Do You Like The Kids? / Your Thoughts on Them

[joshcja]

There's an idea that I think NekoKnight (if not someone else) mentioned about how the kids could be the apprentice of a character, with both of the 'parents' contributing to their training or something.

But then how would we ship?

[saisymbolic]

But then how would we ship?

The same way people have done since forever: without logic.

[Tsunami922]

Answered no and no. I hope this is something they don't bring back.

[NekoKnight]

Fates implementation is beautiful mechanically speaking, but that comes at the cost of their story implentation. That said, barring the second gen Awakening trio, I very much like them as characters, and their supports are generally very good.

I'm fine with them becoming a mainstay feature, tho I would much prefer a better plot reason to justify their existance.

This. The scaling levels works great but the story implications and justifications are beyond bad.

There were a few children I liked, for appearance or personality but that was independent of them being second gen characters. Midoriko, Shinonome, Kinu, Matoi, Velour and Ophelia... Everyone else got benched. I prefer to headcanon them as being 1st gen characters.

I hate the kids here and how they're implemented, with only Shiro being the exception (since he's actually a decent character in and of himself). It reduces the variety of units you get, the amount of lategame prepromotes, and the character designs since everyone has to look fuckable (so no more actually really old people like Niime or Jagen). And honesty, I'm sick of the focus on min maxing and eugenics that children inevitably bring. Like, if I want to play Final Fantasy Tactics, I'll just play Final Fantasy Tactics. This isn't why I play Fire Emblem.

Gunter. Your sorta-dad figure that is fuckable.

In a way, my problem with the children is generally related to the Avatar system, how the support system has evolved and how IS really needs to go back to how supports worked in Path of Radiance or in Blazing Sword—or, at the very least, limit the number of supports each character can have. That's a different rant, however.

This is entirely relevant. Children don't just cause problems for the story, they create a need for everyone to support with everyone, regardless of compatibility. I'd keep the support point gaining system from Fates but reduce the pool to people they have a reason to talk to. I want to see relationships that don't have romance/children as the primary objective.

There's an idea that I think NekoKnight (if not someone else) mentioned about how the kids could be the apprentice of a character, with both of the 'parents' contributing to their training or something.

Not my idea but I'd be okay with it. Related to what Sai said above, however, I'd prefer that Unlimited Shipping Works being taken out of the equation. Skill/Growth/Mod passing is an interesting idea but I don't want to see it at the cost of characterization.

Edited March 16, 2016 by NekoKnight

[joshcja]

To add to my post.

I adore the mechanics aspect of eugenics in this game, it's such a deep well made system. Fuck skill buying fuck skill buying fuck skill buying why is that a thing.

WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN

[Phoenix_Kensai]

There's an idea that I think NekoKnight (if not someone else) mentioned about how the kids could be the apprentice of a character, with both of the 'parents' contributing to their training or something.

I had a similar idea, actually. While I admit I never cared about the gameplay part of the children and it wouldn't bother me to see it go, for the people who do like it, they could have some sort of mentor system. I don't know exactly how it would work, but if you could assign new recruits a mentor to pass along stat modifiers and skills... that could be interesting. I guess I wasn't the first person to think of that after all.

This is entirely relevant. Children don't just cause problems for the story, they create a need for everyone to support with everyone, regardless of compatibility. I'd keep the support point gaining system from Fates but reduce the pool to people they have a reason to talk to. I want to see relationships that don't have romance/children as the primary objective.

This is a good point I didn't think of when making my first post. I miss the old style of supports, where many of them (even between opposite sex pairs) weren't romantic, and those that were weren't necessarily guaranteed to end with a happy marriage. I think there was more room for variety that way, where many of Awakening's and Fates' supports seem built around the possibility of marriage.

I did like the support point system from Path of Radiance, though. It wasn't perfect, with no way to speed things up (and the potential for it to become impossible to unlock a support you wanted, if you didn't use the pair together often enough), but I liked the way that let them be tied more to the story. That way they could write supports knowing certain events would have passed before the player read them. I don't think the game took advantage of that often, but... still. I liked the idea.

