Big NOCers - Game Over

[j00]

it read to me like eclipse was annoyed town who was tired of Vhaltz using meta for everything - is that much different to you j00?

The thing about Vhaltz using meta was that he made it the foundation of his cases, I voted him because that made his cases bad.

I agree that it felt like eclipse voted him because she was tired of his meta, but her explanation was that he got "passive" and suddenly started to avoid Kaoz, which sounds like an excuse. If the meta really bothered her he's been doing it all game, she could've voted him for it earlier.

No one really seems interested in voting her, so I'll switch, but I'm not buying the Paperblade case currently. SB and Vhaltz are the only ones who sounds like they want to lynch him, while eclipse is voting for consolidation. He's also been busy, but his reads make more sense than Manix's even if they're pretty vague. I'd lynch Manix over him unless he comes back with a magnificent read post.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

[SB.]

What don't you buy about the Paperblade case? Your Manix vote looks more like it's there because he been able to explain himself due to activity etc rather than you think he's scum too?

refa you've been staring at the thread forever post something

[SB.]

like, you've been talking on skype since you've come online so can you just post something to say you're reading?

[j00]

I already said I found Manix bad, but his obvious apathy makes me unsure, so I'd like to hear more from him. Paperblade is also blatantly lazy and has vague reads, but his comments makes sense unlike Manix's Refa case.

Not convinced on either of them, just find Manix worse. He had the Refa case from early in the game, while Paperblade blankly stated he hadn't got any good reads for a while which drew fire from you. If scum was unable to come up with a good case early on I figure they'd just lurk or provide a flawed one.

[Refa]

Fine SB. Note that I haven't read Pages 10 and beyond. I know, best villager.

(1) it was a statement, there was no indication of what you thought from it. it wasn't even a suspicion.
here's the quote in question. how does one determine what you actually think from that? it's kind of like how i stated something about conq's claim, and look at the shit i got from that.

(2) missing the point. irrelevant of what i think about your case, from your POV you should be reevaluating your lynch priority when new information came to the table, even if it doesn't change. it took prodding to make you even say it, and it makes it look like you're trying to non-effort that vote. which is what scum like to do.

1) Yeah, because it was ED1 and all I saw was a post with a lot of fluff in it. I couldn't tell if he was tryhard town or scummy from it, although judging from his lack of activity since, I'd advocate a vig on him if he doesn't do anything before the end of the phase.

2) If I was seriously bothered by eclipse other than her role, then yeah. But I wasn't. Still not seeing why I should have reevaluated my lynch priority.

Refa: not getting investigated by role cops isn't worth outing ninja IMO, since alignment cops should scan based on behavior rather than claims that doesn't indicated alignment.

Fair enough, I didn't think of that at the time.

Refa: You not having many reads kind of goes with the fact that a large chunk of your posts are fluff or questions that don't really give reads, which is something I tend to see in your scumgame more than if you're town. Your suspicion on me too looks more like it's due to the fact you disagree with what I'm saying rather than you think that it's scummy.

More in depth with that stuff: I already said I was fine with Manix's follow-up post and "why are you voting for the same person you suspected earlier" is dumb because two players can be suspicious independent of each other. Scum!Raymond taking his vote off of Vhaltz could be explained by him struggling to bs a case on him any longer and not wanting to get called out for that.

##Unvote

##Vote: Raymond

1) Not really? So here's my ISO. Looking at the posts after the game actually started, my first one states my reads on Manix and Vhaltz, with my second content post after that stating continued suspicion on Manix and then you.

2) My suspicion on you boils down to the following: Your votes are inconsistent with what you're saying with (regarding Paperblade), your claim to have dropped your suspicion on Manix just seems really weird (like why would your suspicions have dropped just now) and well inconsistent with your actions, and I will admit that the final part is just me disagreeing with your vote on Scarlet. While you explained the former, I'm going to have to agree with Scarlet that it seems hypocritical of you to criticize him for making a pressure vote when you did the same thing with Paperblade. Can you explain what was worse about his pressure vote? PEDit: You did explain, but I'm confused now. Like I've done empty unvotes before as town and you've said that you didn't think I'd do that as scum, what makes you think Scarlet would?

3) It's not just that but that you did unvote Manix earlier. If you were fine with his follow up post then, why did you need to wait till recently to say "well now I'm no longer suspicious of him"? Eh, maybe I'm just nitpicking, but it bothers me.

I agree with SB wrt Refa's latest vote being based on opinion disagreements rather than actual scumhunting. The wall of text he put out that didn't really achieve anything reads-wise aside from poking at SB, and while he mentions being not-so-suspicious of Clipsey and Manix anymore as a justification for the switch he doesn't really drop them either.

