Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[The Objection!]

Time for stuff.

First for the question everyone's been asking: Why did I vote for Proto and not Elieson or SB. (Keep in mind that this was up to the end of D1)

Elieson was never very scummy IMO. Sure, his Strege vote wasn't the best but that's all I got on him. One more thing to keep in mind

And at the time of his vote, the votals were very close and Elie was even leading

Elieson (7) - eclipse, NekoRex, Bluedoom, BigBangMeteor, Kay, Strege, Paperblade

NekoRex, the inactive. Bluedoom who thought his vote was still on Proto. Eclipse, who wasn't there for phase end. Strege, who was only aware of his vote on Elie minutes before Phase End. Kay, hasn't posted since 24th October. Paper is the only one who was voting Elie for finding him scummy, and I refuse to support such a wagon.

As for SB, you backstabber. I never got what was scummy about him. And he has a good role. I didn't see a reason to support his lynch.

Now as for my current scum reads:

Bearclaw's not off the grid yet, he's still flip-flopping all over the place which I do not like. For example:

Unsure whether I'd like him or SB more because SB's content post looks townie (imo) and makes several good points.

And yet you were still voting SB at the point, wat?

Kind of agree with BBM's case on Shinori, that is a bit weird on Shinori's part.

@BBM: That's what I would normally do, but after being suspected for misrepping people so many times, I decided to put the last bit.

@Refa:

Also reads wise, mine are still the same as they were yesterday, with the notable exception that yes, I am finding Objection to be scummier. In addition to what BBM said, I don't like how he was rallying people to vote for Proto to save Paper's role. Thinking back though, I can see it being the actions of a misguided townie (I know I've made several such mistakes in the past), so it's more of something that bothers me because I already have a scum read on him rather than the basis of it.

What gave you the impression? When did you have a scumread on me before?

@Bluedoom: I was worried that the mods would think that I switched my vote to Elie even though it was a joke. Silly me.

Also,

Also I want to talk to SB on IRC tonight, make it happen BBM

Posted by Paperblade mentioned SB and BBM, all 3 are voting me. I detect a conspiracy. jk

More's coming up later when it's not so late.

[eclipse]

(these pictures are way the hell too big ;/ )

Town leader analysis:

- organized night actions

- sorts out scum through PoE

- tends to kill the day phase, unless the rest of the town is motivated

- mass persuade may dissuade people from voting who they want to, if they feel that their vote will be moved

Well, the downside can be combated by a motivated town, SO, let's fix that.

Why would scum do that (rally for a mislynch) though? Scum should avoid getting tied to mislynches.

Scum does whatever it takes to win the game, so I don't see the point of trying to meta them unless you're scum and trying to get attention off of your buddies. This also doesn't take into account the shenanigans of D1.

On reread, Grassbridger's content is slightly better towards phase end, though in this post, I read waffling on Elieson. Not too happy with scum meta, but it's nowhere near as bad as what bearclaw posted (Paperblade's role had already been proven). The worst I'm getting off of Objection is his use of the word "misrep", which seems like he's being self-conscious about how he presents himself. I think bearclaw is worse for asking Elieson about his target, because that's none of the former's business. However, bearclaw has enough to answer for, so. . .

##Vote: Shinori

According to this, he has kirsche listed as his next strongest scum read after Boron, but this is the only place where I see a mention of kirsche. If I am reading the second link right, Shinori's suspicion of kirsche is an associative read, during a time when no one has flipped. His tone throughout the game has been uncharacteristically passive, as well (this doesn't mean that you need to scream at people; read what I've written about everyone else as reference).

[Percivalé]

votals coming in a few minutes

[Strege]

The problem I have with you is that you were being pushy about an opinion which I found forced and then dropped it completely, showing a lack of conviction. I can't see why you can't be accused of all three at once.

// What in my original comment sounded pushy to you, or implied that I had more to say at that point?

