Worst Units and Classes

[Duke of Dozel]

Her problem is that she's so invaluable as a tank early on and spent so much time raising her Lance Rank that the class change just isn't worth it.

She COULD build up her axes while being a general or great knight, help making the transition not such a bad thing, and like you said, who cares about E rank when a forged bronze's only weakness is not being able to crit, which with elfie isn't a big deal.

[-Cynthia-]

Honestly, it has nothing to do with E Axes. The transition from a General with a Steel Lance to a Berserker with a Bronze Axe is only a loss of 3 Attack Power. Bronze Axes can be cheaply forged and you can make a Bronze Axe +2 for the same cost of a single Steel Lance.

Her problem is that she's so invaluable as a tank early on and spent so much time raising her Lance Rank that the class change just isn't worth it.

I guess the main reason for the class change is the extra 3 Spd and 2 Str base over Great Knight(and caps I suppose). -5 Def is a pretty big hit to durability though

[Ownagepuffs]

Also adding on that if Hana does use the Reverse Katana you'll need to make sure she doesn't end in the range of a Zerker. WTD against a Zerker is just asking to get crit killed. Nishiki also works pretty well in the endgame since he pushes super speed and can get super tanky with the guard stone and he has Four Fangs around that time which is pretty great softening up for your other units.

Clearly Maid Elfie is best Elfie

Tfw you bench Nishiki for Hinoka!Kinu. 4F comes kinda late though but he's still great against the numerous mounts late game. Not participating in the weapon triangle has its ups and downs.

Edit: weapon rank bonus factors into weapon rank loss. I'd rather be at B Lances and have access to things like Beastkiller then start at E. There is more than 1 issue with Fighter/Zerker Effie.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Shadow Mir]

Honestly, it has nothing to do with E Axes. The transition from a General with a Steel Lance to a Berserker with a Bronze Axe is only a loss of 3 Attack Power. Bronze Axes can be cheaply forged and you can make a Bronze Axe +2 for the same cost of a single Steel Lance.

Her problem is that she's so invaluable as a tank early on and spent so much time raising her Lance Rank that the class change just isn't worth it.

Maybe not, but it sure doesn't help. And I'm thinking the -5 Def makes it even more questionable.

EDIT: How does Orochi stack up?

Edited October 10, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Tooru]

Berserker!Effie = Berserker!Charlotte + better joining time.

Is "bad joining time" the only problem of Charlotte? Everyone who has played the game agrees that General/Great Knight is one of the best, but is Charlotte better than her?

I have tried to train Charlotte and my answers are both no.

For training Axe Ranks, as soon as Lances are dealing more damage on all enemies I don't what to try anything else.

There isn't any better unit than Effie to use OHKO Lance Brave Lance.

[Ownagepuffs]

Maybe not, but it sure doesn't help. And I'm thinking the -5 Def makes it even more questionable.

EDIT: How does Orochi stack up?

Missed this edit. In my opinion, she suffers from RD Mage syndrome. Low Mt weapons and mediocre speed (even though Spellcaster has great 15% speed growth). Despite how good the Spellcaster class is, the units who start it in aren't that good, unfortunately.

[Shephen]

She can orko Generals and Great Knights pretty easily which is hard for most of the cast in Hoshido. She also has like 2nd best attack stance behind Takumi since her mag is nuke levels.

[Tooru]

Maybe not, but it sure doesn't help. And I'm thinking the -5 Def makes it even more questionable.

EDIT: How does Orochi stack up?

She will always have low Spd but high Mag and good Skl. I don't think these can be changed.

