Big NOCers - Game Over

[Kaoz]

Note: This post is pretty much a prod dodge, I currently have less time for this than I had anticipated and just kinda skimmed stuff since my last post. Hopefully will get better next week. Also won't be back for like 15 hours after this post, maybe longer.

Kaoz: wrt Manix his overexplaining felt like he was getting defensive over an RVS strong case. The general way he phrased the question in the second part of the response post sets off alarms for me, it's like "what was I supposed to do" when I don't really feel like there was a need for that? Also, why ask Paperblade and not someone else who hasn't been around like Strege or Conqueror?

There's no real reason why I asked Paperblade specifically, it just kinda popped in my head while I was writing, so I went with it.

Not a big fan of Kaoz's drive-by on Vhaltz. Even if BBM said he wouldn't be around for an extended period of time, what does that have to do with Vhaltz thinking what he did was scummy? The Paperblade question feels like fluff given that I can't see why he would have more insight into Manix/BBM/SB than anyone else posting at the time.

If he thought both BBM and X was scummy, it makes more sense to me to apply pressure to X in that situation assuming X is around, rather than a guy who won't be back to respond for half the day. Hence why I asked him to clarify.

I never said that Paperblade had a better insight than anyone else, I still felt like hearing his specifically.

@Vhaltz

Saw your request, can't comply at the moment due to skimming like I said at the beginning. Also, gotta run now.

[SB.]

ok i'm getting this post out because i keep getting distracted.

Raymond: I consider it scummy because you just unvoted for no reason, when you could've waited until you'd made your next case. Instead you felt the need to drop your Vhaltz vote before you had the chance to re-evaluate your reads? That's why I find you scummy, not for making the vote in the first place.

With changing my vote, I don't consistently say who I find to be more suspicious because that just isn't how I play. And I did feel a bit suspicious of Paperblade, or else I wouldn't have placed the vote in the first place.

I will say the third part though was a hypothetical thing in response to Refa rather than saying that you were definitely doing it, though.

I don't really get Vhaltz's townread on me? Aggression when pushing cases is something I feel like I'm okay at as scum (usually it's on buddies though, I guess.) It also feels like I haven't been scum in forever despite it only being in Hard NOCs so I don't really feel like that's correct anyway, but I guess you have no way of knowing that so whatever. You can't bring up scum meta on j00 anyway because she's never town to begin with.

The difference between town!me and scum!me is general activity levels and the fact that I struggle to make cases on people who I know are town because I know a lot of them are bad so I end up bussing a lot more than I used to do.

Don't like Kaoz's last post just because he's gone for way too long without saying who he thinks is scum.

[Vhaltz]

=/

Unlikely that Kaoz is faking the lack of time. He was originally going to take a break for this couple of months and I didn't expect to get to play with him again until summer or so.

Given the circumstances I'll probably post some meta on him near deadline if he doesn't pop back in again by then or I think he's likely to be scum, since he kind of likes killing me N1 when he rolls scum.

Actually rereads will have to wait for a little. I'm unsure about j00 now mostly due to "I don't think either of us feel very strongly about case anymore though." sounding off and potentially manipulative, I'll take a break and try to come back in a state where I'm not constantly sucking at reading things hopefully.

[Scarlet]

Speaking of Scarlet, he has continued to be apathetic in his recent posts and I honestly don't know what to make of them,

How exactly am I being apathetic?

Raymond: I consider it scummy because you just unvoted for no reason, when you could've waited until you'd made your next case. Instead you felt the need to drop your Vhaltz vote before you had the chance to re-evaluate your reads? That's why I find you scummy, not for making the vote in the first place.

Again hypocrisy and misrepping in the same line.

I think I stated pretty clearly in my #133 that I felt he was being much more reasonable in his more recent posts (implying that I feel better about him if I really need to spell that out).

And again, you have also "unvoted for no reason". Twice, in fact. So it's okay when you do it "because that's just how you play" but not when you perceive others as doing it?

And another jab at someone else. SB, is there even anyone you currently think isn't scummy?

[BBM]

##Unvote there's no real point to holding the vote down at this point. Manix has been a little forgettable but he's busy and I'm worse so shrug. Still keeping an eye on him just on gut/meta because I feel like town Manix would have been a little more reactionary against my vote rather than trying to appease me but idk.

@Vhaltz- I don't see how the stuff I said about Conq's role while I was talking to Manix was a different argument. The point of talking about that was to back up my point that it was just fluff, since Conq's role didn't matter at that stage.

