CYOU'RE - Game Over

[MancerNecro]

@Junk: Was your vote on me earlier a serious or a non-serious one?

[Junk]

serious.

[Percivalé]

@Mancer I was saying that I don't know/remember anyone's metagame aside from those guys so if I make a case on someone and I get a bunch of "oh that's just how they always play" I'll probably just shrug because I don't know

for clarification I gutread you in the beginning of the game and my Paper read could be considered half-gut half-meta but that's all the pure-gutreading I can remember. you said you misread though so whoops, sorry

[Bluedoom]

Mancer who do you think is actually scum and why?

What hapened to your Dormio read? What about your Randa read? Why is SB scummier than Dormio?

[Sunwoo]

Mancer, what do you think of Dormio now? Do you actually still suspect him, and why? Also, do you think Marth is scummy for his Paperblade case and his "consolidation"? Your thoughts seem a bit incoherent and not very well organized, I'm having a bit of a hard time keeping up with your suspicions.

Junk, do you have thoughts on anyone else besides Mancer?

[MancerNecro]

Right now I think Dormio could be scum but Randa brings up a good counterpoint about scum not drawing attention to themselves in RVS and that made me reconsider my read on Dormio. Also, I liked Dormio's later posts and switch over to Shin. His case feels less forced and more coherent there.

Regarding finding other players scum, that has to come after more rereads of the thread because on my initial reads, everyone's behavior seems null-town to me.

[MancerNecro]

Levity: Reads? I've not seen a lot of reads from you so far.

I don't find Bluedoom scummy, I just disagree with the way he went about casing Paperblade. Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I find them scummy.

[riariadne]

Ugh, so many posts I don't want to read, why did I ever like NOC again anyway?

Randa hasn't said anything since my last post so still not like him and will be leaving my vote there until I think I've got somewhere better to put it.

Of the Dormio wagon people I like Paper better than I did before after his recent posts and Shin a bit less. Paper's posts come off as pretty genuine and stuff and I wasn't reading him ultra bad anyway, and I think a lot of people jumped to conclusions (myself included admittedly) off of his tired first post. Of the people suspecting him I think Marth is on the most shaky grounds. The stuff he's voting on feels not actually scummy imhotep so yeah.

Shin's initial Dormio vote felt like the weakest out of many and of a wagon I think was pretty dubious it's the weakest link, and I think at least someone on it is scum due to the way votes racked up so quickly and he's my number 1 on it right now. I think the Via case is also pretty poor and lacks substance, and particularly his last post gives bad vibes and stuff.

Junko should give more opinions.

Randa > Shin > Marthipan or something. mafia sucks

[MancerNecro]

Urgh, I'm not motivated enough to go through all the 12 pages or so again.....

[eclipse]

I think Dormio's case on Shin is accurate, specially the point where he says Shin is accusing him of using self-meta. What do you expect someone to do to defend themselves when meta is brought up against them?

Normally, this is where I get irritated, but. . .

If the spam keeps up I may request for a replacement. It might just be that I had a terrible day today, but reading everything has been painful and thinking about mafia makes me angry and frustrated.

This gives me the sense that you're not playing at your fullest. I'll wait until you're in a better state of mind before responding.

BRB banning kirsche for having his quotes halfway in the box

Wrt the rest of this post, I don't really understand the Randa suspicion, what do you mean by not wanting to work with your top town read? Sheeping townreads isn't necessarily a good idea.

I'm going to use YOU as an example, since I've got a townread on you. Let's pretend that four votes suddenly popped up on you. Since I'm townreading you, that means that my read is contrary to the reads of the people who voted you. If the logic of the people voting you doesn't sway me from my own read, then that means that there's logic I strongly disagree with (at best) or outright scum (at worst). Thus, I'm going to go after those who voted you, to figure out why our views are so very different.

If I think that someone is in danger of being lynched, and I'm absolutely convinced that they're town (this has happened exactly once), I start shredding the wagons with a vengeance.

Instead, Randa did this. It sounds really, REALLY passive, given that he's voting based off of the case of someone who he thinks is town.

I don't like how you're assuming that Dormio's early game case and posts are content when they are not, SB. His questions, prods and pokes are not really content. The fact that you're voting me because of such an assumption makes me feel like your case is weak and forced.

NOT CONTENT? THIS IS A READ. It's content! The questions he's asking? Pertinent to the game/players - that's content in my books. I may not thing that Dormio's the most obvtown player in the game, but don't misrep him like that!

And I never said that I thought Dormio was townie? Just that the cases on him were wrong.

So. . .what DO you think of Dormio, if you don't agree with the cases against him?

I don't really agree with the MancerNecro votes. Whatever.

What don't you agree with?

Two deep breaths. . .

Yeah but content:spam ratio doesn't really matter if the content is there, does it? Nobody was townreading Refa/Paper/Randa off of it (except maybe me I guess), so I don't see why posting more is meant to help them look better? People don't get townread off of activity levels or anything like that. I guess your Paper suspicion makes a bit more sense now but he does that in other games anyway? I think he was more focused on posting content itself in Tyne-Wear than spammy stuff too but yeah.