It is doable to have some units that never take any hits, and at least she is a good support unit in Attack Stance.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Tooru

[CocoaGalaxy]

20/20 Exorcist Orochi, Snake God, A Rank Tomes, Exorcist Pair Up (4 MAG/SPD), Tomefaire

vs

HE Hard 20/18 General

(Tomes have WTD against Lances)

Orochi: 50 ATK, 21 AS before Weapon Rank/Triangle

General: 56 HP, 12 SPD, 19 RES

Well I didn't really have to do any calculations, this was pretty obvious as is (She'd 1RKO with a Fire Tome really)

H23 Hard 20/7 Great Knight > Assume 20/12 Exorcist Orochi, Snake God, A Rank Tomes, Exorcist Pair Up (No Tomefaire this time)

Orochi: 41 ATK, 18 AS before Weapon Rank/Triangle

Great Knight: 42 HP, 14 AS, 12 RES

Orochi can't double without Snake. Snake still results in a 2HKO though

H9 Lunatic 7/0 Knight > Assume 12/0 Spellcaster Orochi, Spellcaster Pair Up (3 MAG/SPD)

Orochi: 17 MAG, 11 AS, @22 ATK with Ox God

Knight: 28 HP, 6 AS, 4 RES

Take it as you wish

(Also these aren't the defensive stats, but then again, I favor Hana, who has like "no" defenses [she's the 3rd/4th most vulnerable character in the game, but it still depends on things and reclassing])

"Off Topic"

Most Vulnerable Characters

(HP + Defense at 20/20)

Azura: 34

Adventurer!Nyx: 38 (Realistically speaking I think Sorcerer would just be better, but what can I say)

Strategist!Felicia: 39

Strategist!Elise:40

Golden Kite!Setsuna: 43

Trueblade!Hana: 46 (She's even lower as an Exorcist but why would you even do that?)

Golden Kite!Yuugiri: 48 (She's even lower as an Exorcist....but would you really do that now?)

Speed is a more problematic thing though

Edited October 10, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Tooru]

So I am in Nohr 13 again.

In IF, when we are 3HKOing, we are 2HKOing.

The reason why Effie cannot double when she is 2HKOing enemies:

[Ownagepuffs]

20/20 Exorcist Orochi, Snake God, A Rank Tomes, Exorcist Pair Up (4 MAG/SPD), Tomefaire

vs

HE Hard 20/18 General

(Tomes have WTD against Lances)

Orochi: 50 ATK, 21 AS before Weapon Rank/Triangle

General: 56 HP, 12 SPD, 19 RES

Well I didn't really have to do any calculations, this was pretty obvious as is (She'd 1RKO with a Fire Tome really)

H23 Hard 20/7 Great Knight > Assume 20/12 Exorcist Orochi, Snake God, A Rank Tomes, Exorcist Pair Up (No Tomefaire this time)

Orochi: 41 ATK, 18 AS before Weapon Rank/Triangle

Great Knight: 42 HP, 14 AS, 12 RES

Orochi can't double without Snake. Snake still results in a 2HKO though

H9 Lunatic 7/0 Knight > Assume 12/0 Spellcaster Orochi, Spellcaster Pair Up (3 MAG/SPD)

Orochi: 17 MAG, 11 AS, @22 ATK with Ox God

Knight: 28 HP, 6 AS, 4 RES

Take it as you wish

(Also these aren't the defensive stats, but then again, I favor Hana, who has like "no" defenses [she's the 3rd/4th most vulnerable character in the game, but it still depends on things and reclassing])

"Off Topic"

Most Vulnerable Characters

(HP + Defense at 20/20)

Azura: 34

Adventurer!Nyx: 38 (Realistically speaking I think Sorcerer would just be better, but what can I say)

Strategist!Felicia: 39

Strategist!Elise:40

Golden Kite!Setsuna: 43

Trueblade!Hana: 46 (She's even lower as an Exorcist but why would you even do that?)

Golden Kite!Yuugiri: 48 (She's even lower as an Exorcist....but would you really do that now?)

Speed is a more problematic thing though

Friendly reminder that 20/20 + A weapon rank is a very generous assumption. Not that it would change anything since GKs and Generals have like no res and her magic is stupid high.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Weapon ranks are a ..finnicky? Thing

You could play through the game and struggle to get a B (A for Ryoma/Xander) by the end

Or you could basically ram your weapon rank caps the moment you get them

It's probably more of the first one in Nohr, but it could go either way in Hoshido/Invisible Kingdom

Numerically speaking people can have their characters at anywhere from 0 to 10 levels above the enemy's current levels or so

(Being underlevelled probably means you really didn't bother to use the character in the first place, and if that's the case, it really doesn't matter how good they are, like.....Takumi can probably 2HKO enemies for several chapters even at base Level, and Ryoma can 2RKO...for a long time, I would think, but that's more of an exception rather than the norm.)