Your stance on BBM was like "This is what I think but I'm in over my head so maybe I'm wrong" which is waffling. I never used the term before this game I guess, but there's multiple ways of saying what I think.

// It was my opinion, and I explained the reason why I was soliciting advice with my inexperience. I didn't say that I would change or discard my opinion just because someone said I was wrong without explaining themselves. I don't see this as waffling, but more importantly (and ignoring the buzzword for clarity) I don't understand why it is scummy.

There was nothing to say about yoru comments on Rein and Elie, much like I found nothing to say wrt PB's Boron vote.

@Italics: The original complaint came from the fact that you can talk in depth about more than one person. Of course, if you're busy with life then you don't have time, and I realised this and made it clear that I wanted you to expand on your other opinions more than getting a response wrt Refa.

// 'kay... I can see the alternative thought processes on this, but I still don't like the way you put our arguments to rest on your terms.

You do realise that you were, and are, my second highest scum read right? You are entirely right that the main thing that stopped me from voting you is meta that I formed in Musical Chairs, right now Proto is worse though. You're "super scummy" opinion is why you're in second place and not fourth.

// What does meta explain away for you? I only understood it as absolving me of my lack of conviction. My problem with the BBM thing right now is that you're taking a short comment I made in RVS on the only noteworthy topic and characterizing it as a 60-second-crusade.

"Nothing glaring at least" implies that I have read through and can't find anything obviously scummy. It means that there might be something more, but I can't see what it is so please elaborate.

// I read this more threateningly but I suppose this could be a difference of writing styles so I'll drop this.

What do you make of his SB argument?

// Actually, it doesn't look good. I must have misremembered SB's content because he actually does explain his vote, and bearclaw being inattentive here doesn't make sense -- it looks like he's shrugging off SB's vote and applying pressure to confuse the issue.

Strege: No conviction in his own opinion wrt BBM and parked Refa for something which shouldn't have even been a reason to vote.

// You disagree with my point on Refa and ignore my other comments, and find I lack conviction on PAGE THREE ARE YOU SERIOUS THO. I think this is a really scummy argument.

Alright, I've finally done my reread (that wasn't so long now, was it?) and I would ##Unvote ##Vote: Elieson for making long walls of text which was a pain to read. Except not really.

@Strege

Yes please, link to the post.

In my experience, fishing is usually meant to look innocuous. You can't go really over-the-top to get information and then pass it off as nothing when someone asks you why you wanted that information.

Maybe I'm not quite sure what you meant. I wasn't entirely sure if you were complaining about me having not commented on something in my post, or reading the thread without posting later in the day. I assumed the latter, and was annoyed by this because I was going to post but things happened irl and I didn't have time after all. And, well, everyone's playing time is limited, it's just a matter of how much.

What wagon am I talking about regarding who? Eli jumping on an easy wagon? I was referring to bearclaw. And, that's because Bear did a lot of stuff that was crazy but I think it could just be noobtown. I said the things that were suspicious about the others, if you think my suspicions aren't strong enough or don't have enough basis, you should be more specific instead of just saying I haven't said enough.

Sorry, I meant that you pointed out SB's contradictions and then voted him but without giving any comment on his other content. I think he had enough at that point that you could have found something to say, but to me it just read as "hey, here's reason enough to justify a vote". You don't talk about him in your two content posts afterward either despite maintaining your vote which is really strange. I'm sure it's changed by now, but your opinion of bearclaw in this post combined with your previous comments on him honestly confuses me. I really want to see an ordered list of scumreads from you so that I have a better idea of where your reads are in relation to each other.

Strege > Shinori > Boron >> Elie

Saving something nice for Strege when he gets online :)

Think that's all I wanted to say.

OMINOUS. I should be at least near a computer for most of today so come@mebro.

