Samus (regular) and Ike are candidates for bottom tier

[Kon]

Don't pay attention to those tier lists and keep playing as Ike? Just because there is a tier list it doesn't mean that every low tiered character will be shit. You might have to work harder for it, but you can still kick ass with them. So either keep playing as Ike or find someone who "sucks" less to play as.

A Picture of the TierList(sry Kon yours is hard to read)

Ah, sorry, I must've goofed when I tried to copy it >_<

[Carter]

You didn't seem to see something I said earlier. I had trouble getting anywhere at my best with Brawl Ike. How can I expect to do better with Smash 3DS's Ike being 41 out of 49? I just don't get good enough, I'm sorry.

lol how do you think us Zelda mains feel?

Second to worst in Brawl, now 44 out of 49. It sucks, but I play as Zelda because it's fun, and I like her. When you lose, don't take it so hard! If you self-destruct, don't quit the match! Try to make a come-back and learn from your experiences!

I understand you like competitive, but just try playing casually once!

[Anacybele]

lol how do you think us Zelda mains feel?

Second to worst in Brawl, now 44 out of 49. It sucks, but I play as Zelda because it's fun, and I like her. When you lose, don't take it so hard! If you self-destruct, don't quit the match! Try to make a come-back and learn from your experiences!

I understand you like competitive, but just try playing casually once!

Except you're a ZSS main, not a Zelda main? Or did I miss something that said you've decided to make Zelda your main instead?

I do play casually every now and then. I just prefer competitive play. Simple as that.

[Raven]

lol how do you think us Zelda mains feel?

Second to worst in Brawl, now 44 out of 49. It sucks, but I play as Zelda because it's fun, and I like her. When you lose, don't take it so hard! If you self-destruct, don't quit the match! Try to make a come-back and learn from your experiences!

I understand you like competitive, but just try playing casually once!

Zelda was second-worst in Brawl? But I felt powerful using her. Weird.

Zelda in SSB4 is so different though, it'll take some getting used to to get even halfway decent with her.

And Sonic, ranked so high? That's a nice surprise.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Raven

[Carter]

Except you're a ZSS main, not a Zelda main? Or did I miss something that said you've decided to make Zelda your main instead?

Umm... have you never heard me when I said I had three mains? What happened to this:

I don't really know the mains of many others though. I know Carter's mains...

You main ZSS and Zelda. Of course I like you.

You have two mains, what's wrong with me having three (four if you count Ness, but I haven't been doing so well with him and Peach)?

Edited October 10, 2014 by Carter

[Anacybele]

Umm... have you never heard me when I said I had three mains? What happened to this:

You have two mains, what's wrong with me having three (four if you count Ness, but I haven't been doing so well with him and Peach)?

I thought ZSS was your main while the others were secondaries and I must've completely forgotten about a few things I said in the past. I made a mistake, geez.

[metalsnowman3]

Wow i must be playing Robin completely wrong if she is 5th or something. But i play super aerial aggressive and she doesn't fit that :(

Anyways you can do find with Ike, don't get too hung up on tier lists. This game is pretty balanced imo (I have lost to Ike and ganondorf with my shiek just because they played smart and I played not smart lol) and honestly just getting better at fundamental things will help a lot.

[FrostyFireMage]

Just so you know, that tier list I linked to changes all the time. Bowser Jr was considered top for a while then dropped considerably, while Ness had a huge rise in the list only recently.

Palutena was also considered the worst just a week or so ago.

Edited October 10, 2014 by KwehKweh

[Elieson]

ZSS [and Samus] were my mains, if that clears anything up too ana

though I used ZSS before i even looked at any tier list

[Dai]

Ike's not the best character in this game, no, but through sheer determination and skill, you CAN win with him. A lot of people can achieve victory using characters that are not as good as other characters.

I just won two matches back-to-back in For Glory with Ike against Bowser and Princess Peach. And they were both pretty neck and neck matches.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Dai

[Anacybele]

Yeah, you guys do have good points. I don't think Meta Knight was considered to be good when Brawl first came out as well. Who knows, things could change in the future. Though I'm most confused about why Luigi is so low at the moment. I find that he's much better than in Brawl now because of some things I noticed:

- Super/Fire Jump Punch is easier to sweet spot. A lot easier. I've been KOing people left and right with it and I was hardly ever able to before.