Uh...well somewhat anyway.

Somewhat

Edited October 10, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Tooru]

Weapon ranks from one of my save data at Lunatic Nohr 27:

A-Sword: Kamui(+Mag-Lck), Xander, Silas(Brave Sword)

A-Axe: Camilla(Brave Axe), Belka

A-Bow: Zero (Mighty Bow)

A-Kunai: Kaze

A-Lance: Benoit, Effie(Brave Lance)

A-Beaststone: Flannel

B-Dragonstone: Kamui(+Mag-Lck)

B-Sword: Bow Knight Luna

B-Tome: Strategist Leo

C-Lance: Azura (the cap of singer lol)

I got Eponine very late so she has B-bow and C-Staff.

I got Shigure but never used him. He is lv14 and has B-Lance, C-Staff.

A child that joins late will have high ranks, but it is not easy to hit any caps.

Those who started to train an E-rank after lv20 (i.e. after promoting):

C-tome: Kamui, Elise, Felicia

C-Bow: Luna

To hit A-rank, units in multi-weapon class have to give up other weapons:

D-Lance: Silas, Xander

D-Sword: Leo

D-tome: Camilla

E-Lance: Camilla

E-Axe: Benoit, Effie

E-Bow: Kaze

Edited October 10, 2015 by Tooru

[astrophys]

Interesting….

What did you take as your subclass for your +MAG/-LCK Kamui, by the way?

I'm asking as I think I'm planning to go with that too. (Although my motivations were originally of a role-play driven nature; +MAG is "intelligent", basically, from the translations that I read. I was originally thinking -STR or -DEF to reflect my own real-life physical weakness, but then I considered how colossally unlucky Kamui is to be put in the scenario where they have to choose between their two families like that, so I decided -LCK would really fit for the circumstances that he's in.)

I'd imagine it would make a decent Dragontank early on as well, given that it gives +3 starting magic (and thus Dragon damage), +15% net magic growth (+20%-5%=+15%) and doesn't hurt defense at all.

[Tooru]

Interesting….

What did you take as your subclass for your +MAG/-LCK Kamui, by the way?

I'm asking as I think I'm planning to go with that too. (Although my motivations were originally of a role-play driven nature; +MAG is "intelligent", basically, from the translations that I read. I was originally thinking -STR or -DEF to reflect my own real-life physical weakness, but then I considered how colossally unlucky Kamui is to be put in the scenario where they have to choose between their two families like that, so I decided -LCK would really fit for the circumstances that he's in.)

I'd imagine it would make a decent Dragontank early on as well, given that it gives +3 starting magic (and thus Dragon damage), +15% net magic growth (+20%-5%=+15%) and doesn't hurt defense at all.

Dark Mage for Bind. But I bought Bind for logbook so the subclass was not used...

As you see, he reaches higher rank on Sword. That means he used Yato more often than Dragonstone.

Anyway, I just want to show that reaching A-rank for a 1-gen unit is not so difficult, if the unit starts with that weapon and you decide to reach it.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Realistically speaking I'm still not sure how you would go about doing things

In any case I suppose I'll just do some random calculations

Today we're doing Odin, Trueblade and Sorcerer..though you could also argue for Dark Knight. Classes are such a drag at times...and in Nohr, there's usually less of a clear cut "don't choose this class" going on, so I really don't know

20/20 Trueblade Odin, A Swords, Swordfaire, General Pair Up (+3 Str, +5 Def). A Str/Spd Pair up could be better as well offensively, I guess

45 HP, 26 STR, 33 SPD, 21 DEF, 17 RES

20/20 Sorcerer Odin. A Tomes, Devilish Wind +2 Mag, Hero Pair Up (+3 Spd, +2 Def). Again, what to choose from pair ups, hmm

