Anyone feel like Kozaki is the perfect Fire Emblem character designer?

[goodperson707]

I think the reason the earlier non-Tellius games don't get as much flak is partly that they'd talked about less in general, and partly that expectations hadn't been set (e.g. RD's lack of support convos are generally made a bigger deal of compared to the SNES games.)

The deal with Tellius is that I think none of the specialist riders have bare legs and Mist is in the minority.

I wish they'd kept whoever did Tellius or Thracia's designs because pants just look better on any physical unit IMO.

oh yeah i know mist is the minority but it still feels like some people blame awakening for the bare legs and ignore the fact that NO fire emblem games have all riders with fully covered legs, I forgot about Nanna for thracia, man I'm freaking blind. Edited April 11, 2015 by goodperson707

[Thor Odinson]

I don't think anyone blames Awakening for bare legs as much as just continued annoyance with something that has always been an annoyance

but Awakening is more recent and just gets talked about more is all

Edited April 11, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[goodperson707]

^ it might just be me getting annoyed at people ignoring the previous games in general, but some people at least to me seem to think some of awakenings elements or trends (not just the art.) they dislike are new or might as well be new to awakening but they are really not.

[NuggetofButt]

Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about the bare legs in Fire Emblem Awakening, must just be lucky. But then again, I've only been on this forum for two days, and the usual forum I go on is pretty much all women, and we're all pretty good with fanservice-y designs, sooooo.

I don't care about practicality or sexualization when it comes to armor, I just don't like armor that's stupid looking in general. Not to offend anyone who does like the armor, that's just my personal opinion.

Like I said before, Kozaki is solid for the most part but some designs look like they belong on a runway. The 'artistic' runway, not the 'hey, this is actually nice looking' runway. There are definitely artists that I like better though.

Edited April 11, 2015 by NuggetofButt

[Dark Holy Elf]

I do think that complaining about bare legs on saddles in a fantasy game is being a bit too picky? Maybe they have a non-chafing materials to make saddles out of, who knows. This goes double for the pegasus/wyvern riders, since I have to imagine the physics of riding a flying creature would be quite different than a ground-based one (it probably lacks the repeated up-and-down motion of being on horseback, at least).

Not that one can't prefer the fully-pantsed designs for other reasons (I tend to myself; I love those FE10 official arts that just got posted!) but honestly I don't think this should be a deal-breaker.

Also if it is indeed the art director who is responsible for all the armour then I must revise my opinion of Kozaki upwards.

[goodperson707]

^ yeah i do actually prefer the pants for riders but i don't see the point of complaining about the impracticality of the boot skirt thing. Whats next people complaining that silver is a horrible weapon material even if its just silvered.

[Saladus]

People are a bunch of prudes who take offense at the slightest bit of skin or cleavage shown. What really grinds my gears is people who complain about characters like Tharja or Aversa being "over-sexualised", and yet these same people have no problem with the fact that Hawkeye is bare-chested, despite it being the male version of the exact same thing.

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

A topless man like Hawkeye makes an impression of strength. Tharja does not.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Saladus

[Ϲharlie]

Whats next people complaining that silver is a horrible weapon material even if its just silvered.

That can't be next considering it already happened.

[Irysa]

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

A shirtless man like Hawkeye makes an impression of strength. Tharja does not.

"male power fantasy" argument isn't an objective argument, because it removes agency from women and only looks at it from a narrow perspective. This comic goes around a lot but it's just a strawman from one subjective viewpoint. Many straight men like Hirohiko Araki's designs and art in the JoJo series, and many of those most certainly fit into the niche the author of this comic attempted to portray.

And male Dark Mages are dressed in extremely similar attire to Tharja anyway.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Irysa

[Rewjeo]

Regardless, I don't think Hawkeye is generally considered to have much sex appeal, does he? His design is also more consistent with his character (though actually logically you would want to be fairly covered in a desert) than what we've seen of, say, Camilla, who seems to be a more caring older sister type.

We've already established that Tharja isn't really a huge problem (though I'd rather she didn't exist anyway).I think it's fair to say that there's a difference between a sexualized model (they're almost chibis...) and a sexualized portrait/OA, though.

