Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[Sunwoo]

hypocrisy is a scumtell to me and like I said, if that's the case then Eclipse should have just been more direct. I didn't say it to be rude or say it because I was pissed off or whatever, I think that hypocrisy in the context of mafia can really be a scumtell and please try to tone down because I'm starting to freak out a little.

Also, Boron, the difference between you and Eclipse is that Eclipse has been more focused on making these passing comments towards me than actually scumhunting, which isn't the same for you. You've been scumhunting more than she has.

Like I said, I'm going to let eclipse address your points, but I'm not purposely trying to freak you out with my tone or anything. I'm not mad at you or anything, this is just how I speak in mafia ;/

[Percivalé]

Also, like

I think another thing I meant to say was that there's a difference between REFUSING to explain yourself (Weapons, Eclipse) versus having a lot of trouble explaining yourself or being legitimately UNABLE to explain yourself (me). I'm trying my best and I know it's frustrating but this is the best I can do.

bed now. no more. don't make me explain more

[Paperblade]

I am pretty annoyed that people can write so much about their reads without explaining their reads.

[eclipse]

"We judge other people on their actions and ourselves by intent."

It's not about the same... because tbh I was just waiting to see if I'd feel better about you after the day progressed a little more, and I still don't. But now I know why.

See, let me try to explain how my vibes work. This is for everyone for future reference. My brain works off of patterns, and it doesn't just do this with mafia but that's something else for another time. It's not really the same as meta because these patterns are universal, so anywhere I play the same (or similar) patterns apply.

If someone is playing to a pattern that suggests they might be scum or antitown, I start getting feelings that I can't really explain, so I can't logically present a case on them. What you did, eclipse, was kinda dance around earlygame and comment on the game and explain things to the newer people while saying yourself you had null reads on everyone and that pinged me, so I wanted to know if that changed. You then proceeded to vote me, and that was fine to me at first, but then the bad feelings came back after you did a certain few things, which I will explain in my next post. I need to grab the material.

Patterns. Noted. That still sounds like meta to me, but instead of applying it on an individual basis, you're applying it universally. It's still the same thing (and this will also be the last I intend to say of it, because semantic battles are a goddamn waste of time). The null thing gets a gigantic eh from me, as that was made during RVS.

Btw Eclipse, I don't know if your suddenly passive-aggressive tone is annoyance at me or a reaction test or what, but I don't like it and I'd like to ask you to stop, please. I also find it hypocritical (in the context of the game) and therefore scummy, but I'll get to that in a sec.

It's called being irritated with your vibes, while illustrating WHY I'm irritated with you, in a way that I'm positive that you'll understand. Instead, you made a case out of it (which is better than stating vibes).

Anyway, here's why I'm getting scumvibes (again) from Eclipse:

#167 is the case on me that addresses my statement after Shinori's vote on Weapons:

I explained it and all that and it seemed to run all right with you and everything was fine. But then you say this in #224:

Not only is this statement vague in similar ways to my Weapons comment (kinda passive-aggressive, kinda not), it was really hasty? Eclipse automatically assumed that because I mentioned my vibes on her but not Manix that my Manix vibe randomly vanished. That reads as strangely defensive to me, which I can understand.

(part of the above didn't survive the Quote button, go read Bizz's original post for it)

I already explained this, and you didn't address that here. Why didn't you take it into account?

And now Eclipse's recent attitude towards me is making my scumread on her worse. It comes off as slightly paranoid and defensive.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

Do I sound like I care if I'm lynched? The game's been a long, drawn-out stalemate, with this being the first major skirmish. There WILL be reads from this. In other words, part of my intent is to make absolutely, positively certain that I don't read null at the end of this debacle, and you probably won't, either.

I feel like if Eclipse were town she might have just waited and kept on going until I felt better about her, because not only did I never place a vote on her but I didn't even have a logical case to present on her and even stated publicly stated this (#261). Instead, she's been making multiple passing comments at me about it and a couple of irritated statements that suggests she's more concerned about it than she honestly really should be, because there isn't a wagon on her and if I remember correctly I'm either the only person or one of a few that doesn't think she's town. Also ~meta~ but Eclipse is generally more reserved than this, so it bothers me.

What I have are too many null reads, none of which are your fault. It sounds like your emotions, NOT your logic is driving this, because I see nothing about what I said; rather, I see a bunch of comments about how I made you feel. Now, do you have anything to say based off of what reads I have stated? Also, your meta is upside-down. Think about this for a moment: What do I have to gain by being super-pissy and snippy as mafia?

