Smash 4, Character Discussion Thread. #21 Metaknight

[Zera]

Those amiibos look like shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb3N01lm6P8

...a sword (that isn't quite as long as it used to be, omedeto Marthipan), and tippers....Of course, he'd need to be able to combo to truly be good...and I selfishly want his sword to be as long as it was in Melee.

I've heard a lot of people say that Marth's range was nerfed, but is that true? As someone who doesn't play Marth, I never noticed a range reduction. If anything, his sword looks even longer in Smash 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1epzAMv74k

[Jedi]

The lagless Brawl Marth makes me cringe seeing Smash 4 Marth in comparison. Man was dancing blade that fast in Brawl? Damn.

And man those throws that can actually combo...

Edited September 2, 2015 by Jedi

[Refa]

^Same, Jedi.

Yes, it's true. His blade's hitbox doesn't extend as far as the trail indicates. Besides, I specifically mentioned Melee Marth.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Refa

[Zerosabers]

I stopped maining Marth when SSB4 came out, he just felt too slow and weak. Now with all the buffs he keeps getting he's starting to feel a bit more like he used too and I've started playing him a lot more.

I like his sweet spot a little less than Roy's but it feels better when you hit somebody with it.

I really think Lucina should have been a faster Marth with less endlag on her moves to make up for her loss in killing potential. Why did they make her sword shorter anyways?

Hopefully they keep getting buffed, the last patch was a step in the right direction making them faster.

[Jedi]

I hope they get buffed more as well, including some nice Throw changes to make them able to combo with them.

All we can do at low % is like dthrow to a bair.

^Same, Jedi.

Yes, it's true. His blade's hitbox doesn't extend as far as the trail indicates. Besides, I specifically mentioned Melee Marth.

How funny would you find it, if in the next patch Sakurai made his blade as long as in Melee and gave him his old grab range back?

[euklyd]

<reserving post; will update tomorrow>

imo make a new post for this when you've finished actually writing your post and put your update there; I doubt that anyone is going to read back a page or two to check to see if you've updated your post

not sure what the point is to reserving posts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb3N01lm6P8

I've heard a lot of people say that Marth's range was nerfed, but is that true? As someone who doesn't play Marth, I never noticed a range reduction. If anything, his sword looks even longer in Smash 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1epzAMv74k

he has better disjoint but worse range

his sword is longer, but he doesn't move his feet and body nearly as much, if at all, when he swings

Edited September 3, 2015 by Euklyd

[Zera]

he has better disjoint but worse range

his sword is longer, but he doesn't move his feet and body nearly as much, if at all, when he swings

I'm not seein' it. His arm and leg movements seem to be the same, and even if they are different, wouldn't the increased disjoint make up for it?

[Elieson]

If having better disjoint matters, they wouldn't be bad PCs

[euklyd]

I'm not seein' it. His arm and leg movements seem to be the same, and even if they are different, wouldn't the increased disjoint make up for it?

in a word, "no"

If having better disjoint matters, they wouldn't be bad PCs

it matters, but not as much as having reasonable endlag/landing lag, which is Lucimarth's bigger problem

[Tamarsamar]

Lucina: the most pointless character slot in Smash, beating out even Dank Pit for the title. Her freaking theme is "You May Call Me Marth". And, at the end of the day, all she really is is a worse Marth. Sure, she has marginally better non-tip damage, but all Marth really needs is to land one good tipper for Lucina to fall behind. In short, why couldn't they just tie her to Marth's character slot? Like, if they can have Wireframe Mac . . .

Marth: Dude is going to try to space you out; if you're a real spacing character (or, infamously enough, even Sheik), you can do that better than him. Otherwise, rush into his face as fast as possible, grab him whenever viable, and be sure to properly punish any baited Counters. One of the more fundamental characters in Smash since Melee (and I have personally secondaried him ever since), he is the Reversi of character movesets: easy to learn, hard to master. Unfortunately, while he was just slightly too good even in Brawl, they overcorrected on him heavily in Smash 4.

How I see the Falchion matchup with my characters:

Yoshi: You are so much faster it's not even funny. Sure, your non-command grab sucks, but after you get your first read against an attempted Counter, the match goes downhill in your favor. Eggs eggs eggs.

