Big NOCers - Game Over

[j00]

last comment before bed

Kaoz only post outside RVS is a bunch of questions, would like actual opinions and comments and a serious vote at some point

[Paperblade]

I have a town read gaiz

You feel disconnected because I feel like the majority of your content is basically game philosophy and one manix suspicion that hasn't really evolved since it's conception (and calling people who dislike that "questionable" is kind of weak too, considering that's all you've done.) The part that felt forced were the last two lines in #95, just because the way they were worded doesn't seem like it came naturally?

Gonna sleep now.

How is this different from, say, my N0 in AM/PM or my D1 in Awakening? My D1 has always been hit or miss because of a lack of information creating a lack of confidence in my reads. I feel like you are not reading my posts, too. I have thoughts about other players, they just aren't expressed strongly because my feelings on their alignment are not strong.

Add in that I have barely played at all this year, so I'm out of practice and thus a bit unfamiliar with things. I also have personal problems outside of mafia which multiple people (some of which are even in this game) can attest to. So yes, I am a bit disconnected from the game.

This ninja rolespec nonsense needs to stop.

[Grace]

i am back but i feel completely awful. fair warning if i don't make any substantive posts for a bit

[Refa]

Manix said that he won't be here for a while. I'm here. Your vote is on the guy who can't respond, while I get the feeling that you're trying to push my case without voting me (and thus, associating yourself with my lynch, should it happen). This is something I'd expect out of scum, not town.

Considering I said I was more bothered by Manix then you, it makes sense that my vote was on Manix instead of you.

As far as eclipse's most recent posts are concerned, nothing really stands out to me one way or the other.

Reasoning on BBM. May require reading back on posts #54 to #66.

BBM's reasons for voting Manix didn't make sense past the fluff accusation. His reasons to keep suspecting Manix after their exchange were based Manix's Conq vote being justified on the grounds of Conq's claim (and thus not making any sense because Conq's whatever-upon-voting only works at end-of-phase and Manix's vote on him would've been useless), when Manix clearly stated that his vote on Conq was solely for the sake of wagoning in the same post where he lay down the vote (#54).

OK, I see what you mean in regards to Manix's vote on Conqer. Yeah, I don't really get why BBM thought Manix's vote was based on Conqer's claim (PEdit- apparently Manix mentioned his vote did a thing, so that was probably what BBM was referring too), he should explain his reasoning there. I'm more bothered by Manix than BBM in this regard because all of his early votes have been for the express purpose of making wagons (specifically, his votes on Conq/you) which just seems a little too easy. I remember town!Manix being more overzealous to catch scum and generally sticking pretty hard to his votes.

I honestly can't see why j00 is worse than Scarlet. They both asked what reaction you were hoping for, so I don't see why he comes across as "questioning your motives" while j00's vote comes across as lazy.

Fair enough WRT Kaoz.

pretty sure the people who voted me while i was asleep (@refa's #82 and paper's #95) completely missed this. it implies that the "overexplanations" were shit due to weird headspace, and to that end i still explained what i wanted done with the vote, regardless.

@refa (#82): why mention that Bal's post is fluff if you're not going to do anything with it?

also refa's string of posts with clipsey i don't like: there's no reason to suspect someone based on roleclaims, and the further passive aggressive pushing against clipsey while holding onto a (flawed) vote makes me think something is up.

what makes you say that? it's not like refa reevaluated his priorities when he had more reasons against clipsey, instead keeping his previous vote. definitely could )and i think is) mudslinging rn

-Fair enough regarding why you were overexplaining, but honestly I'm still not a fan of your initial reasoning. Why did you need to create wagons? What was the purpose, it certainly didn't make either of the people you were voting effort more.

-Because those were my thoughts on it? Seriously, that's like asking why I mention anything that's not directly relevant to my vote. Since Strege questioned why I didn't do anything further with my Balcerzak suspicion too, it's because well he hasn't done anything else and what I was suspicious of in the first place was lesser than who I was voting for.

