CYOU'RE - Game Over

[MancerNecro]

Uhh, stop what?

I don't like how you're assuming that Dormio's early game case and posts are content when they are not, SB. His questions, prods and pokes are not really content. The fact that you're voting me because of such an assumption makes me feel like your case is weak and forced.

I did not say you could not find Dormio not-scum, lol.

It's all WIFOM since scum can just pretend to draw attention to themselves in order to appear townie, as both you and Randa seem to think that Dormio is town for.

[charlie_]

But... it is content? He made a case and everything. I'm not voting you based on that, I'm voting you for misinterpreting his posts and generally agreeing with whatever point gets brought up, even if it conflicts with your reads (see: the stuff on Dormio).

[charlie_]

And I never said that I thought Dormio was townie? Just that the cases on him were wrong.

[Dormio]

Still sticking to my Shin vote.
But that's boring.

I don't really agree with the MancerNecro votes. Whatever.

I tried to read Randa's posts but found that my eyes kind of just ended up glazing over them and I couldn't really get anything out of trying to read them so I gave up on that.

I agree with what Sunwoo says about Refa in his #190 and would like Refa to update his opinions a bit more.

Quite curious about Reinfleche too. Would like it a lot if he were to post again.

God there are too many people in this game and it's way too hard to keep track of who's who.

[Dormio]

WTB> Votecounts

[charlie_]

Shin, what exactly IS your read on BBM? You say he's mixed but you just say "he's attacking some people but defending others" which is a comment on his play, not his alignment. And the Via vote is also really grasping, it looks like he's going after them because they asked BBM about their vote and Shin can't really understand where their suspicions are coming from? Half of the stuff there isn't even related to Via's content.

Boron, why are your strongest scumreads at this point all for basically having low content? Refa's latest posts have basically been saying "yeah I'm busy", so of course they're not gonna have content or updates on how he feels about Dormio in them? And the Paper suspicion doesn't really make much sense to me either, I don't think his content levels are particularly low for this stage in the game either. The Randa point is a little better but I still don't really agree with it.

Mitsuki reads like she's sort of white knighting Dormio to me and it's sort of concerning? Especially to the point that eclipse is her second priority because she made a passing mention of something she didn't like, and didn't even vote for Dormio based off of it (and she had 2 votes to do it with), which is really blowing things out of proportion here. How is that worse than Mancer or Randa?

##Unvote
##Vote: Boron

It feels like there's no real initiative in her scumhunting and the lack of content angle is way easier to push than looking at actually scummy actions, and considering it's still ED1 why is not having a lot of content a big deal? And uh, if you're just saying "I don't agree with the Shin votes because it's Shin", do you have a way to read him otherwise?

[Shinori]

OH GOD THERE ARE ELEVEN PAGES ALREADY.

[Prims]

Day 1.3 - Votals

Shin (4): Dormio, kirsche, Quote, Mitsuki

Randa (3): Reinfleche, dirge of swans, Paperblade

Paperblade (2): Bluedoom, Randa

Bluedoom (1): BBM

Dormio (1): Refa

kirsche (1): Euklyd

MancerNecro (1): eclipse

Refa (1): Sunwoo

SB. (1): MancerNecro

Sunwoo (1): SB.

Via (1): Shin

Not Voting (5): Da Bear, Junk, Polydeuces, Shinori, #HBC Larsa

There are 53 hours and 22 minutes left in the phase. With 21 alive, it takes 7 to deadline lynch and 11 to hammer.

I've been informed that Larsa has encountered IRL issues and may not be able to play. If he goes 48 hours from day start without posting then I will look into finding a replacement.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Prims

[Sunwoo]

Boron, why are your strongest scumreads at this point all for basically having low content? Refa's latest posts have basically been saying "yeah I'm busy", so of course they're not gonna have content or updates on how he feels about Dormio in them? And the Paper suspicion doesn't really make much sense to me either, I don't think his content levels are particularly low for this stage in the game either. The Randa point is a little better but I still don't really agree with it.

