How to make Armor Knights more valuable?

[Jotari]

I found it sort of strange Shadow Dragon didn't have NPCs. I know the original game didn't because the idea wasn't thought up yet and it would be easier to do but there are quite a few examples where you enemy units acting completely like neutral NPC units. Aside from Maria, Xane also comes to mind. Lena and Julian are another case where they're player characters that could have been NPCs.

[Gradivus.]

Are we assuming the highest difficulties? AKs on FE12 H3 would be pretty much trash aside from Prologue!MU since they get doubled by too much and thus can't deal damage quickly enough either, which doesn't bring much even at capped / near-capped defense. On FE11, Silvers from C10 on don't help AKs and Steel Lance!Cavs drill the chest of every AK anyways after a round from another unit. The problem is that a mediocre defense + bad speed = bad defense. (Unlike Sedgar/Wolf who show up with 15 base def and proc easily, while General!Arran doesn't even face the doubling problem) I only finished the highest difficulties on FE11 and FE12 so far in case you wonder.

And as for the edited C10 map, you basically just make it more challenging/more challenging to ltc, there is no need to use AKs rather than General!Wolf/Sedgar. Hero!Wolf/Sedgar can also do more consistently by not getting doubled and being healable anyways.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Gradivus.

[Sweet_Basil]

How about making them the most effective boss killers? Or have enemy strong reinforcements spawn behind your army making knights/generals effective to blocking them out?

[dondon151]

i am so confused by that map, but i'm willing to bet that map can be cheesed without using armor knights and without using warp.

[Carmine Sword]

The problem with using a General as a boss killer is that their low move makes it take forever for them to reach the boss, and their high CON means you can't even speed up this process by carrying them with a mounted unit. In addition, the low speed of Generals means that they are more than likely not doubling the boss, and may be in danger of being doubled themselves, as bosses are generally faster than normal mooks. So Generals can't reach the boss in a timely fashion, won't deal much damage due to not doubling, and will likely take a large amount of damage in return due to being doubled.

[Psych]

I'm a pretty casual player in that I don't care at all for turn counts and will turtle to hell, and I still don't use armor knights except for maybe half a dozen times in the series or less.

FE4 where I can use everyone

FE5 where they bring me the niche of using lances indoors

FE10 where I really just like Meg and baby the hell out of her

The rest of the times their low movement dissuade me from bringing them. I also use too many magic units and healers, so the durability aspect they might provide me is usually fixed by having 4-5 healers in my party. So as long as I don't lose someone in one round, I can effectively tank forever. Awakening helped nerf this strategy by preventing Sorcerers from healing but it has other issues.

I can also just sit at max range and when someone comes to attack I blast them from range, so I don't really need a tank. If they had some sort of skill like Provoke or a reverse Stillness in 10 where they have to be attacked before any other unit in range, I'd have more reason to use Knights.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Psych

[Jotari]

Hmm. What if there was a F5/9/10 style skill that makes it so you can never be doubled (possibly at the trade off of not being able to double yourself). Not all that useful for a lot classes for players but would solve a lot of problems Armor Knights have with combat (and could make for an interesting enemy skill).

[General Banzai]

Yeah but you have to accept that the more complex you make the chapter, the more likely it is that people just want to opt to cheese it.

I'm pretty sure IS actually designs complicated chapters with the possibility of cheesing them as an opt out for people who find it too hard

And they do it for the same reason they throw units like Seth right at you in the very beginning

IS has been trying to make this game more accessible to filthy casuals for a long time while not losing their hardcore audience

I'm pretty sure Seth and Warp and other such things are not meant to be the tools of a dondon but the tools of a snowy, which is ironically the opposite of how they're used

Edited December 10, 2014 by General Banzai

[Irysa]

I'd agree with that, but I don't think it changes my point. FE's flexible self imposed difficulty is a huge element of it's design but if you go too far even masochists like me want to just say screw it and make it easier.

I mean, even presupposing I don't just warpskip the map, I may just opt to warp some units around for convenience. This already greatly simplifies things. Maps like H5 wooden cavalry are a good example.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Irysa

[Emperor Hardin]

Right, I always used a General in Shadow Dragon Chapter 10 to blockade the door. I used two generals to blockade the entrance in both versions of the Archanea Palace map as well.

