General US Politics

[Tolvir]

You just proved their point with this post, Ana.

You're essentially saying no one understands you and so no one can criticize you.

If someone who also has your disorder can't criticize you, who can?

If that's your mindset then you really shouldn't be here in this subforum.

Dude, stop. It's done, she admitted she was wrong. Now you are overstepping and being a dick.

Seriously, this thread needs to be deleted. It is serving nothing other than just dividing us, so it needs to end. How do you go about doing that?

[shadowofchaos]

What he said was just criticism.

You outright said "wrong".

"It's different for me, so you can't say that I can change myself" is your implication.

It's an excuse.

Dude, stop. It's done, she admitted she was wrong. Now you are overstepping and being a dick.

I have no ill intent.

My point is that criticism in this thread is the very nature of this forum.

Such as your criticism of me there.

Bringing up Asperegers to say "I was hurt, so that's why I was being stubborn" is a reason, but not a way out.

I will say calling me a dick for calmly pointing out the flaw in logic is pretty uncalled for.

Edit: Will stop because Bal said so in the following post.

Edited November 11, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Balcerzak]

Seriously, stop the tangents.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

@ShadowofChaos + Anacybele

There's also the way of PMing each other instead of blowing up these personal quarrels in this thread.

I can understand your points, but there are better places to come to an agreement than to do it in a public thread multiple hundred people are following.

(you already saw the reaction of a few people here)

Edited November 11, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[Anacybele]

You're right, but I don't want to continue it, even through PM. I just want it to be over and for us to all move on with our lives.

[Acacia Sgt]

So changing the topic, I find it interesting that the Popular Vote gap has pretty much doubled since Trump won.

If I remember correctly, the difference back then was only of about 200K votes, but now it sits at around 450K. In my opinion it makes quite the contrast to the Electoral Vote, the fact that gap is widening, if only slightly.

[Phoenix Wright]

Maybe so, but have you ever been so sure of something that you just can't possibly be wrong, only to have someone suddenly debunk this later? It kind of hurts, honestly. I mean, you were so positive you were right! Only to find out you weren't. What a big disappointment.

it's not a disappointment, it's a beautiful thing! it is a point of growth and learning. everyone should challenge their beliefs and strive to find ways that make them wrong.

political beliefs make this hard. i will admit that on social issues i am mostly rigid (i don't think same-sex marriage is a states' rights issue, for example). but economically, i am not so rough around the edges. i believe in social safety nets and socialist measures. i believe that a progressive tax is the way to go. but it's very hard to argue against a "balanced budget." it's hard to argue why refugees should receive our care, and why we shouldn't deport undocumented immigrants, but make it easier for them to come here legally. there are valid points to both sides. when it comes to politics, i suppose it's most subtle because it's all about arguing what's most valid, not necessarily what's correct and what's incorrect.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Anacybele]

it's not a disappointment, it's a beautiful thing! it is a point of growth and learning. everyone should challenge their beliefs and strive to find ways that make them wrong.

political beliefs make this hard. i will admit that on social issues i am mostly rigid (i don't think same-sex marriage is a states' rights issue, for example). but economically, i am not so rough around the edges. i believe in social safety nets and socialist measures. i believe that a progressive tax is the way to go. but it's very hard to argue against a "balanced budget." it's hard to argue why refugees should receive our care, and why we shouldn't deport undocumented immigrants, but make it easier for them to come here legally. there are valid points to both sides. when it comes to politics, i suppose it's most subtle because it's all about arguing what's most valid.

Hm... I suppose. I'll try to keep your post in mind here. I think you do make a lot of sense, Phoenix. Yeah, politics also just seems like a pretty sensitive subject that can get heated easily. I learned this the hard way, pretty much...

[shadowofchaos]

@ShadowofChaos + Anacybele

There's also the way of PMing each other instead of blowing up these personal quarrels in this thread.

I can understand your points, but there are better places to come to an agreement than to do it in a public thread multiple hundred people are following.

(you already saw the reaction of a few people here)

Those weren't personal quarrels especially since the original thing she was responding to was a person who also has the disorder. If anything I was just a third party observer saying that criticism like that isn't easily dismissed.

Moving on, the subject was that out of principle those saying Trump should show his birth certificate aren't out of line.

My take on that is that while it is pointless, it shows that there are a lot of assumptions people make on other Americans when it comes to their looks and names and when involving the presidency.

So changing the topic, I find it interesting that the Popular Vote gap has pretty much doubled since Trump won.

