Is there a recurring class tree worse than Archers/Bow Fighters/Whatever and Snipers?

[The Void]

This class tree hasn't been very good through the series.

Is there a class tree that's been in at least a chunk of the games that is even worse?

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

I'd say Fighters are pretty bad. Warriors are decent though.

[Rapier]

I always disliked thieves/assassins, with rare exceptions.

[Nobody]

Knights/generals

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Knights/generals

Actually, yeah, they're even worse then Archers and Fighters.

Dat lack of speed. That's also why Fighters aren't amazing, and why Pirates/Brigands outclass them.

[Refa]

Actually fighters are usually better than pirates.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Actually fighters are usually better than pirates.

Really? Don't they (Pirates/Bandits) have more strength and speed?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Duck

[Rewjeo]

It's really only GBA axe guys who are consistently bad, at least if you look at remakes over the originals. As far as knights vs. archers go, I don't know that it's very clear cut.

[Icon of Sin]

It varies from game to game for Warriors vs. Berserkers.

Generals would be better if their high defense was unique among your teammates, but Wyvern Lords tend to be just as beefy and twice as mobile. Paladins are in a similar boat and they typically come early too.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Woodshooter

[CT075]

the big problem is that the generals' excess defense is just that- excess and unnecessary beyond a few select situations

[MRDRHAWK]

Knights are only worth it for Great Knight, but even then they run into the issue of Cavalier being able to access that class.

Generals are just dick, but I will always love the FE8 General animation and their amazing Sword crit.

[Jiac]

Knights and Generals aren't too bad if you take your time and play it safe usually like me.Mainly useful early game too as they take 1-2 damage and have like 20 HP.In late game though they become pretty burdening (not useless) unless you're in a level with small corridors.Though the only Knight/General I actually ever used till late game was Oswin,he comes with good bases,decent growths and his speed isn't lacking (especially you Gilliam) I only ever used Wendy once and she was pretty decent till end game but she come with amazing bases for her somewhat contrasting growths (add bad recruitment time and you can probably call her an est but she isn't) since she comes out pretty speedy for a Knight and can be pretty rape if she doubles.

[Sublime Manic]

I only ever used Wendy once and she was pretty decent till end game but she come with amazing bases for her somewhat contrasting growths (add bad recruitment time and you can probably call her an est but she isn't) since she comes out pretty speedy for a Knight and can be pretty rape if she doubles.

Oh honey...

Knights really shouldn't have the lower mobility. That might help. The generally low speed is a big enough handicap and they wouldn't jump to being one of the best classes with a minor movement boost.

[Samias]

I wish knights were only a slow class with high defense but the movement speed nerf means they are even more useless to me than archers, who can at least outrange the other infantry on any given turn and contribute chip. In games with big maps like FE6, Bors is worth nothing to me except for his lance... to give to the cavs, because Bors can't even reach the enemy. It's really sad. That said. in maps that have a lot of lengthy defense chapters with no early end condition, knights are in better shape, which means Gatrie has it better than most armors in the series, and so does Oswin with his nearly-Jeigan-like bases. They still kinda lack on the longterm front, though.

Early game archers suffer from bad bases and no enemy phase. It's a mystery to me why IS insists on giving them bad bases. sometimes even negative bases..

[Tamanoir]

And in GBA Games, knight are actually more useless. This is a game where Avoid is far more superior in end game. Especially with those annoying Poisoned weapons.

In FE5 they are more usefull, because of better move, and being able to use lance indoor (THough I will never understand why they thought giving a E Rank to Xavier was a good Idea...)

Edited December 13, 2013 by Edea the Brave

[Nicolas]

Yeah, Xavier even double at base becauae brave bow. He is best general, who I know. Much better than loloswin.

[BrightBow]

Thieves, I guess. They were most definitely awesome in FE5 but outside of it...

They have next to no utility in the early games (who needs to repair bridges?) and are far behind with combat. And Dew and Patty/Daisy's combat are atrocious. Sure, they can get stronger with EXP but that requires actually killing stuff. Which is hard without strength or a weapon rank.