Since I'm asking everyone for reads, I might as well donate a few myself:

Refa - Seems busy, so null for the moment. If he can get a couple of posts out regarding the recent stuff, I'll have a better idea of what to think about him.

Paperblade - I felt that his first serious post was him swooping in, voting, and swooping out. He's been a bit better as of late, and while I'm not absolutely totally convinced about his logic, I'm not interested in lynching him at this moment.

Randa - Explained this several times, the other account has a vote on him, and nothing so far has changed that read.

Except I feel that it does? If a certain person is posting frequently and you realize that they are posting frequently, it looks like they are contributing more. But sometimes you don't realize how ~little~ of the stuff they said is actually helpful or contributory to the game. I had that impression with Refa when I was looking at his ISO. I thought he said a lot more than he actually said, and I find his current stance and opinions very unclear.

And yes, I know that people don't get town reads off activity levels alone, but if a person appears to be posting frequently and their content isn't knee-jerk terrible, aren't most peoples' initial reactions going to be "oh, they're contributing and what they're posting isn't terrible"? That's usually what my initial D1 reactions are to people. If I feel that a person is posting frequently enough content to stick in my memory, I automatically tend to worry about them less. And when I go back to their ISOs and find that they have not had as much game-relevant content as I thought, that automatically jumps out to me.

I feel that it's scummy because it looks like they're trying to be memorable enough to have some good content attributed to them and to be considered as "posting enough" but aren't really doing anything to push the game forward.

I'm going to point this out for one reason: just because I don't agree with someone's logic doesn't mean that I think they're scum. In this case, spamming the thread at this point reads as null to me. If it becomes a pattern, I'll pay attention to it.

In other news I think BBM's defence of Paperblade is scummy because its based on discrediting all cases on him and scumreading people who're wagoning/scumreading Paper except his vote is on me for " picking on people on the Dormio wagon" which is literally the same thing he's doing except with the Paper scumreaders.

Y'know what I call it? "Exactly what I expect to see when someone is trying to defend a townread". In other words, I don't see that as a scumread.

And yes I DO think there is/was scum on the dormio wagon because it was fast and based off of dumb reasoning where people like to instantly think of dumb play as scum play. The people least likely to be scum from this wagon are Mitsuki and Shin, since they made an RVS vote/ have a confusing playstyle that makes them look scum as town and are a butt to read, respectively.

. . .but I don't think that Dormio's guilty of dumb play. I can buy the Mitsuki reason, but I think that trying to use the excuse "I can't read Shin" is a little lame. It's still pretty early in D1, and people are talking quite a bit about Shin - read it~!

This completely and utterly contradicts that one quote where I made notes of Dormio's content

Dormio's done quite a bit, but I'd like it if he'd explain his recent statements a bit more. That meta thing still bugs me, but it's not enough to drive a vote. Marth's starting to ping me a little, because that logic behind BBM makes no sense in my mind. Still happy with my Mancer vote, even if he finally has something original to his name (a Marth read~!).

[Percivalé]

Mmm, sorry, my reads haven't really been changing a lot since the last time I read. Hold on...

[Junk]

I'm gutreading kirsche as town and I also agree with the cases on shin.

[Percivalé]

Refa has a lot of empty content but it feels like he's doing it on purpose/acknowledges it so I don't know where to go from there.

Actually am scumreading BBM. He had to be prodded a couple of times to explain his reads (once with his Shin read and another with his Dormio read) and he's picking at relatively small things.

WRT the Paperblade thing (post here), I only remember me saying he was playing to his scum meta and then I think Mancer voted him--it reads to me like BBM wanted something to comment on and did that without reading thoroughly, since I was the only/one of the only people to get on Paperblade for "lurking" (I don't remember even wording it that way maybe I did??) and everyone else that got suspicious of Paper at that point mostly criticized him for his Dormio vote. He then turns around and goes "Well I like the rest of what Quote said so MEH" which seems unnecessary. So do you think my Paperblade read is scummy?

Dormio giving him an example of RVS-casing as town and him going "well he acts this way as any alignment then" reads like vague backpedaling

IDK his content just doesn't seem very strong to me right now

[Bluedoom]

Fuck I had a nice post and then it got eaten up ;-;

@eclipse: BBM's response implied that he would've voted Via for their Paper read if it was not for liking some of their posts. There's no mention of Randa, who literally sheeped my vote on Paperblade, and I'm not sure what he thinks of the others who scumread/got scummy vibes from him. However his vote on me is hypocritical since me ' nitpicking on Dormio wagon' can be compared to him 'nitpicking on the Paper wagon/scumreaders.' I think that's a good enough reason to scumread him :| .

I don't know about Shin. I get why people are casing him for ' accusing Dormio of self-meta when he had to use it to defend himself' but I think that's part of Town!Shin's play. Call it gut but I don't think scum would try to find some original(albeit bad) reasoning to hop on to a wagon forming during RVS. I haven't read his Via case though, so I'll need to do that.

[Junk]

##Unvote

Refa, I probably worded what I said badly. Whilst it wasn't a hard claim, the fact that kirsche drew attention to himself like that doesn't quite make sense unless he has something to gain from it. I agree the ambiguity is a little odd, but I'm reading it as "I want to say I'm a miller without saying I am miller".

