Soleil/M!Kamui's Supports are almost offensive

[Kirokan]

The whole "It's just a trope" argument is so stupid. Almost everything is a trope.

Plot doesn't make any sense? It's just a trope. Horrendously bad localization that is barely readable? it's just a trope. Game completely censored, who cares? that's a trope as well.

I think (in my case) it is just used to help explain why something may be such a way, but certainly not an excuse, yes.

I should note that Soleil isn't Class-S at all, because that would involve actually having a relationship. I think that one guy was thinking of 'Bait And Switch Lesbians' instead, which is a fair deal more accurate, but isn't particularly liked in Japan. It's popular with WRITERS but isn't actually a thing the LGBT community actually likes, since you know. They prefer the real thing.

Soleil is just terrible because every single thing about her is 'likes girls', even the two known S-rank supports she has with men are "I fell in love with you because I thought you were a cute girl/you were a cute girl for a moment."

This is true, going back to why I do not think she fits the Class S archetype to the extent it is usually presented.

Oh man, GG is going to have a ball with this one.

Like wow, verify your damn sources before you report on stuff ffs

If I were doing the joke I would have stopped the moment someone asked for a source so they could write an article on it : \ I feel bad for the guy, and people tell me I shouldn't because it's his fault, but I just can't help but feel xD...

EDIT: My post to clear up confusion is the featured comment on Destructroid at the moment, so hope it helps...

Edited July 2, 2015 by Kirokan

[Iron Griffin]

Folks are really blowing this out of proportion now. Its a badly written support for a one note character and it will most likely get patched up when it reaches the states. There is no need for this much drama I can't believe it has spread all over the web like noisy flies on crap. >_>

[Othin]

If there's any crime IS should be blamed for in relation to this is their impotence in terms of developing a good story. It seems they've run out of decent ideas since quite a long time ago.

While I do think there's a bit more than that, it's pretty appalling that they made a story this weak even when claiming they specifically hired this special person to make it so great, and advertising it as such.

[L'arachel]

Well, I for one am disappointed

[NoNameAtAll]

While I do think there's a bit more than that, it's pretty appalling that they made a story this weak even when claiming they specifically hired this special person to make it so great, and advertising it as such.

Who said the guy wrote the supports? For all we know, he just wrote the main story.

Weak supports are a whooooole different issue.

[eclipse]

I never really picked up on the connotations of the drug-slipping, and while it is pretty bad I don't think it's as awful as some make it out to be. I was honestly more bothered by the bad fanfiction-level ridiculousness of that magic powder than the way he gave it to her.

It's just how Soleil is handled as a character that bothers me. In her supports with Foleo she says that women are preferable as romance partners but men are ok, which is fair enough. I have no issue believing that shes a bisexual person who greatly prefers women. But when she has 7+ S supports with male characters and 0 with females that's going to be an issue, or at the very least difficult to write. It could still work, if the supports were well-written, but you get stuff like "I've loved you since I saw you as a girl" or her talking endlessly about how much she likes girls and how ugly the men in the army are only to start going out with a guy at the drop of a hat.

The reason it's so stupid is how easy it would have been to avoid all this. I get that they wanted her to be a parallel of Inigo, and if they are desperate to let the Avatar romance all characters and have all opposite gender units of the same generation S rank each other then fair enough. But if you're going to do that then don't make a character who revolves entirely around how much they like other girls and vastly prefer them over men. They could have just made Soleil boy obsessed instead and her character would stay roughly the same while having support options that actually make sense.

Also, I'm starting to wonder if this thread was a good idea or not. I mean the support is pretty awful, but I don't think it warrants this much attention.

Now you know what would've made a better thread.

Think twice, and post once.

This is getting out control fast...

Is there anything we can to stop it, before it can cause some real damage?

Stop it? Why would I want to do that?

Any "news site" that's willing to take the word of some fans who source a tumblr (which is user-driven and not verified) can freely advertise that they write articles based on such sources. I, in turn, will make sure to never take their news seriously (or visit their site).

In which case, is anyone interested in compiling the sites that have run this story so far?

It's almost as if the people writing these articles have BBM-level reading skills. Or are going for sensationalism.

influx of mafia newbies in 3. . .

Ill-researched sensationalism is what I'd expect out of a celebrity rag, not a news site about gaming.

tbh that article doesn't seem that bad; the title's just very clickbaity. Like, it acknowledges that it's a case of cultural dissonance.

Screw clickbait. I wish it was a warnable offense here on SF.

EDIT:

Oh hey, I know her. She lurks these forums.

I think she was trolling... and rolling with it. That was the impression I got when I posted on that tweet about the misinformation, pointing out people are going to take the sly pun very wrongly.

I think if anyone took a look at her other posts, it would have been obvious. But as far as I know on Twitter not many people look. xD...

Ooh, she does?

Anyway, the line between trolling and srs is really thin, and usually requires knowing the person in question. Given the number of sites that have run this story, how many of them will actually look at her other tweets?

Lol at the ignorance and people being offended.

There's literally no date rape or ulterior motives on Kamui's part.

He's trying to help her talk to women with the potion.

Sure, he did it without her knowing. But it looks like Soleil appreciated his help.

Think Felix Felicis in Harry Potter. Harry made it seem as though he put it in Ron's drink even though he didn't, and he drank it anyways. To give him a placebo effect to aid him in his Quidditch match. What Ron didn't know was that Harry didn't actually put any of the "Liquid Luck" into his drink.

Granted, this was kind of consensual, but my point is that both Kamui and Harry did similar things, with both having good intent in helping their friend. Kamui slipped something in Soleil's drink to help her talk to girls. Harry acted as though he did to help Ron with Quidditch. Same motive: Wanting to help their friend.

The only bad part is that Kamui did it without her knowing. But it's not like it hurt her or anything. So, he should let her know prior to giving it to her, and that's on him. But, at least he WAS trying to help.

He just fell in love with her at the end, and so did she. Well, maybe she was more infatuated. And bisexual. But that's not the point.

This really shouldn't be a problem.

Huge difference.

Saying "I put something in your drink" and not putting anything in it probably won't harm the person. Unless you claimed to put something that killed lactose in milk, and didn't (that's scummy).

Saying "I didn't put something in your drink" and doing so leads to a world of problems. You can claim you put soy sauce in my dinner, without doing so, to see how I react. Chances are, I'll have a slightly upset stomach (due to nervousness), but otherwise be fine. If you slip soy sauce in my food, I'll end up being very sick. It's not something most people have to worry about, but shit like this has happened IRL, and I don't want to encourage it. Likewise, I don't expect most people reading this to truly understand how hellish it is to have such severe food sensitivities, but I'm damn well gonna try.

Besides, messing with other people's food shows a distinct lack of respect for personal boundaries. If the writers wanted to show that side of Kamui, why not have him borrow her stuff without asking?

It doesn't matter what Kamui put in her drink. What matters is that he did.

EDIT: I'm completely and utterly disappointed by the number of tickets regarding what TC should've done with the topic. DO NOT MAKE CALLS FOR SUCH THINGS IN-THREAD. The Report button exists for more than calling out stuff that breaks the rules - it grabs the attention of every moderator on the site, so if a thread needs to have its title changed/go to another subforum, it can be used for that. DO NOT ABUSE THE REPORT BUTTON!

Edited July 2, 2015 by eclipse

[Aiddon]

Folks are really blowing this out of proportion now. Its a badly written support for a one note character and it will most likely get patched up when it reaches the states. There is no need for this much drama I can't believe it has spread all over the web like noisy flies on crap. >_>

It's summer and people are bored, especially gaming websites which need something to talk about due to E3 sucking all the news out of the world, so they have to jump on a wonky support convo, blow it up, pretend they care about "sexual conversion" for five minutes and then go back to showering praise on homophobic, racist, sexist tripe. It's why I can't take journalists seriously when it comes to legitimate issues like homosexuality, sexism, racism, or sexual relationships in gaming; they're just way too selective in what they pick as a punching. And of course they do it to Nintendo with impunity because they know Iwata and the execs as a whole are too classy to do anything like pull advertising or not give review copies. There's no bravery in throwing punches at a guy they know won't fight back.

[Nerem]

This is true, going back to why I do not think she fits the Class S archetype to the extent it is usually presented.

I should clarify that I forgot to add "everything about her character is 'she likes girls'" and yet she doesn't have a single S-rank support with any girl. Which is pretty fucked up and is definitely Bait And Switch Lesbians.

[Othin]

Who said the guy wrote the supports? For all we know, he just wrote the main story.

Weak supports are a whooooole different issue.

I was talking about the main story, not the supports. But you can't just separate them, either, because the supports are an extension of the characters and setting developed in the main story, and both of them are part of the game's overall story. Even if they assigned different people to write the supports, it's a problem that they'd give the job to people this incompetent, especially when they apparently care so much about the game's story.

[Jackolantern282]

Huge difference.

Saying "I put something in your drink" and not putting anything in it probably won't harm the person. Unless you claimed to put something that killed lactose in milk, and didn't (that's scummy).

Saying "I didn't put something in your drink" and doing so leads to a world of problems. You can claim you put soy sauce in my dinner, without doing so, to see how I react. Chances are, I'll have a slightly upset stomach (due to nervousness), but otherwise be fine. If you slip soy sauce in my food, I'll end up being very sick. It's not something most people have to worry about, but shit like this has happened IRL, and I don't want to encourage it. Likewise, I don't expect most people reading this to truly understand how hellish it is to have such severe food sensitivities, but I'm damn well gonna try.

Besides, messing with other people's food shows a distinct lack of respect for personal boundaries. If the writers wanted to show that side of Kamui, why not have him borrow her stuff without asking?

It doesn't matter what Kamui put in her drink. What matters is that he did.

Another point that I failed to mention is that they were putting magic in there to aid them. Not food that could potentially poison them.

Neither the potion nor the Felix Felicitis (or the lack thereof) inherently harmed the recipient. On the other hand, some food can, like you said. And drugs. But see there's the difference there.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[eclipse]

The point is that they were putting magic in there to aid them. Not food that could potentially poison them.

Neither the potion nor the Felix Felicitis inherently harmed the recipient. On the other hand, some food can, like you said. And drugs. But see there's the difference there.

No matter what the intent, putting stuff in other people's food, even if it does no harm at the end of the day, shows a distinct lack of personal respect (even if Kamui somehow did enough research to guarantee that Soliel wouldn't react badly to the powder, or a combination of that powder and that drink).

The real-life consequence is that some people will end up sick/dead because of it. Unfortunately, THAT goes over heads, too.

[Jackolantern282]

No matter what the intent, putting stuff in other people's food, even if it does no harm at the end of the day, shows a distinct lack of personal respect (even if Kamui somehow did enough research to guarantee that Soliel wouldn't react badly to the powder, or a combination of that powder and that drink).

The real-life consequence is that some people will end up sick/dead because of it. Unfortunately, THAT goes over heads, too.

Yes, and while Kamui was smart about it, of course it's disrespect on his part. And that's really only the bad part of the conversation.

Now, what do you think of Harry, with his placebo? Do you think that was disrespect? I'm not quite sure. But it surely was consensual as Ron saw the potion and downed his drink anyways. I mean, I'd call that mutual consent without mutual understanding, with a good outcome in regards to the eventual Quidditch match.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[eclipse]

Yes, and while Kamui was smart about it, of course it's disrespect on his part. And that's really only the bad part of the conversation.

Now, what do you think of Harry, with his placebo? Do you think that was disrespect? I'm not quite sure. But it surely was consensual as Ron saw the potion and downed his drink anyways. I mean, I'd call that mutual consent without mutual understanding, with a good outcome in regards to the eventual Quidditch match.

The moral differences between Kamui and Harry are outside of the scope of this thread.

[Water Mage]

First let me apologize for asking to asking to delete this thread without using the ticket, I overeacted and totally forgot about it.

Back on topic:

I've been thinking, the problem with the support is the fact that a nice person like Corrin, would resort to "drugging" Soleil's drink, without her consent.

Maybe if character with a more dubious nature, like Syalla did the "drugging" instead of Corrin, it would't be as weird, I mean it's still something wrong, but I would seem like something that she would do.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Water Mage

[Jackolantern282]

The moral differences between Kamui and Harry are outside of the scope of this thread.

Are they though? So you're just going to avoid discussion? I mean there are similarities and differences between the two but why say it's outside the scope when it is within the scope and you can intelligently converse about it?

People are flipping out about this, when there have been many similar situations in other games, movies, etc. Some not arousing such discord as this.

I think it merits better discussion than dropping it like it's hot like that...

It's absolutely ludicrous how up in arms people are over this.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Haeresis]

1 - We see people giving drugs in games and movies to make some things much more worse than it and no one complain about it.

2 - Where is said it's a drug? Is more a interpretation... but whatever, maybe the localization team will change it to a Magic :)

3 - Plus we only saw a "script", we have no idea of how it happened either. I believe all this scene was going to sound fun and not dramastic how is everyone is saying.

4 - It's not real life, stop thinking how it would impact in our world.

5 - Just my opinion :D

I think... next time IS instead make 2 games, just make a single game called Fire Emblem Censored and Uncensored. Is the best way to avoid all this QQ and everyone will be happy lol

Edited July 2, 2015 by Haeresis

[eclipse]

Are they though? So you're just going to avoid discussion? I mean there are similarities and differences between the two but why say it's outside the scope when it is within the scope and you can intelligently converse about it?

People are flipping out about this, when there have been many similar situations in other games, movies, etc. Some not arousing such discord as this.