[NekoKnight]

I did like the support point system from Path of Radiance, though. It wasn't perfect, with no way to speed things up (and the potential for it to become impossible to unlock a support you wanted, if you didn't use the pair together often enough), but I liked the way that let them be tied more to the story. That way they could write supports knowing certain events would have passed before the player read them. I don't think the game took advantage of that often, but... still. I liked the idea.

I liked earning support points just for participating on the same map. It eliminated the problem of units who don't fight close enough to support each other, but I didn't like how if you didn't field the characters together enough, you couldn't unlock the support. I wouldn't mind a combination of Path of Radiance and Fates for earning points. They could make chapter based limitations on support development, just like they did for Suzukaze and Midoriko.

And give us base conversations back.

[saisymbolic]

I did like the support point system from Path of Radiance, though. It wasn't perfect, with no way to speed things up (and the potential for it to become impossible to unlock a support you wanted, if you didn't use the pair together often enough), but I liked the way that let them be tied more to the story. That way they could write supports knowing certain events would have passed before the player read them. I don't think the game took advantage of that often, but... still. I liked the idea.

That's what I meant when I mentioned Path of Radiance. The system wasn't perfect—but what they attempted to do was a good idea, even if the execution was something of a nuisance. I remember a support line I liked in Blazing Sword was Kent x Fiora—the romantic implications were there in the A-rank but it was not until after all the crap settled down, did they decide to pursue a relationship. The writers acknowledged that romance had no place during the middle of a war and, in turn, it created something that formed my favorite pairing out of a Fire Emblem game.

Like I said in my earlier post, I know the newer support system is a part of the series' new found revival but they need to tone down this pair-everyone-with-everyone formula merely for the sake of shipping. There can be marriage—there can even be childbirth—but I would prefer if it was relevant to the story or, at least, had more depth than it does currently.

[Anacybele]

I despise them. I despise that the mechanic was brought back for this game when it has no relevance to plot, and I don't like the kids themselves either. I don't even recruit the damn children anymore.

Pretty much this. The children in this game are forced and completely unnecessary. I pretend that they don't exist because they should never have existed in the game in the first place.

[Mox]

I don't inherently dislike the mechanic nor the kids, I just dislike how they were presented to us in game. As in, I thought that the excuse to have them (secluded realms) was very poorly written - not only that but I thought that parent child interaction after their children had suddenly grown up was just as flawed. In a future game, if children did (and probably will) make a future return, I think that it would be nice to implement them in a way similar to Genealogy of the Holy War, where we would get to see our parent and our children units mature with a logical passing of time.

[NekoKnight]

I don't inherently dislike the mechanic nor the kids, I just dislike how they were presented to us in game. As in, I thought that the excuse to have them (secluded realms) was very poorly written - not only that but I thought that parent child interaction after their children had suddenly grown up was just as flawed. In a future game, if children did (and probably will) make a future return, I think that it would be nice to implement them in a way similar to Genealogy of the Holy War, where we would get to see our parent and our children units mature with a logical passing of time.

If they did a timeskip and second generation, I'd be totally okay with the first gen getting aged up. Most characters appear to be in their teens or twenties so a +15 year timeskip would put them around 30-40s old. Not bad. It would actually be interesting to see how characters grow and change over time.

[Ebony]

Mixed. Mechanics are great, I have my fair share of favorite kids, but they felt kind of tacked on.

[Sieghart]

In my case is mixed, since we got some good kids other are just for fanservice(awakening copys).

[PWJosh]

When I first saw the concept of the kids coming from the deeprealms I hates them, but a few of them have grown on me enough to say I have mixed feelings about kids in this game. I don't want to see them come back in future games though. One of the things I like about this series is that each game constantly changes the mechanics from the last and I would rather see something new rather than the return of kids. If they do return again then I would like a completely new way to handle kids and inheritance than awakening and fates system, just to keep things fresh.