##Vote: j00

She seems overly hung up on the reaction test by Vhaltz, and even though she admitted right at the beginning that the reaction test was bad but not scummy, kept talking about it until just a few hours ago. Recently she said that Vhaltz is scummy for having too much gut/meta and not enough logic, but then says that meta isn't scummy, it just makes his cases weak. But she said earlier that weak cases are scummy so it just seems like a justification for calling meta inherently scummy even though it isn't. Her entire case on Vhaltz just gives me the feeling of an easy votepark; not exactly sure how to explain it.

She's also talked about other people very little, and even then mostly in relation to Vhaltz, like talking about Vhaltz's read on SB.

Other people: I think SB//Eclipse are town, kind of iffy about Refa and Raymond.

I don't have a problem with the stuff Refa is saying, really, although I disagree with his Eclipse case, but his tone just seems really passive-aggressive? When he called Eclipse's roleclaim "wolfy as fuck" I originally thought he was joking, but apparently he wasn't. I kind of feel that scum!Refa would just back out of the Eclipse push by pointing to his usage of "wolfy" rather than "scummy" as indicative of a joke, so keeping at it makes me feel that he's more likely to be misconceived town.

Raymond's posts bothered me a bit but I don't really know why. But I kind of had the same feeling about his posts in School of Hard NOCs and he was town there so maybe it's just me idk.

back to work now; hopefully another post will come in less than 12 hours.

[Strege]

@strege:

The "deal on Manix" at that point was making a case of him mentioning Conq's claim, the whole thing was null to me because while Manix mentioning it seemed unecessary, I don't think it was anything to make a case on.

Why did you ask Manix about Conq?

Strege: What do you think of BBM and Manix at the moment? You bring up their interactions but don't mention a read on either of them. I also kind of feel like your j00 vote is more like pointing things out rather than explaining why they're scummy to you?

Those were the entirety of my comments on them, not just their interactions. I thought those events were null, but holistic and possibly significant to future reads, and saying "these have been covered" was my deadpan way of communicating that they weren't my most exciting thoughts.

Currently, I'm leaning town on BBM because I don't think he'd leave so many points of contention open in his last post knowing he wouldn't be around -- he's typically more controlling anyway. I think Manix is kinda scummy right now because his nitpicking in posts 156 and the end of 114 seem like filler.

Regarding j00, I thought he was pushing an empty case on Vhaltz and not much else. I didn't explain my first question about the "deal on Manix" because it would almost defeats the purpose of asking (and it still does). I still don't think the jump from "this reaction test was dumb and useless" to "this reaction test is scummy" makes sense, considering he even acknowledges "a lot of reaction tests are people doing dumb stuff that mainly catches noob town, and sometimes the tests are so incomprehensible you get shit on from town and scum alike" in post 144. In post 164 I think he makes a poor distinction between "tone" and "gut", and later discredits Vhaltz for it as well. Basically I don't think j00's case on Vhaltz is good, and his other reads are one-liners against Refa and SB.

I'll post at least about Refa, then might have to leave for a while. I'll improve my activity in 18 hours.

[Strege]

OK, I see what you mean in regards to Manix's vote on Conqer. Yeah, I don't really get why BBM thought Manix's vote was based on Conqer's claim (PEdit- apparently Manix mentioned his vote did a thing, so that was probably what BBM was referring too), he should explain his reasoning there. I'm more bothered by Manix than BBM in this regard because all of his early votes have been for the express purpose of making wagons (specifically, his votes on Conq/you) which just seems a little too easy. I remember town!Manix being more overzealous to catch scum and generally sticking pretty hard to his votes.

-- BBM was posting under the stated assumption that Manix's vote wasn't based on Conq's claim. Manix also wagon-built when the only point of discussion was himself, so criticizing him for not developing an original read with barely any content seems unfair?

[...]

-Fair enough regarding why you were overexplaining, but honestly I'm still not a fan of your initial reasoning. Why did you need to create wagons? What was the purpose, it certainly didn't make either of the people you were voting effort more.

-Because those were my thoughts on it? Seriously, that's like asking why I mention anything that's not directly relevant to my vote. Since Strege questioned why I didn't do anything further with my Balcerzak suspicion too, it's because well he hasn't done anything else and what I was suspicious of in the first place was lesser than who I was voting for.

-OK, let's see what happened (fair enough on the passive aggressive thing though, I'll try to be less so in the future).

--This also seems like empty material against Manix (if it is material against him). The first and last points more clearly, and the middle one because I asked the same question Manix and apparently don't find me scummy.