40 HP, 28 MAG, 25 SPD, 23 DEF, 21 RES

Nohr Endgame Hard

Hero: 54 HP, 41/45 ATK, 31 AS, 26 DEF, 18 RES, Swallow Strike

Exorcist: 44 HP, 44 ATK, 28 AS, 15 DEF, 23 RES, Vantage

Shura: 49 HP, 47/35 ATK, 23 AS, 33 DEF, 22 RES, Diamond Strike

Dark Knight: 49 HP, 40 ATK, 17 AS, 32 DEF, 20 RES, Mirror Strike

Paladin: 51 HP, 44 ATK, 25 AS, 30 DEF, 25 RES, Aegis

General: 58 HP, 50 ATK, 13 AS, 38 DEF, 20 RES, Pavise, Defensive Formation

Bow Knight: 48 HP, 40/43 ATK, 32 AS, 20 DEF, 26 RES, Raven Strike

Odds seem rather stacked against Odin

Offenses:

Trueblade @ Silver Sword: 46 ATK, 33 AS

Sorcerer @ Rainarok: 41 ATK, 28 AS

Well yeah Trueblade Odin is really only going to one round the exorcists and nothing else

Sorcerer Odin can probably hurt the slower units a fair bit, but probably can't one round

Defenses:

Trueblade: 45 HP, 26 DEF, 17 RES, 33 AS

Sorcerer: 40 HP, 25 DEF, 21 RES, 28 AS

The Elite Ninjas will probably rip Odin to pieces.

Odin is roughly going to be about 2hko'd by a lot of things, which is still pretty hard to swallow

Hmmm...what to say....

[Duke of Dozel]

Even at 20/20, Odin can't keep up. His STR is at it's best when as a Dark Knight, but he's stuck with B rank swords and a lowered STR cap.

Nyx has weaker durability, as well as Elise, but both have the magic to keep up and ORKO enemies. It's best to just use Odin as a means to get the much better Ophelia.

....It's such a shame he's just so meh. He has to rely on crits to kill reliably.

[CocoaGalaxy]

It's kind of awkward, like, dissonant really.

Sigh

In any case, from a stat basis, the enemies tend to have very..awkwardish stats

On one hand, enemies "easily" get 30+ in stats that make it steeped against the players

On the other hand, you have things like slow enemies, and enemies with "sub par" stats as well, so it's kind of hard to tell what happens

[Tooru]

Give Odin a Mjolnir+1 with a 8 kanji name, choose him as the supporter in Attack Stance, and then we can pray for OHKO... But I won't base my tactics on criticals.

By getting Ophelia we also get Horse God and Reverse God.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Tooru

[astrophys]

That's a good point…. certain units have weapons they come with or in their paralogue, so depending on how good the weapons are, it might be worth trying to get them, even if you don't use them, so that the main members of your team can get those weapons…

I mean, I suppose Odin could be used as pair-up fodder to some other magic user to get Ophelia and her weapons…

On Hohsido, Tsubaki produces Matoi, who brings us a free Swordslayer Nagainata.

[Duke of Dozel]

How do units like Fuuga, Asura, Izana, Yuugiri, Flora and Yukimura fair in the game? I'm tempted to use more Kamuisexuals but only if they are good enough to last.

[Shephen]

Haven't used Fuuga so can't comment on him

Asyura is a really good unit. In Hoshido he functions sort of as a Gotoh joining at the end of chapter 22 I believe as a level 10 adventurer and the next two chapters have a lot of wyvern spam which he can just instantly blick. Staves are also cool. In Nohr he functions as a standard pre-promote with lower bases than his Hoshido incarnation joining as a level 2 Adventurer. He will for the most part be better than Zero on join, but worse in the later of the game. But his bases are good and will carry him far and he can be really helpful in chapter 24. He also starts with D staves so he doesn't have to go through the staff grind like Zero. Adventurer is also basically a required class on Lunatic since you need Pass for the Endgame since fighting everything there is just no so he can fill the roll there. IK he joins with his Hoshido bases, but at chapter 15 now, so he is really amazing. His really high bases are offset by his virtually non-existent exp gain for most of the game since he is level 20/10 adventurer when you probably only have like 3 promoted units. He can do stuff at base, which is more than what most of the IK cast can say on Lunatic.

