Big NOCers - Game Over

[Vhaltz]

crap I cut things off of that post along with my notes

Kaoz also pings me somewhat, his only post is laying low and his questioning of Paper and me feels like fluff.

@Vhaltz
1). Why are you voting BBM just after he declared that he won't be around for an extended period of time? 2). Was there literally no one else you could think of dropping a vote on at that time, or?

@Paperblade
What's your opinion on the Manix - BBM - SB interactions so far?

1) If I have a scumread on somebody I'm not going to keep myself from voting them just because they're away, having my vote there until I find something better isn't going to prevent me from looking into other people and switching my vote if I want to pressure somebody or think someone else is more likely to be scum.

2) he could've answered for himself by just going back and looking at what all had happened by the time I posted (only BBM/SB/Manix had participated out of RVS). The only thing I didn't explain was SB being null and discussing nullreads is a waste of time unless it's upon request.

Overall lines of questioning that I don't really see going anywhere wrt finding scum. I want Kaoz be more vocal about his reads starting now, even if it means reassessing them later if he changes his mind, I want to see thought processes and not just token questioning.

[Vhaltz]

@Anybody No offense meant, but is Clipsey generally reactionary like this as town? could I get a link to a game with eclipse!scum that isn't ITTD?

[eclipse]

Add "is also available to actually play, as opposed to being shoved in a weird time zone where I have to respond while everyone is asleep." Or you can drop the meta and make your own choice.

[SB.]

there's cy'or, but that's >100 pages so i dunno if you wanna read through all of that (other than that there's EO2 which she subbed out of early that went on recently. Masquerade would be a good example except anon accounts changed now so.)

I feel okay about eclipse because there's usually a lot more empty noise/non contribution in early scum!eclipse posts iirc, and her Refa case seems fine to me. If Refa is a tracker or something who thinks eclipse is scum for screwing up his role, he needs to remember why he got lynched in semi-precious (and not say anything if this is the case.)

[Paperblade]

hi bt

[eclipse]

I was your scumbuddy in Masquerade, SB. . .

[eclipse]

Wait, I am the best at reading. ;/

Actually, just about any recent game. I've been rolling scum way too much as of late.

[Vhaltz]

I apologize if I was hurtful, but I can either drop meta and be inherently suspicious of an OMGUS and be dumb by not evaluating things in their context or I can at least look through some past games briefly to get a general idea of what it actually means in relation to the player.

Saying "meta is bad and you shouldn't be using it" is a popular thing to say and it will be right if cases are made entirely on meta, but you guys use it either consciously or unconsciously all the time when figuring out whether some universal tells are going to be meaningful in telling somebody's alignment, and of course I'm going to want to check it myself.

[SB.]

Only in EO2 and Badass, and Badass was OC so it probably wasn't a good example of anything.

[eclipse]

I apologize if I was hurtful, but I can either drop meta and be inherently suspicious of an OMGUS and be dumb by not evaluating things in their context or I can at least look through some past games briefly to get a general idea of what it actually means in relation to the player.

Saying "meta is bad and you shouldn't be using it" is a popular thing to say and it will be right if cases are made entirely on meta, but you guys use it either consciously or unconsciously all the time when figuring out whether some universal tells are going to be meaningful in telling somebody's alignment, and of course I'm going to want to check it myself.

You weren't, but I think it's kind of silly to go "well this person acts like X here and Y here, so Z is probably a scumtell". I use it primarily for null tells (see Manix/BBM). My case on Refa is because he's trying to push my case without voting me, which has nothing to do with meta and everything to do with "that looks totally weird". Vote + case depends on what's in the case, but case without vote is suspicious in my eyes.

[Vhaltz]

I feel okay about eclipse because there's usually a lot more empty noise/non contribution in early scum!eclipse posts iirc

This was mostly the feeling that I was getting after seeing the absolute lack of anything from eclipse!scum in ITTD, but was worried about the overreaction to Refa.