[...]

-Like yeah, I find her role suspicious, but I wasn't really bothered by eclipse until my whole exchange with her.

-Why would I need to reevaluate my priorities when they were the same? Nothing eclipse did bothered me as much as you. You can't complain that my eclipse case sucked and then be like "wow, why didn't Refa change his vote, seems like he had something going there".

--Isn't finding her role suspicious equal to finding her suspicious? If it isn't, why did you mention it? I'm curious about your thoughts here in general.

[...]

We don't really, I was just curious considering her suspicions applied to him as well.

--I still don't get it. eclipse was suspicious of someone for something that PB (and you) also did? Why does that make PB the person to talk to about it? Give me a reason to think this isn't just a way of getting PB to push someone for you. :P

What would you expect me to have reads on at the time of that post? I stated a suspicion on Manix (yeah, sheeped from you) and Balcerzak, and said that I disagreed with the votes on Vhaltz who was the other big wagon at the time (and still is, really).

--Fair. When I commented on your reads I also thought they were a bit sparse, but that might be too hasty considering how early it was in the game. The fact that I also mentioned this makes it weird that this is fuel for an SB scumread though.

I don't see how Paperblade's initial post comes out as forced. Also this just seems like a weaker case than your other two suspicions (Vhaltz and me) overall. Also how are you dropping your Manix suspicion just now? Clearly you were trusting him enough to not only take your vote off of him but also vote the same person he was, so it comes across as really weird that your suspicions have been only recently alleviated.

--Someone mentioned this but voting for someone that a former scumread voted for isn't bad -- associative reads without flips are supposed to be bad or something. Also, it was a scumread from like page 4. I agree with the comment on SB's vote priority though.

[...]

So yeah I think Refa's material against Manix is contrived and posts relating to eclipse are shady, but the SB read makes fine sense and some of my initial concerns were addressed. Personally I haven't read enough into SB but would lean a little scummy on him; I need a little more time to read through what feels like apathy to me.

j00 > Refa >= Manix > SB

[eclipse]

Post 154. Any and all scum benefit can be explained as "to fuck with the town". I really don't like that line of reasoning, as scum can adapt their play to their additional knowledge.

Refa: not getting investigated by role cops isn't worth outing ninja IMO, since alignment cops should scan based on behavior rather than claims that doesn't indicated alignment.

I think this is semi-relevant to me, but I have no idea how to parse this.

Raymond: Uhhh. . .rather than say "your arguments are hypocritical/misrepping me/etc.", I'd prefer it if you could explain why instead. It's a minor pet peeve of mine. You got to it in that set, so thanks.

Speaking of Scarlet, he has continued to be apathetic in his recent posts and I honestly don't know what to make of them, SB's comment wrt scum!Scarlet empty unvoting when he felt like he couldn't BS a case anymore is good but not something I'd vote him over atm (I can think of an alternate explanation from town!POV).

I can think of quite a few things to describe Scarlet, and "apathetic" isn't one of them (even before he ninja'd you).

The rest of 162. I get the feeling that this is a case of "this person agrees with my views so therefore I think he's town," which I think is weak play. I really don't agree with using meta this much.

Here's post 164. Weak cases can come from more sources than just scummy, including being distracted. Immediately classifying Vhaltz's cases as scummy bothers me a wee bit.

Meta. META. Argh, STOP! Meta is one of the tools used in a game, and should not be used to the point where everything is a goddamn nail. At this point, there's enough content in the game to derive reads, without relying on meta. Ugh, this is irritating me. . .once my head clears, I'll decide where my vote goes.

[Paperblade]

I'm trying to read isos using the add-on Euklyd posted and I keep clicking on people's names instead of the post number from the topic list which is making this take much longer than it needs to ;_;

[Paperblade]

Anyway, this is my fresh off of "I woke up, had some breakfast, browsed around, and caught up" update, so I'll try to be popping back and forth in here between stages of SRW:OG2 to help keep the pace of the game flowing, but for now I don't have a whole lot more to contribute.

Balcerzak never came back after this post. Considering that the post already wasn't the most impressive quality I can't say I'm very happy with him.

Strege's confusing Baldrick and Balcerzak is Interesting to me.

Strege, why did you feel it necessary to note that your Balcerzak vote was RVS when you unvoted him?

Raymond has always been pretty abrasive and hostile from what I remember. I also have to agree with his question to Vhaltz, how is he being apathetic?