If I remember correctly, the difference back then was only of about 200K votes, but now it sits at around 450K. In my opinion it makes quite the contrast to the Electoral Vote, the fact that gap is widening, if only slightly.

What are the stats right now on absentee ballots?

Edited November 11, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Moblin Major General]

Moving on, the subject was that out of principle those saying Trump should show his birth certificate aren't out of line.

What does that have to do with anything, though? Unlike with Obama (even though it was certainly proven false), he clearly was natural born. As a matter of prinicple, sure, but there is irrefutable proof Trump was born here, meaning him showing it is ultimately fruitless to any agenda, even that of his supporters.

[Augestein]

it's not a disappointment, it's a beautiful thing! it is a point of growth and learning. everyone should challenge their beliefs and strive to find ways that make them wrong.

"Listen like you are wrong. Argue like you are right." I think that's what can be taken from here. Listen to their words as if you could be wrong, and argue as though you truly believe that what you are saying is correct.

What does that have to do with anything, though? Unlike with Obama (even though it was certainly proven false), he clearly was natural born. As a matter of prinicple, sure, but there is irrefutable proof Trump was born here, meaning him showing it is ultimately fruitless to any agenda, even that of his supporters.

Because by him not having to show it, it actually showcases a different set of rules based on ... Something. Something that apparently no other president ever had to do that Obama did.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Augestein

[shadowofchaos]

What does that have to do with anything, though? Unlike with Obama (even though it was certainly proven false), he clearly was natural born. As a matter of prinicple, sure, but there is irrefutable proof Trump was born here, meaning him showing it is ultimately fruitless to any agenda, even that of his supporters.

Augestein said it for me.

Fruitless, but out of principle of having the same rules for each president after Obama.

Because apparently, if you're not a white male, and your name sounds unamerican you *HAVE* to show your birth certificate. And even then, they questioned that document's legitimacy.

Loyalty to the country isn't based on your name sounding American. And regardless of political affiliation, implying so for the President because of his name that they are actually an agent of the enemies of the United States is insulting. The fact that he had to give in means that it should be a standard question, regardless of assumptions to every president hereafter.

Edited November 11, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Lord Raven]

Besides, John McCain, the guy Obama ran against in 2008, was actually not born in America

Come on, people

[Water Mage]

Speaking of being born outside of the US, isn't Trump's wife currently under suspicion of being an illegal immigrant?

[Acacia Sgt]

Besides, John McCain, the guy Obama ran against in 2008, was actually not born in America

Come on, people

I think that subject was brought up back then.

On the other hand, he was born in the Panama Canal Zone, considered unincorporated US territory. And this thing, retroactively made him citizen if there was any doubt. Even then, his own father as a citizen would make him a citizen as well regardless of where he was born. Then again, the "at least one parent is a citizen" thing is the most often controversial part of the Natural-Born Clause whenever its brought up, I think.

[Res]

Speaking of being born outside of the US, isn't Trump's wife currently under suspicion of being an illegal immigrant?

No, and she is a legal immigrant. The controversy is that she possibly worked in the U.S. before legally being able to do so:

In November 2016, the Associated Press reported that Trump was paid $20,056 for 10 modeling jobs in the United States in 1996 before she had legal permission to work in the country. In response, Trump's lawyer stated the documents on which AP relied "have not been verified, and do not reflect our records including corresponding passport stamps."

Edited November 11, 2016 by Res

[Water Mage]

No, and she is a legal immigrant. The controversy is that she possibly worked in the U.S. before legally being able to do so: In November 2016, the Associated Press reported that Trump was paid $20,056 for 10 modeling jobs in the United States in 1996 before she had legal permission to work in the country. In response, Trump's lawyer stated the documents on which AP relied "have not been verified, and do not reflect our records including corresponding passport stamps."

Ah, I see.

The explanation was more simple than I thought. Looks like it's a different issue I suppose.

[Phoenix Wright]

the world becomes a little more connected to each other socio-economically every day.

do we really actually give a shit if our president was born in the united states? i sure as hell don't. if the person is fit to lead they're fit to lead.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah and also the "Obama is a Muslim" narrative was dumb as shit. I honestly don't know why people care so much aside from prejudice. The "born in the US" requirement is so archaic especially when we consider the technicalities.

Now, I only brought up McCain because Obama's birther detractors largely ignored that. I'm aware of the technicalities behind Cruz and McCain, but if you want to prove your shitflinging is unbiased and not almost racially motivated then you should at least be fair about it.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Augestein]

the world becomes a little more connected to each other socio-economically every day.

do we really actually give a shit if our president was born in the united states? i sure as hell don't. if the person is fit to lead they're fit to lead.

