General US Politics

[Time the Crestfallen]

My issue is more with how much more vocal people will become. It's more of an issue when you can say and do certain things, because the commander-in-chief may agree. It goes beyond just saying "mean things," because there are things like this and this that are just horrifying.

<snip>

I think you're reading a bit to much into what I'm saying. The only thing I was saying was that at least the majority of Americans, even if it's only a slim majority, don't support Trump and his views. The moral victory, as it were.

Obviously bigots are going to be emboldened, it's going to be brexit all over again. But that's not what I was talking about. It was a simple observation that Hillary got the popular vote and a comment of 'I'll take what I can get', nothing more.

[shadowofchaos]

Regarding everything though, I think both sides should read this:

http://pastebin.com/WKP2cTyZ

Got it off a well know LPer's twitter:

https://twitter.com/SuperJeenius/status/796432343518982144?s=09

[Lord Raven]

I really just don't think a slim majority makes up for it, since it's still a significant part of the country.

I don't buy into all Trump supporters being inherently racist/sexist/-phobic just as I don't think Hillary supporters are a beacon of tolerance, either, so it's hard to really judge by the election.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

See, and things like that fake magazine quote are why Trump has lashed out at the media and is wanting a law that can get them to stop lying. They did lie about him a lot. He didn't make fun of a disabled reporter or any dumb shit like that for example, I saw a video that proves it. He actually used the same gesture to criticize non-disabled people, as the video shows. Someone just paused a clip of Trump doing said gesture and took it way out of context to make it look like he mocked disabled people. I'm not sure if I can dig the video up right now though, as my uncle had shown it on Facebook and it was weeks ago that he posted it. But it went into a pretty deep explanation of why the mocking disabled people thing was a big fat lie.

He's said some controversial things, but some people are offended too easily and like jumping to conclusions and this leads to people believing things that aren't true.

In fact, Trump is a big supporter of helping disabled people. He used his own personal plane to fly a boy who needed medical care when no one else would help him get to where he needed to go. The video showed this too. I think this kid was an immigrant too, btw.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Anacybele

[Time the Crestfallen]

I really just don't think a slim majority makes up for it, since it's still a significant part of the country.

I don't buy into all Trump supporters being inherently racist/sexist/-phobic just as I don't think Hillary supporters are a beacon of tolerance, either, so it's hard to really judge by the election.

Eh, fair enough. This election and our recent one has ruined politics for me.

[Lord Raven]

If nothing else, this means that this may get more footing in the future.

To put things into perspective, the governor of my home state (Larry Hogan) is a Republican that absolutely denounces Trump to the extent where he wrote in his father. It ultimately didn't matter - Maryland isn't going Red for a long ass time - but I think even conservative Governors won't want shit like this to happen again.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

Well, glad you get a Republican governer, Lord Raven. We DID have one here in NC (Pat McCrory), but he lost to Roy Cooper (who I make fun of by calling him Roy Koopa heh heh), a Democrat. McCrory was fully against Obama and Obamacare and such, I liked that. At least Trump got this state in the election.

[Punished Dayni]

See, and things like that fake magazine quote are why Trump has lashed out at the media and is wanting a law that can get them to stop lying. They did lie about him a lot.

I hear that and I instantly flinch. Not because of calling out people who have at best severely misrepresented news to form agendas, that's understandable.

You see, it echos of a big businessman over here who has gained a large percentage of media (and I'm talking across print, radio and tv here) here who has used that and threats of suits to stifle discussion of things going in in relation to his businesses and possible government bias in his favour. And that leads to me thinking that sort of law could be used for to hide the truth and manipulate what's discussed. Thankfully this hasn't worked out in his favour, and actions have been called out, but for a long time his media would avoid covering it, and other outlets also would for reasons of wanting to avoid a suit.

Really, it's not because of Trump that that kind of law would frighten me (though honestly kind of, I'm not exactly pro-Trump myself). It's because of other people who'd cover up other things. Especially those who have a media empire who'd use that to hide what they please.

[Crysta]

don't be glad because your governor is a republican

be glad that he's a decent person

EDIT: trump will be more friendly to acquire status and because he has a strong compulsion to be liked (in the short term anyway), but it will be self-serving. that's why he always raved about polls when they supported him...and when they showed he was down.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Crysta

[Lord Raven]

Well, glad you get a Republican governer, Lord Raven. We DID have one here in NC (Pat McCrory), but he lost to Roy Cooper (who I make fun of by calling him Roy Koopa heh heh), a Democrat. McCrory was fully against Obama and Obamacare and such, I liked that. At least Trump got this state in the election.