Charizard: Flamethrower gives your opponent a bit of a hard time. Leverage your amazing grab game when they approach to your advantage. Similarly to Shulk, make sure you're safe from Counter before you commit to a slow power move, though there is a bit of leeway here since it doesn't hurt quite as much as Vision. Sliding Rock Smash can save you easily from a well-spaced Marth. Overall a fun matchup, as there is something inherently enjoyable about slaying a wanna-be slayer.

Robin: Time to tip the scales! Arcfire can catch Marth before he gets to a position he wants to be in (which, of course, goes double for Lucina), and you can follow up any number of ways once you do so. Your grab range might suck, but so does his, and you actually have combos off of your throws, so it is definitely worth going for in this matchup. If playing against Lucina, you can hope for a satisfying "How can you protect your father if you can't even protect yourself?" victory screen.

Mii Swordfighter: A common theme with a lot of your matchups is that you end up leaning a lot on your projectiles, and this one is no different, as Marth is actually dangerous you in a straight sword fight (Lucina, however, I'm not so sure). Those projectiles are actually very good at what they do here, though, and will be quite vexing for your opponent. Your Blade Counter also lasts longer than the original, so you have a bit of leeway in that department if your opponent gets overconfident from a near-miss. Barring a fortunate Blade Counter, the hardest part (at least against Marth) will be actually landing the KO, but when in doubt, just throw off of the stage. The matchup with Marth is perhaps roughly even here (particularly if he is able to land a good tipper or two).

BONUS: Since I do still secondary Marth, I can give some insight regarding what to expect from a Custom Marth (and, by extension, Lucina, since they didn't even bother making her customs any different, either). 3123 (Dashing Assault, Dancing Blade, Crescent Slash, Iai Counter) is generally regarded as the best custom Marth set, and the only deviations you should ever see from that (given the appropriate custom moves are unlocked) are people who like messing with the other neutral specials (Shield Breaker and Storm Thrust), and people (like myself) who can't be bothered to adjust to an up special so wildly different from Dolphin Slash. Iai Counter is nuts, and should never not be used whenever it is possible to do so. That ridiculous speed, damage multiplier, and movement, all in one move? It's no Power Vision, but when you can use it multiple times in succession (especially against projectile spammers) it doesn't need to be!

Edited September 3, 2015 by Tamarsamar

[Knight]

If you're averaging more tipper hits than non-tipper hits, then Marth is always the better option. Higher damage potential, that's the name of the game, anything Lucina can do, Marth can potentially do better. I have to say I'm disappointed with the clones in Smash 4. Lucina was one of my favourite characters in FE: A, so I was happy when she was announced, but then she was announced as a Marth clone, which was still okay, I'm a Marth main, so as long as she had enough changes in her moveset, she could be interesting. Then it turned out her only difference really made her a Marth for less-skilled players, which didn't sit well with me. At least the clones introduced in Melee had a few significant differences in some of their properties, there was a different playstyle to Falco, Ganondorf and Young Link. Lucina has none of that.

To top it all off, she was a clone of a nerfed character. Marth lacks a lot of the combos that made him deadly. His strategy was always to keep on slashing away, never letting your opponent make a move. Marth now doesn't really have that at all, he's too slow. Still, he's getting a little better, and I still don't think he's a bad character. Mediocre.

My hopes for Lucina would be too completely change a lot of her properties, make her faster or heavier or something to change her up.

[Florete]

Lucina: the most pointless character slot in Smash, beating out even Dank Pit for the title.

Lol wut? Dark Pit has, like, two different moves, and they end up just being worse than Pit's. Lucina's difference may be simple in theory, but it changes nearly every attack and completely changes how the character is played.

I just wish they were...well, better. They seem like they're supposed to be fast but end up feeling slow. Lucina's f smash is actually surprisingly powerful, though; I recently got a kill with it uncharged on a Robin at 79% after the hit, no rage near the edge of the stage. Probably bad DI, but still.

[Jedi]

Lol wut? Dark Pit has, like, two different moves, and they end up just being worse than Pit's. Lucina's difference may be simple in theory, but it changes nearly every attack and completely changes how the character is played.