One thing that bugs me about Manix on reread is that his votes aren't really because he finds people scummy, he's just "building wagons" until he jumps on Refa. Because of this I think eclipse calling Manix "nitpicky" is a bit iffy, since his long defense posts came after she said that.

Conq - now that you're here, a question: Does your role work if you're NOT lynched? I'd rather lynch someone other than you, as I don't think you're scum at this point in the game.

this is a weird question imo

I feel better about SB now but as he said he tends to push his scumbuddies (Haze mentioned this to me during Hard NOCs and I've definitely noticed it from my little bit of reading previous games), so we'll see.

I'm a bit unsure of what to make of j00. I think everyone hounding her for the reaction test thing is a bit unfair, since she was having a back and forth with Vhaltz and it takes two to tango.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47118&page=4#entry3021950

I dislike this post. Are both BBM and Manix bugging you? Do you think they are scum distancing? He drops this train of thought I feel like, so I'm unsure of what he thinks.

I feel like Vhaltz is just throwing shit at everyone and seeing what sticks, he's expressed suspicion at BBM, Manix, j00, Raymond, eclipse, Kaoz. He even 180'd his "I think Refa is unlikely to be scum" and put him second on his list after defending him a bit.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Vhaltz

[Conqueror]

ITT I learn that Prims got together a bunch of mafia players who don't have time to play.

I am going to get to this thread a bit later than usual today due to stuff running over time. But some quick stuff I wanted to say after skimming.

Not sure why j00 is voting Vhaltz since it looks like in his last post he basically sorta dropped it, and from what I can tell he decided a lot of it was playstyle? The thing is I've been in a pretty similar position before as town where I've had to back hard off a read on D1 and it's sometime hard to adjust. So I wanna see where he goes from here.

I don't really get the basis of the Refa wagon; his latest big post was pretty good. I still think the initial eclipse/Refa clash came about because of mafia theory disagreements.

"Exactly four" was me trying to play with words and failing. >=4 is fine.

Kaoz not being around is sadface, but okay. Does anyone know if Balcerzak has a history of lurking as scum/have difficulty making cases as scum?

I'll be back in a few. A lot of the cases I'm seeing in the past few pages seem pretty reactionary so it's hard for me to tell if they're people getting mad at perceived misrepresentations or something else.

[Vhaltz]

I got the impression that Scarlet wasn't really putting much into his ED1 posts? There are people who tried to build cases even if they were grasping and there were people who just threw a few questions around and called it a day. Scarlet felt like the second type up until he posted his case on SB, it's probably an issue of barely having seen him play before and you people already having an already-conceived image of what he's like.

@Scarlet, what do you think of people who aren't SB? iirc deadline is not that far away and you could be suspecting literally anybody else at this point.

I mulled over j00 and the wording for "I don't think either of us feel very strongly about case anymore though." is kind of unlikely to come town? how could she possibly interpret where I was standing on her before I posted my #174? None of my posts really indicated dropping her except maybe the one line in #166 about making a reading misake, and even then I was still pushing her after that, so ???. I feel like I may have let myself be manipulated there.

SB should reread my reasons for the townread and his second to last paragraph in #177 and realize that they're the same.

@Paper

I don't really get what you're trying to say there. Am I throwing dirt out and testing out the waters to see if people agree with my cases? In that case couldn't I have just stuck with my Kaoz case? Otherwise the case is "Vhaltz suspected a lot of people" which is ??? because I'm actively mulling over mafia (when not on the computer), rereading and updating my reads more often than everyone else just by virtue of having more time than most.

Either way, I never really suspected eclipse? I asked for meta on her to confirm that reactionary!eclipse =! scum!eclipse because her posts read genuine aside from her last post in reaction to Refa where she voted him. It was an overly strong reaction to suspicion that's likely to come from scum, but probably equally likely to come from town!eclipse if I bothered to check her meta. This isn't really a strong townread so I haven't listed it in my priorities, same with other minor gutreads on Conq/BBM.

Other people (Manix, BBM, Kaoz, Scarlet) I haven't followed up on because my reads on them have either changed to null (first two) or are pending on newer content (last two). I could explain where I stand exactly wrt my nullreads on Manix and Scarlet but I'd like to avoid talking about Kaoz if possible. With deadline coming somewhat soon I'll say I don't want to lynch him atm, but that's all.

[Vhaltz]

I mentioned this to Prims when I accepted the invitation but didn't say anything about it in-thread I think. I have some of the more important practicals throughout this week and will have to take a 5-hour trip on top of that during one of Thursday or Friday, so my activity will be pretty compromised for the next four-five days.

