Big NOCers - Game Over

[Vhaltz]

I didn't think much of j00'sposts at first glance. Felt irked that he justified a jokevote since it's a relatively common move by scum trying to avoid attention by moving their vote around, but shrugged it off because I figured I was just being biased due to the vote being on me.

bedtimes

[SB.]

I don't see the scum benefit in keeping their vote down from RVS rather than changing it if the situation benefits them more?

[eclipse]

I don't see the scum benefit in keeping their vote down from RVS rather than changing it if the situation benefits them more?

Less things to keep track of/justify comes to mind.

Conq: Between your early claim and one post, you don't give out much in the way of associative reads, and I didn't see anything weird in them. Since your role doesn't trigger on lynch (and we don't need to lynch you), I think it would benefit the town most if you were a secondary wagon, with the scummiest people on it. We can sort out who goes where later.

Paperblade: Reads? I see that you give no shits about me (that's cool), and don't see the need to vote Refa, yet your vote is still on Manix. What didn't you like about his response?

Prims: Manix's ISO is broken. He's going by Curly Brace ATM.

[eclipse]

Also: Vhaltz, go to bed.

[SB.]

Why do you want the scummiest people on Conq, eclipse? Leaving them to decide where they put their votes is a better way of telling their alignments, imo, and if they quickhammer Conq we get an easy scumlynch the next day.

[eclipse]

Conq wouldn't ask for votes on him without reason. I suspect he gets information based off of who votes him - thus, put the people who look the worst on what I think an informational role is. I'd say L/2 would be a good number, as it'll mitigate weird stuff like scum mayor. That can be determined later. For now, I'd like to find a solution that'll lynch scum and help Conq with his role.

[SB.]

I would trade almost any info role for a mafia lynch, but eh.

Also, I think he said it had to be specifically 4 votes?

[Scarlet]

Good grief

Would kinda like an explanation from Scarlet why they're voting Vhaltz, as their vote post seems more like "wtf is this reaction test" than anything.

I mainly wanted explanations, so I threw a pressure vote on him.

Speaking of it, I don't really like the fact that he acknowledged my post yet didn't reply to any of my questions.

On the other hand his recent posts seemed a lot more reasonable. In particular, I find myself agreeing with his #101.

I guess for the time being I'm willing to accept his "reaction test" for what is was, poorly executed as it may have been.

##Unvote

Mainly wanted to get this out of the way, will post again once I've sorted out what else is actually going on.

[SB.]

Raymond's last post reads to me like "fuck, I can't keep my vote here anymore" rather than a townie who changed their mind.

[Scarlet]

How so?

[Refa]

IMPORTANT NOTE- Noticed SB hinted at this, so might as well just clarify My role doesn't have anything to do with my suspicions on eclipse's role. I'm not Tracker or Role Cop. Will respond to the last two pages shortly.

[Paperblade]

Let's not tell people what to do with their votes, that just removes accountability from their actions.

Most players so far have been fairly forgettable imo and I have no strong reads one way or the other. Pushing me to come up with something I dislike about Manix's recent posts is questionable, I disliked him before and his defense just didn't do it for me.

I dislike the tone of SB's vote but I may just be getting defensive because I've not been feeling well out of game. What about it feels fake to you?

-Balcerzak wrote a whole lot, but besides his issues with eclipse (which I agree with) it just amounts too "I'm not really bothered by anyone." which makes his post seem like well, fluff.

on reread, this is a good point from Refa

[Paperblade]

IMPORTANT NOTE- Noticed SB hinted at this, so might as well just clarify My role doesn't have anything to do with my suspicions on eclipse's role. I'm not Tracker or Role Cop. Will respond to the last two pages shortly.

this is a dumb post

[j00]

catching up on the last three pages, post coming before bed

[j00]

wow I just realised big nocers was a pun

[SB.]

You feel disconnected because I feel like the majority of your content is basically game philosophy and one manix suspicion that hasn't really evolved since it's conception (and calling people who dislike that "questionable" is kind of weak too, considering that's all you've done.) The part that felt forced were the last two lines in #95, just because the way they were worded doesn't seem like it came naturally?

Gonna sleep now.

[SB.]

Noticed this last moment.

How so?

It feels like there's too much you dislike about Vhaltz to justify the unvote just from how you kept mentioning it and only said "ok his posts are better I guess" and then don't have an alternative lined up. Why not just wait until you content posted to do it?

[Strege]

Woo catching up.

I think BBM's initial push wasn't thought out completely since "it doesn't have an effect on your vote" is a reason to mention the semiclaim, not a reason not to. Manix's reasoning also doesn't line up completely. These have been covered by others.

Currently don't see the deal on Manix, but hey, since you acknowledged Conq's role, do you have any thoughts on it? Like, do you think it is a something we should do, or are you completely indifferent to what people do but decided to mention it's existence?

What did you consider the "deal on Manix" at this point? Is it the same as BBM's deal?

So much for inactivity, how am I supposed to overspam you guys ;_;

Vhaltz "reaction test" sounds dumb to me too, what kind of reaction were you hoping for? What kind of reaction would be scummy from that? In general I don't like reaction tests because they're almost always used in dumb ways or as a way to backtrack on stupid stuff you did.

I don't see scum intent here, or you looking for it.

@Vhaltz: Can't the exact reason you're voting BBM (feels like he's just trying too hard to stick to the vote) be applied to SB too? Not seeing why BBM would earn a vote when doesn't even get a comment.

This feels like a significant stretch; BBM was more adamant and transitioned from his initial argument into another. SB made a one-sentence argument and clarified it later.