In the GBA games, they could sometimes snatch certain items and see further in fog of war but where handicapped by a new lack of promotion and a limited supply of lockpicks, that effectively couldn't be bought anywhere.

FE7/8 allowed them to promote again but for whatever reason, the devs decided to make that promotion quite troublesome with items that are rare or too late available to matter. As if Assasins were the freaking Master Knight. Heck, they even lost the ability to steal.

It became a bit more useful in PoR because at least you could snatch a few Physic staffs but they still weren't worth it.

Especially since they were now limited to weak knives.

Sothe became awesome in Radiant Dawn but that wasn't because of his class. The game gives little opportunity for thievery, rendering the class's abilities useless.

Of course Awakening takes the cake, with thievery not being locked to a class but to a skill that can be used by any class.

The class serves no purpose but to grab the skill and then reclass at the first opportunity. Awesome.

Also, every Thief in Tear Ring Saga is freaking Daisy. Yuni doesn't even have a strength growth at all.

And naturally, they are back to having no promotion. Also, there are several non-thief characters who have Thief abilities as personal skills.

And most importantly: In most games, their little bit of utility can be replaced by easily available Door/Chest/Bridge Keys.

Edited December 13, 2013 by BrightBow

[Nicolas]

Thieves, I guess. They were most definitely awesome in FE5 but outside of it...

They have next to no utility in the early games (who needs to repair bridges?) and are far behind with combat. And Dew and Patty/Daisy's combat are atrocious. Sure, they can get stronger with EXP but that requires actually killing stuff. Which is hard without strength or a weapon rank.

In the GBA games, they could sometimes snatch certain items and see further in fog of war but where handicapped by a new lack of promotion and a limited supply of lockpicks, that effectively couldn't be bought anywhere.

FE7/8 allowed them to promote again but for whatever reason, the devs decided to make that promotion quite troublesome with items that are rare or too late available to matter. As if Assasins were the freaking Master Knight. Heck, they even lost the ability to steal.

It became a bit more useful in PoR because at least you could snatch a few Physic staffs but they still weren't worth it.

Especially since they were now limited to weak knives.

Sothe became awesome in Radiant Dawn but that wasn't because of his class. The game gives little opportunity for thievery, rendering the class's abilities useless.

Of course Awakening takes the cake, with thievery not being locked to a class but to a skill that can be used by any class.

The class serves no purpose but to grab the skill and then reclass at the first opportunity. Awesome.

Also, every Thief in Tear Ring Saga is freaking Daisy. Yuni doesn't even have a strength growth at all.

And naturally, they are back to having no promotion. Also, there are several non-thief characters who have Thief abilities as personal skills.

And most importantly: In most games, their little bit of utility can be replaced by easily available Door/Chest/Bridge Keys.

Well, some thieves has not so bad combat (better than average archer), like Colm or Jaffar.

[BrightBow]

Well, some thieves has not so bad combat (better than average archer), like Colm or Jaffar.

True, but there were also some halfway decent archers outside of Gaiden, like Jorge, Jamuka, Bridget, Faval, Klein, Igrene, Innes or RD Shinon,

Edited December 13, 2013 by BrightBow

[Elieson]

colm is average at best. Being swordlocked in a game that favors 1~2 range isn't very cool.

[Nicolas]

colm is average at best. Being swordlocked in a game that favors 1~2 range isn't very cool.

That's still 9732659873257235x better than Neimi. Or Wil. Or Wolt. Or Roran. Or Rolf.

True, but there were also some halfway decent archers outside of Gaiden, like Jorge, Jamuka, Bridget, Faval, Klein, Igrene, Innes or RD Shinon,

There are good generals like Xavier, or RD Gatrie (however, I've only heard about he's good, because I doesn't play FE10).

There are good thieves.

There are good archers bow fighters and snipers (pay attention that any of good bow users isn't in archer class).

But average thief is fare more useful than knight or archer because high movement and enemy phase. I know, "crappy stats", but at least they can do something, what is more than archers are doing. Or knights.

[Irysa]

That's still 9732659873257235x better than Neimi. Or Wil. Or Wolt. Or Roran. Or Rolf.

To be fair, half the reason Colm has any acceptable combat in casual play is partially because of his explosive support with Neimi (and in turn that sort of makes her suck less too). FE8 enemies are generally weak and having a free + 1 atk from the getgo helps them at least be able to do things like tagteam enemies. It goes up pretty fast too.

Raising a thief is easier than raising a knight or an archer, their natural advantageous matchup (bandit/pirates) are plentiful early on, suck at hitting them, and get doubled with low defence. Some games they even get an EXP gain bonus. And it can make your life easier in some chapters if thieves can actually fight or take a hit instead of having to be protected.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Irysa

[Shadow Mir]

Thieves, I guess. They were most definitely awesome in FE5 but outside of it...

They have next to no utility in the early games (who needs to repair bridges?) and are far behind with combat. And Dew and Patty/Daisy's combat are atrocious. Sure, they can get stronger with EXP but that requires actually killing stuff. Which is hard without strength or a weapon rank.

In the GBA games, they could sometimes snatch certain items and see further in fog of war but where handicapped by a new lack of promotion and a limited supply of lockpicks, that effectively couldn't be bought anywhere.

FE7/8 allowed them to promote again but for whatever reason, the devs decided to make that promotion quite troublesome with items that are rare or too late available to matter. As if Assasins were the freaking Master Knight. Heck, they even lost the ability to steal.

It became a bit more useful in PoR because at least you could snatch a few Physic staffs but they still weren't worth it.

Especially since they were now limited to weak knives.

Sothe became awesome in Radiant Dawn but that wasn't because of his class. The game gives little opportunity for thievery, rendering the class's abilities useless.

Of course Awakening takes the cake, with thievery not being locked to a class but to a skill that can be used by any class.

The class serves no purpose but to grab the skill and then reclass at the first opportunity. Awesome.

Also, every Thief in Tear Ring Saga is freaking Daisy. Yuni doesn't even have a strength growth at all.

And naturally, they are back to having no promotion. Also, there are several non-thief characters who have Thief abilities as personal skills.

And most importantly: In most games, their little bit of utility can be replaced by easily available Door/Chest/Bridge Keys.

iono, I don't think they had it that bad relative to archers. Dark mages, OTOH? Not so much. Not sure about FE5. In FE6, Niime was serviceable enough with an Angelic Robe or two, but Raigh and especially Sophia are a pain to work with. At least Nosferatu was light. Canas in FE7 was also pretty good, and while Nosferatu was nerfed by more than doubling the weight, at least there was Luna. FE8 nerfed Luna - the ONE thing dark magic had going for it in FE7 - to being near useless, on top of having the one dark mage, and the potential dark mage as well, join late. Dark magic went MIA in FE9 before returning in FE10... as a new game+ only thing, to say nothing of the fact that the only dark magic users joined very late in the game, with the first being underleveled and the other needing you to undergo that one sidequest to recruit, in addition to being available for only one part of endgame (and even then, you had to bring the other guy to endgame if you wanted him to be able to do anything with it, to say nothing of Balberith sucking ass). Just great. Shadow Dragon? Outside of Etzel, you had to reclass to get a dark mage, and even then, no one in the game would be good as a reclassed dark mage. Wonderful. New Mystery? I'm not sure, but I think it's more of the same. Which leaves Awakening as the one game where they aren't all that bad.

Also, as far as Awakening's concerned, Locktouch was pretty much necessary if you wanted treasure, considering that keys aren't buyable in that game.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[PKL]

I tend to at least use Archers. Rarely do I actually use Knights though. They're so useless. I can recall only a few instances where i've used the class, and that's in FE10 due to Gatrie and FE12 because reclassing to General can be useful in rare instances.

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

Thieves, I guess. They were most definitely awesome in FE5 but outside of it...

They have next to no utility in the early games (who needs to repair bridges?) and are far behind with combat. And Dew and Patty/Daisy's combat are atrocious. Sure, they can get stronger with EXP but that requires actually killing stuff. Which is hard without strength or a weapon rank.

...

And most importantly: In most games, their little bit of utility can be replaced by easily available Door/Chest/Bridge Keys.

Or by a force-deployed Lord who can open chests by himself...

You can at least breed a Patty with a good weapon rank or skillset. Dew is just torture to train.