-OK, let's see what happened (fair enough on the passive aggressive thing though, I'll try to be less so in the future).

-Balcerzak wrote a whole lot, but besides his issues with eclipse (which I agree with) it just amounts too "I'm not really bothered by anyone." which makes his post seem like well, fluff.

I mention my suspicion of eclipse as a one off comment in my read of someone else. Clearly it's NBD.

Okay, add Refa to that list as well. If you think I'm that suspicious, why is there no vote on me?

eclipse complains that I find her "that suspicious" and then questions why I didn't vote her.

Manix doing actually suspicious things > you having a suspicious role.

I mention that (obviously) the person I'm voting doing things that bother me is more suspicious than her scummy role.

If I'm suspicious on role, then why the hell would I immediately out a modifier that hurts investigative roles?

She asks why would she out her role if it was so suspicious. Fair enough.

So you don't get investigated? Seems pretty obvious to me...Also I can't see Town!Rolecop being such a strong role that it needs to be nerfed by the addition of a Town!Ninja, but apparently Prims has done this before so it is possible I guess.

Actually would a Town!Ninja even be considered a nerf? I feel like it's a similar situation to SB's discussion on Millers. Generally the player would claim at the beginning of the game and thus increase the odds of Tracker/Rolecop targeting actual scum.

I answer and get called out on rolespec (not referring to eclipse here). Like yeah, I don't see how that qualifies. Also j00, I did come up with an explanation for why scum would claim Ninja, perhaps you should HARD READER.

Other people who need to read that exchange again: Scarlet, j00, Paperblade

-Like yeah, I find her role suspicious, but I wasn't really bothered by eclipse until my whole exchange with her.

-Why would I need to reevaluate my priorities when they were the same? Nothing eclipse did bothered me as much as you. You can't complain that my eclipse case sucked and then be like "wow, why didn't Refa change his vote, seems like he had something going there".

That's probably the thing I find the most off about Refa; seems like massive buddying unless Refa and Paperblade have a history of being conversational in that way.

We don't really, I was just curious considering her suspicions applied to him as well.

Ok nvm I just noticed Refa used wolfy so he was probably joking on the eclipse being suspicious part. What I DON'T like about Refa though is that I feel like his post is pretty empty of reads, aside from a Manix suspcion that he snatched from me. The "would it even be a nerf" thing also feels like fearmongering.

What would you expect me to have reads on at the time of that post? I stated a suspicion on Manix (yeah, sheeped from you) and Balcerzak, and said that I disagreed with the votes on Vhaltz who was the other big wagon at the time (and still is, really).

I don't see how Paperblade's initial post comes out as forced. Also this just seems like a weaker case than your other two suspicions (Vhaltz and me) overall. Also how are you dropping your Manix suspicion just now? Clearly you were trusting him enough to not only take your vote off of him but also vote the same person he was, so it comes across as really weird that your suspicions have been only recently alleviated.

Raymond's last post reads to me like "fuck, I can't keep my vote here anymore" rather than a townie who changed their mind.

Not really? It's not like Vhaltz's wagon was devoid of people, I don't see what scum benefit he'd have to take his vote off of Town!Vhaltz.

Noticed this last moment.

It feels like there's too much you dislike about Vhaltz to justify the unvote just from how you kept mentioning it and only said "ok his posts are better I guess" and then don't have an alternative lined up. Why not just wait until you content posted to do it?

OK, but...where's the scum benefit in changing his vote? Like the only one I can see is if they're scum buddies, but then I don't really get the point of his initial vote if he was just going to drop it later on so obviously.

Honestly not sure if I'm bothered more by SB or Manix, I'll do some rereading and change my vote if necessary.

[Refa]

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

Fite me (justification is mostly because a lot of my suspicion on Manix is based on his early play and his last post).

[Grace]

small post

I'm more bothered by Manix than BBM in this regard because all of his early votes have been for the express purpose of making wagons (specifically, his votes on Conq/you) which just seems a little too easy. I remember town!Manix being more overzealous to catch scum and generally sticking pretty hard to his votes.