I do think that complaining about bare legs on saddles in a fantasy game is being a bit too picky? Maybe they have a non-chafing materials to make saddles out of, who knows. This goes double for the pegasus/wyvern riders, since I have to imagine the physics of riding a flying creature would be quite different than a ground-based one (it probably lacks the repeated up-and-down motion of being on horseback, at least).

I would imagine that dragons would be even worse, actually, since basically every flap would move them up and they would fall in between. Pegasi canonically fly with magic and not wings, though, so I suppose it could be the smoothest thing in the world.

In any case, that still doesn't explain why they would bother baring their legs. Even in situations where practical concerns aren't important, people don't randomly expose just their thighs. And even if there is some reason in Fire Emblem, why don't men do it? I mean, one of the arguments for Tsubaki being a man is pants. It really is obviously about sexualization for no in-game reason. I just want some internal consistency. Taste plays a part, too, sure, but my complaints regarding FExSMT zipper panties is different from this since they really just stem from the taste side of things.

Edit: Regarding the prude comment, I'd like to point out that I chose Nailah as a design I like. She shows lots of leg, cleavage, and shoulder. She's got pretty big breasts, and she's tatted. But that works for her character. (On the topic of Nailah, perhaps Volug would be a better example of male sex appeal? Just a thought.)

Edited April 11, 2015 by Rewjeo

[Rawkstar]

"Stop bitching about chainmail bikinis. No one wants to see fully armored badassery. Thats just silly!"

Please. If you honestly cannot imagine more interesting designs instead of slips of cloth and thigh cutouts, then you dont have much room to speak about such matters.

Did you even read my post? The first thing I said is that it's a game and that canonical correctness shouldn't be a high priority. Nowhere did I say "being fully armored is boring/silly/etc. I said it would be boring if EVERYONE followed the exact same formula when it comes to constructing a character's appearance. And I also never said that thigh cutouts or any of that is more interesting (though I wouldn't disagree with that statement). If you close yourself off to an idea before it even has a chance to make a good impression, you are guaranteed to not like it. Maybe it's unnecessary, but so is having colored hair. Would I ride into battle with my **** hanging out? Probably not, but it's not like I'm going to automatically be against someone who would do that, no matter how stupid I think it is.

No one in real life has ever gone into battle riding a horse (or anything) with their thighs bared, at least not when they had the choice not to. It's hard to get dumber than that without doing something fatal (like refusing to armor your chest...) And, really, a lot of the problem is that it makes no sense in universe. For instance, we know certain peoples have gone into battle stark naked in real life. Not because ~oooh naked bodies~ for random spectators (who don't even exist from their perspective) but because of the psychological effect it would have on opponents (and perhaps themselves). They had a reason. People riding mounts without proper pants will do them no good, except perhaps attracting men when they're in uniform but not fighting - and, really, honestly, do you think that every female in the game is that kind of person? It should be extremely rare that a person sacrifices function in the context of war for sex appeal. Now think of characters like Sully. It is totally out of character for Sully to try and be ~sexy~ instead of kicking butt. That's why I don't have as big a problem with Tharja's outfit being on Tharja (while DLC Micaiah is a travesty). But it still bothers me that mostly she just hangs out and no one really cares.

As far as it being boring: look up old designs.

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF NATIVE AMAERICANS?! They wore almost nothing, and they did it willingly. Why did they do it? I'll tell you why: (a) range of motion, (b) traditional values, and © speed is it's own form of defense. REMEMBER RATH FROM FE7? WHY DON'T I SEE CRITICISMS OF HIS CHARACTER ART? I also fail to understand why you think I want every female to be like this? (I bolded the statement in your quote where you suggested this.) I never even implied that. I'm just saying, if there's a character or two who stand out for seductive reasons, who really cares? I don't want some soft-porno art, no one does. But I don't mind a few over-sexualized characters in a GAME. You have to realize that there are people like this in real life. People who are narcissistic and obsessed with their looks; who aren't necessarily good people, and who we seem to think "have it all wrong". But you know what? I think that those imperfections are much more interesting. I think that it creates a form of publicity for this game, and I think that who ever is investing their time in creating these designs has the right to do what he wants. If you don't like it, boycott it. Or be a good fan, and overlook what you don't like. But don't judge something without a proper reason.