I don't agree that the Refa case is good though. He managed to get a reaction out of eclipse just fine without throwing his vote her way, and I don't see why analyzing/pushing a secondary suspect while voting your top scumspect necessarily amounts to being scum. I could see mudflinging accusations being telling when a player is attempting to shove suspicion onto somebody while avoiding their wagon (see: scorri last game with both the Prims wagon ED1 and my wagon lateD1) but this doesn't look like it's the case. If scum!Refa wanted to avoid beef with Eclipse I doubt he would've started pushing her in the first place.

It just feels like the same kind of playstyle difference as when BBM accused me of parking on Shinori while I was trying to test Prims.

[Conqueror]

Don't really see BBM's followup on Manix as overexplaining at that stage of the game; it's pretty much what I was thinking when I was reading along.

like. would you rather i just place the vote and not realize it does A Thing based on a claim or actually realize the implications of what i do?

let me try and rephrase. would you rather i plead ignorance later if conq's role has some sort of "bad" effect to us, that i contributed to it, or would you rather i acknowledge that now and accept that?

Seems the comment on my claim was pretty off hand though since his explanation (letting people know the implications of voting me) doesn't even match up since it's only end of day votes that matter? I think it's strange that if Manix thought my role had some kind of bad effect that he would vote me in the first place, but from the way he worded his post it seems he was skimming along and decided to mention it for the heck of it. He moved his vote away from me afterwards, so. Willing to give him the benefit of the doubt based on how he develops.

@Vhaltz
Why are you voting BBM just after he declared that he won't be around for an extended period of time? Was there literally no one else you could think of dropping a vote on at that time, or?

@Paperblade
What's your opinion on the Manix - BBM - SB interactions so far?

Not a big fan of Kaoz's drive-by on Vhaltz. Even if BBM said he wouldn't be around for an extended period of time, what does that have to do with Vhaltz thinking what he did was scummy? The Paperblade question feels like fluff given that I can't see why he would have more insight into Manix/BBM/SB than anyone else posting at the time.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kaoz

Vhaltz's reaction tests seem like something he would do as town or something he'd do as scum to act like his town self, so I don't think that line of query is productive?

Would kinda like an explanation from Scarlet why they're voting Vhaltz, as their vote post seems more like "wtf is this reaction test" than anything.

@Balcerzak What's wrong with the partial claims that have been given already? For that matter, do you think it's relevant to people being scum or what? I couldn't get much from your post, since it pretty much looks like you mentioned everything on the table and concluded "it's all good."

[eclipse]

Conq - now that you're here, a question: Does your role work if you're NOT lynched? I'd rather lynch someone other than you, as I don't think you're scum at this point in the game.

[Grace]

itt: people miss explanations

the vote still had the intent of "rvs wagon consolidation". i'm going to chalk the overexplanation or w/e down to my brain being completely screwed from having to think and socialize all day.

pretty sure the people who voted me while i was asleep (@refa's #82 and paper's #95) completely missed this. it implies that the "overexplanations" were shit due to weird headspace, and to that end i still explained what i wanted done with the vote, regardless.

basically the votes don't consider the entire context. which i'm not a fan of.

-

@j00 (#72): currently there are no reasons to think it's a town/scum role either way, so it's null.

@refa (#82): why mention that Bal's post is fluff if you're not going to do anything with it?

also refa's string of posts with clipsey i don't like: there's no reason to suspect someone based on roleclaims, and the further passive aggressive pushing against clipsey while holding onto a (flawed) vote makes me think something is up.

also saying that, paper jumped straight into voting me (again, see top of post) and actually completely ignored a question posed by Cows back on #80 which is ??????????

-

more posts appeared while i was writing this

I could see mudflinging accusations being telling when a player is attempting to shove suspicion onto somebody while avoiding their wagon (see: scorri last game with both the Prims wagon ED1 and my wagon lateD1) but this doesn't look like it's the case.

what makes you say that? it's not like refa reevaluated his priorities when he had more reasons against clipsey, instead keeping his previous vote. definitely could )and i think is) mudslinging rn

If scum!Refa wanted to avoid beef with Eclipse I doubt he would've started pushing her in the first place.

maybe it's my brain being dead, but i don't even understand why this part exists. like, people can push whoever they think they can get away with as scum (whether they be town or scum), and most of the players here could (and probably would) do so. idk

-

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

because reads and stuff

[Grace]

now i have to go again. i don't know how long i will be gone.