Izana is a weird unit. In Hoshido his best function is joining at the very latest so he joins with his highest stats so he can have the highest accuracy using Misfortune of Sin on the final boss. Not much else for him to do in Hoshido. In Nohr his staff utility is amazing for chapter 26 fighting off all the maids with Silence. His Aura is also alright and he is the only one with Rally mag which is cool

Yuugiri is really great in both IK and Hoshido. In Hoshido she is a plug and play pre-promote with really great offense, but not very good defenses. IK she can function at base, which like I said before is more than a lot of units can say. She will fall off near the end though and doesn't have the staff utility like Asyura does unless she relcasses to Falcon Knight, but then Baki or Hinoka can do the same thing she would be doing.

Flora is meh. She joins pretty late and her bases aren't amazing. Staff utility, Auras and debuffs are really good though. Just don't expect much amazing things to be happening.

Yukimura is an authority star from Thracia basically.

[Gwimpage]

I want to throw in some good words for Izana too real quick. He's a free staff user with access to Rally Magic, which is nice for your magic users and it slightly increases your staff accuracy. His staff ranks allow him to use Freeze and Weakness to assist in safely clearing tough enemy formations in Ch25 or Ch26. Effective staff use in the lategame is essential if you don't want to die or resort to turtling. You can push forward more easily by incapacitating an enemy with Freeze and moving to kill the remaining enemies. Izana joins in on the staff fun for free and with his Magic stat he can even offer the occasional chip if needed.

His aura is pretty decent too I guess. Izana is basically a full-out support character and does more work helping the team than being the team.

[Ryo]

That's a good point…. certain units have weapons they come with or in their paralogue, so depending on how good the weapons are, it might be worth trying to get them, even if you don't use them, so that the main members of your team can get those weapons…

I mean, I suppose Odin could be used as pair-up fodder to some other magic user to get Ophelia and her weapons…

On Hohsido, Tsubaki produces Matoi, who brings us a free Swordslayer Nagainata.

Thing is, Tsubaki is actually much easier to deploy and S-rank since he has a fast support with Kazahana. In Lunatic, by constantly pairing the two up, I unlocked Matoi's paralogue right after chapter 10. And even then, Tsubaki still held up pretty well past that point and was usable for the most parts.

Odin is a more unfortunate case because Nohr is much harder and he doesn't have any fast support with any female. After chapter 10 and as more units are introduced, forcefully deploying him means that you're gonna have to bench someone that's arguably more useful.

Also, if you don't mind grinding and only care for the children/weapons, you can support-grind via MC battles (without gaining EXP)/DLC etc. That way you don't have to deploy someone that you don't like.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Ryo

[astrophys]

Thing is, Tsubaki is actually much easier to deploy and S-rank since he has a fast support with Kazahana. In Lunatic, by constantly pairing the two up, I unlocked Matoi's paralogue right after chapter 10. And even then, Tsubaki still held up pretty well past that point and was usable for the most parts.

On that note, how did Hana!Matoi turn out? I imagine that she could be fairly good… she doesn't get Lancefaire (on her own; marriage to a Lance Fighter Avatar or Shinonome can address this), but that's a really late-game skill anyways and won't come into play for much of the game.

In the meantime, her growths seem to position her as a glass cannon…. it should be less HP, MAG, LCK, and DEF DEF/RES than a royal like Hinoka, but superior STR, SKL, and SPD, which should mean that overall she'd also tend to have somewhat more killing power prior to the arrival of weaponfaires….

Which skill did you inherit onto her? Perhaps a Flowing Strike + Swallow Strike combination by passing down Flowing?

Also, to test a hypothesis, if you still have the file, does she give +2 Str, +1 Spd, and +2 Def to her S-rank partner beyond that which her class alone would grant?