[Juneriffic56]

In terms of Conquest and Neutral kids, since I haven't played Birthright, I like them a lot with some of my favorites being Soleil, Kana, Forrest and Ophelia.

However, I think that the whole "Deeprealm" thing is kinda forced, and that it really feels like that they were only added cause "Oh hey! Awakening had kids, so let's have kids in Fates too!".

Overall though, should kids return in the next game or should they not? Personally, either's fine with me.

[ckc22]

Awful.

Story wise the reasoning and explanations are even worse than awakening.

Mechanically the inheritance system is worse and much less interesting than awakening.

[eclipse]

I love them as a gameplay mechanic, but dear goodness, the in-game justifications is awful! If there was a party wipe, a la FE4, I wouldn't be so averse to them.

[jankmaster98]

Does

Child = lightsaber?

If Child = lightsaber = true
set.enjoyment = true
or Child = no lightsaber =true
set.enjoyment = false

It's a simple equation.

Nah,I think they have no relevance to the plot. It might've made more sense if the time shift thing was actually a mistake there could be guilt and character development involved.No, we got a hand wave. As units they ain't bad, but as characters they're hit or miss and implementation is very poor. That's all I gotta say, overall I'm on the fence leaning child units aren't that good of an idea without a timeskip/party kill.

[NeonZ]

If they did a timeskip and second generation, I'd be totally okay with the first gen getting aged up. Most characters appear to be in their teens or twenties so a +15 year timeskip would put them around 30-40s old. Not bad. It would actually be interesting to see how characters grow and change over time.

What makes something like that unlikely is that "aged up" characters pretty much would need to be their own characters, with their own models and artwork, alongside possibly different voice acting. I can't see IS doing that, unless the cast is much smaller, which likely would get its own complaints.

[NekoKnight]

What makes something like that unlikely is that "aged up" characters pretty much would need to be their own characters, with their own models and artwork, alongside possibly different voice acting. I can't see IS doing that, unless the cast is much smaller, which likely would get its own complaints.

Maybe. However unlikely, I like to think they'd be ambitious. Heaven help me if we get another "parents and future children coexisting" again. Just thinking about it makes me wretch.

[Kativera]

Kana is adorable, that's my reasoning behind it.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Kids were poorly implemented even compared to Awakening. They just have no place in Fates at all.

Next game shouldn't have them but I'm sure it will anyway...

I also hate how Scarlet got shafted in supports yet we got all these unimportant kids running around.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[Ezrius]

Mixed bag for me. I really like a few of the characters like Anna and Soleil (having only played Conquest thus far), and I could take or leave some of the rest. To be fair though, that's no different than non-child characters. I studied Biology and Organic Evolution fairly extensively at one point, so the concept appeals to me and I'll never vote for it to be done away with entirely, but I'm not a series veteran so my only real comparison is Awakening. In that case, I find this format more reasonable. The child characters feel more comparable to the 1st gen characters in Fates, which I prefer. The fact that the majority of 1st gen characters were completely overshadowed by the children in Awakening, particularly the fact that Male Robin became iffy in comparison, was a pretty annoying quirk.

From a plot standpoint... these have been pretty goofy in both cases. I would argue Awakening actually handled the storytelling of the children better, where

they were from the future and time-traveled to save their parents like Cable, as opposed to the Fates children training with Vegeta in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber

. I think if I were to design an ideal scenario for the next game, I would include an actual time skip. The Awakening/Fates era of Fire Emblem is already leaning on anime tropes a bit, so they might as well use one that makes sense. Age the 1st gen sprites/models between two "acts" and then introduce the children. Maybe the characters thought they were successful in the first act but missed the underlying cause of the conflict. Or maybe it's another conflict altogether. Either way, the only real issue with this would be that this is a bit more design work for the 1st gen characters, but realistically its a slightly adjusted skin and perhaps a height difference for a couple. it would certainly make more sense and be more grounded.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Ezrius