Refa's posts have been weird to me. It pings me a bit that he didn't pursue Balcerzak more after post 82, if not cite specific Manix stuffs. I really don't understand why he asked eclipse about Manix out of the blue and asked Paperblade about eclipse "considering she found SB scummy for finding Manix overdefensive (which you and I do as well...I'm surprised she didn't comment on that all actually, considering SB is her main scumread)". I just don't understand what the connective tissue between eclipse and Paperblade is supposed to be and it comes across as a contrived jab at eclipse to me.

##Unvote (Balcerzak) (RVS)
##Vote: j00

[j00]

My problem with Vhaltz wrt his reaction test isn't that I think he was backtracking stuff he said, it's that I don't get what purpose the reaction test is for.

Like what would you expect the scum reaction to be when you're declaring someone else to be dayvig by the second page in the game? At most you'd get a wtf from either alignment, can't really see any plausible reaction being indicative of town or scum, so the whole thing feels like planning a reaction test for town cred rather than useful information.

Also when I say reaction tests are generally bad I mean it's bad, not necessary scummy. the way prims does it he has a clear purpose (even if no one ever buys it anymore), by faking a guilty report inexperienced scum might believe it and give up, same goes for vigging since people are prone to stop giving a shit after they're dead.

In those cases there's some obvious ways scum might react, but a lot of reaction tests are people doing dumb stuff that mainly catches noob town, and sometimes the tests are so incomprehensible you get shit on from town and scum alike.
Other times, it really is just scum doing damage control.

But yeah, other than reaction test stuff, I don't think your votes have been great either. I've already explained why I thought your BBM push was weak and obviously I disagree with your vote on me. Already explained what I meant about the reaction tests above.

You've also explained your BBM read, but doesn't seem to have changed your mind on him, and he hasn't posted since. Do you find me more scummy just because my stance on reaction tests?

And your explanation for sb being better is

wrt SB I’m not very worried about him because I think I get good reads on him as the game goes on, his reasons for voting Manix and I have been alright even if I don't agree with either.

"well he probably will get better"

I asked why SB's Manix vote was different from BBM and you haven't really explained that yet.

comments on Refa/eclipse next

[Scarlet]

Done re-reading.

SB seems pretty non-commital to his cases; he keeps changing his vote without giving much of a reasoning for why the new votee is more suspicious than the previous? In his #124 in particular he talks about dropping his case on Manix when his vote was on Vhaltz at that point, while making little mention of the latter aside from asking him a question that implies he's still suspicious of him?

Regarding the Refa/CLIPSEY! exchange, Refa's case on CLIPSEY! is bad. He's been doing almost nothing except rolespec so far, and generally, trying to base cases off what roles the setup might have or not have on either alignment leads nowhere, much less so on part of a role. In other words, while he now has posted quite a bit, he hasn't actually said much... ...after accusing Bal of doing the same.

##SayHiTo: Refa

Nothing else really grabbed my attention so far. Want to see a content post from Kaoz and Bal, though.

It feels like there's too much you dislike about Vhaltz to justify the unvote just from how you kept mentioning it and only said "ok his posts are better I guess" and then don't have an alternative lined up. Why not just wait until you content posted to do it?

Uh, I guess I can see how it might come across as such? I was mainly just annoyed.

[j00]

on eclipse, there might be town intent in hiding the role since hiding information from scum and all that, but her reasons for outing it is legit and I see no situation in where scum would claim ninja, since the point of the role is that town pr's won't catch you.

don't like both Balzerac and Refa's comment on the ninja claim, but Refa's case is pretty bad since he drags rolespec into his arguments without ever coming up with a reason for why scum would claim ninja immediately in the game.

[Prims]

Day 1.3 - Votals

Manix (3) - BigBangMeteor, Refa, Paperblade

Refa (3) - eclipse, Manix, Scarlet

j00 (2) - Vhaltz, Strege

Paperblade (2) - Kaoz, SB

eclipse (1) - Balcerzak

Kaoz (1) - Conqueror

Vhaltz (1) - j00

Not Voting (0): None!

You have 48 hours and 8 minutes left in the day. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Prims

[j00]

@Vhaltz

I find your use of meta a nulltell, since yeah, it helps being familiar with other player's train of thought, but there are a lot of reasons for why we discourage excessive use of meta:

- it doesn't make for convincing cases. "X did this to Y in game #2345, so Z doing this to Q is also a scumtell" doesn't really argue why what Z does is bad, only that it has been done by scum before.

- from above point: it can be used as lazy scumhunting.

- people's meta change. good players adjust to not become too predictable.

- people might take advantage of their meta. if they know their towntells, it's easy to fool someone who bases reads on meta.

- some people tend to roll one alignment more often than the other, it's hard to predict meta on them due to lack of recent information.

- it's not fun. it's hard to defend against cases on meta and they're often the start of frustrating discussions.

meta in small doses is reasonable, but while making yourself familiar with players by reading past games is good, dragging specific past cases out as arguments in the current game is just unhelpful, but in regards to your own case and the players trying to defend themselves from it.

[j00]

both* in regards to your own case and the players trying to defend themselves from it

I should go to sleep soon

[j00]

@strege:

The "deal on Manix" at that point was making a case of him mentioning Conq's claim, the whole thing was null to me because while Manix mentioning it seemed unecessary, I don't think it was anything to make a case on.

I don't agree on BBM and SB being very different on their opinions on Manix at that point, they were basically sheeping each other. If anything, BBM's vote was more thoroughly explained than SB's, yet Vhaltz thought BBM's was worse even if SB did less to justify it.

Already made a wall on reaction tests, tl;dr I don't get what kind of reactions he wanted from that test, thus I fail to see how it's supposed to help town.