More situations where Generals can act as wall, as well as more Defend chapters would do the class good.

I was thinking that Armored Classes should have the same movement as other infantry classes, Radiant Dawn kinda did that to my recollection but they couldn't keep up by the point everyone reached third tier. Movement is important because you need Armor units to get to the places they need to defend.

[Baldrick]

If something makes the chapter too easy to cheese, measures should be taken against it. In this case, things such as redesigning the structure of the map, putting Maria in unWarp-able terrain, having the AI or reinforcements change based on the movement of your units might help to stop Warp from being a dominant strategy.

[Jotari]

Or just don't make Warp Staves available so early in the game with so many uses.

[Ownagepuffs]

I'm pretty sure IS actually designs complicated chapters with the possibility of cheesing them as an opt out for people who find it too hard

And they do it for the same reason they throw units like Seth right at you in the very beginning

IS has been trying to make this game more accessible to filthy casuals for a long time while not losing their hardcore audience

I'm pretty sure Seth and Warp and other such things are not meant to be the tools of a dondon but the tools of a snowy, which is ironically the opposite of how they're used

Why is it so funny that you turned them into categories? I shouldn't be laughing this much.

Anyway.

Hmm. What if there was a F5/9/10 style skill that makes it so you can never be doubled (possibly at the trade off of not being able to double yourself). Not all that useful for a lot classes for players but would solve a lot of problems Armor Knights have with combat (and could make for an interesting enemy skill).

I like this idea.

Here's another problem with knights. Targeting priority. Knights are supposed to protect my units but if I put a priest next to a knight the enemy will go for the priest every time. This is why Knights need skills to draw aggro from the enemy and cover allies. Skills like the one I suggested (a lure skill and a cover skill) would make them so much more useful. The problem is that you are never rewarded for using your knights. Once you get your cavs up to par then you get 8/9 mov ball stompers. Get your Mercs up to par and you get a fast, strong, durable, kill everything Hero. Get your fliers up to par and you get 8/9 mov ball stompers that can fly over mountains for days. get your knights up to par and you get.... 5 mov. Where's my incentive, y'know?

[Ether]

FE as it is just emphasizes offence over defence, the simple reason being that if all of your units except your armour are in constant danger of being nigh unusable due to enemy strength, the game would just... flop. Choking the point becomes the only viable strategy unless people aside from the armour can take hits, and as long as they can, then the armour is superfluous. The game being designed as it is just makes armour knights a bad class line. They're usable enough in casual runs but you would practically have to gut the game to make them "good" in a general sense. Not worth it, really.

[arvilino]

Hmm. What if there was a F5/9/10 style skill that makes it so you can never be doubled (possibly at the trade off of not being able to double yourself). Not all that useful for a lot classes for players but would solve a lot of problems Armor Knights have with combat (and could make for an interesting enemy skill).

I'm not sure about that, making Knights never get doubled would mean that magic users won't actually be effective against them.

I think Pavise+ from Awakening could be an alternative, halving all Sword/Axe/Lance(maybe add Bows) damage they recieve counteracts doubling and gives them a defensive benefit even if the enemies are too slow to double. The fact it's halving it means that Knights don't need as much defense to be survivable so situations like General Sedgar/Wolf taking 0 damage from almost anything could be avoided as their defense growth wouldn't need to be so high.

Edit:Though this would be limited to Knights/Generals rather than a skill other classes can use.

Edited December 11, 2014 by arvilino

[Jotari]

I'm not sure about that, making Knights never get doubled would mean that magic users won't actually be effective against them.

I think Pavise+ from Awakening could be an alternative, halving all Sword/Axe/Lance(maybe add Bows) damage they recieve counteracts doubling and gives them a defensive benefit even if the enemies are too slow to double. The fact it's halving it means that Knights don't need as much defense to be survivable so situations like General Sedgar/Wolf taking 0 damage from almost anything could be avoided as their defense growth wouldn't need to be so high.

Edit:Though this would be limited to Knights/Generals rather than a skill other classes can use.

I don't think it would make mages obsolete against them. They'll still be able to take down Knights in two hits. Typically a good mage would take 3/4HP off a good knight (I reckon) which means you'd just have to lead the charge with the mage (who probably won't be count attacked) and finish off the charge with another character. Also my suggestion is that of a limited supply skill. Meaning you'll only be able to equip it to one of your units and not all enemy knights/generals will have it.