It is less that they have low content but rather the ratio of content vs spam. If Refa is busy, that's fine. But what he was doing read to me as if he were artificially inflating his post count, to make it look like he contributed more than he actually did. Also, I am not suspicious of Paper for having low content. I'm feel like he has too much irrelevant crap.

I mean, did you even read what I actually said about Refa and Paper? Having low content in itself is fine if you're just not posting often or if what you do say is pretty definitive and clear. But that wasn't my point. Having too much irrelevant crap compared to content, especially when your content doesn't feel all that strong, is suspicious.

It feels like there's no real initiative in her scumhunting and the lack of content angle is way easier to push than looking at actually scummy actions, and considering it's still ED1 why is not having a lot of content a big deal? And uh, if you're just saying "I don't agree with the Shin votes because it's Shin", do you have a way to read him otherwise?

See above for response to the "lack of content" angle. Also, do not forget that in Yume Nikki and British mafia, Refa and Paper were scum in those respective games, and a major indicator for both of them being scum was the lack of content and the amount of empty noise they had. So it isn't like we've never caught scum over lack of content or that it's so unheard of or "easy" to do so.

Also, you're acting like I said people are not allowed to vote Shin, when that is not the case. I just personally don't see what he is doing as a scum tell even if I can understand why other people do. I can't read Shin's posts and peg him as town or scum on D1. He does things that everyone else sees as scummy but is rarely an indicator of alignment, and so rather than falling into the same stupid trap everyone seems to I'd rather WAIT until I can have a definite opinion of him. Would you prefer I lie and say I have a definite opinion on him when I don't?

As for "no real initiative in scum hunting", you'll just have to forgive me if I just start off slow in some games and I'm too distracted with my thesis work to give this game my 100% because I'm probably not going to graduate again.

[Junk]

wait did I really forget to vote?

##Vote Mancer Necro

[charlie_]

Yeah but content:spam ratio doesn't really matter if the content is there, does it? Nobody was townreading Refa/Paper/Randa off of it (except maybe me I guess), so I don't see why posting more is meant to help them look better? People don't get townread off of activity levels or anything like that. I guess your Paper suspicion makes a bit more sense now but he does that in other games anyway? I think he was more focused on posting content itself in Tyne-Wear than spammy stuff too but yeah.

And yeah you can catch scum on lack of content but managing it ED1 is kind of a fluke if it happens because people can be busy, so I think pushing this angle at this stage in the game is wrong, basically.

I'm not saying you have to have an opinion on Shin, I was asking if you a way to read him because you just seemed like you were kind of dodging around it and wanted to see how you responded to it.

[BBM]

@Quote- What I meant was that I would vote Shin at deadline but don't see much to add to the case right now.

I feel like Shin's Via case is reactionary and forced; he doesn't actually list anything that's alignment-relevant. I don't understand why Via needs to have as much conviction in their secondary reads either.

@Boron- basis of my Dormio read was the kirsche case, not the meta. So I don't think that's correct.

sorry guys kind of busy

[Sunwoo]

Yeah but content:spam ratio doesn't really matter if the content is there, does it? Nobody was townreading Refa/Paper/Randa off of it (except maybe me I guess), so I don't see why posting more is meant to help them look better? People don't get townread off of activity levels or anything like that. I guess your Paper suspicion makes a bit more sense now but he does that in other games anyway? I think he was more focused on posting content itself in Tyne-Wear than spammy stuff too but yeah.

Except I feel that it does? If a certain person is posting frequently and you realize that they are posting frequently, it looks like they are contributing more. But sometimes you don't realize how ~little~ of the stuff they said is actually helpful or contributory to the game. I had that impression with Refa when I was looking at his ISO. I thought he said a lot more than he actually said, and I find his current stance and opinions very unclear.

And yes, I know that people don't get town reads off activity levels alone, but if a person appears to be posting frequently and their content isn't knee-jerk terrible, aren't most peoples' initial reactions going to be "oh, they're contributing and what they're posting isn't terrible"? That's usually what my initial D1 reactions are to people. If I feel that a person is posting frequently enough content to stick in my memory, I automatically tend to worry about them less. And when I go back to their ISOs and find that they have not had as much game-relevant content as I thought, that automatically jumps out to me.