I think the reason for that is that they don't want the idea of someone being raised in a foreign country to let their love of another country make them have clouded judgment towards the country they were born towards. Or even the possibility of a sleeper agent child being raised with the sole purpose of becoming President. It's kind of silly, but I can see where the logic comes from.

[Phoenix Wright]

I think the reason for that is that they don't want the idea of someone being raised in a foreign country to let their love of another country make them have clouded judgment towards the country they were born towards. Or even the possibility of a sleeper agent child being raised with the sole purpose of becoming President. It's kind of silly, but I can see where the logic comes from.

with the first point, i see that. of course, i don't have the data to back this up, but i think you'd find that immigrants who want to be leaders for the united states love the united states. arnold s. is a very good example.

the other fear is just silly (as you said). i'm sure there's examples of that at some point throughout history, but that is very, very unlikely to happen. politics is too chaotic to be able to raise someone with the sole purpose of becoming powerful politically in another country.

Now, I only brought up McCain because Obama's birther detractors largely ignored that. I'm aware of the technicalities behind Cruz and McCain, but if you want to prove your shitflinging is unbiased and not almost racially motivated then you should at least be fair about it.

this is fair.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[eclipse]

It seems to me that you have more of a problem with democracy itself than the electoral college. You're basically saying that the individual person's vote is inconsequential to the majority.

​If that's not your point, feel free to correct me.

Hey I'm gonna butt in randomly!

After a certain tipping point, a presidential vote becomes meaningless. A candidate wins with 50%+1, so having 90% of the people voting for the same person won't impact the state's electoral votes any more than 55% of the populace voting for the same person. For some, it means that it feels like their voices won't be heard. For me, it means that I can vote for who I want, and anyone that says I'm throwing away my vote can chew on the numbers. In my case, it meant a third party, in the hopes that others reached the same conclusion as me, and would vote similarly, as a way to break the two-party deadlock. Unfortunately, it was less than 7% of the Hawaii voters, but it's still better than nothing.

The pros to having a pure popular vote is that everyone's voice is roughly equal. The cons is that the less densely-populated places will get shouted down by the heavily populated ones. While I think the electoral college has its flaws, I'm not going to complain about it, because I'm in one of those places that's in danger of being drowned out if it turns into a pure popular vote.

I'm no American. But how bad of a candidate do you have to be to lose to Trump?

1. Do a lot of questionably legal things. Yes, it's politics as usual, but people here were getting real tired of that shit.

2. Point out your opponent more than campaigning for yourself. Because the last thing your opponent needs is more attention.

3. Show your party's competence by getting your servers hacked by another country.

4. Decide what kind of person will vote for you, and only cater to them. If they don't fit the mold, fuck 'em.

5. Fail to understand the effect of emotion on a population that is already unhappy (as if the recent police/race issues weren't already a giant symptom of that).

It was a lot of factors coming together, but here's a few of them.

What issues are you worried about? What issues do you want to see resolved? What are the issues at stake that are closest to your heart, that you see as the most dire, the most in need of expedient and decisive addressing?

Mine is the disparity between the development of technology and the laws used to govern their use. Right now, there's a lot of questionable usage of data (like this). I feel that government should do more to protect the privacy of its citizens, and ensure that companies that create/store data do the same. I'd also like more regulation when it comes to the shoddy security on IoT devices, since this thing is on the loose because of that.

This is already long enough. If there's no new posts by the time I finish with the next nine pages, I'll edit this.

[UNLEASH IT]

This might be a bit late but to Life, tuvarkz and the other people who supported Trump, either openly or non-openly, congratulations. I may not agree with the views you have but to stand by your beliefs despite the majority of the people on this site being against you (along with the almost constant stream of ridicule and condemnation from mainstream media directed at you) is admirable, and you deserve credit for that.

[Phoenix Wright]

it is not admirable, it's normal lol

[Eail]

This might be a bit late but to Life, tuvarkz and the other people who supported Trump, either openly or non-openly, congratulations. I may not agree with the views you have but to stand by your beliefs despite the majority of the people on this site being against you (along with the almost constant stream of ridicule and condemnation from mainstream media directed at you) is admirable, and you deserve credit for that.

If there's one thing we on the Right are good at, it's keeping our beliefs close to the heart an not backing down when they're threatened or spoken of in a poor light.