1) i don't stick to rvs votes unless there's a good reason.

2) check the timeframe when i made said posts

3) if you don't make wagons or something happen in rvs the game doesn't progress

4) i haven't played for 2 months, so i might play differently, who knows

Why did you need to create wagons? What was the purpose, it certainly didn't make either of the people you were voting effort more.

see 3 above

-Because those were my thoughts on it?

it was a statement, there was no indication of what you thought from it. it wasn't even a suspicion.

-Balcerzak wrote a whole lot, but besides his issues with eclipse (which I agree with) it just amounts too "I'm not really bothered by anyone." which makes his post seem like well, fluff.

here's the quote in question. how does one determine what you actually think from that? it's kind of like how i stated something about conq's claim, and look at the shit i got from that.

Why would I need to reevaluate my priorities when they were the same? Nothing eclipse did bothered me as much as you. You can't complain that my eclipse case sucked and then be like "wow, why didn't Refa change his vote, seems like he had something going there".

missing the point. irrelevant of what i think about your case, from your POV you should be reevaluating your lynch priority when new information came to the table, even if it doesn't change. it took prodding to make you even say it, and it makes it look like you're trying to non-effort that vote. which is what scum like to do.

-

okay maybe a bit longer than expected, and not even sure if some of it makes sense. i'm gonna like, nap or something

[Paperblade]

@Refa: I'm iffy on both you and Bal for that comment, the way you pushed it is just worse

I'm gonna reread in the morning, tired atm

[j00]

Refa: not getting investigated by role cops isn't worth outing ninja IMO, since alignment cops should scan based on behavior rather than claims that doesn't indicated alignment.

[SB.]

Strege: What do you think of BBM and Manix at the moment? You bring up their interactions but don't mention a read on either of them. I also kind of feel like your j00 vote is more like pointing things out rather than explaining why they're scummy to you?

Raymond (and Paper): About me changing my vote a lot: shrug. It's just earlygame and trying to get a feel for things. My Paper vote was kind of disproportionate to the amount I suspected him, just because I figured I'd get a better reaction with a vote down. I can buy not getting into the game much for now as his reason. I do find the way that he keeps changing the way he brings up Refa considering he has his vote on him kind of off though? Not sure how to word this. Back to Raymond though, I don't like how you're trying to call me out for still being suspicious of Manix when I have my vote elsewhere? I can still be suspicious of him and find Vhaltz felt worse, can't I? The rolespec point on Refa feels like an easy thing to point out and he doesn't really address anything else in Refa's content so I'm not really enthusiastic about his vote either.

Refa: You not having many reads kind of goes with the fact that a large chunk of your posts are fluff or questions that don't really give reads, which is something I tend to see in your scumgame more than if you're town. Your suspicion on me too looks more like it's due to the fact you disagree with what I'm saying rather than you think that it's scummy.

More in depth with that stuff: I already said I was fine with Manix's follow-up post and "why are you voting for the same person you suspected earlier" is dumb because two players can be suspicious independent of each other. Scum!Raymond taking his vote off of Vhaltz could be explained by him struggling to bs a case on him any longer and not wanting to get called out for that.

##Unvote

##Vote: Raymond

[Scarlet]

Okay, what

Raymond (and Paper): About me changing my vote a lot: shrug. It's just earlygame and trying to get a feel for things. My Paper vote was kind of disproportionate to the amount I suspected him, just because I figured I'd get a better reaction with a vote down.

Hypocrisy much? If you consider me making an early D1 pressure vote and then dropping it later on scummy, then why did you do literally the same thing?

Back to Raymond though, I don't like how you're trying to call me out for still being suspicious of Manix when I have my vote elsewhere? I can still be suspicious of him and find Vhaltz felt worse, can't I?

No, that's not what I was saying at all.

In your #81, you switched your vote from Manix to Vhaltz. You stated suspicions on both, but not why Vhaltz suddenly was more suspicious than Manix.