[Ledrert]

My feelings are mixed. Some of them are nice, but they don't have any revelance for th plot. I don't mind not using them at all.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Mixed bag for me. I really like a few of the characters like Anna and Soleil (having only played Conquest thus far), and I could take or leave some of the rest. To be fair though, that's no different than non-child characters. I studied Biology and Organic Evolution fairly extensively at one point, so the concept appeals to me and I'll never vote for it to be done away with entirely, but I'm not a series veteran so my only real comparison is Awakening. In that case, I find this format more reasonable. The child characters feel more comparable to the 1st gen characters in Fates, which I prefer. The fact that the majority of 1st gen characters were completely overshadowed by the children in Awakening, particularly the fact that Male Robin became iffy in comparison, was a pretty annoying quirk.

From a plot standpoint... these have been pretty goofy in both cases. I would argue Awakening actually handled the storytelling of the children better, where

they were from the future and time-traveled to save their parents like Cable, as opposed to the Fates children training with Vegeta in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber

. I think if I were to design an ideal scenario for the next game, I would include an actual time skip. The Awakening/Fates era of Fire Emblem is already leaning on anime tropes a bit, so they might as well use one that makes sense. Age the 1st gen sprites/models between two "acts" and then introduce the children. Maybe the characters thought they were successful in the first act but missed the underlying cause of the conflict. Or maybe it's another conflict altogether. Either way, the only real issue with this would be that this is a bit more design work for the 1st gen characters, but realistically its a slightly adjusted skin and perhaps a height difference for a couple. it would certainly make more sense and be more grounded.

You're confusing Cable with his Half-Sister Rachel Grey-Summers.

Cable's main goal wasn't to go back and save his parents (And technically Jean isn't his mother, her clone Maddie is. While on the flip-side Rachel is Scott and Jean's biological daughter)... He had other reasons. Cable also isn't native to the future, he was born in the present/past. Cable also killed Scott and Jean in quite a few What-Ifs when X-Force rebelled against the X-Men over small disagreements. It's... Complicated.

Rachel Grey-Summers is the original to actually go back to change things for the better and she's the one that sent an infant Cable to the future in the first place, to save him from the techno organic-virus thing. Rachel also is the one, as Mother Askani, that transferred Scott and Jean into the future under aliases to raise Cable than returned them to the present when Cable was of age. This lead to the Sisterhood to ally with Gaunt to try and erase Mother Askani, their greatest enemy, by kidnapping a stranded Rachel when she was lost in the time stream after sacrificing herself to save Captain Britain.

However, all this did was "dupe" Rachel as Rachel had to become Mother Askani for many events to actually happen. Eventually Mother Askanki died anyway and Cable traveled to the End of Time itself to join arms with the captured Rachel, who was tortured and forced to send out a telepathic signature to lure Cable, and defeated Gaunt. Cable than brought Rachel back to 616 and hide her existence, as she wanted nothing to do with X-Men drama after her long ordeal, and Rachel went to college. She eventually rejoined the X-Men after finding out that Jean was murdered and raged at Emma for a long time for having an affair with her father.

Rachel than went on to many adventures and starred in a ridiculous number of issues and stories and is set to return soon in the All-New All-Different universe that is Post Secret Wars. Rachel also starred in 3 Secret Wars titles at the same time and was in the Infinity What-If for the X-Men.

Fun fact, Rachel has never gotten any real media pushes outside the comics yet is one of the longest running female X-Men in the comics after all the pushed females like Jean, Storm, Psylocke and the such and has been pretty much active for nearly her entire existence since her creation. Very few characters that also haven't been pushed by Marvel have had as such longevity as her and a strong loyal fanbase to this day.

I'm a huge Rachel fan.

Anyway, I see your point in regards to the kids. They were handled poorly and the story outright ignores that they even exist. It's really annoying.At least Awakening gave a reason for the kids and explained in the story why they were there.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome