Big NOCers - Game Over

[BBM]

@j00- I have the public demonstration of a robot that I have literally spent hundreds of hours on (and it's still not working asdgasfgsfg) in approximately 16 hours, so yeah, I'm inactive. I said this in my confirmation post.

When I voted Manix I legitimately found his actions suspicious for that time of the game. No, it wasn't something that I'd still vote him off at this point in the game (which is why I unvoted) but it was somewhat more than trying to feel out a reaction. Saying I'm iffy about Raymond and Refa isn't saying I find them suspicious; it's saying I'm going back and forth on their alignment, which is why my comments there are waffly. I never said I had any legitimate suspicions other than you, other than kind of on Manix still.

Your vote on me is reactionary and doesn't explain Why I Am Scum other than that my case is weak. This is also why you found Vhaltz suspicious btw. But it doesn't explain scum motive. Townies can have weak cases too. And the explanation of your Vhaltz vote as an over-reliance on meta is also just explaining why his case is not as strong as it could be. It's not explaining why scum want to use meta a lot and not talk about logic. An over-reliance on meta is also just a playstyle, which you categorize as null. It just reminds me overall of your play in Inception where you pushed Bizz for pretty much the exact same stuff the entire game and used that as the outlet of your content.

Also I feel uncomfortable with the timing of your Vhaltz unvote, just as the wagon begins to gain momentum and time left in the phase begins to wind down. I mean, I kind of agree with your reasoning about why Vhaltz isn't scum, but this reasoning has applied for a long time.

Also I remember someone telling me to give people funny PRs- I don't choose which PRs to give.

[j00]

going to bed too, don't really have anything else to add that haven't been said or can't wait until tomorrow

everything about Kaoz and Bal has been said, would like if Scarlet posted other reads (like what is your updated opinion on Vhaltz), Conq still has his vote on Kaoz, should also post reads on others etc etc etc zzzzzzz

[Grace]

things that i can actually manage to word now (i wanted to word the first two points earlier this morning before i got to uni, but i couldn't do it to save my life)

kind of iffy about Refa and Raymond.

...

makes me feel that he's more likely to be misconceived town.

(referring to refa, reasoning cut for length)

i don't quite understand why, in only the very next paragraph, that you go from "iffy" to "misconceived town". my brain just isn't completely parsing this, in that you go from, ad lib, "not sure, maybe a little scummy" to "town wording/playing badly".

i think there's something up here. i just can't wrap my brain around it

I think Manix is kinda scummy right now because his nitpicking in posts 156 and the end of 114 seem like filler.

why does it look like filler (mostly in relation to #156) compared to valid criticisms?

One thing that bugs me about Manix on reread is that his votes aren't really because he finds people scummy, he's just "building wagons" until he jumps on Refa.

i could swear someone mentioned this (strege? pretty sure i just read it), but you're ignoring the context in that the only real talking point for me at the time would be in the manix/bbm/sb interaction OR vhaltz's reaction test thing, to which i eventually got to. what did you want me to do? there was nothing much i could do besides what i did. (considering my very next post had the refa vote, and i had slept in the meantime between those two posts)

-

i don't think i can reread in depth right now, i'd barely get enough done. i will try to do it later (later being in like 4ish hours, unless i lose even more time for other reasons)

[j00]

oh hey BBM posted

yeah, I know both you and Manix are busy and therefore inactive, but I feel like your posts are also suffering in terms of quality (though that could also be because you're busy), hence why I pointed out my problems with your cases.

my problem with your Manix unvote was why did you feel you needed to justify it?

"Okay, so Manix hasn't been around and this vote is kinda useless now but I'm still keeping an eye on him"

None of this was necessary to say for an unvote that happens 7 pages later, it sounds like you're being overly cautious here.

also if I'm not allowed to vote what I find to be weak cases, how am I supposed to treat them? Yeah yeah, weak cases can belong to either alignment but if you're suspicious pushing them should give you more information to evaluate them properly. Is saying "that was a weak case" and then proceed to do nothing about it better?

[j00]

sleep for reals

[Prims]

Day 1.4 - Votals

j00 (2) - Strege, BigBangMeteor

Refa (2) - Manix, Vhaltz

SB (2) - Refa, Raymond

Vhaltz (2) - Paperblade, eclipse

BigBangMeteor (1) - j00

eclipse (1) - Balcerzak

Kaoz (1) - Conqueror

Paperblade (1) - Kaoz

Raymond (1) - SB

Not Voting (0): None!

You have 23 hours and 10 minutes left in the day. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Prims

[eclipse]

Definitely won't be around for phase end. . .and I'm not sure if I'll wake up in time to show up a few hours before phase end (that's something like seven hours before it).