Then in your #124, you give absolutely no reason for dropping the Vhaltz vote (in fact, the question directed at him implies you were still suspicious of him) and changing to Paperblade. I may have misinterpreted you dropping your case on Manix (it seemed like an attempted justification of your Vhaltz unvote at first, which would be really silly), but that still doesn't change the fact that your unvote was for... ...essentially no reason. None that you stated, anyway.

It really feels like you're just trying to stir up chaos.

More in depth with that stuff: I already said I was fine with Manix's follow-up post and "why are you voting for the same person you suspected earlier" is dumb because two players can be suspicious independent of each other. Scum!Raymond taking his vote off of Vhaltz could be explained by him struggling to bs a case on him any longer and not wanting to get called out for that.

I really don't like how you keep implying I was making a big case out of the Vhaltz vote when it was literally just a single post with a pressure vote and some questions in it. A pressure vote over a "wtf was that", no more, no less.

##Unvote

##InviteOver: SB

I'd say hipocrisy, misrepping and BSing beats not having a lot of meaningful content at this point.

[Scarlet]

*hypocrisy

I can't English

[Vhaltz]

My problem with Vhaltz wrt his reaction test isn't that I think he was backtracking stuff he said, it's that I don't get what purpose the reaction test is for.

Like what would you expect the scum reaction to be when you're declaring someone else to be dayvig by the second page in the game? At most you'd get a wtf from either alignment, can't really see any plausible reaction being indicative of town or scum, so the whole thing feels like planning a reaction test for town cred rather than useful information.

If you honestly think reaction tests get you anywhere close to getting towncred in SF you should reevaluate your everything.

[spoiler=Responses to useless questions (except maybe the BBM stance)]I have no idea why understanding the purpose of the reaction test should be an issue to anybody, I posted my jokevote on Paper, then noticed that faking a dayvig would be a good way to get out of RVS and tried to nudge SB into pretending he was actually a dayvig so that he'd put more people in the circle for reactions. It didn't cross my mind to claim to be the dayvig myself because it would've been terribly obvious that I was just reminded of the existence of dayvig tests and nobody would've taken it seriously. Either way, just because it stopped at SB going "wtf" doesn't mean that's as far as it intended to go.

Wrt BBM the case was a logic tell + meta, logic tells suck so I don't put much/any stock in them past ED1, the meta on finding the early tunneling odd still stands but isn't something I'd cast a vote over, would rather look at other people atm.

SB clearly suspected Manix for different reasons (overdefensiveness) than BBM (fluff + no sense wrt Conq role stuff), you could've gone back to read the exchange and easily tell the difference.

The whole case here reads like "you reaction tested which is scummy, your votes are bad and you haven't responded to every one of the dozen questions that people asked you", there's no explaining why anything is scummy anywhere and every argument that justifies his sticking to his vote feels more like attempts to twist things into accusations or to stall the case by demanding responses and calling things null/bad (meta is null: -theory discussion-, your votes are weak, answer to ED1 questions) than actual scumhunting looking for scum intent. j00 should stop invoking universals and look back at my posts at the time when I made the code to explain what I did that he thinks was scummy and justified scum!me backtracking/covering things up by making up the whole test deal.

j00 > Scarlet was mostly a tone gut thing that I didn't really explain well at the time I voted. If I had to explain it somehow it's that Scarlet's post felt like "ED1 whatever let's poke some people to produce content" that I don't think is alignment-indicative, whereas j00's posts felt like he was actually trying to push a case on me based on "reaction tests are universally scummy because x, y z" which felt like policy lynch-ish "this universal thing is scummy, go lynch" argumentative.

Speaking of Scarlet, he has continued to be apathetic in his recent posts and I honestly don't know what to make of them, SB's comment wrt scum!Scarlet empty unvoting when he felt like he couldn't BS a case anymore is good but not something I'd vote him over atm (I can think of an alternate explanation from town!POV).

Scarlet should invest more into the game and engage in discussion more instead of just going "nothing else caught my attention".