I don't know when I'm going to be able to check in again (maybe not until 6pm tomorrow, which is like 7 hours to deadline or so?) so I'm not really sure what to do with my vote tbh, when I started writing that large post I figured I'd leave it on Refa for a while longer before going to bed to see what he had to say about it when he came back and figured I'd work from there and other newer posts. Now it's getting really late here and he just isn't on around this time or hasn't appeared, and not much else has happened either. Most of the posts by Refa I've been okay with and I only don't really like his vote on SB based on opinion differences instead of actually scummy things, which I may be biased against because I think SB is town, and it isn't entirely unbelievable from town!Refa. My read on j00 feels really weak atm since it hinges on "scumslip wording" only and I don't really think anything else she did that I was harping on her over before couldn't have come from town.

I'm going try to refresh my memory on everybody real fast to see if anything comes to mind, but I should pretty much be in bed already. If I don't come up with anything I might just sheep SB on Scarlet. He hasn't really done anything all phase other than tunneling on SB based on misreps and hypocrisy, it may not actually be alignment-indicative depending on his usual playstyle but I don't have time to look into that atm and I don't think I have anything better.

[Strege]

Strege's confusing Baldrick and Balcerzak is Interesting to me.

--How so?

Strege, why did you feel it necessary to note that your Balcerzak vote was RVS when you unvoted him?

--Because I'd been absent for a while since RVS so it saves people the time of going back to check if it was a legit vote. I've tried to specify who it is that I'm unvoting for a few games for a similar purpose. Maybe other people don't need it, but I have the memory of a goldfish and know I'd appreciate it.

[eclipse]

Vhaltz. . .can you PLEASE come up with something that doesn't rely on meta?

[Vhaltz]

Why should my scumhunting methods be dictated by your pet peeves?

I can leave 100% of meta arguments out of my posts if it's going to be THAT terrible for several players that they won't talk about anything else as long as somebody is saying "meta", but it will come at the consequence of incomplete trains of thought and reasonings that are most likely not going to be solid by themselves or that I will have to force significantly, which is just going to end up muddling up everybody's reads. Pick your poison?

I'm probably going to keep my vote on Refa because :second guessing:

and because of some informed interpretation of Scarlet's general behavior that I just read and that I won't mention but should be readily available a few posts above to anybody who wants to know.

[Vhaltz]

Like ffs.

I'd really appreciate it if people didn't instantly assume that I'm retarded and that my cases are dumb/bad/wrong just because I heavily rely on context+meta to evaluate whether an action by somebody that is widely regarded as scummy is likely to come from town or unlikely to come from town given their probable mindset at the time. If you want to go ahead and use universal scumtells without looking past your nose then that's fine by me but let me do my scumhunting the way I feel is actually going to catch scum instead of trying to force me into doing it your way just because it's more comfortable for you.

I'm not actually angry and don't actually hold any personal issues over this but I still want to word this as strongly as I have it because I feel like this is a big issue. Just look back at Game of Mafia Champions and see how much good it did for the game when some players tried to strongarm other players into playing the game by their rules.

[Vhaltz]

Despite what I just said I don't feel like my scumreads are very good this game, but w/e

Gonna try to sleep now

[eclipse]

You don't HAVE to, but your reliance on meta makes your cases look really weak. The arguments in this game should take precedence over what you might predict based off of what you've seen in the past - circumstances change, which means what you expect will most likely change. For example, this post comes across as extremely passive - moreso than everything else (which reads mostly neutral, with the exception of your interaction with j00, which comes across as slightly aggressive). You've also become more passive about Kaoz as the game has worn on - see from here to here all the way to here and here. I don't see why we should purposely avoid anyone in particular - if they come up as a topic, why not discuss it?

That last block of text used exactly zero meta on you, yet I was able to bring out a couple of things that pinged me. I'd say the passiveness in your last wall, and your suggestion to avoid a particular player, is my strongest case against you.

##Unvote

##Vote: Vhaltz

IIRC, this is about the time you go to bed, so I'd like a proper response when you wake up. I won't object to a Refa lynch, and I'm not sure whether or not I'll be here for phase end.

[j00]

Vhaltz: You're probably reading too much into "I don't think either of us feel very strongly about case anymore though.", what I meant was that we're far beyond the initial BBM/Manix dispute, and I always was null on that and you don't seem to have a strong opinion on that any longer either.