Vhaltz, that was an example on how to build a case without using meta. Yes, it's helpful, but when it gets to the point where it's your be-all end-all, it leaves you with nothing but weak cases, which in turn doesn't really help the town. For example, Manix isn't spamming, but that doesn't mean he's town/scum - it most likely means that he's busy (and is a null tell).

Don't agree with j00 in regards to BBM/Manix - it's hard to build any sort of coherent case if you're busy. Those two seem to be bogged down with RL stuff, so I'm willing to give them a break for now. I get the feeling that Manix is paying a wee bit more attention than BBM, though. BBM, if you get a chance, what do you think of Manix's most recent posts?

[Scarlet]

I got the impression that Scarlet wasn't really putting much into his ED1 posts? There are people who tried to build cases even if they were grasping and there were people who just threw a few questions around and called it a day. Scarlet felt like the second type up until he posted his case on SB, it's probably an issue of barely having seen him play before and you people already having an already-conceived image of what he's like.

What's wrong with asking questions? I can't exactly make a case out of "lol your avatar is gay you must be scum", so until somebody does something actually scummy, the logical thing to do is to make stuff happen and to have people post stuff to speed up the process.

Really, this is basic scumhunting. I shouldn't have to explain this.

He hasn't really done anything all phase other than tunneling on SB based on misreps and hypocrisy, it may not actually be alignment-indicative depending on his usual playstyle but I don't have time to look into that atm and I don't think I have anything better.

No, that's just not true.

- I pressure-voted you for your reaction test. You didn't bother responding to my questions.

- I voted Refa for posting a lot without actually saying much.

- Then I dealt with SB. For, as of the time you made that post, all of two posts (2.5 hours).

Not only are you now doing the same thing SB did (misrepresenting), in retrospect you two have also been buddying pretty hard. SB placed a somewhat weak vote on you and then dropped it shortly after for no stated reason, and you read him as town for... ...likewise hardly any reason other than meta?

@Scarlet, what do you think of people who aren't SB? iirc deadline is not that far away and you could be suspecting literally anybody else at this point.

would like if Scarlet posted other reads (like what is your updated opinion on Vhaltz)

Bal: Made one lame post and then ceased to exist. Still want a content post from him.

CLIPSEY!: Seems reasonable so far. Leaning slightly town.

j00: Has spent way too much time on the same few things regarding the Vhaltz case despite making little if any progress, but hasn't really grabbed my attention so far otherwise. Slightly negative read.

Kaoz: Made two really lame posts and then ceased to exist. Really needs to make a content post.

Manix: Still hasn't really done terribly much except defend himself. Needs to post reads other than Refa.

Paper: Seems reasonable so far. Leaning slightly town.

Refa: Made a decent content post after I unvoted him, then stopped existing. Kind of null at this point.

SB: You know what I currently think of SB.

Vhaltz: My read on him has turned around to a scum read, pretty much. While he's been posting quite a lot, his more recent posts felt pretty weak and meaningless to me, as if just making up shit on the spot. And his buddying with SB really irks me.

BBM, Conq and Strege failed to catch my attention even after ISOing them.

Want to lynch SB or Vhaltz today, but am also fine with a j00 lynch if needed.

[Conqueror]

Okay, finished rereading. Also, the quote system here sucks. I thought I'd let you all know.

I disagree with SB's claim that Raymond unvoting for no reason is that scummy since he voted a few posts down. I haven't had a problem with the rest of SB's posts but from what I can tell that's the basis for the Raymond case? I also disagree with Raymond's claim that SB's jump off of Vhaltz and onto Paperblade is a scummy thing. And then aside from that SB and Raymond are both pointing at each other saying "you're scummy for unvoting for no reason" with an added does of "you're scummy for thinking that I'm scummy for unvoting for no reason when you're also doing it." The accusations have warped so far from the initial exchange that I'm having trouble figuring out what's going on.

The funny thing is that after reading the exchange I don't think either are scum. I was iffy on Raymond's #145 but his exchange with SB makes me feel slightly better? And I don't see SB's initial case on Raymond as a misrep. SB's #159 raised what I thought were valid issues with Ray's #145, and imo the rest of his posting has been relatively proactive. The two of you should hug and make up.

I kind of feel the same way about how j00 and BBM are approaching each other; both of them are basically pointing at each other and going "your case on me is weak, ergo you are scum." As for the scum motive of weak cases: because making up cases as scum is hard and since you know you're bs'ing on townies they'll be weaker than cases you make as town with CONVICTION! I don't know why BBM even brought this up as a point since it should be pretty self-evident to any mafia player (and j00 even states it in the post where he votes you); seems like a semantic way of building up a case that "you're not showing scum intent!" If I were to vote here I'd vote BBM but I don't know.