I don't like how Dormio isn't actually responding to people, he's skirting around the issue and denying things. I also dislike the use of self-meta as a defense - which seems to be his alternative to replying to stuff.

##Vote: Dormio

also feel like this is sort of unclear? How isn't he responding to people. I don't see where he is denying things? He explained that he found kirsche scummy for how he worded his claim or at least that's what i'm getting from dormio's post.

[Percivalé]

Dormio had to use self-meta because BBM accused him of being scum based on his meta. and all the self-meta did was prove that he doesn't only RVS-case people as scum. so I don't know why it was scummy for him to use self-meta, people keep forgetting context

[Percivalé]

also feel like this is sort of unclear? How isn't he responding to people. I don't see where he is denying things?

yeah and I also agree with this

Shin's vote was just really awful

[eclipse]

Fuck I had a nice post and then it got eaten up ;-;

That's a sign that you should be in RP

@eclipse: BBM's response implied that he would've voted Via for their Paper read if it was not for liking some of their posts. There's no mention of Randa, who literally sheeped my vote on Paperblade, and I'm not sure what he thinks of the others who scumread/got scummy vibes from him. However his vote on me is hypocritical since me ' nitpicking on Dormio wagon' can be compared to him 'nitpicking on the Paper wagon/scumreaders.' I think that's a good enough reason to scumread him :| .

I don't know about Shin. I get why people are casing him for ' accusing Dormio of self-meta when he had to use it to defend himself' but I think that's part of Town!Shin's play. Call it gut but I don't think scum would try to find some original(albeit bad) reasoning to hop on to a wagon forming during RVS. I haven't read his Via case though, so I'll need to do that.

BBM: Eh, that's fair. Currently don't have much of a read on BBM, as he vanished because he has a life or something.

Shin: No, I think scum would most definitely try to find some original reason to hop on a wagon. Speaking of, the Shin cases haven't really changed my null read on him. I already explained why I'm meh on Dormio's logic, and the rest of the votes don't seem much better. However, it's better if he argues his own stance, because there's at least two people who can't seem to read him (Paperblade and Marth, IIRC), and the more he explains his logic, the easier it will be for them.

Dormio had to use self-meta because BBM accused him of being scum based on his meta. and all the self-meta did was prove that he doesn't only RVS-case people as scum. so I don't know why it was scummy for him to use self-meta, people keep forgetting context

First response that comes to mind is "if you're relying on meta over content, your case is weak", and leave it at that. I've already explained my thoughts on meta elsewhere.

Junk: Can you post a bit more than a scattered thought here and there? It's great that you have ideas, but I'd like to see the process behind the idea~!

[Junk]

I generally feel like the tone of kirsche's posts are townie. It's sort of hard to explain but yeah that;s my gutread on kirsche. I agree on the shin cases because of the self meta thing when dormio was answering a question about his meta combined with his viata vote in which he votes viata for asking bbm a weird question but viata had asked him due to an interesting play.

Also I feel like the general arguments at this time for why shin is null eg borons are based on meta which doesn't really help me since I've only ever only played one game with shin.

[eclipse]

I generally feel like the tone of kirsche's posts are townie. It's sort of hard to explain but yeah that;s my gutread on kirsche. I agree on the shin cases because of the self meta thing when dormio was answering a question about his meta combined with his viata vote in which he votes viata for asking bbm a weird question but viata had asked him due to an interesting play.

Also I feel like the general arguments at this time for why shin is null eg borons are based on meta which doesn't really help me since I've only ever only played one game with shin.

Weirdly enough, I can sort of follow Shin's train of thought. This is why I'm not sold on the cases against him. Then again, I've used the "indirect questioning" line of logic as part of a scumread before (not in this game, and can't be arsed to find it); thus, I'm not going to fault Shin for using it.

This is the first post from you that I think was worth calling out - it feels like there's not enough analysis as to what is driving Shin's posts.

[Percivalé]

I asked BBM if he would vote Shin

I didn't like his little thing about Shin at the end of his post it felt like something he just tacked on and I didn't like it

I'm confused and kinda wondering what about my question was indirect/scummy

[eclipse]

I asked BBM if he would vote Shin

I didn't like his little thing about Shin at the end of his post it felt like something he just tacked on and I didn't like it

I'm confused and kinda wondering what about my question was indirect/scummy

I feel like when someone asks "are you willing to vote X with me", and it's not to dodge a universal loss/have a lynch go through, it's a sign that they don't have enough faith in their case to persuade others. This is how I see things, and I have no idea if Shin follows the same line of thought.

(it also brings up some shitty memories from childhood which I'd rather not go into here)

[Percivalé]

I wasn't asking that

I was asking whether or not he thought Shin was scummy/would vote him because his add-on, if not to anyone else, felt waffly/fillery to me and I wanted clarification

[Percivalé]

I don't care if he's voting for Shin or not tbh heuehuehe.

strikes cool jrpg pose

[eclipse]

Welcome to mafia, where crossed wires happen all the time~!

(hurry up Other Side of the World and be wakey-wakey time!)