- Green Missile misfires more often, increasing its KO potential as well. I heard that it's still 1 in 10 like in Brawl, but I disagree. It misfires like five times every match for me. I'd say it's more like 2 in 10 now. It also boosts his recovery potential a bit.

- Luigi's jab has more range, specifically at the butt-smacking part. lol

- He's still rather fast and has strong attacks

- Super/Fire Jump Punch has less height now, but it makes Luigi less vulnerable when he uses it since he isn't a sitting duck for a long time anymore.

So yeah, either people aren't using him right or I'm completely missing something here. xP

[Florete]

Just so you know, that tier list I linked to changes all the time. Bowser Jr was considered top for a while then dropped considerably, while Ness had a huge rise in the list only recently.

Palutena was also considered the worst just a week or so ago.

Palutena's tier position seems to change with the weather.

On the whole "use who you want and kick ass with them anyway," if/when custom specials are allowed, the tier gaps will probably be even more blurry considering the many different ways the characters can all be played. There will probably still be "best" combinations, but that doesn't mean it will be a bad idea to surprise your opponent and/or keep them guessing with an alternate setup that is still good.

[FrostyFireMage]

I know for a fact that Ganondorf is FAR better with custom moves.

[Dai]

I know for a fact that Ganondorf is FAR better with custom moves.

I'm amused that his sword has a tipper. Granted, it is a rather slim sword, but still.

[FrostyFireMage]

He also gets a Side B that's a lot better for starting combos.

[solrocknroll]

i'm kind of glad ike's bad in this game

I mean, I don't hate Ike, but if it means less people will use Jason Not-kins's voice, then all for it.

[Kiseki]

I'm legitimately surprised that Ganon is still considered bottom-tier. People should seriously realize that this isn't Brawl Ganon and that he plays out much better than in Brawl. I feel that tier positions now are based on blatant favoritism and that people think since this game is much like Brawl that characters are just as good (or bad) as they were in Brawl, which is obviously not true for a number of characters.

I don't think Ike's bad in this game either. Anyone can be dangerous to face if the time and effort are put into them. I mained Roy in Melee, who was considered one of the worst in the game, and I have gotten people legitimately scared of how I used him.

[Loki Laufeyson]

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/

Link for reference

I feel like Yoshi needs to be higher. I think Koopaling should be higher too. :V Villager, i think needs to be higher. That recovery is really just...out of this world. But whats up with Palutena's placement? Im not so sure she belongs that low. Lucario and Greninja being so high kinda surprises me. Hmmm...

Ironic how the guys i use the most are mid to high tier. Weird. Ive been using just who i feel comfortable with.

As for Samus (suit), i think shes better than she was in Brawl by miles. Mid-tier makes sense. I feel like that everyone has their strengths in this game, and that there is no single character that is OP. Everyone brings something to the table. So being bottom tier =/= Will Never Win A Match.

[FrostyFireMage]

I'm legitimately surprised that Ganon is still considered bottom-tier. People should seriously realize that this isn't Brawl Ganon and that he plays out much better than in Brawl. I feel that tier positions now are based on blatant favoritism and that people think since this game is much like Brawl that characters are just as good (or bad) as they were in Brawl, which is obviously not true for a number of characters.

I don't think Ike's bad in this game either. Anyone can be dangerous to face if the time and effort are put into them. I mained Roy in Melee, who was considered one of the worst in the game, and I have gotten people legitimately scared of how I used him.

I still think people are in the mindset of speedy = high tier with a few exceptions.

[Samias]

Yeah, that tier list is really wonky. It's based off of players voting, so there's a lot of bias towards traditional popular picks. Like Ganondorf is still at the bottom and I wonder if we're even playing the same game, because Ganondorf has insane super armor frames in this game and shatters shields with ease. And while his recovery ability is only slightly more than Little Mac, his actual air offense is actually scary too.

I would either take these tier lists with a big grain of salt, or come to the mindset that even though tiers exist, tier gaps are significantly less than they were in Brawl. The bottom tier still has a great chance of beating picks much higher than them, though certain matchups are a pain. Like, Samus > Little Mac so hard, trying to win that matchup almost felt like playing a shump with Samus's projectile game and ranged grab.