Also I feel uncomfortable with the timing of your Vhaltz unvote, just as the wagon begins to gain momentum and time left in the phase begins to wind down. I mean, I kind of agree with your reasoning about why Vhaltz isn't scum, but this reasoning has applied for a long time.

Like, this doesn't make any sense if BBM is bringing it up for why he thinks j00 is scum. So unvoting off a wagon that is gaining momentum near deadline is something that scum do now?

This post is getting unwieldy so I'm posting this first. Vote and other stuff will come right afterwards.

[Conqueror]

@eclipse I'm not seeing why Vhaltz getting more passive as the day goes on is scummy? It reads as fatigue to me, which is pretty alignment neutral given the current game state. I guess this is also addressed at Paperblade? I don't see Vhaltz's blitz of activity and poking around in the thread as throwing shit at everyone; I see it as trying to get reads via stirring things up. A few other people I think have voiced similar(?) viewpoints on that and I'm confused because in my experience scum are always more likely to be passive unless they have naturally aggressive personalities. Either way, I'd find it scummier if Vhaltz was actively expressing suspicion of a lot of people at once, but from what I can tell his changing suspicions are coming about because he's thinking through the game, not because he's seeing what sticks. Consistency is totally a scumtell.

I think at this stage I pretty much want to vote Manix. I'm rereading his initial post where he votes Refa and it's basically because he thought Refa should have been voting eclipse based on his push against her, in the same post where he says that there's no reason to suspect someone based on roleclaims. It's hard for me to reconcile what's basically an entirely rolebased push on eclipse from Refa with "more reasons to vote eclipse over Manix."

also refa's string of posts with clipsey i don't like: there's no reason to suspect someone based on roleclaims, and the further passive aggressive pushing against clipsey while holding onto a (flawed) vote makes me think something is up.

what makes you say that? it's not like refa reevaluated his priorities when he had more reasons against clipsey, instead keeping his previous vote. definitely could )and i think is) mudslinging rn

missing the point. irrelevant of what i think about your case, from your POV you should be reevaluating your lynch priority when new information came to the table, even if it doesn't change. it took prodding to make you even say it, and it makes it look like you're trying to non-effort that vote. which is what scum like to do.

Really feels like a lazy mess. Yeah, yeah, Manix I know you don't have time. But why are you voting Refa again? Whatever reasoning there was for voting Refa blew away in the wind after Refa moved off the Manix vote. It would be like if someone kept pushing Manix for his comment on my role case on like page 2 (which is non-alignment relevant anyway).

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

Strege is on my to read list mostly because my eyes keep glazing over when I look at the formatting of his posts and I'm not getting anything from what I do read.

I hope Bal is getting a replacement or something at this rate.

[Prims]

bal was prodded when I made the votecount, not gonna replace anybody unless they ask or seemingly site-flake

[Conqueror]

Well, there's one thing confusing me about Vhaltz, which is that he said he basically didn't have a problem with Refa's posts except for the SB case which he acknowledges as something that could come from town!Refa, but he's still kept his vote on Refa despite all the everything else he's saying for a mysterious reason which I'm assuming is gut? It's a really lazy vote, but uh, I can't imagine scum!Vhaltz not being able to make an alternate case? At the same time, I don't know why he decided to keep the vote on Refa where there are a lot of other people in the game who he presumably hasn't townread either. It's the only thing that's really pinging me about Vhaltz. I don't see the other stuff people are finding off about him.

[Conqueror]

Oh, I will not be around at deadline as I will be exploring the wonders of American public transportation. But I'll be around at sporadic times before the deadline.

[eclipse]

. . .I can't tell what Conq is trying to say about Manix at all. . .gah, I'll come back to this later, because the words are beginning to blur. . .

[Conqueror]

I don't think the reasons he's voting Refa make any sense. Makes me feel like he latched onto something weird "the way Refa pushed on you with rolespec" and tried to spin a case off of that but it doesn't actually hold up under inspection.

[BBM]

@Conq- Yeah except j00's not saying that the cases are weak because they lack townie conviction, she's just saying the foundational arguments are weak. That happens with townie arguments too.

Also our quote system used to be 10x better and then we changed the site software and it became trash overnight.

@Manix- it seems we're both tired because I don't know what you're trying to say here. As I said in my response to j00, when I said I was iffy about Refa and Raymond, I meant that I was unsure/waffling about their alignments. Might have been poor word choice on my part; shrug.