He's a moderate so it's the silver linings. I am liberal, so I do not like having a Republican governor, but I guess Hogan is the best I can hope for ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Our previous governor was basically in "third place" behind Sanders in the democratic primaries, and it seems like he's developed a bit of a cult following. Which is nice.

[Anacybele]

I hear that and I instantly flinch. Not because of calling out people who have at best severely misrepresented news to form agendas, that's understandable.

You see, it echos of a big businessman over here who has gained a large percentage of media (and I'm talking across print, radio and tv here) here who has used that and threats of suits to stifle discussion of things going in in relation to his businesses and possible government bias in his favour. And that leads to me thinking that sort of law could be used for to hide the truth and manipulate what's discussed. Thankfully this hasn't worked out in his favour, and actions have been called out, but for a long time his media would avoid covering it, and other outlets also would for reasons of wanting to avoid a suit.

Really, it's not because of Trump that that kind of law would frighten me (though honestly kind of, I'm not exactly pro-Trump myself). It's because of other people who'd cover up other things. Especially those who have a media empire who'd use that to hide what they please.

Er...sorry, but I don't quite follow here. I'm confused at what you're trying to get at exactly.

don't be glad because your governor is a republican

be glad that he's a decent person

I would be glad of that too, but even if you're a decent person, it doesn't automatically mean you'd be a great governer or politician or anything. I consider myself a pretty decent person and I wouldn't really know jack shit about how to properly do that stuff. I can only voice the things I'd like to see these leaders do.

[Crysta]

being a republican doesn't make you a great governor by default, either

[Anacybele]

being a republican doesn't make you a great governor by default, either

Yes, but these days, I believe a Republican is more likely to do well than a Democrat.

[Lord Raven]

Er...sorry, but I don't quite follow here. I'm confused at what you're trying to get at exactly.

He's saying libel laws have the potential to allow the president to filter out information he doesn't like, and thereby ruin free speech/press. This is an extremely common criticism of wanting to expand libel laws.

Basically is Trump is setting where the line is draw, that is a major issue.

EDIT: Also the post is comparing Rupert Murdoch to Donald Trump.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Lord Raven

[eclipse]

Regarding everything though, I think both sides should read this:

http://pastebin.com/WKP2cTyZ

Got it off a well know LPer's twitter:

https://twitter.com/SuperJeenius/status/796432343518982144?s=09

Well. . .it's a nice sentiment, but. . .

Trump will still have to go through the House and the Senate to enact laws and policies, and even though Republicans do have a majority in both, remind them that many Republicans don't like him because of the inflammatory things he says - and would never vote for something that takes rights away from or oppresses Americans.

Has it been so long that we've forgotten about the Patriot Act?

[ping]

It's basically a tried and tested method for autocrats all over the world to systematically destroy any kind of free press. Just imprison anyone who criticizes you - problem solved. You can look what's going on in Turkey right now if you want an example.

€: answer to this:

Er...sorry, but I don't quite follow here. I'm confused at what you're trying to get at exactly.

Edited November 9, 2016 by ping

[Res]

Regarding everything though, I think both sides should read this:

http://pastebin.com/WKP2cTyZ

Got it off a well know LPer's twitter:

https://twitter.com/SuperJeenius/status/796432343518982144?s=09

It's a nice post for people like me but doesn't really address the non-privileged.

I also liked this opinion piece, a good reminder for me. I should have been less surprised.

Pertinent quote:

Yet none of the irritated white women acknowledged anywhere in their exhaustion the rage and frustration that people of color and LGBT folk might be feeling because we’ve kinda wanted all those things — the life, the love, the vote — for hundreds of years and have been routinely denied them. Because of, like, the stereotypes. And the systemic, institutional oppression. And the culture of white supremacy and entitlement. And the microaggressions of the overwhelmingly privileged who had the nerve to express irritation this election cycle when many Americans have been terrified for their safety.

It’s all been a lot to swallow, particularly when those who have had the least at stake this year have posted condescending memes about how we shouldn’t even unfriend people on Facebook when they undermine our humanity because that’s the biggest threat to democracy. (But not redlining, gerrymandering, voter suppression laws, and the electoral college.)