I agree with SB wrt Refa's latest vote being based on opinion disagreements rather than actual scumhunting. The wall of text he put out that didn't really achieve anything reads-wise aside from poking at SB, and while he mentions being not-so-suspicious of Clipsey and Manix anymore as a justification for the switch he doesn't really drop them either. Feels like scum parking their vote off-wagons where it won't gather as much attention and leaving their options open for later.

I wasn't big on the Refa case last night because I didn't think the deal eclipse brought up was alignment indicative but now I'd like to see a Refa update.

SB being more aggressive than usual is more likely to make him town that's on a roll after his recent games than scum not caring where their vote goes. SB!scum tends to have a harder time making up cases on townies so I don't think his reads would flow as genuinely as they have so far, nor do I think he would've been switching around so much. Nothing feels knee-jerky enough to come from scum!SB and I've found myself agreeing with several of his reads so far so I don't really want to lynch him D1 unless something exceptional happens at deadline or w/e.

Atm I'd go

j00 >> Refa > rest > SB

Kaoz an Scarlet would go somewhere in between Refa and the rest but I'm leaving them out until I see more from them. My read on Kaoz in particular is a clusterfuck of meta speculation and I doubt anybody wants to read me go into detail on that atm.

I'd like to hear people's opinions on j00 and Refa.

Also Kaoz's read on Paperblade because I've confirmed several times that I can't read Paper worth crap.

Cut by Scarlet posts, gotta get lunch right now before my parents get mad so putting this out

[Vhaltz]

Should've split that up, I didn't get the impression that I had written that much. Anyway brb

[j00]

I've already said that I don't think you were backtracking when claiming the reaction test, my issue was that your reaction test seemed to be more for stirring up town than to catch scum. You're also distorting my words, I said reaction tests can be done right and provided primsamples of that, but you still wring it to be that I said reaction tests to be universally bad.

That said, I buy that you were just trying to get us out of RVS and I'll leave the whole reaction testing thing alone.

SB being more aggressive than usual is more likely to make him town that's on a roll after his recent games than scum not caring where their vote goes. SB!scum tends to have a harder time making up cases on townies so I don't think his reads would flow as genuinely as they have so far, nor do I think he would've been switching around so much. Nothing feels knee-jerky enough to come from scum!SB and I've found myself agreeing with several of his reads so far so I don't really want to lynch him D1 unless something exceptional happens at deadline or w/e.

Atm I'd go

j00 >> Refa > rest > SB

This whole part is terrible since you're placing SB as your biggest townread largely based on meta. SB's rolled scum a lot recently, so have I, yet you claim SB being aggresive early in the game is a towntell for him when the exact same can be said of me. I've already explained why I think meta is bad, but you're being really selective with meta on this part.

I said your votes are weak, how is that not looking for scum intent? Scum has to make up cases, weak cases are scummy. At the time you voted me over Scarlet, it was mostly gut. You said you voted BBM over SB because SB felt like he was going to get better. Basically your cases are really vague and you're accusing me of not reading your posts properly when you seem to distort my words too.

[j00]

I agree with Raymond in that he and SB has done similar things regarding logic behind votes, but I don't really have strong feelings on either of them except SB < Scarlet.

SB is worse than Raymond since his case feels like it was making too big of a deal of the Vhaltz unvote, and he admitted his vote on Paper wasn't very good either.

[Vhaltz]

I've already said that I don't think you were backtracking when claiming the reaction test, my issue was that your reaction test seemed to be more for stirring up town than to catch scum.

I saw my mistake when I posted and reread the first line in the part of your post I quoted but had to rush off. 10/10 reading skills.

This whole part is terrible since you're placing SB as your biggest townread largely based on meta. SB's rolled scum a lot recently, so have I, yet you claim SB being aggresive early in the game is a towntell for him when the exact same can be said of me. I've already explained why I think meta is bad, but you're being really selective with meta on this part.

I said your votes are weak, how is that not looking for scum intent? Scum has to make up cases, weak cases are scummy. At the time you voted me over Scarlet, it was mostly gut. You said you voted BBM over SB because SB felt like he was going to get better. Basically your cases are really vague and you're accusing me of not reading your posts properly when you seem to distort my words too.

I haven't read any games you were in while I've played with SB several times and have generally been accurate in reading him after I started playing in SF. While true that I should actually check your scumgames I didn't feel like the tells I've been bringing up on you are very likely to change based on meta. You could say I also selectively used meta on Poly and Green Poet last game when I cased many other people, but this was due to having tells that I figured were more likely to be right/wrong depending on meta.

You keep misinterpreting my BBM over SB though. SB's reasons for suspecting Manix were sparse but alright, whereas I've already explained that BBM's reasons to vote for Manix were stretched when he delved into the Conq role stuff.

[Vhaltz]

Accidentally hit post there

[j00]

Eh, I generally don't like using meta myself, so likewise I feel better about cases that don't use meta as arguments. Meta cases are usually not convincing since you're basing it on stuff that's happened before, not the things that are happening now.

Do you have any reasons beside meta to put SB at a townread?

[Vhaltz]

Like I don't get how you can still think that the ways SB and BBM were the same.

But it's such a completely irrelevant thing to say. Nobody would have known you'd missed it if you hadn't said it, and you missing it didn't affect anything in any way. I know it's RVS but it still strikes me as fluff for the sake of fluff.

But like SB said, Conq's role is at the end of the phase and you're presumably going to change your vote to someone you actually find suspicious later on. It's not like this vote was intended specifically to trigger Conq's role.

The vote doesn't matter right now (it's only end of phase votes, I think?) so it feels like you're overexplaining yourself rather than just shrugging it off.

Words are hard.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

Like how do these look remotely similar to you?

[Vhaltz]

I'm reading SB as town entirely on meta, I could be wrong since I used the same metaread on him last game and he could've turned it 180º on me, but the fact that he's posting a lot more than he usually does and keeps bringing up relevant points that I agree with make me doubt that's the case, at least this far in the game. Does reading people based on meta make me scum?

[j00]

BBM first says it was fluff, SB said it was overexplaining, and then BBM backed SB's vote up.

The gist of what both said is that he was making a deal out of it, when there was no point since it was irrelevant until later.

I don't think either of us feel very strongly about case anymore though.

In general I just think your cases are too much gut and meta, too little logical arguments, which is why you feel scummy to me. Apparently you just like meta regardless of alignments, so I don't think this argument is going anywhere. Reading people based on meta doesn't make you scum, but I do think it makes your cases weak.

Gonna reread up on Manix and other people that have been forgettable.

[Vhaltz]

My reads on SB, BBM, Prims, Conq and Kaoz are going to be inherently more based on meta than my reads on the other people around just because I've either played with them enough or I feel like I know them well enough to do it with certain accuracy. When it comes to the people I don't know I'll make decisions based on what I have and check back on meta if necessary, what I'm not going to do is read back on the meta in literally everybody else in the game just because it would mean I'm "selectively using meta".

I'm sorry if I'm kind of annoyed right now but I get tired really fast of "meta is bad" parroting

[j00]

I've played with SB with him as both scum and town a lot and I don't know what his meta is but maybe I'm just dumb

in any case I can't make a case on him based on meta I'm automatically disregarding all meta cases on him too since you're pointing to a bunch of arguments that I've never noticed in past games

[Vhaltz]

Eh, I let that escalate a lot more than I should've. I apologize.

I can see how you'd understand the BBM/SB thing the way you did now, although I still think that their reasonings were entirely different and that BBM's followup was making reference to another thing SB posted that wasn't the same reason why he voted Manix.

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

Doing this for now and going back to reread Manix and Paper. I also haven't really paid attention to Scarlet's recent post yet.

[Vhaltz]

although I still think that their reasonings were entirely different and that BBM's followup was making reference to another thing SB posted that wasn't the same reason why he voted Manix.

I just checked back and this actually never happened, I thought the comment on the end-of-phase thing and the reasoning for voting Manix were in different posts and I'm just really dumb for posting from thread memory.