If I had to make my picks for bottom tier, it would probably be Mega Man, Donkey Kong, and Falco, though. Mega Man would be cool if there weren't so many ways for his ranged heavy game to be gimped, since characters like Mario, Villager, Fox, and Palutena are just hard counters. DK's aerials are so slow and lackluster, as are his range of neutrals, but he doesn't have the range or knockback that fellow heavyweight Ike does (since Ike has been nerfed to a similar speed). I feel bad for Falco mains, he's probably one of the heaviest nerfed characters in the game and it doesn't feel like he got anything back unlike say, Meta Knight or Marth. Reflector's startup frames are slower, can't cancel the blaster, and everything seems to come out slower. I feel like he's only as high on the tier list as he is because people are still attached to him anyway and are willing to stick with him.

But still, stick with what you like! I love playing as Toon Link still even though I've seen him place bottom tier in some people's lists, but I win as him pretty often vs my friends and he's one of my best characters. Same with Jigglypuff, who I feel is significantly better than she was in Brawl with a shield-shattering Pound and better KO ratios on Rest. And I still regularly play Zelda and have found some tricks with her, so even if she's definitely NOT among the best, she still has some dangerous tools. Catching people with the new Farore's Wind is great! Don't get discouraged that your main has more bad matchups than others. Player skill > tiers. Mew2King is one of the best players in Smash Bros and he pulls out Roy and Pichu at the lower brackets of SSBM tournaments and for-fun events because he can still win and put on a show for the fans.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Samias

[euklyd]

Why are we even discussing that tier list as opposed to the million other tier lists? Like, say, tier lists made by people who know - for the most part - what they're talking about?

Also. I am not a terrible player (most of the time) and my main was 4-stocked by an Ike the other day, in what was possibly the greatest display of skill I have personally played against in a Smash game.

also also. tier lists are generally, to my knowledge, designed for like, top tier play

which most of us aren't at

[Ragnell]

You said it, Euklyd. Tiers are made assuming both players are tournament-ready pros who can use their character to the absolute fullest. Few, if any, of us are that good, and the tiers don't directly apply at lower levels of play. For instance, techniques like crouch canceling and foxtrotting can hugely impact a character's placement on the tier list. If you or your opponent can't use those techniques, the relationship between your characters will obviously be quite different than the tier list suggest.

And that's ignoring the fact that these tier lists are totally preliminary and vary widely between different sources. Yes, characters like Ike, Samus, and Luigi are pretty uniformly low on these lists, but even if they stay there, SSB4 appears a lot better balanced than past games, meaning they will have a far better chance of even beating high-tiered characters. The only way we'll know the full extent of these characters is if people continue to play who feels good to them, and experiment to find the best strategies.

[DreadFighter]

I recently discovered a few Aether tricks with Ike myself. Near the edge of a FD like stage, if done correctly, a character can be knocked downwards with little chance of recovery at -30%. Even if it existed in Brawl it boosts his utility. Otherwise I would put him mid-bottom, but he has a lot of potential if utilized correctly.

Samus I wouldn't count out even though I don't really use her.

[Lord Raven]

It did exist in Brawl, the difference is that edgehogging also doesn't really exist in Smash 4.

[Ragnell]

The Aether trick is pretty hard to use, since the positioning is so difficult. In Brawl you could also do an Aether facing away from the ledge, which would spike the enemy down, while Ike would grab the ledge behind him, but Ike no longer grabs the ledge when he does Aether facing away, so that trick is gone.

So far Ike definitely appears to be mid tier at very best. Probably low. But he got a mix of buffs and nerfs, so we'll see how things pan out. His jab got nerfed, which is bummer since it was pretty much his best move in Brawl. But shorthopping nair into jab still works great, which was my favorite approach. His aerials are faster in general, which is awesome since his air game is so critical. And his throws got subtle improvements too. Plus his biggest overall buff was that you can now use another recovery move after hitting someone with Quick Draw. No more stupid QD gimps. And if you get pushed off the stage while using nair, Ike now is able to recover, rather than plummeting to his infuriating death (this happened so much to me in Brawl!). Overall, SSB4 Ike is similar to his Brawl counterpart, but he definitely requires a more balanced gameplan, compared to the predictable nair/jab-fest that was Brawl Ike. In the right hands he might be able to claw his way up the tiers.