People are a bunch of prudes who take offense at the slightest bit of skin or cleavage shown. What really grinds my gears is people who complain about characters like Tharja or Aversa being "over-sexualised", and yet these same people have no problem with the fact that Hawkeye is bare-chested, despite it being the male version of the exact same thing.

Another reason to hate this fandom, amirite? Nah, but I'm glad to see someone sees eye to eye with me on this subject. And I totally agree with the point you bring up. I just don't get the frustration with any of this to be honest. I mean the game is about war, and the idea of sex and seduction is what's pissing people off. That's hilarious to me.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Rawkstar

[Irysa]

Just my two cents, but I care more about how the design actually looks and feels within the design and the setting than anything else. If the design is consistent and coherent, then unless it clashes massively with the setting I wouldn't object. This is why I don't like the fact that female Paladins in Awakening have their armor just removed around the groin area, it clashes with the rest of the design.

Additionally, designs should try to be coherant and consistent with each other to a degree, and some of the designs in the trailer fail to fufill this too. Flair is nice and all but when some characters are formally dressed on a battlefield and others are wearing stuff I don't even know what for no discernable reason or role appropriate facilitation (hi Camilla) then that contrast is what irks me the most, it detracts from the overall cohesiveness of the game's aesthetic.

If everyone was just wearing goofy outfits then I'd probably say it impacted the tone of the narrative. If the narrative was equally goofy, then I have nothing to complain about.

Regardless, I don't think Hawkeye is generally considered to have much sex appeal, does he?

(On the topic of Nailah, perhaps Volug would be a better example of male sex appeal? Just a thought.)

I think Volug is hot so I'd agree with that, but I think it's ludicrous to make an authorative statement that Hawkeye is not attractive to any women or gay men whatsoever. "Bara" is a thing.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Irysa

[NinjaMonkey]

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

If you had linked to an actual article about this kind of, I'd take you seriously, but since you linked to a cartoon...

A topless man like Hawkeye makes an impression of strength.

I'd say that both Hector and Dart's OA give an impression of strength, but neither of them are topless.

Tharja does not.

Since when are magic users ever portrayed as "strong"?

Edited April 11, 2015 by NinjaMonkey

[Saladus]

You're the poster who tried to use Hawkeye. I pointed out that a man like Hawkeye running shirtless makes an impression of strength (or ferocity and savagery), while how Tharja dresses does not.

I don't rate Hawkeye's design highly either.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Saladus

[Irysa]

No his point was that a topless muscular man can be viewed as a sex object, but it is not often complained about, wheras comparatively scantily clad female characters are frequently complained about. There is most certainly a bias towards the amount of people in the FE community who don't see Hawkeye as sexually attractive, but his point is still a reasonable one, and you attempted to dismiss it with the "male power fantasy" argument in a strawman webcomic.

As I've said, this argument marginalises smaller segments of communities or societies, beacuse it is inherantly a very subjective viewpoint from a school of thought that attempts to frame almost everything from a patriarchal standpoint. It can't be used as a way to debunk his observation.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Irysa

[goodperson707]

^^ Actually the Tharja design does give an impression of magical strength to me, though the cloak design and the goldish colour have a bit more to do with it than the fanservice. But i think the point on hawkeye is that there are male characters who radiate strength who are not shirtless.

Edited April 11, 2015 by goodperson707

[Dark Sage]

To be honest, some of the cheesy fanservice designs do clash with the concept of the class and that should change. It's not that showing leg is necessarily BAD or demeaning to women persay but if it's on a class like a pegasus knight or a wyvern rider or paladin or whatever, than it is rather inappropriate and should be changed because it's at odds with both how they function and with the rest of the design. In some of these cases, the female design should really just be the same as the male's.