@j00- I felt the need to clarify my unvote of Manix because I was, as I said, still suspicious. So I wanted to say that I was unvoting because the stuff from before was not that relevant anymore, but I still wanted to state that I wasn't okay with Manix and that I was still wary of him.

I could go for a Manix wagon; Conq's case looks legit. I will hopefully have time in the morning to read Manix and j00 again but no promises. I should be around some time before deadline but I don't know if I'll be here for deadline itself.

11.5 hours left and robot is 75% functional #BELIEVE

except it's actually more like 3.5 hours left because we decided to go home to suit up

[BBM]

Forgot to mention that I'm no longer as sure about j00. I've never actually played a game where j00 was scum and had a lot of time to post, but it always seems like she's lurking when she's scum.

why isn't mafia easy ;_;

[eclipse]

meta is the new Atkins diet

I think I sort of understand both sides? I'll let Manix explain his own case, and I explained my own logic to death. I'm not fully on board with lynching Manix right now, because I get the sense that he hasn't had a chance to read the game in-depth (this is also why I'm not doing things like prodding BBM for detailed reads - scatterposting makes him a lot harder to read than normal, but it looks like he's got more important things to do).

[Grace]

so i am back but i'm not really feeling like mafia due to rolling/spraining my ankle. on the day before my birthday. i'm really good at this. but here's some stuff anyway

But why are you voting Refa again? Whatever reasoning there was for voting Refa blew away in the wind after Refa moved off the Manix vote.

uhhhh no

i voted refa for the passive-aggressive snips at eclipse and a few other things that i can't be bothered sourcing rn, AND why does refa get absolved of actions when he moves on past a vote? yeah no that's not a thing, because some of those points still stand

As I said in my response to j00, when I said I was iffy about Refa and Raymond, I meant that I was unsure/waffling about their alignments. Might have been poor word choice on my part; shrug.

that's what doesn't make sense, because you make a definite read in the "misconceived town" compared to the whole "iffy" business. there's some sort of disconnect

[Conqueror]

i voted refa for the passive-aggressive snips at eclipse and a few other things that i can't be bothered sourcing rn, AND why does refa get absolved of actions when he moves on past a vote? yeah no that's not a thing, because some of those points still stand

Yeah, people aren't absolved of their past actions. But your points, from what I read, were pretty much that Refa was holding on to his vote on you when he had a better case on eclipse. Parking on a flawed vote something scum would do etc. Thing is, at this point you're more guilty of that than he is. When you get the time (preferably soonish) I'd like you to explain your original reasons for voting him because fmpov the one with a flawed vote is you.

Also, if passive aggressive sniping were scum behaviour I'd lynch half of you off the face of the earth. Unless it's a specific meta tell for Refa? It's "anti-town" for sure, but given that he didn't make the push to make eclipse a serious lynch (and eclipse wasn't a serious lynch contender at that point anyway), it's not even proper mudslinging. Not the kind that gets anywhere beyond getting people mad at you.

[Conqueror]

EBWOP: *by original reasons for voting him I actually mean the "points that still stand" you were talking about since they're more relevant atm anyway.

[Grace]

yeah okay im dum and basically forgot that was my only reason for the vote at that stage. i'm still not a fan of the passive-aggressive stuff, but i still need to do rereads to get New Opinions

##Unvote

it might be a while before i do so because of aforementioned lack of motivation. it should definitely be before phase end though

[Grace]

I actually mean the "points that still stand" you were talking about since they're more relevant atm anyway.

the only thing that was posted was the whole thing about passive-aggressive stuff, which isn't exactly a full case right now. bad memory is bad

[eclipse]

Yeah, people aren't absolved of their past actions. But your points, from what I read, were pretty much that Refa was holding on to his vote on you when he had a better case on eclipse. Parking on a flawed vote something scum would do etc. Thing is, at this point you're more guilty of that than he is. When you get the time (preferably soonish) I'd like you to explain your original reasons for voting him because fmpov the one with a flawed vote is you.

Also, if passive aggressive sniping were scum behaviour I'd lynch half of you off the face of the earth. Unless it's a specific meta tell for Refa? It's "anti-town" for sure, but given that he didn't make the push to make eclipse a serious lynch (and eclipse wasn't a serious lynch contender at that point anyway), it's not even proper mudslinging. Not the kind that gets anywhere beyond getting people mad at you.

This made more sense than your original case. I have a much better idea of why you're voting, even if I don't fully agree with your reasons.

[Paperblade]

conq is a great user

this is basically all I have to add