SB being more aggressive than usual is more likely to make him town that's on a roll after his recent games than scum not caring where their vote goes. SB!scum tends to have a harder time making up cases on townies so I don't think his reads would flow as genuinely as they have so far, nor do I think he would've been switching around so much. Nothing feels knee-jerky enough to come from scum!SB and I've found myself agreeing with several of his reads so far so I don't really want to lynch him D1 unless something exceptional happens at deadline or w/e.

1) I'm not particularly suspicious of eclipse (null read), if I didn't make that obvious. Yes, I'm still suspicious of Manix, my justification for the switch was that a lot of my issues with his content was ED1 which I find harder to analyze than later content.

2) How has SB been on a roll, his last town game was GAME OF MAFIA CHAMPIONS? But seriously, I don't remember SB having a hard time making up cases on townies. We are talking about SB and not Paperblade, right?

[j00]

Like you have Kaoz who never even gave any reads at all and disappeared. If Paperblade's busy scum then it'd be better and less tiring for him to do the same. Stating in thread that you haven't got any reads is begging for trouble.

[Vhaltz]

while Paperblade blankly stated he hadn't got any good reads for a while which drew fire from you. If scum was unable to come up with a good case early on I figure they'd just lurk or provide a flawed one.

The way you're spinning this around is WIFOM though. Just saying "I have no good reads" is more beneficial from a scum perspective because people will usually take it at face value allowing you to coast by on minimal content. whereas town has less reasons to bring it up because it has negative utility, people are going to feel much less pressure from your vote if you say that.

@Refa Your reasons to switch off of Manix/Eclipse weren't the problem, the problem was voting SB for what read like just disagreements as opposed to anything you actually found scummy. I'd appreciate it if you caught up and updated your thoughts even if it means condensing your opinions into one-liners.

[Vhaltz]

What I mean to say with the "I have no good reads" thing is that it's null. I wouldn't assume somebody is scum for saying it but it would also be bad to assume that they're town based on that either.

[j00]

It's not like I'm convinced Paper is town either, he hasn't really been around much. I just don't think he's the worst of the inactives.

[Refa]

@Refa Your reasons to switch off of Manix/Eclipse weren't the problem, the problem was voting SB for what read like just disagreements as opposed to anything you actually found scummy. I'd appreciate it if you caught up and updated your thoughts even if it means condensing your opinions into one-liners.

What I found SB scummy for:

His Paperblade vote being inconsistent with his actions

His claim to have dropped his suspicion on Manix pages after he well, actually did.

I thought his Scarlet vote was bad.

Now, can people tell me why they think Paperblade is scummy? Meta read and all yeah, but he's not acting like I'd expect Scum!Paperblade to act. Or Scum!Anyone, really? Haha, Scum!Anyone abbreviates to SA, I'm a genius.

[Vhaltz]

If you're going to bring up that thing about Paper as a towntell how is it any different that Manix blatantly admitted to forgetting their reasoning to vote Refa?

Manix's posts are just entirely ???, if he continues to play this way in D2 I won't oppose lynching him for it, but at this point he feels like just another crapshoot lynch that's easy for scum to push and I don't feel very good about it considering that the general suspicion on him hasn't dropped at any point throughout the day.

[SB.]

Considering Refa wants to lynch me, it's kind of interesting how he missed the Paperblade case in my post?

How was my (earlier) Paperblade vote inconsistent with my actions? I exaggerated it a bit with the vote to try and get more of a reaction out of him but he was still a serious suspicion. It's hardly inconsistent.

And I dropped my vote on Manix, that doesn't mean that I immediately thought he was town again? There was no implication of that whatsoever, so I don't like that push at all.

[Vhaltz]

Actually I have like 40~ minutes before I shut off, can I have an updated case on Manix? I remember Conq's case as the only real instance of weighing scum intent in his posts and even then I'd much rather lynch Paper atm.

Refa do you still think SB is likely to be scum? have you read anything since you disappeared and have you gotten any newer reads from it?

[Refa]

Reponses to Strege's response below:

-Hence the PEdit. I'm not criticizing Manix for not having an original read. I'm saying that past town games he generally tunnels a person or two and isn't as laid back as he is here. Granted, Manix did bring up a fair point of his play possibly changing, but yeah that's where I was coming from.

-The only material against Manix is the first response, and the others are just you know, responses to what he said? Not everything I say to Manix has to be me calling him scummy, you know...

-Because I'd be suspicious of anyone with her role, regardless of who it was?

-I wanted to know if my thoughts regarding eclipse were just me being overly paranoid or if there was some truth in them. Hence why I asked someone who was in a similar situation to myself.

-That's not really fuel for my scumread? Like I don't know what else to say. I don't find him scummy for pointing that out...

-SB mentioned it, I believe. Already commented on that, so will avoid redundancy.

Also my reads, man. I feel like I have way more townreads than scumreads (BBM, Conq, j00, Paperblade, Vhaltz). If anyone wants me to explain these, go ahead and ask, just know that I am going to ISO Paperblade considering he's the leading wagon and all.