And yes I'm finally caught up, and he's what else bothers me:

- A lot of eclipse's criticisms have been based on the shallowness of certain people's content. I wouldn't have a problem with this if I didn't find that is was the case for so many of her scumreads -- it's just two steps forward from "this person doesn't have many reads" and it seems lacklustre for so many of her reads to be like that at this stage of the game. Other arguments are based more on tone and not enough on relative crumminess of arguments for my comfort. Mildly scummy. (ninja'd: Shinori vote breaks this pattern but I'm still kind of wary about her).

- Numberwang seems to have instilled some voting apathy in general but bearclaw bothers me more that anyone -- he seems to have been fairly active at the time and yet only talking about who of the 2-3 lynch candidates, whereas other people made use of the time to talk about other reads. His arguments against Proto and SB are super weak too.

- Refa has more content now and I'm having trouble finding fault with it, so I'll categorize him as NULL but on the scummier side of it because GUT and aforementioned shady characteristics that apparently nobody agrees with. Oh well. #yolo

kirsche > Kay > bearclaw > eclipse

After some thought I think Kay goes above bearclaw because while some of the marks against bearclaw could be explained by genuine apathy I have a harder time explaining away Kay's slipperiness.

##Vote: kirsche

BBM something I forgot to say in OC is to remember WHEN certain events occur regarding what I told you. If you don't understand what I'm saying then forget it for now. The rest is still in effect anyway.

[eclipse]

(seriously, who the hell needs a 4000 x 4000 picture of an exclamation point?)

Strege, does this take into account my last post? I can FINALLY explain myself today, even if I think my previous ISO was a PITA to read.

[Percivalé]

Levotals

Objection (3) - BBM, Paperblade, SB

SB (3) - Reinfleche, Elieson, kirsche

Bearclaw (2) - Refa, j00

Shinori (2) - Bluedoom, eclipse

Kirsche (1) - Strege

Not Voting (8): Grassbridger, Bearclaw, Kay, NekoRex, Objection, Rocker64, Boron, Shinori

(seriously, who the hell needs a 4000 x 4000 picture of an exclamation point?)

some people just really need to Make A Point. like warning signs

Edited October 26, 2013 by The Best SK

[charlie_]

I can be on at basically any time during the day for the next week as long as you give me some notice for the IRC thing.

also i forgot rocker was playing lmao

where did these come from neither of you have even mentioned him in this game

are everyone just sheeping BBM or what I don't get it these are kind of horrible

I already said I didn't like him and I agreed with BBM's case on him.

Objection's last post bugs me a lot. About half of it is basically spent saying he didn't get why me or Eli were scummy. His point against DA BEAR is essentially echoed from Elieson except he actually got the quote right, and I nothing else in the post is actually about his scumreads, aside from saying he agrees with it. That's two lines or something of scumhunting. The rest is defending himself or him joking around. He's really not making me feel any better about him.

Agree with what eclipse said in response to DA BEAR in her last post pedit except it isn't any more but it's a pretty recent one. It feels like he's just trying to use WIFOM to disqualify people's suspicions on Objection. This thing bugs me too, it's his comment on Proto.

10. Proto, BBM's statements here are how I'm feeling about him basically. Not ready to say he's scum but he's definitely looking worse than most.

He's basically sheeping BBM here (who he was scumreading apparently for most of the game before that) and I don't really feel any conviction in this comment. It feels like he doesn't really want to call Proto scum because he's scared of the repercussions of Proto flipping town. Also apparently he's still scumreading me but hasn't laid down a vote or anything yet or really reevaluated any of my content since I started to get more active. It feels like he's just saying "oh yeah, SB is still scummy" but not really putting any effort into it.

I don't really see Rein having any scumreads other than me apart from saying bearclaw and Objection had "atrocious recent posts". Care to elaborate on those?

Strege's points on Kay are good and I think I've already explained that I agreed with them yesterday.

I don't think Elieson or kirsche are actually voting for me.

[Strege]

Strege, does this take into account my last post? I can FINALLY explain myself today, even if I think my previous ISO was a PITA to read.