Basically I don't think I'm getting anywhere with your case, we're differing in playstyle and frankly your persistence on using meta is making me less convinced you're scum. You're drawing a lot of negative attention basing cases on meta, but you don't seem to care and I'd believe your scumbuddies would've told you to tone it down by now.

eclipse: Weak cases often come from scum since they have to make up cases, if you see a case with bad reasoning you will usually attack it. Of course they might just be bad town cases, but if you should still push a case if it's bad.

strege: I asked Manix about Conq because I was wondering if he had any reasoning behind mentioning Conq's claim. Seems like he didn't, which really makes that post unecessesary.

about Manix both he and BBM feel off to me since they're unusually inactive, but BBM comes back and justifies his unvote from the end of RVS, which I don't see the point of? Neither him or Manix has been around much, saying you're removing your vote from him makes it seem like you really thought Manix was scum because he mentioned Conq's claim.

He also doesn't have any proper reads besides me, he says Refa and Raymond are iffy but merely waffles on them saying "nah, they might be town".

His case on me isn't that convincing either, when I say meta in general is null is because it's usually a matter of playstyle, but that Vhaltz was using it in a bad way by relying on it too much. Context and train of thought is nice but he was building entire reads based on meta. He also sums up my case with "Her entire case on Vhaltz just gives me the feeling of an easy votepark; not exactly sure how to explain it." which is just gut feeling.

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

[Vhaltz]

Because I'm not actually scumreading Kaoz anymore. I realized a few hours after posting my case that his post makes perfect sense from Kaoz!town perspective because Paper and I are (I'm 90% sure) the two people in this thread that he has the most contact with as of late, and it makes sense for town!Kaoz, who inherently has troubles getting reads as town, to start looking for reads where he knows best.

I could've not said it and not commented on Kaoz whatsoever until he came back to see what he did with the general suspicion on him but you guys have to ruin pretty much any chances of me getting better reads on people when it comes to stuff like this. If I say I would rather not talk about somebody, then at least wait until that somebody posts again before you hurry over to me with cattle prods demanding explanations because I'm intentionally withholding information.

It's not a matter of whether I can case somebody without using meta or not and your example is just aggressive for no reason other than to keep up an image that I just attacked to be able to keep the integrity of my play (when it comes to this, it is a problem). I can also bullshit all kinds of cases on people based on tells that people generally find acceptable, the thing is in that I'm not going to do it if I don't believe that a case built like that is actually being alignment-telling.

I'm leaving for good now, it's way too late.

[j00]

Not really feeling a Refa lynch, the only beef I had with him was about ninjaclipse, but he admitted himself that he didn't really find her behavior scummy.

Manix' case on him is rather weak, it's mainly build on his back and forth with eclipse and his statement on Bal only posting fluff, saying:

here's the quote in question. how does one determine what you actually think from that? it's kind of like how i stated something about conq's claim, and look at the shit i got from that.

When people call someone out on fluff it should be pretty clear that it is a bad thing? Mentioning Conq's claim is completely neutral and doesn't say anything, calling people out on fluff is clearly a criticism.

[Grace]

hello i am here

i have about an hour of break at uni, i will try and get some stuff done here in that time

@j00: the reason why i'm ("unusually") inactive was 1) I was away most of the weekend and i felt pretty shit for irl reasons when i got back on sunday, to which i needed time not focusing on mafia, and 2) i'm playing a game during uni, which means mafia is a lesser priority. i probably should have noted that sooner in thread but it slipped my mind.

[Grace]

noting that I still have uni stuff to do though in this break so shrug

[j00]

I asked for meta on her to confirm that reactionary!eclipse =! scum!eclipse because her posts read genuine aside from her last post in reaction to Refa where she voted him. It was an overly strong reaction to suspicion that's likely to come from scum, but probably equally likely to come from town!eclipse if I bothered to check her meta. This isn't really a strong townread so I haven't listed it in my priorities, same with other minor gutreads on Conq/BBM.

Because I'm not actually scumreading Kaoz anymore. I realized a few hours after posting my case that his post makes perfect sense from Kaoz!town perspective because Paper and I are (I'm 90% sure) the two people in this thread that he has the most contact with as of late, and it makes sense for town!Kaoz, who inherently has troubles getting reads as town, to start looking for reads where he knows best.

yeah I know I said I was gonna stop but this stuff is the reason why your meta cases are unhelpful. Asking stuff like "does eclipse usually react like that as scum" is a different wording of the question "is eclipse scummy", which doesn't even qualify as scumhunting.

and about Kaoz, even if he does weird stuff as town it's not smart to assume that he's town, you're letting people get away with a lot if you're not willing to question and criticize them when they're acting strange.