I think it merits better discussion than dropping it like it's hot like that...

It's called "not derailing the thread". It's also a mod request. In other words, either continue this via PM or drop it. I don't care which one you do.

[Jackolantern282]

It's called "not derailing the thread". It's also a mod request. In other words, either continue this via PM or drop it. I don't care which one you do.

What I'm really doing is comparing one related thing to the topic in this thread.

Not derailing. Hm. I'm a little disappointed.

Eh, whatever. I made my points. See it as you wish to see it, I don't really care...

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Sky Soldier]

The best way that this conversation makes sense to me is that it is just another example of Kamui being a naive and sheltered (yet loveable) moron. That's the only way this makes sense as he immediately apologizes and explains why he did it once Soleil starts freaking out about seeing cute girls all over the place.

Again, this will come out in the wash during localization, especially now that attention has been drawn to it. The lack of consent is the issue here, and that is easily fixable. Hopefully, if anything, it will mean that the localizers will take the opportunity to make her a character with better writing and more depth.

EDIT

I'd also like to say that the attention this is getting, in retrospect, shouldn't be surprising. Ever since Gamergate, there's been a somewhat obivous push to look at the relationship between video games and women. This just ended up in the crosshairs of that battle, whether it was warranted or not.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Sky Soldier

[Jackolantern282]

The best way that this conversation makes sense to me is that it is just another example of Kamui being a naive and sheltered (yet loveable) moron. That's the only way this makes sense as he immediately apologizes and explains why he did it once Soleil starts freaking out about seeing cute girls all over the place.

Again, this will come out in the wash during localization, especially now that attention has been drawn to it. The lack of consent is the issue here, and that is easily fixable. Hopefully, if anything, it will mean that the localizers will take the opportunity to make her a character with better writing and more depth.

This also makes sense. He's sheltered, he definitely lacks knowledge and awareness in certain areas, and perhaps this is a good reflection of that.

In this light, it's more about that, moreso than a character flaw. I mean, it's likely both to a certain degree. But this sheds a new light on this conversation!

Personally don't mind if this changes or not during localization.

I'd also like to say that the attention this is getting, in retrospect, shouldn't be surprising. Ever since Gamergate, there's been a somewhat obivous push to look at the relationship between video games and women. This just ended up in the crosshairs of that battle, whether it was warranted or not.

Yeah, I think you make a good point. It's certainly not surprising. It's just stupid, that's all.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[BrightBow]

If this scene was meant to show how socially inept Kamui is, Soleil would have been allowed to actually react to this revelation. Instead, the script just moves on as if nothing happened..

[Jackolantern282]

If this scene was meant to show how socially inept Kamui is, Soleil would have been allowed to actually react to this revelation. Instead, the script just moves on as if nothing happened..

Elaborate, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

[BrightBow]

Elaborate, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

If Kamui was meant to overstep any boundaries here, his environment (in this case Solei) would have reacted to it accordingly.

But those are her next two lines:

Soleil: H-Huh!? So I can see you as a girl!!?

...

Soleil: E-Ehhhh!? I-I’m glad you feel that way but… I have a very specific type… and besides, I mean, you’re Kamui…

This is not the reaction of someone who just found out that someone abused their trust and drugged them, to say the least. She does not react to this at all and therefore this clearly wasn't intended to be the result of a character flaw on Kamui's part. The script simply doesn't care about the lack consent and expects us to just ignore it.

Edited July 2, 2015 by BrightBow

[Jackolantern282]

If Kamui was meant to overstep any boundaries here, his environment (in this case Solei) would have reacted to it accordingly.

But those are her next two lines:

Soleil: H-Huh!? So I can see you as a girl!!?

...

Soleil: E-Ehhhh!? I-I’m glad you feel that way but… I have a very specific type… and besides, I mean, you’re Kamui…

This is not the reaction of someone who just found out that someone abused their trust and drugged them, to say the least. She does not react to this at all and therefore this clearly wasn't intended to be the result of a character flaw on Kamui's part. The script simply doesn't care about the lack consent and expects us to just ignore it.

Or maybe she's kinda okay with it, and perhaps that is a character flaw on Soleil's part...

What a muddy sitch, don't really know what to think.

EDIT:

Just to clarify to everyone: the real point of contention is Kamui (with well intentions) dropping the potion in her drink without her knowing. It has nothing to do with homophobia, "curing" her of her sexuality, nefarious motives, etc.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jackolantern282

[Esme]

I think all of you should read this-- https://archive.is/qINBl

This article will clear up a lot of confusion concerning the controversy over this support convo and Soleil's character in general.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Esme