Your vote on Shinori seems okay -- I don't find it super convincing myself because I don't really value the tone part, but the point about his kirsche read being poorly-justified seems fine and original. You still seem a little preoccupied with How to Play Mafia in that you're doing a lot of pointing out people's uses of meta, fishing, self-consciousness, laziness, or whathaveyou while not really digging into people's arguments and reads. For example, you called Grass out for nitpicking on Boron but didn't say if you thought the argument itself was good or not. I guess the best way I can articulate this actually is that it seems like you're pointing out flaws as they come but I haven't gotten the impression that you've going backward in the thread in an effort to point out scummy inconsistencies or patterns, which is a big part of scumhunting. Like I said, your Shinori vote does make more connections which is the main reason I like it.

[scorri]

So, only people who knew about my role were Paperblade and BBM. The only reason they would have for shooting me would be WIFOM. So it's less likely they're scum, but I suppose it's possible. That's about all I have for reads, sorry, I'm not especially motivated to reread 26 pages....

[eclipse]

How to Play Mafia is "What Are You Doing Mafia", which is my way of comprehending people's actions based on motives. If I see something that I don't like logically, I'll bring it up. Its absence should say something about how I'm reading people. In Grassbridger's case, I didn't agree with how he was going about his scumhunting. Thus, even if he came to a conclusion that I agreed with, it wouldn't be for any reason that I agreed with. For the post in question. . .I didn't think Boron was faking her emotion. However, trying to prove whether someone was faking emotion logically is an exercise in futility.

I want to see where you think I fished, and how you came to that conclusion.

[Strege]

I want to see where you think I fished, and how you came to that conclusion.

I meant that to read as "you are pointing out uses of meta, pointing out fishing, etc". Also I don't have a problem with pointing out bad logic but it should never stop there, and I feel like a bunch of your arguments stop a little short. (e.g. You vote Grass based on him nitpicking and agreeing with people but don't really comment on his other content, and criticize my meta while not commenting on my non-meta arguments). It strikes me as oddly unmotivated, not to play, but to find scum, which is my issue.

[eclipse]

This is going in circles, and I get the feeling that you didn't read my last wall of a post.

[Paperblade]

I'm currently asking Prims about a couple game mechanics, might have a lead on something

[Strege]

This is going in circles, and I get the feeling that you didn't read my last wall of a post.

The fact that I like your arguments against Shinori and Grass now does not invalidate my observations of your play over the course of the game, but I don't think this discussion is going much of anywhere either. I found your previous arguments somewhat sparsely supported but I don't think that diving into old stuff at this point is likely to be constructive. If your PR was any large part of the problem as you've indicated then it shouldn't continue to ping me.

[Elieson]

Unless I'm persuaded, I'm voting for JSNDBEAR. Bizzu?

Scorri what do you think of the proto wagon? Just analyze that for now.

Also I'm at work and we are super short staffed tonight, so ill be pretty much out for another 5 hours.

[Percivalé]

Levotals

Objection (3) - BBM, Paperblade, SB

Bearclaw (3) - Refa, j00, Elieson

Shinori (3) - Bluedoom, eclipse, kirsche

SB (2) - Reinfleche, kirsche

Kirsche (1) - Strege

Not Voting (8): Grassbridger, Bearclaw, Kay, NekoRex, Objection, Rocker64, Boron, Shinori

corrected votals--edited for SB's correction, I'm not sure how I missed those tbh Edited October 26, 2013 by The Best SK

[charlie_]

kirsche is also voting Shinori.

[Elieson]

Marth should re-read my case on JSND btw.