(yes, yes, your intent vs. my perception; I can't say for certain what the former is, so you get the latter instead)

And I can understand maybe she's just irritated at me but if she were irritated at me I would think she'd try to be more direct about it. I dunno.

How to tick off eclipse: Presuppose her mindset, and what she should do. If it wasn't glaringly obvious with Shinori earlier, I don't like it when players tell me what I should and shouldn't do in a mafia game.

I also can't tell if she thinks that I'm scum or not. She seemed somewhat satisfied after unvoting me before (and this read to me as town because that's something she usually does as town, votes someone & attempts to get an explanation out of them). However, #270 suggests that she still doesn't think that I'm town (ftr I am Wallcarb's townread), but I can't tell if this means she thinks I'm scum or that I'm just a null read or what.

This is probably your strongest argument. I felt that you were using your vibes to cover for your lack of logic, which I felt was slightly scummy. Now that you have explained yourself, I think that your emotions are getting the better of you. In this case, the emotion itself is a null tell. The fact that you took the time to attempt to explain your vibes moves you to a very tentative ever-so-slight town read. This is better than the pile of null reads I'm still sitting on. I honestly hope I don't have to go through all of this to extract reads out of people.

This also means that you'll spend less time in future games saying "vibes", and more time explaining yourself (I hope), thus making things go faster.

I can't tell if Eclipse being hypocritically passive-aggressive and vague is an attempt to teach me how to be more clear/an attempt to finally get a case out of me (which, if it is, please stop because this kind of thing makes me legitimately uncomfortable), or if this is genuinely how she's acting and atm I think it's scummy either way because I really feel like town wouldn't act this way over some weird vibes. As I stated before, it feels paranoid and defensive to me.

I hope none of this reads as emotional because I'm not upset or anything, I just have a weird kind of tone sometimes and it reads as emotional to people when I don't mean it to be. I think I just get really passionate/into my arguments sometimes.

So, in a nutshell:

- Eclipse, do you think I'm town or scum? Why are you acting the way you are towards me? Was it just a reaction test or something? (And could you please maybe tone it down?)

I didn't like how you couldn't explain yourself, because it's impossible to argue against "vibes", and it also discourages interaction (well, you have a bad feeling, now what?) This game is now going somewhere, even if it is me at the center of it - I don't mind, as I think I'm equally useful dead or alive (hell, Shinori's role makes me more useful lynched). Now that you've gone through the process of explaining yourself, that means you should be able to do the same for Manix/Paperblade/other vibes, and hopefully in a shorter time span. This, in turn, will give them time to respond, which helps the rest of the game develop reads on both you and them.

Whether or not I do anything will be determined by the game flow. I hope there's more than a poke battle after I get back from work tomorrow.

Grassbridger, you get the next post.

Paperblade: That should say something about those reads, no?

[Percivalé]

no I haven't gone to bed yet sorry

Eclipse, what I'm trying to say is if you really wanted me to explain my "vibes" faster than I did, you really should have been more direct. No, this isn't about emotion, I use 'feel' verbs a lot. And please do not test me like that. Please. please please don't test me like that. It makes my brain think you're assuming a superior position over me and sometimes I have issues playing games with you because of that. I can talk to you about this privately after the game ends but I wanted to see what you had to say before I went to bed.

I still don't know if you think I'm town or scum btw.

[eclipse]

Weapons is full of BS and I assumed that his 15/2 joke wasn't actually accusing me or Shinori of anything. I'll continue to assume that until he's helpful at all.

Eclipse's response to Bizz's forthcoming case on her is troubling to me. Townies should focus on scumhunting, and if they have to defend themselves, that's regrettable because it means someone is going after the wrong person. Eclipse being intrigued by having to defend herself? Doesn't seem to come from a pro-town mindset. I find it scummy, along with a general pattern of an odd tone in her interaction with Bizz.

##Vote: Eclipse

Refa: Shinori's role is (apparently) that he gets info on the number of scum on each day's lynch wagon. It's a protown role but I think it'd be a stretch to call him confirmed town.

pedit: cut by Bizz, I agree with most of that stuff on Eclipse

This tells me that you think that Bizz is town. This also tells me that you don't want to be lynched (this is D1, I have no information save my role PM and the guarantee that this isn't MYLO; the odds of all wagons being on scum during this time is astronomically low). I have no issues with being today's lynch target, assuming I can get as many people commenting on me as possible ('cause I intend on making Shinori prove himself, and this is the best way I can think of to draw people). I only see me in that quote, so I'm also going to assume that you have no other reads on anyone else. If your strongest read is what you think my mindset is, then I think your case holds no water.