I feel that it's scummy because it looks like they're trying to be memorable enough to have some good content attributed to them and to be considered as "posting enough" but aren't really doing anything to push the game forward.

And yeah you can catch scum on lack of content but managing it ED1 is kind of a fluke if it happens because people can be busy, so I think pushing this angle at this stage in the game is wrong, basically.

Maybe less than 24 hours into the game is a bit too early, but at that point it was the strongest suspicions that I had and it at least lets them know that I'm not particularly satisfied with their content and hopefully convince them to step it up more. Would you have preferred if I sat back and pushed nothing because what was pinging me is apparently "too early"?

I'm not saying you have to have an opinion on Shin, I was asking if you a way to read him because you just seemed like you were kind of dodging around it and wanted to see how you responded to it.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I am really bad at reading Shin in mafia games. Maybe I just haven't played with him enough but if he has scum tells I am not aware of them and what I do see is that he always does something that everyone thinks is suspicious, but more often than not flips town anyway. I'd rather wait until I have a better read on him rather than trying to force a read that I myself have no basis for.

[Sunwoo]

@Boron- basis of my Dormio read was the kirsche case, not the meta. So I don't think that's correct.

Okay, I screwed up there and totally forgot that the meta was more of a side note initially. But this statement you made still makes me a bit leery of you.

Dormio once wrote like an entire essay for an RVS case, as scum. It's probably true that the meta isn't necessarily correct because I haven't played with Dormio for a while, but it's definitely wrong that scum!Dormio wouldn't make big RVS cases that attract attention (something someone else said).

Also seriously guys I'll admit I forgot that Dormio actually makes RVS cases as town too (I haven't played with town!Dormio for a while okay) but as he himself said, he does it as scum too. This is how he plays, so really, don't give him towncred for being the first one to start stuff.

If Dormio does this as both town and scum, then his action is more of a null read, isn't it? It felt like you were trying to keep calling him scum on the basis of a meta read that was flawed.

[charlie_]

That response seems fair at a glance. Will think about my vote again in the morning I guess.

[Percivalé]

Boron's play did strike me as a little non-committal too but the reason I haven't treated it as scummy/important is because I think the way she goes about it is more earlygame/early D1 cautiousness than scum active lurking.

By the way I don't really remember like anyone's meta except Paper Refa Mancer kinda SB I guess. That and everyone's styles have changed a lot. Like when I thought what Dormio was doing seemed townie and then BBM made the point that he acts that way regardless of alignment so now I'm just kinda null, I will make points without knowing "how people play" so sorry in advance but I will stick to what I think is scummy despite meta arguments I guess.

The whole Paperblade thing, again, was me being paranoid and spouting shit that didn't really matter & I just have grudges from past games lol

I'm rereading but my opinions still aren't really changing much. Still want to lynch Shin, etc

[Randa]

i will not be posting anything tonight for an assortment of irl things. so it'll probably be like 16 hours before i can next post. sorry.

[Bluedoom]

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Maybe I should've posted in WW before this ;-;.

Paper's recent content is still not impressive and my vote is staying where it is.

Accuses Randa of being wishy-washy except his own vote on Randa is wishy-washy. Because things like saying ' it feels like he has no actual opinions on people' without actually citing particular posts which make him feel that way or really adding on points to that just feel weak and wishy-washy.

@SB: Saying that Paperblade has a weak D1 regardless of alignment is still a blanket statement at best because there will always be differences between his D1 Scumplay and D1 Townplay. I'm glad that you brought up Tyne-Wear : Paperblade actually had LESS content there than you think(his ISO is just a page.) There was this certain indecisiveness in his tone and he waffled between reads like his read on you and camtech.

