it.

Do you get what I mean now?

Once again female Robin is shorter than male Robin. Either they have different hitboxes, female Robin will take damage form attacks an inch above her head or male Robin will have an inch on his model that isn't actually a hitbox. It might seem like it's not that big a difference but hit boxes are surprisingly accurate to models.

Since the height difference between their models isn't TOO extreme, maybe what they'll do is just have the hitbox be slightly in-between the two? Otherwise, I dunno. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Carter]

Heh at the last second. I would of laughed pretty hard if Megaman actually showed up as the victor.

Great battle. What makes it even better is that Zero Suit won!

Totally slayed Mega Man. Pit, however, seemed to be good fight against.

[Jotari]

You're absolutely right, and I completely misspoke when I said it was 'too early' in development. I think I was halfway into fixing that, but then closed the window or something and forgot to go back.

Yes, what I mean is that the game is too late in development to change anything, but it's too soon to formulate a lot of legitimate complaints about balancing and gameplay and whatnot, and too soon to complain about some things that aren't in the game yet (except Chrom, and his fans can get over it). But yes, you're right. That is what I was quite ineptly trying to say x__X

It's games that have a huge amount of carefully-crafted content in general. Some games are criticized for being lazy, and in some cases, that's fair because they ARE lazy. Games by studios like Data Design Interactive-- which created 3 games that were 100% identical save for their visual assets (and plenty flat and terrible aside)-- are rightly called lazy. And there are of course less extreme examples, like games with cheap difficulty, which can also be called lazy. But 'lazy' is not a word that I would ever think to use-- not lightly, anyway-- about any game in the Smash Bros. series. Just about the only instance I'd accuse any of them of being lazy was with some of Brawl's physics (like how the modified sizes from items like the mushrooms or Lightning are super wonky, and items now grow and shrink WITH you rather than staying the same size like they did in Melee), and its higher difficulty curves, which basically just up the odds against you to unfair levels... but even then I'm reluctant to call the game lazy because of all the other shit that went into it.

Do you get what I mean now?

Since the height difference between their models isn't TOO extreme, maybe what they'll do is just have the hitbox be slightly in-between the two? Otherwise, I dunno. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

It's probably more of a case of forgotten or untested piece of work than lazy but some of Snake's hitboxes in Brawl are hilariously misplaced. Someone, I think SoC posted an example a couple of dozen pages back. Could have jest been very lazy work though. But no harm done, it looks pretty funny and at least in my case I didn't notice it until someone pointed it out.