Samus (regular) and Ike are candidates for bottom tier

[Anacybele]

I think that if custom moves are considered, Ike can skyrocket all the way to high tier, maybe even top. His Close Combat move wrecks anybody for me, even the fast characters, and he can combo aerial moves with it too. This move sends foes flying upwards above him rather than away from him, and if they're at low damage, Ike can easily get in a b-air or u-air with short-hopping. Any of his Aethers can be used in the same manner too.

And I'm betting that if you pull off a Paralyzing Counter first, you can make them a sitting duck long enough to start pulling off some Close Combats. It's even great for 3 or 4 player matches because the move has a hitbox for the entire time Ike uses it. He'll rush through everybody in his path and hit them for damage!

Edited October 12, 2014 by Anacybele

[Elieson]

is Ike's Close Combat taht good that it exceeds the benefit of most other unit's custom moves?

[Anacybele]

It might, but I don't know for sure. That's why I'm not saying that it'd make him high tier for sure. Only that it possibly can. But I notice that I've been able to hit people multiple times with it without them being able to do anything. So it IS a VERY good move.

[Ragnell]

Close Combat is great, but I'm really tempted to use Unyielding Blade over it for 1v1. Having super armor both on the dash and the charge allows Ike to muscle through a lot of edgeguarding, though you're basically required to use Aether Drive in concert to make up for the loss of horizontal recovery. You could also use the armor on UY to break through an opponents defenses and get them flying and vulnerable. Both variants of Quick Draw are huge points in Ike's favor, despite all of them still putting you in helpless fall if they don't connect (friggin Fox can now Fire Fox out of Fox Illusion, so I don't get why Ike's recovery is still so limited).

I'm not sure how I feel about Ike's counters, since paralyzing counter seems pretty ineffectual at low percents, and smash counter is really hard to actually hit with. I don't counter that often, so I'll have to review when exactly I prefer to counter so I can choose the attack that is most beneficial. Similarly, I barely ever use Eruption and none of his customs look very likely to change that. The move is just way too difficult to hit with, so I guess Furious Eruption would be the most practical for me for its increased range.

When I don't use Unyielding Blade, I also have a really hard time picking Aethers. Drive is amazing for switching up Ike's recovery, but if Ike is facing away from an edge it is guaranteed death. With vanilla Aether, Ike can't grab the ledge backward, but he can move himself backward a little mid attack to prevent the SD. I've saved myself this way multiple times, which makes me hesitant to fully endorse Drive. That said, throwing the blade through the stage at edgeguarders is so satisfying. I'm partial to Aether Wave just because it finally gives Ike his shockwave attack, but it definitely nerfs his recovery since it's shorter than vanilla Aether. So Unyielding Blade + Aether Wave is probably a no-no. Wave is faster than vanilla, though, so I imagine popping it off to surprise an opponent could be a solid option.

I don't know how useful the custom moves on most characters are, but Ike definitely has some great options in his customs. And at least so far it looks like there is no one best combination of customs, so facing an Ike could involve a lot of scouting to see what customs he is using, which definitely helps Ike.

[Anacybele]

Yeah, I have trouble choosing between Aethers too, although I'm still getting the hang of Aether Drive Both Drive and Wave are great for their own reasons.

[Lord Raven]

Close Combat is great, but I'm really tempted to use Unyielding Blade over it for 1v1. Having super armor both on the dash and the charge allows Ike to muscle through a lot of edgeguarding, though you're basically required to use Aether Drive in concert to make up for the loss of horizontal recovery. You could also use the armor on UY to break through an opponents defenses and get them flying and vulnerable. Both variants of Quick Draw are huge points in Ike's favor, despite all of them still putting you in helpless fall if they don't connect (friggin Fox can now Fire Fox out of Fox Illusion, so I don't get why Ike's recovery is still so limited).

Close Combat + Aether Drive is good against edge guarding projectiles, but close combat goes straight through opponents.

I'm not sure how I feel about Ike's counters, since paralyzing counter seems pretty ineffectual at low percents, and smash counter is really hard to actually hit with. I don't counter that often, so I'll have to review when exactly I prefer to counter so I can choose the attack that is most beneficial. Similarly, I barely ever use Eruption and none of his customs look very likely to change that. The move is just way too difficult to hit with, so I guess Furious Eruption would be the most practical for me for its increased range.

I don't like the other two counters, his vanilla counter is the most effective one I'd say. It seems buffed compared to Brawl because it has less startup lag (at least it feels like that).

Oh yeah, and Tempest can be deadly on the edge. If they approach from the side then they're fucked; perfect timing will actually place someone far away in a helpless stage, and you can use it to space away from pressure because of the wind effect. Effectively the threat of Tempest will force opponents to recovery a certain way and all of those ways are conducive to winning on the edge. It doesn't even really need to hit. I don't think it'll push him to top exactly, but mid tier at best. We'll just have to see how everything plays out, but I've had a lot of luck with tempest against random people on SF.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Lord Raven

[FrostyFireMage]

I think Custom Moves are a great idea. They definitely level out the effectiveness of the characters.