I just wish they were...well, better. They seem like they're supposed to be fast but end up feeling slow. Lucina's f smash is actually surprisingly powerful, though; I recently got a kill with it uncharged on a Robin at 79% after the hit, no rage near the edge of the stage. Probably bad DI, but still.

Funny enough Dark Pit's side B gives him a better matchup against Rosalina.

But on the rest I agree.

[euklyd]

Robin: [...] If playing against Lucina, you can hope for a satisfying "How can you protect your father if you can't even protect yourself?" victory screen.

does anyone remember how to control victory poses in this game? everything I've read says the d-pad, but I can't figure out the timing for getting that pose at all

(that being said in the ~20 tests I ran I got the with-chrom pose all of once time, so I assume I was correctly controlling for the others...somehow)

To top it all off, she was a clone of a nerfed character. Marth lacks a lot of the combos that made him deadly. His strategy was always to keep on slashing away, never letting your opponent make a move. Marth now doesn't really have that at all, he's too slow. Still, he's getting a little better, and I still don't think he's a bad character. Mediocre.

this has never been marth's gameplan

he excelled at controlling space and forcing his opponent into bad spots, then capitalizing, not rushdown blinding aggression

of course, in this game marth's attacks don't link into each other and many moves with which you'd attempt to control space are unsafe risks, which is basically his problem

Edited September 3, 2015 by Euklyd

[Florete]

Funny enough Dark Pit's side B gives him a better matchup against Rosalina.

Uh...How?

[Icemario]

Pit's focuses on vertical knockback, Dark Pit's focuses on horizontal knockback.

So landing it with Dark Pit = Luma flying off the stage and dying, aka a better situation for him. It's pretty neat.

[Dotty]

Due to the recent universal changes to hitlag, Marth is now unquestionably better than Lucina. Tipped or untipped, Marth's attacks are much safer on shield. Between Jab 1, SideB, NAir 1, falling UAir, FAir and all Tilts, Marth actually has a lot of good tools to work with. Also, in terms of grab range, Marcina are on the upper end of non-tether ranges; no buffs necessary there in my opinion.

Lucina's difference may be simple in theory, but it changes nearly every attack and completely changes how the character is played.

Not really? Forgive me if I'm wrong (since I do not play her), but shouldn't Lucina be doing all the same things as Marth? They both have the same moves and frame data; it's still a moveset made for spacing.

The only advantage Lucina gets is to kill with FSmash more reliably, which doesn't at all make up for Marth's strengths.

[~Silver]

imo make a new post for this when you've finished actually writing your post and put your update there; I doubt that anyone is going to read back a page or two to check to see if you've updated your post

not sure what the point is to reserving posts...

YOU KNOW WHAT, EUKLYD.

MAYBE I WILL.

First, I'm somewhat disappointed that we got to my main fighter already, I kinda wanted Marth/Lucina to be a big deal, but whatever.

Time to get to my bread and butter!

Except I don't like butter!

I'm all about that JAM.

There's so much disliking about Lucina compared to Marth, how there's "no difference," "Lucina is a waste of a character slot," "How can she protect Chrom if she can't even protect herself??!?"

I'd have to highly disagree. It doesn't matter how much skill you have with Marth, (or Pit, or Duck Hunt, Olimar, etc.) there's still the fact that, without tippers, Marth has a hard time killing.

Lucina has more damage in general, balanced throughout her sword. She doesn't have to space as much, and this is AMAZING: Lucina can be aggressive, something that a swordwielder needs to be. Going back to her doing more damage, even if only slightly, she can kill on average earlier than Marth. Now, there's the argument that Marth has tippers, and while this is true, Marth struggles to have an upper-hand in matchups. He's constantly kept a distance with characters who have projectiles, or perhaps he has to have a space-off with characters who rely on spacing as well. Marth has to be patient: he suffers from endlag, and in a game where punishes can mean the difference between stocks, Marth CANNOT afford to make too many risks.