Now, that mindset that townies shouldn't be interested in cases against them has my attention. I can draw reads from what people say to me, and in lieu of any other interesting things going on, I'd rather do that than sit around and wait for someone else to make the first move. Skirmishes without real cases benefits the mafia more than the town - it gives the mafia the appearance of contributing, without really drawing attention to themselves. By forcing attention, I can generate my reads, and the town can comment on me. If I get lynched, no big deal; Shinori will make me useful.

So, for someone who thinks that wanting to defend oneself is scummy, as well as the implied principle of "I don't want to be lynched". . .you have my curiosity.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grassbridger

Why are you so convinced that wanting a good case to defend against is scummy? And why so hesitant about being lynched?

[Percivalé]

oh nvm the last point, I know it now

Look, don't assume that my emotions are getting the better of me just because I sound like it. I kept trying to explain that too but I didn't know how. Don't tell me things like that because it discourages me from participating in games, my tone just sounds naturally emotional and I don't know what to do about it.

Paperblade is saying more general things and one-liners than scumhunting btw, the most memorable thing about him is his discussion wrt Shinori's role. ##Unvote ##Vote: Paperblade

[eclipse]

no I haven't gone to bed yet sorry

Eclipse, what I'm trying to say is if you really wanted me to explain my "vibes" faster than I did, you really should have been more direct. No, this isn't about emotion, I use 'feel' verbs a lot. And please do not test me like that. Please. please please don't test me like that. It makes my brain think you're assuming a superior position over me and sometimes I have issues playing games with you because of that. I can talk to you about this privately after the game ends but I wanted to see what you had to say before I went to bed.

I still don't know if you think I'm town or scum btw.

Aren't you sick or something? Staying up late does no favors to your immune system.

Okay, you have issues with superiority. Keep in mind that this is a GAME, and that I get as much information as my role PM allows. I can prod all I want, but that's it - my power is in my words alone. This is D1, so any night roles haven't had a chance to go off. In other words, I can't be superior to you, nor do I think I am. In the context of every game that I sign up for, I am Just Another Player, and that won't change (ever). I say what's on my mind, because this is the best benefit I can give to the town.

Now, I will quote myself (last sentence removed because it had nothing to do with my read on you). You tell me how you interpret this paragraph, preferably after a good night's sleep.

This is probably your strongest argument. I felt that you were using your vibes to cover for your lack of logic, which I felt was slightly scummy. Now that you have explained yourself, I think that your emotions are getting the better of you. In this case, the emotion itself is a null tell. The fact that you took the time to attempt to explain your vibes moves you to a very tentative ever-so-slight town read.

[eclipse]

oh nvm the last point, I know it now

Look, don't assume that my emotions are getting the better of me just because I sound like it. I kept trying to explain that too but I didn't know how. Don't tell me things like that because it discourages me from participating in games, my tone just sounds naturally emotional and I don't know what to do about it.

Paperblade is saying more general things and one-liners than scumhunting btw, the most memorable thing about him is his discussion wrt Shinori's role. ##Unvote ##Vote: Paperblade

Then keep trying. You'll get it sooner or later, and I will gladly tell you what I think of your progress. Explaining yourself is a skill, no different than playing DDR.

Failure does not make you a bad person - it makes you human, and isn't that what we all are?

[Percivalé]

I'm sorry, it's just kinda how my anxiety works. The action just subconsciously triggers stuff despite the intent behind it.

I saw your point btw, sorry, I had missed it while getting to the middle of the post. Also you're doing meta things that are making me feel better about you and that's why I moved my vote.

[Percivalé]

Also I'm sorry but if you test me like that again I can't guarantee a response to it. I don't like that stuff.

anyway, good night.

[eclipse]

Also I'm sorry but if you test me like that again I can't guarantee a response to it. I don't like that stuff.

anyway, good night.

Whether I need to do that again or not depends on the game. I refuse to make a promise I may not be able to keep.

Get well soon

[Grassbridger]

This tells me that you think that Bizz is town. This also tells me that you don't want to be lynched (this is D1, I have no information save my role PM and the guarantee that this isn't MYLO; the odds of all wagons being on scum during this time is astronomically low). I have no issues with being today's lynch target, assuming I can get as many people commenting on me as possible ('cause I intend on making Shinori prove himself, and this is the best way I can think of to draw people). I only see me in that quote, so I'm also going to assume that you have no other reads on anyone else. If your strongest read is what you think my mindset is, then I think your case holds no water.

Now, that mindset that townies shouldn't be interested in cases against them has my attention. I can draw reads from what people say to me, and in lieu of any other interesting things going on, I'd rather do that than sit around and wait for someone else to make the first move. Skirmishes without real cases benefits the mafia more than the town - it gives the mafia the appearance of contributing, without really drawing attention to themselves. By forcing attention, I can generate my reads, and the town can comment on me. If I get lynched, no big deal; Shinori will make me useful.