Also apparently Bal was prodded which I don't think he'd get if he was lurking scum? Just my two cents there, not sure if he'd be the best vig target (don't tell the vig who to vig, Re-shut up)...

Considering Refa wants to lynch me, it's kind of interesting how he missed the Paperblade case in my post?

How was my (earlier) Paperblade vote inconsistent with my actions? I exaggerated it a bit with the vote to try and get more of a reaction out of him but he was still a serious suspicion. It's hardly inconsistent.

And I dropped my vote on Manix, that doesn't mean that I immediately thought he was town again? There was no implication of that whatsoever, so I don't like that push at all.

I wasn't referring to you specifically when I asked why we should lynch Paperblade?

Because it was weaker than your previous votes overall. I concede that your explanation made sense, though.

That's not really the point? Like you just said that you were no longer suspicious of Manix later on, does that mean you thought he was town? And why so?

@Vhaltz, making post w/current reads in a moment. I don't think SB is the most likely to be scum.

[SB.]

I never said he was town? iirc I said he was going to drop him because I wanted to see what his posts were like later on and I don't have a huge problem with them so?

Prims still prods deliberately lurking scum @ the Bal point.

Is the Paper townread meta, or ?????

[Refa]

Fair enough on your first point.

Well, I was assuming Balcerzak would still be active elsewhere if he was scum, but I suppose that wouldn't necessarily be the case?

Yeah, it's mostly meta, hence why I need to ISO him (and read the cases on him more thoroughly, too).

[SB.]

I don't really think he's clear on meta, what makes you think that exactly?

[Refa]

^^I never said he was clear? That's just why I'm townreading him.

Waste of Time, Life, & Energy Reads Post by Refa

(I didn't comment everyone because I feel like a lot of them would be redundant and pointless at this stage; if you want elaboration on a specific player go ahead though)

Confirmed Town

Refa- Duh.

Leaning Town

Conqueror

Vhaltz

j00

Paperblade- Hasn't really been playing to his scum meta, already talked enough about this though so yeah.

BigBangMeteor

Null

Scarlet- I'd say he's generally been towny, but I have a hard time reading him and I feel like he's only focused on a select few players? I mean, that's not really scummy but it is harder to get a read on him because of that.

Strege

Balcerzak

Kaoz

SB- Mostly because his recent responses and activity have been alright, nothing really particularly stands out as scummy. Not in leaning town because of prior suspicions.

Scum

Manix- I think a lot of my issues with him have been covered before by other more eloquent people (like j00). The reason why he's not above eclipse (below, scummier, w/e) is because of real life consequence issues which is understandable enough.

eclipse- Before anyone complains, nothing to do with her role. I feel like she's spent a lot of time talking about gameplay rather than scumhunting. Like she votes SB for a forced case, which is OK for ED1. Votes me for bad logic, which I don't think I can comment on without bias so I won't; it's not like I'm skipping over something supremely scummy. But then she talks a lot without really doing much of anything? That's the impression I'm getting. And her Vhaltz vote just seems really bad to me...And she votes Paperblade despite her only prior mention of him being asking him for reads. Despite specifically saying she'd reread him. And not wanting to commit a case that she half remembers. Her vote just feels really forced overall.

##Unvote

##Vote: eclipse

[Conqueror]

Like you have Kaoz who never even gave any reads at all and disappeared. If Paperblade's busy scum then it'd be better and less tiring for him to do the same. Stating in thread that you haven't got any reads is begging for trouble.

Well, Manix just did the same thing with his last post, so. >_>

Deadline's in like 3 or 4 hours, can we have votals? From what I can tell there are 2 votes on Manix and 3 on Paperblade. I don't particuarly want to lynch j00 or SB.

I could probably switch to Paperblade, but lemme reread him first. I have another hour and after that I have a 50/50 chance of being back before deadline.

[Conqueror]

What's Paperblade's scum/town meta?

[Refa]

Paperblade has 4 votes on him, I think. Even if we both switched to him, I think we'd need another vote to pull off a lynch? Is anyone here?

Dunno about his town meta, but his scum meta is super lazy and he tends to bus his scumbuddies.

Also rereading Paperblade.

[Vhaltz]

I'm aware I haven't talked about anybody else for a while but I don't think it matters atm because my vote is staying where it is for the night, I'll talk about other people in not too long.

Can't really put my finger on why without it sounding really dumb but I like the recent Refa posts, lynch Paper imo. Shutting off now

[Vhaltz]

screw you for appearing right when I leave Conq =/

later

[Paperblade]

I'm inventor, I'm not telling what my items do

[j00]

Manix admitted to forgetting his reasons for the Refa vote really late, and by that point it was obvious that he had messed up. Paperblade started this game by saying he didn't have reads.

None of these are good tells I admit, arguing about lynching inactives D1 is arguing about lesser evils.