[Conqueror]

Oh, right. "Enough" is some number perhaps equal to but not greater than or less than four.

I don't really understand the eclipse/Refa exchange from the last page. Looks to me like Refa made an offhand comment on eclipse's roleclaim being suspicious and eclipse reacted a bit strongly (I can't see any situation where I'd vote someone off RVS roleclaims instead of RVS play) and it just snowballed from there.

Don't know where Refa is going with his role stuff (Prims had a town ninja in Touhou whatsthatgamemmafia for basically no reason at all), but I don't see how he's trying to push eclipse without voting her? His query to Paperblade seems pretty natural given that Paperblade also gave a blurb about eclipse. I feel like Refa and eclipse are talking about different things in a way, not sure how to put it.

Cut by eclipse. If I'm lynched I die. I would rather not get lynched. >_>

Also, I've made like one post, I'm surprised you have a townread on me.

[Conqueror]

EBWOP: I mean I see where eclipse is coming from even if I don't agree with her.

(which you and I do as well...I'm surprised she didn't comment on that all actually, considering SB is her main scumread)

That's probably the thing I find the most off about Refa; seems like massive buddying unless Refa and Paperblade have a history of being conversational in that way.

[Vhaltz]

I was getting ready for bed and you guys suddenly start walling

@Conq you mention Scarlet, but what about j00? they're both very similar wrt calling out the reaction test so why mention one and not the other?

@Manix I don't think it qualifies as mudslinging here though? specially when Refa was pushing Eclipse so openly by spamposting about it and asking Paperblade and whatnot, as opposed to the subtle ways I've seen people do it when they're scum.

I'm getting a bit of a headache by forcing myself to process everything right now. Despite having a lot of time this weekend I've had a bit of a shitty week at uni and I'm missing sleep so I'll just call it a day. I get the feeling that I've forgotten to mention some stuff so I'll go through my notes tomorrow morning.

[Prims]

Day 1.2 - Votals

Manix (3) - BigBangMeteor, Refa, Paperblade

Vhaltz (3) - j00, Scarlet, SB

Refa (2) - eclipse, Manix

Balcerzak (1) - Strege

eclipse (1) - Balcerzak

j00 (1) - Vhaltz

Kaoz (1) - Conqueror

Paperblade (1) - Kaoz

Not Voting (0): None!

You have 50 hours left in the day. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Prims

[Sunwoo]

Not playing

j00's voting twice in those votals

Not playing

[Conqueror]

@Vhaltz: Well then. I missed that j00 was voting you since it was a leftover jokevote. So taking that into account he's pretty much similar to Scarlet in my books atm.

[Conqueror]

Actually, no, that's a lie. joo reads a little better because of this.

@Vhaltz: Can't the exact reason you're voting BBM (feels like he's just trying too hard to stick to the vote) be applied to SB too? Not seeing why BBM would earn a vote when doesn't even get a comment.

Scarlet's vote on you was based solely on the reaction test. So I basically came to the opposite conclusion from you re: Scarlet/j00.

[Paperblade]

I saw the line you quoted, Manix, it just didn't sway me enough. I also responded to Kaoz, whoever is calling me out on that, I just didn't do so directly.

I have no strong feelings on eclipse. I disagree with Refa's eclipse case, the way people do things can matter more than what they do. I don't think Refa is scummy for making a case on someone he's not voting.

[SB.]

Ok nvm I just noticed Refa used wolfy so he was probably joking on the eclipse being suspicious part. What I DON'T like about Refa though is that I feel like his post is pretty empty of reads, aside from a Manix suspcion that he snatched from me. The "would it even be a nerf" thing also feels like fearmongering.

Vhaltz: why didn't you post that j00 suspicon when she'd first made the posts? They weren't long after yours, so I'd assume that you were still around?

Paperblade: have your buddies not posted enough for you to bus them or something? #95 reads like it came out really forced to me just based on wording, and it kind of feels like you're disconnected from the game rather than trying to interact with people.

Manix's followup was a bit better, so I'm dropping that for now.

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

[Prims]

Added ISO links to the first post, by the way.