@BBM: If you want me to specify, Paperblade is a smart player who can tell the difference between a dumb town play and a scum play. The Dormio thing could go either way, so why did he think this was a scum play? What's the scum benefit in doubting the miller claim and overreacting? Also, if he wanted to pressure Dormio and add on to the wagon, he wouldn't type a paragraph to show that he was suspicious of Dormio repeating stuff others have said, instead as town he'd just jump on to the wagon and say he's sheeping someone's case. I know that Scumblade feels like posting to make it seem like he has content even though its hard for him to fake it, so this is telling IMO.

For those trying to understand what I mean, you could read two ISOs. THey're all on the first post of their respective games anyway.

1. Read Red Eye's ISO from Shin Megami Tensei Mafia. This was Pblade's alias in that game and he was Town.

2. Read Pblade's ISO from Tyne Wear Mafia. He was scum in that game.

In other news I think BBM's defence of Paperblade is scummy because its based on discrediting all cases on him and scumreading people who're wagoning/scumreading Paper except his vote is on me for " picking on people on the Dormio wagon" which is literally the same thing he's doing except with the Paper scumreaders.

And yes I DO think there is/was scum on the dormio wagon because it was fast and based off of dumb reasoning where people like to instantly think of dumb play as scum play. The people least likely to be scum from this wagon are Mitsuki and Shin, since they made an RVS vote/ have a confusing playstyle that makes them look scum as town and are a butt to read, respectively.

I think Boron's points on Refa are valid, but I'm not as confident meta-reading him and I'd like to read more of his content n the future before trying to make an informed read on him.

I get where the Randa/Mancer scumreads are coming from, but the thing is, I think Randa's play as town is not decisive and spammy as well. Mancer could go either way, because when I townread him as an observer in Hard NOCs I was wrong and I remember him waffling over his opinions in Hard NOCs before he eventually got lynched D1. So this could be a repeat of scum! Mancer. Actually, I think I'm more comfortable lynching Mancer than Randa, should I be given that choice at deadline.

[Refa]

Was planning on making a post today, but a bunch of stuff happened (like, not bad stuff, just time consuming) and I'm kind of demotivated because of Hard NOC's 2. Will try to get something out, but meh. Mafia sucks.

[#HBC Larsa]

WTF @ 11 pages. Holy shit. I'm here now though, been working like crazy so yuh. Catch up in a few. I just walked in the door.

[MancerNecro]

@Bluedoom: What in the world is your last paragraph? You shouldn't really be consolidating reads so early on in the game, really.

There isn't really much reasons for me to scum read Paperblade at this point. His play so far reads as null to me. I'm refusing to use meta to vote someone when I don't actually know their meta at all.

I don't see the Shin case either but I seem to notice that Shin has been pretty focused onto Dormio so far that I'm thinking of taking a second look at him in a while.

I don't like Levity seeming to gut read players so much in this game but they seem to do it every game as both alignments?

[Percivalé]

i gutread someone like once

[MancerNecro]

I might have misread something or other but I seem to recall you mentioning Paperblade and someone else on that note too.

[Junk]

I don't really get bluedoom's scumread on paper? I feel like it's basically paperblade was a smart player so why did he do this?

[MancerNecro]

Boron's play did strike me as a little non-committal too but the reason I haven't treated it as scummy/important is because I think the way she goes about it is more earlygame/early D1 cautiousness than scum active lurking.

By the way I don't really remember like anyone's meta except Paper Refa Mancer kinda SB I guess. That and everyone's styles have changed a lot. Like when I thought what Dormio was doing seemed townie and then BBM made the point that he acts that way regardless of alignment so now I'm just kinda null, I will make points without knowing "how people play" so sorry in advance but I will stick to what I think is scummy despite meta arguments I guess.

The whole Paperblade thing, again, was me being paranoid and spouting shit that didn't really matter & I just have grudges from past games lol

I'm rereading but my opinions still aren't really changing much. Still want to lynch Shin, etc

Urgh, you were talking about meta reads and not gut reads, lol...

Since I found this post again, care to elaborate what you think of Paperblade, Refa, SB and I from our metas? You brought up the whole issue only to put your meta reads down again.