[Ein]

the odds of tournaments allowing them are practically nil

[FrostyFireMage]

the odds of tournaments allowing them are practically nil

Why wouldn't they? It's not like they're items or anything.

[Ema Skye]

Tournaments have already been allowing custom moves and the players are preferring to have them in the metagame.

[Anacybele]

That's good, because it seems like some characters, such as Ike, NEED custom moves to be tourney viable at all.

[Samias]

I think that's the point. The metagame is healthier if more characters are viable overall. Equipment, on the other hand, will certainly be banned, but I have met absolutely no one against custom moves. For some characters like Ike and Palutena, it helps them out a ton.

[Ragnell]

I think custom moves are pretty likely to remain allowed in most tournaments. A handful of them will probably be determined to be completely unbalanced (which is the whole reason they're not allowed online), but the benefits of more variety, more strategy in character choices, and more viable characters overall outweigh the work required to ban a few bad eggs.

[Knife]

In fact, a major Texas tournament is allowing them, and I sure as hell am getting custom move matchup experience.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1464546770489796

[Jedi]

Pretty much tiers are nonexistent because we haven't had any big named tournaments yet.

Despite that, this game is so balanced everyone is usable at this point the only reason most people preach tiers is to dissuade people from picking the less popular characters to play.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Jedi

[Elieson]

Except Rosaluma, you mean

[Jedi]

Except Rosaluma, you mean

She may have a massive advantage but has the weakness of having to master her. Not at all an easy pick up and play character.

[Vajra]

A player named Ryuga made it to the Youmacon 2014 Grand Finals as Ike. He has taken sets off of a Sheik, R.O.B., Greninja, and even Rosaluma. And this was done without the use of any customs! Although he ultimately lost to Diddy Kong and finished 2nd, the fact that a perceived bottom tier character can hold its own against those that are deemed far superior in a competitive environment is a visual spectacle.

If Ike really is the worst character in this game, what does that say about this game's balance? Don't lose hope, Ike mains. With enough perseverance, anything is possible. ^-^

The following videos below are footage of Ike at the event:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlp4j9m9qAU&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA (Ike vs. Sheik)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv9JFoPikVQ&index=5&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA (Ike vs. Greninja)

(Ike vs. R.O.B.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAHbsMG2_FU&index=2&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA (Ike vs. Rosaluma)

[Anacybele]

Except those are loser's bracket matches according to the video titles. So this Ike player actually lost very early on.

[MRDRHAWK]

Except those are loser's bracket matches according to the video titles. So this Ike player actually lost very early on.

still made it to Grand Finals though, which is more than you'd expect for a bottom tier character to do

[Anacybele]

That is true, but he was still facing other people that lost in the tournament. If an Ike player can win a bunch of matches in the regular bracket of a big tourney like this, then I'll legitimately be quite impressed and less worried about him.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Anacybele

[Vajra]

still made it to Grand Finals though, which is more than you'd expect for a bottom tier character to do

Exactly. It is one thing to be put into loser's bracket; fighting one's way out of that bracket is another, especially amidst a sea of perceived top tier characters. ^-^

SSB4 is looking to be the most balanced Smash Bros. yet as there does not seem to be any character that is obnoxiously broken, like SSBB Meta Knight, nor is there a character that is atrociously bad, such as SSBB Ganondorf.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Xuan Wu

[MRDRHAWK]

That is true, but he was still facing other people that lost in the tournament. If an Ike player can win a bunch of matches in the regular bracket of a big tourney like this, then I'll legitimately be quite impressed and less worried about him.

See, Smash more than any other game looks at tourney results when crafting tier lists. Yes, the Ike player lost early and ended up in losers. However, he still rebounded - against some very common top-tier characters, no less - to make Grand Finals and finish as the runner-up.

Inevitably, the Smash community is going to look at this and, more than likely, move Ike up a few spots on the tier list, because of how well someone playing a perceived bottom tier character played against top tier characters.

[Jedi]

See, Smash more than any other game looks at tourney results when crafting tier lists. Yes, the Ike player lost early and ended up in losers. However, he still rebounded - against some very common top-tier characters, no less - to make Grand Finals and finish as the runner-up.

Inevitably, the Smash community is going to look at this and, more than likely, move Ike up a few spots on the tier list, because of how well someone playing a perceived bottom tier character played against top tier characters.

Especially the Rosalina and Greninja matches. I will be taking some notes from Ryuga here because Ike is one of my mains in Smash 4

[Carter]

Exactly. It is one thing to be put into loser's bracket; fighting one's way out of that bracket is another, especially amidst a sea of perceived top tier characters. ^-^

SSB4 is looking to be the most balanced Smash Bros. yet as there does not seem to be any character that is obnoxiously broken, like SSBB Meta Knight, nor is there a character that is atrociously bad, such as SSBB Ganondorf.

in b4 ana says zero suit samus is obnoxiously broken

I don't really take notice of tournaments, so I've got a few questions that I should've known had I been watching some.

So there's some loser bracket, and then someone can "get out" of that and be in the finals? That's very interesting, and I love second chances (if that's the purpose of the loser's bracket?). Sorry for the dumb questions.