Now, I'm not saying that Lucina is a better character in any way: the fact that Marth has the POTENTIAL to kill earlier makes him higher in almost any regard, but I just believe Lucina gets too much crap for being labeled as a clone, when she plays almost entirely different. (Or should be)

Now, things aren't all too terrible for Marth. With non-tippers he can juggle heavy characters, (with the majority of them not having... Too lethal projectiles, mind you) while light characters should always be wary of tippers - Rage-Marth is severely underestimated. Shield Breaker gives him a small horizontal recovery, the more the longer it charges, and even when it isn't tippered it nearly shatters shields. Dancing Blade Up can kill tippered, and this isn't too hard regarding the fact you've got them in the air with the first few hits. (I would also like to note that it gives a small stall in the air when used, but this has been decreased between installments of Smash) Dancing Blade Down tends to catch opponents off-guard with its multiple hits, sometimes shields are dropped too early, and Dancing Sheild Forward isn't bad at all regarding damage and spacing. Dolphin Slash is a recovery that can damage characters trying to edgeguard, and in regards to stage-spiking it isn't too shabby - not at all. It DOES leave Marth a bit vulnerable with a predictable way back onto ledges, and a gimped Marth won't profit too much from it, but it's a very good recovery in my opinion.

...and Counter is Counter.

Like, what... What do you want me to say about it?

[Jedi]

Uh...How?

Horizontal knock back knocks Luma off way easier. This is partly why Nairo switches between both Pits, their knock back differences make them better in certain matchups.

[Dotty]

She doesn't have to space as much, and this is AMAZING: Lucina can be aggressive, something that a swordwielder needs to be.

No, she has to play the same as Marth. They have the same endlag on their attacks, so how could Lucina be more aggressive? If anything, Marth can be more aggressive since he's safer on shield than Lucina. Both really need to be spacing though.

Marth's constantly kept a distance with characters who have projectiles, or perhaps he has to have a space-off with characters who rely on spacing as well. Marth has to be patient: he suffers from endlag, and in a game where punishes can mean the difference between stocks, Marth CANNOT afford to make too many risks.

All of this applies to Lucina too, so...?

Edited September 3, 2015 by Dotty

[Zera]

Lucina's f smash is actually surprisingly powerful, though; I recently got a kill with it uncharged on a Robin at 79% after the hit, no rage near the edge of the stage. Probably bad DI, but still.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Lucina

lol, Lucina's style is "Forward Smash". That sounds like fun.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth

Here's Marth's frame data as well, so you can compare them side by side.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Zera

[~Silver]

No, she has to play the same as Marth. They have the same endlag on their attacks, so how could Lucina be more aggressive? If anything, Marth can be more aggressive since he's safer on shield than Lucina. Both really need to be spacing though.

All of this applies to Lucina too, so...?

Lucina doesn't have the benefit of the tipper. Yes, you can play Marth aggressively, but that's wasting his potential. With Marth, you want to space his HITBOXES. With Lucina, you don't need to worry about that.

And yes, that all does indeed apply to Lucina. I apologize, as I main Marth, and therefor anything I cover NOT involving Marth's tipper-effect also applies to Lucina.

Now, I didn't get to cover everything yet, and I haven't even STARTED covering matchups with my mains. But I suppose I will discuss Counter: Counter can be used as a threshold of things, such as edgeguarding, punishing, reads, and more. But Counter should be a card that is rarely played, because doing Counter in situations, such as offstage or returning to the ground, can lead to a hard punish, so my advice is to use Counter sparingly: you want your foe to forget you even have it.

I'd like to mention that Marth has a killthrow, and in a game where shields are so powerful, a killthrow is a godsend straight from Naga. Up Throw can kill at around a 150% range, give-or-take rage. Speaking of throws, Forward Throw and Back Throw aren't anything to write home to Caeda about, but the real deal here is Down Throw, which can combo into a Back-Air, and at low enough per cents/Non-tippered Back-Airs can lead to a couple Forward Airs.

[Ice Sage]

Ah, Marth. you have seen better days. He is still fun, but those nerfs :(

Favorite character to use in melee. he needs to have lag reduce from his aerials and a better reward from his grabs.

[Zera]

What if Marth/Lucina and Luigi switched grabs?

Edited September 3, 2015 by Zera

[Elieson]

Then Lucina would feel left out