Well, glad you get a Republican governer, Lord Raven.

When Lord Raven has said nothing to endorse the Republican party and has in fact spoken up against what they stand for, how is this not just gloating?

[Crysta]

I would have never guessed!

I'm counting on the centrist Republicans and Democrats to work together to curb his more asinine measures, but I expect some of them to sell their souls and capitalize on an opportunity they probably didn't even see coming. Opportunism will always be a staple of politics and in spite of what the forces which propelled Trump into the highest office of the land may think, he is not an entirely different creature than the weak limousine liberals they like to rail against.

[Anacybele]

He's saying libel laws have the potential to allow the president to filter out information he doesn't like, and thereby ruin free speech/press. This is an extremely common criticism of wanting to expand libel laws.

Basically is Trump is setting where the line is draw, that is a major issue.

EDIT: Also the post is comparing Rupert Murdoch to Donald Trump.

Oh, now I see. Well, there's got to be a balanced solution here somewhere, and we just have to hope Trump can find it.

EDIT: And SOC, that was a really good post you linked! I enjoyed reading that a lot.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

Balanced solution is what we've got. I don't see how you can expand them beyond what they are right now.

[Anacybele]

Balanced solution is what we've got. I don't see how you can expand them beyond what they are right now.

I don't know about that. I'm always getting told not to believe the media. And freedom of speech and the press is supposed to have some limits. Like, we can all agree that we definitely shouldn't be allowed to run into a crowded church and yell death threats and that Christians are hateful shitheads for example, right? I don't think putting false information in newspapers and on TV should be allowed either.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Anacybele

[Water Mage]

Well. . .it's a nice sentiment, but. . .Has it been so long that we've forgotten about the Patriot Act?

But I thought various provisions of this law expired in 2015.

Or are you talking about the USA Freedom Act which is slightly different?

[Res]

The media has been pretty much spouting lies and misinformation since its inception. There's no real way to stop it, and even the papers and websites that profess to more thoroughly vet their sources sometimes let things slip through. There's also lies by omission, too; quite often it's not what gets reported on, but what doesn't (see the whole No-DAPL situation).

This is why it's usually good to fact-check yourself as much as possible, and to read from a variety of sources.

[Punished Dayni]

Er...sorry, but I don't quite follow here. I'm confused at what you're trying to get at exactly.

A fear of people using libel laws (and not just politicians or the president) to manipulate discourse and hide facts.

And Lord Raven, while I would thinking of Murdoch as a large media mogul (not the one I was alluding to as using their clout to their advantage, that is someone from my country), I don't think that either would use said laws in the same way. I would be concerned about anyone abusing it and tbh I'd be more concerned about someone like Murdoch using said laws, though Trump is the one proposing such an extension.

[Lord Raven]

I don't know about that. I'm always getting told not to believe the media. And freedom of speech and the press is supposed to have some limits. Like, we can all agree that we definitely shouldn't be allowed to run into a crowded church and yell death threats and that Christians are hateful shitheads for example, right? I don't think putting false information in newspapers and on TV should be allowed either.

The reason you don't trust the mainstream media is because they misrepresent certain things, misreport other things, and cause hysteria. They are not always wrong, nor are they always right. However, the same applies to everything; you should not trust everything you read, you need to do at the very least baseline research to verify anything thrown at you, especially if it seems skeptical.

It should not be illegal for media outlets to lie; it should only be illegal to legitimately defame someone based on a lie. That's what libel laws do. I wasn't actually even defaming Trump when I posted that meme and nor was anyone else. And Trump was defaming a party and party system in that fake meme, not defaming a person. There's quite a bit of difference.

This is where the quote "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" by Wendell Philips comes in. In order to make sure there are no limits to freedom of speech, we must be vigilant. Death threats aren't really relevant to free speech, because it involves stripping others of rights too.

And Lord Raven, while I would thinking of Murdoch as a large media mogul (not the one I was alluding to as using their clout to their advantage, that is someone from my country), I don't think that either would use said laws in the same way. I would be concerned about anyone abusing it and tbh I'd be more concerned about someone like Murdoch using said laws, though Trump is the one proposing such an extension.

N/A isn't a country I've heard of. Do they speak English in N/A? /s

I actually assumed Australia because it really sounded like Murdoch, but now it's almost sounding like Saudi?

Edited November 9, 2016 by Lord Raven