[JechtShotMK9]

How about a cover skill, in which they can take the damage from an attacked unit within 3 spaces by automatically moving to an adjacent space to that unit? This would aid in defense, and also give them somewhat of a movement boost without actually affecting their movement stat.

[Elieson]

How about a cover skill, in which they can take the damage from an attacked unit within 3 spaces by automatically moving to an adjacent space to that unit? This would aid in defense, and also give them somewhat of a movement boost without actually affecting their movement stat.

given the current mechanics, they're still getting slaughtered in higher difficulties by getting doubled from every enemy under the sun

[Ownagepuffs]

Automatically warping Knights via a skill just sounds.. Weird? A lure skill that attracts targeting priority would be more appropriate.

given the current mechanics, they're still getting slaughtered in higher difficulties by getting doubled from every enemy under the sun

I like the idea that prevents Knights from getting doubled but they can't double either. It wouldn't even be that bad for Knights since they never double anyway

[dondon151]

I like the idea that prevents Knights from getting doubled but they can't double either. It wouldn't even be that bad for Knights since they never double anyway

that would make knights a nightmare as an enemy class

[Jotari]

that would make knights a nightmare as an enemy class

I was the one that suggested it here, as a non class based skill. Meaning you'd most likely put it on your Knight(s) but not all enemy knights would necessarily have it and indeed, you could end up fighting other enemy classes that can't be doubled, but in turn can't double.

[General Banzai]

that would make knights a nightmare as an enemy class

x4 effective bonuses to compensate

[Ownagepuffs]

that would make knights a nightmare as an enemy class

Early game Knights would be unkillable and General bosses on thrones would be hard as fuck.

You have a point. Hmm, well if knights are used sparingly by the enemy then it wouldn't be that bad, right? Knights/Generals don't pop up too much as endgame enemies. Killer Crits and Effective weapons are options too.

But I can't imagine how much it would suck for 0% Growths.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Ownagepuffs

[Nicolas]

If enemy would actually play offensive and overall gameplay would be more balanced about player/enemy phase and offence/deffence stuff Armor Knight would be so damn valuable. If you actually have to hold an enemy's agresive strikes armour knight would be better. But they stats also need change. Now they aren't so durable with low res and taking double damage.

However making FE more focused on player phase and making enemies more aggressive request totally rebuild of whole FE concept. No longer OP paladins nad filers, somehow viable archers, new concept about AI (AI more like tactician, less like brainless sending weak troops to death), new concept of level design (few strong units, not just horde of weak loliders, more focus on map, more map options) et cetera, et cetera... So after all that would not be FE game as we know. That would be really different, probably more like AW games. And Nintendo will never do that, because that takes risk and thaye are more focused on having stable profit. Like almost every other big company.

[arvilino]

If enemy would actually play offensive and overall gameplay would be more balanced about player/enemy phase and offence/deffence stuff Armor Knight would be so damn valuable. If you actually have to hold an enemy's agresive strikes armour knight would be better. But they stats also need change. Now they aren't so durable with low res and taking double damage.

However making FE more focused on player phase and making enemies more aggressive request totally rebuild of whole FE concept. No longer OP paladins nad filers, somehow viable archers, new concept about AI (AI more like tactician, less like brainless sending weak troops to death), new concept of level design (few strong units, not just horde of weak loliders, more focus on map, more map options) et cetera, et cetera... So after all that would not be FE game as we know. That would be really different, probably more like AW games. And Nintendo will never do that, because that takes risk and thaye are more focused on having stable profit. Like almost every other big company.

Excluding a smart AI and "map options", Awakening's chapter design is largely like that. The more compact chapter maps and enemy placement lends itself to that sort of design where you have enemies starting within range of your units and taking you on in pincer attacks immediately(e.g. Chapter 3,14) or sandwiching the player between reinforcements and current enemies becoming aggresive(e.g. Chapter 9, 16), enemies acting in waves( e.g. Chapter 12,14).

AK's are just less important in that game because they(pretty much just Kellam) are better for boosting the defense of other units than taking on enemies themselves.

Edited December 16, 2014 by arvilino