So, for someone who thinks that wanting to defend oneself is scummy, as well as the implied principle of "I don't want to be lynched". . .you have my curiosity.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grassbridger

Why are you so convinced that wanting a good case to defend against is scummy? And why so hesitant about being lynched?

Where did you get I don't want to be lynched? From the Weapons comment, I presume? First, that was in response to Euklyd, who was demanding answers of Weapons who I think was joking. And second, the difference between me bringing up Weapons' offhand comment about me in response to a third player and you being intrigued by the possibility of defending yourself against Bizz... it's huge. Personally, in your position, I might have called Bizz out on "your scumread is just vibes, can you elaborate?" and if that didn't work, called BS. But that's not the same as "hmm, I look forward to seeing your case, should be interesting."

I don't like being lynched--I don't think anyone really does--but I think you're WAY over-reading into my post. "Why so hesitant about being lynched?" is basically you fabricating a case against me out of thin air, and moreover one that makes me sound scummy without actually having done anything scummy. Same thing with "why are you so convinced..." You're misrepping me hard here, I don't think my posts have been strong enough to appear "so convinced" about anything. This seems pretty suspicious to me, makes me want to leave my vote on you.

I don't see why you're saying you're OK with being lynched. Either you're town and you should be trying to lynch scum, or vice versa. (Or you're ITP, but whatever, the point is, a lynch of your own alignment is always bad and you're definitely your own alignment.) Shinori can prove himself no matter who the lynch is, no?

[Paperblade]

What is everyone's thoughts on a Day 1 Massclaim combined with Shinori's role to break the game?

[Refa]

Let's do it.

[Grace]

can I throw a few things out there before we get too ingrained in the massclaim idea

1) his claimed role, while strong as fuck, can easily be faked as scum (funny that) and can "clear" scum with the right result fake.

2) i see a number of people assuming shinori is town from role alone. why? (if you want my opinion, i'm nullreading him rn because role =/= alignment)

3) I'd argue that the people that seem to be all too sure of shinori being town are more likely scum. paper/eclipse/refa/and whoever else i've missed, 11pm posting too stronk

4) massclaiming outs protective roles anyway (prime kill/hook targets), which puts our investigative roles at risk. also consider chances are (I would damn hope) that massclaim won't break the game.

that be me take on this fishy massclaim business, mateys.

[Grace]

and the moment anyone takes a stab at me for putting a blanket statement over people as per point 3) above, know that I will drill into you for it later (the key point is "most likely", which is not to say they are definite scumreads, but eyes are being kept)

[Grace]

in fact paper i particularly want you to answer around my first post. also, on top of that, why would you suggest a massclaim, given shinori is far from confirmed town?

[Grace]

now i am sleep

but i feel like i'm finding something here, pending answers

[MRDRHAWK]

It's only Dat 1 and we're already jumping right to massclaims? Hoo boy.

I'll post a lynch vote when I've read through the last little bit.

[Percivalé]

i'm Awake

I thought about it and the issue with what Eclipse did is that she purposely messed with my scumread on her to make a point, which isn't good play to me imo. If she hadn't staged all of that I might have eventually felt better about her but she purposely acted scummy to push me into making a case on her which is unnecessary and for mental health reasons if she does anything like that again in this game I'm subbing out.

I also don't have the energy to make as big a case on anyone else now because of that, but one of the biggest reasons I voted Paperblade is that I really don't remember much that he's done aside from the Wallcrab vote and he is Very Involved in Shinori's role and that feels off to me.

I want to say Manix attempting to discredit Shinori bothers me too, but I think wrt Manix I'll wait for flips since I can't get a super solid read on him.

[Grassbridger]

I agree with Manix, massclaiming seems like a really bad idea for outing protective roles and probably not going to help to much. Paper, why did you suggest that?

Actually, on reread, Paper has exactly one sentence about his reads, where he votes Wallcrab and says why. He's said a lot of stuff about Shinori's role. That, coupled with a weird suggestion and a reread of the Eclipse-Viata snit at a non-4-am time that makes me less confident of my Eclipse vote, leads to

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

[Percivalé]

That is the second time Grassbridger has followed my vote and I'm not sure what to think of that. lol

[Percivalé]

But yeah Paperblade is just really unmemorable and hasn't done much actual scumhunting and that's unusual for him

[Grassbridger]

Once again cut by Bizz... I agree with him again except art Manix, I think his points about Shinori were valid.