Also maybe it's just the pressure of yesterday being as crazy as it was for me but I find Objections Proto vote justified now that it's explained

[Paperblade]

Unofficial votecounts from Bear when I rotated the board - http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43778&p=2698526

Proto (4) - kirsche, BigBangMeteor, Bluedoom, Grassbridger

Official votecounts - see OP

Proto (4) - kirsche, Grassbridger, Serious Bananas, Elieson

Proto (5) - kirsche, Grassbridger, Serious Bananas, Elieson, bearclaw13

Proto (7) - kirsche, Grassbridger, Serious Bananas, Elieson, bearclaw13, Objection, BigBangMeteor

Proto (9) - kirsche, Grassbridger, Serious Bananas, Elieson, bearclaw13, Objection, BigBangMeteor, Boron, Shinori

Proto (8) - kirsche, Grassbridger, Serious Bananas, Elieson, bearclaw13, Objection, BigBangMeteor, Shinori

Proto (10) - kirsche, Grassbridger, Serious Bananas, Elieson, bearclaw13, Objection, BigBangMeteor, Shinori, Boron, Boron L-1!

Proto wagon evolution via votecounts

Bear and Shinori were both on people that I moved up, but switched. Will need to double check this.

inclined to think kirsche+grass are town, BBM returned later in the day, Marth wasn't around iirc

Still waiting on Prims or another host to answer my questions

[eclipse]

Missed this. Shame on me.

I'm don't like Paper (and others, mind) only wanting to lynch Proto to maintain his role. We should prioritize lynching mafia over anything like that. Bear and Objection's most recent posts are particularly atrocious because it's a bad mindset to designate a wagon as "lynch this guy if you don't think one of these 3 is mafia even if you don't find him scummy just for one guy's role". It's just a really easy vote for scum to make. If we do lynch Proto we definitely need to take an extensive look at the votes for him over the course of the day.

This sounds like Rein didn't think Proto was mafia, yet didn't do anything to defend his read. If Bear/Objection were bad enough to be mentioned, then why was your vote stuck on Bananas?

[Rocker64]

>Page 26

Well shit, that is hell of a lot to read.

So yea I'm here. I'll have to catch up the like 13 or so pages I missed first though.

[Strege]

kirsche's case on Boron seems bad to me also, particularly in post 245. He criticized her for suggesting GB take tonal arguments with a grain of salt, which is not a really unreasonable criticism, but does so by saying that she's encouraging GB to use meta and then strawmans it by taking it to a conceptual extreme. kirsche then says to eclipse that he doesn't understand why meta is a bad thing? kirsche never really comments on Boron's positions, just her tone. Particularly after the initial comment to PB that there was nothing "glaring" in Boron's content, (which I said I was dropping, but seems relevant again) this complete focus on her tone seems like an excuse to scumread her.

If you suspect Boron because you think she is defending herself too much then why not question her about reads or something? Saying someone is being too defensive on its own is a trap because just about any response to it is automatically bad by virtue of being a response.

[Zkirsche]

I can't post.

[Zkirsche]

Hang on wtf.

Is it because my post is too long?

[Zkirsche]

Prims can we have official votals?

What in my original comment sounded pushy to you, or implied that I had more to say at that point?

It's not about having more to say, it's about how you said it. I've already explained why I think you were being unusually protective of BBM.

It was my opinion, and I explained the reason why I was soliciting advice with my inexperience. I didn't say that I would change or discard my opinion just because someone said I was wrong without explaining themselves. I don't see this as waffling, but more importantly (and ignoring the buzzword for clarity) I don't understand why it is scummy.

It's because instead of holding to your convictions, you're willing to bend to whatever other people are saying, which is something scum often like to do to try and seem town.

My problem with the BBM thing right now is that you're taking a short comment I made in RVS on the only noteworthy topic and characterizing it as a 60-second-crusade.

It's not the only noteworthy topic though. We have the whole thing with Refa as an obvious counterexample and I can't help but feel that you only find me scummy for finding you scummy, which is an obvious OMGUS.

I must have misremembered SB's content because he actually does explain his vote, and bearclaw being inattentive here doesn't make sense -- it looks like he's shrugging off SB's vote and applying pressure to confuse the issue.

Ok, I disagree but ok. It took way too long to get here though.