Conversely, when lighter and/or sexier attire can fit, there's not much problem being used, whether for male or female. For example, barbarians going shirtless or thieves wearing light clothing and/or shorts fits. Female mages would probably have the most room for a sexy design, such as this. Note that in the image, the witch is able to carry what she needs and while she has some sex appeal, is still dressed in a way to be able to move without restriction (indeed in the game this image is from, the witch was able to move noticeably better than the more heavily robed male wizard). In short, there's some practicality and sex appeal and is overall a good design that fits with the concept. This art of a female thief is also a good way to handle design too.

tl;dr, it's ok for women to show some leg or display some sex appeal as long as it fits with the concept and has some practicality to it. This also applies to male designs to, but they don't face this problem as much.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Black Frost

[Rewjeo]

Regarding Hawkeye: I never meant to say that no one could find Hawkeye's design sexy, I just meant that it's not obviously, universally sexy, like Camilla's boob dance. With Hawkeye it also plays into other aspects of his character, which of course we cannot say either way for sure for Camilla yet. I suppose technically, if she's written the right way, I could actually be totally fine with her design, even if I'm not a huge fan of her being used as fanservice in the trailer.

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF NATIVE AMAERICANS?! They wore almost nothing, and they did it willingly. Why did they do it? I'll tell you why: (a) range of motion, (b) traditional values, and © speed is it's own form of defense. REMEMBER RATH FROM FE7? WHY DON'T I SEE CRITICISMS OF HIS CHARACTER ART? I also fail to understand why you think I want every female to be like this? (I bolded the statement in your quote where you suggested this.) I never even implied that. I'm just saying, if there's a character or two who stand out for seductive reasons, who really cares? I don't want some soft-porno art, no one does. But I don't mind a few over-sexualized characters in a GAME. You have to realize that there are people like this in real life. People who are narcissistic and obsessed with their looks; who aren't necessarily good people, and who we seem to think "have it all wrong". But you know what? I think that those imperfections are much more interesting. I think that it creates a form of publicity for this game, and I think that who ever is investing their time in creating these designs has the right to do what he wants. If you don't like it, boycott it. Or be a good fan, and overlook what you don't like. But don't judge something without a proper reason.

Another reason to hate this fandom, amirite? Nah, but I'm glad to see someone sees eye to eye with me on this subject. And I totally agree with the point you bring up. I just don't get the frustration with any of this to be honest. I mean the game is about war, and the idea of sex and seduction is what's pissing people off. That's hilarious to me.

Firstly, please cool the caps and bold. It doesn't help this discussion in any way.

Now, onto your points: It's my understanding that Native Americans generally rode with pants? Based on a quick Google search. There is bareback riding (which means no saddle; different issue) to take into account, but frankly I'm not knowledgeable enough on the topic to say anything about that. I will point out that Native Americans have a number of reasons to not have worn armor that don't apply to FE. Firstly, they were up against guns largely, so armor was pretty useless. Perhaps more importantly, they lacked both a history and an effective means of producing armor.

Rath: Um, he wears pants? Like, he shows his elbows, fingertips, neck, and face. One of the most conservative designs in FE, really. http://serenesforest.net/wp-content/gallery/blazing-sword/path-of-radiance-gallery/ruth.png

I never meant to imply that you want every female like this. I simply meant that a large number of Awakening characters via reclass can bare their thighs to their logical detriment, and literally all of the art of the females from FEif so far (except maybe the Hoshido maid girl, can't tell) have them with bare thighs. And after that you are literally restating my point (or, well, arguing with the same point I was). Please point me to the part where I said sex is bad and no one in real life is concerned with being sexy. Because I did not. I explicitly said, in fact, that sex appeal on characters like Tharja doesn't bother me (at least, not necessarily). Yes, some people like being sexy. But Sully is not that person. Probably not 100% of women (and like 5% of men?) in FEif are that person. If they are, that's bad writing or a serious genre shift. On top of that, you can be sexy without baring your thighs and showing cleavage in battle.

If you actually feel that NM's post and your response to it apply to my argument, then you are either strawmanning or totally missing my point. Case in point: I just came back from a performance of Rocky Horror and participated in the Virgin stuff.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Rewjeo

[RJWalker]

Again, let me bring up Sonia and compare her with Camilla or Tharja. Both are designed to show off skin but the former has a sensible design as well as purpose to be dressing that way (she's supposed to be seducing Brendan and keep him in her control) but Tharja and Camilla'd designs are bizzare and nonsense.

You can be sexy and show off skin while still being sensible. Kozaki's designs all fail that mark.

Also, what the hell do Native Americans have to do with Rath? The Sacaens are based primarily on Mongols.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Sunwoo]

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF NATIVE AMAERICANS?! They wore almost nothing, and they did it willingly. Why did they do it? I'll tell you why: (a) range of motion, (b) traditional values, and © speed is it's own form of defense. REMEMBER RATH FROM FE7? WHY DON'T I SEE CRITICISMS OF HIS CHARACTER ART?

Does Rath look naked to you

[Thane]

People are a bunch of prudes who take offense at the slightest bit of skin or cleavage shown. What really grinds my gears is people who complain about characters like Tharja or Aversa being "over-sexualised", and yet these same people have no problem with the fact that Hawkeye is bare-chested, despite it being the male version of the exact same thing.

That's a silly argument, and I believe you know it. People here have not been offended because units show skin; we raise our eyebrows because women fight in questionably sexy armor in a medieval war game. I don't think you'll hear many complaints about Olivia's clothes because she's supposed to be a dancer that reinvigorates the troops, and for that reason the outfit makes some sense. However, when you've got the same armor for male and female archers but the female version makes room for cleavage, you can't help but wonder.

No one is expecting a 100% realistic portrayal of armor in a video game; we all know it's fantasy and we expect the impossible. However, as they say, you can make your audience believe the impossible, but not the improbable.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Thane

[Rekt no Ken]

None of the character designers have been "perfect" but I certainly enjoy Kozaki's designs. There's only so much you can do to spice up the typical medieval costumes we've seen over and over in the series - a challenge exacerbated further by the fact that there's so many characters within the game that all need to be easily distinguishable from one another. Kozaki brings something new, fun, and creative to the table. I highly recommend his artbooks (KYMG and KYMG 2) for anyone else who's a fan.

re: claims of over-sexualization, I would just like to point out that he didn't do it exclusively to females. Vaike was shirtless the whole game.

btw this is my first post after months of lurking without an account *throws confetti*

[Crysta]

Put Hawkeye or Vaike in thong armor and I'm sure you'll get plenty of complaints.

Namely from guys.

[Party Moth]

I also fail to understand why you think I want every female to be like this? (I bolded the statement in your quote where you suggested this.) I never even implied that. I'm just saying, if there's a character or two who stand out for seductive reasons, who really cares? I don't want some soft-porno art, no one does. But I don't mind a few over-sexualized characters in a GAME. You have to realize that there are people like this in real life. People who are narcissistic and obsessed with their looks; who aren't necessarily good people, and who we seem to think "have it all wrong". But you know what? I think that those imperfections are much more interesting. I think that it creates a form of publicity for this game, and I think that who ever is investing their time in creating these designs has the right to do what he wants. If you don't like it, boycott it. Or be a good fan, and overlook what you don't like. But don't judge something without a proper reason.

So... "It's just a game. Making money is more important than character/game integrity, and good fans don't criticize games they like"?

Wow. It's almost as if you don't want your favorite game series to improve upon themselves.

You never implied every female should be heavily sexual in design, but by your logic, why would you care otherwise? You're a good fan, so you should overlook all the tits and panties and just buy it Day 1 anyway.

[Irysa]

Put Hawkeye or Vaike in thong armor and I'm sure you'll get plenty of complaints.

Namely from guys.

If you reclass men to Berserkers in FE13 then it's pretty close to that honestly. Although it's more broadly comparable to like, the Falcoknight armor I guess, in that you're only going to briefly see glimpses of pants/underwear or whatever when the movement causes the cloth to blow up as opposed to it being a constant thing.