Robin V Corrin

[TheWerdna]

If it were Corrin, they'd all just faint and be saved by mermaids - who'd all later want to bang Corrin.

They'd also be related to him.

This made my day.

[Butterstroke]

To me, Robin is a better character the Corrin overall, both in character story and in game play. If the customization were taken away from Robin and he was a normal character, his story wouldn't change and he would still fit in the story line. As for Corrin, his background is kinda bland to me and I don't care enough to focus on him.

For gameplay, Robin is able to change classes and work with practically anything you throw at him. Besides critical Ignis is overpowered. Corrin.... is only good with a sword...

[mikethepokemaster]

To me, Robin is a better character the Corrin overall, both in character story and in game play. If the customization were taken away from Robin and he was a normal character, his story wouldn't change and he would still fit in the story line. As for Corrin, his background is kinda bland to me and I don't care enough to focus on him.

For gameplay, Robin is able to change classes and work with practically anything you throw at him. Besides critical Ignis is overpowered. Corrin.... is only good with a sword...

Hey!_Corrin is good with staff and magic too.. Unless you reclass to vanguard, than he only good at swords and Axe's

I'm genuinely curious to see how Robin being the protagonist of Conquest would change things. I think he'd be actively planning Garon's demise instead of just waiting for stuff to happen. Surely Ganz at least would be dead before the half-way point.

Kamui was actually just adopted by Mikoto and his real, REAL mother is the Queen of Atlantis.

Kamui is a water dragon. My theory is supported by canon.

I want to say the Sig you have is too funny, I ship Lucina x Robin but I wonder how he feels when look at baby Lucina. Mikatoto could be Queen of Atlantis you never know. Her lover was a water dragon Edited May 13, 2016 by mikethepokemaster

[Anacybele]

Corrin is much better as a character, imo, at least in Birthright. But I think Robin was done better gameplaywise. Both are totally broken, but at least neither of Robin's weapon types were useless. I hardly ever found myself using Corrin's dragon form when her sword was better in every way.

[Ryas]

Robin is a better power fantasy, I'll give him that one.

[Sentinel07]

I'm still salty as fuck that Micaiah setting an army on fire is treated as a borderline moral event horizon, but Robin setting them on fire and drowning them is a-okay.

I think what we've learnt today is that making the Player Avatar the Lord is a stupid-ass decision

Agreed.

The player is the tactician. That's what we are and what it should always be. We're here to guide the heroes, not be the centerpiece. To me, that's the perfect role for the player.

[Roflolxp54]

There's also the fact that despite being the Fell Dragon's intended vessel, Robin doesn't have weakness against anti-dragon weapons.

Corrin, meanwhile, has to deal with being permanently weak to anti-dragon weapons, especially with Wyrmslayers being shoehorned into Ch. 5 just to teach the player about weapon effectiveness against certain units.

[Dragrath]

Robin was better than Corrin in every way. Largely because Robin has a defined place and role and didn't try and do everything. Also the fact that robin was unknowingly the final boss for much of the game lends somewhat of a reason for why Robin was so blatantly overpowered(though admittedly weak).

Gameplay wise Corrin is however far more balanced which along with other mechanics leads me to feel like fates was unfinished and probably needed far more time for development.

Corrin in particular feels like an unfinished character in that their actions are inconsistent poorly defined to outright idiotic. It feels like someone literally took storyboard plot points and dumped them together with no refinement, as if the concept never left concept stage before being made a reality. A rush the product to the shelves as we can't afford to be late sort of problem.

Which honestly is something that the game screams at you considering the large number of "corrin sexuals" and poorly put together plot points as well as large amounts of incomplete data found by hackers.

I get the feeling they did a "We want to do this and that and oh lets rebalence these mechanics and classes from awakening, and add these mechanics back, and.. crap we are almost out of time for our deadline lets just toss the storyboard in as is and call it a day so we can release on time."

Then the abomination that is fates character design and development happened...

If they focused on game play and mechanics first before rushing the rest then everything would make sense as to why it is the way it is. Maybe this could have been a great game with another year or so in development...

[Quintessence]

I hope this make IS abandon completely the idea of an avatar. I totally miss my old school FEs. Please, make original stories without dumb avatars.

[Namarid]

I hope this make IS abandon completely the idea of an avatar. I totally miss my old school FEs. Please, make original stories without dumb avatars.

I disagree. Avatars can work in FE they just need to be done well. Robins role in awakening, being mainly a side character, was a good start. Removal of the avatar,I feel, would hurt some of the game's replay ability as it removes a total customisable unit which you can then build tons of strategies around.

[NekoKnight]

I'm still salty as fuck that Micaiah setting an army on fire is treated as a borderline moral event horizon, but Robin setting them on fire and drowning them is a-okay.

I think what we've learnt today is that making the Player Avatar the Lord is a stupid-ass decision

There is an important difference in how both incidents were treated in universe. In Radiant Dawn, the one who objects to Micaiah's ruthless tactics is Sanaki, aka the target of the attempted (she doesn't actually succeed) fire massacre. Even then, her comments about the incident aren't to say that Micaiah is a shitty person; Sanaki was confused about what could drive Micaiah to be so vicious.

While no one on Robin's team criticized him, the correct parallel to Sanaki would be a Valmese general (which still isn't perfect because Sanaki is a sympathetic POV and Walharts forces aren't), which we don't get the perspective of. Sure, Robin's "Burn them all" strategy should have been met with something more sobering than "gg wp Robin" but it's not like Sothe criticized Micaiah for a similar tactic.

tl;dr, while RD had the maturity to have someone comment that Micaiah was being cruel, that comment didn't come from anyone on her own team, in the same way that Robin wasn't criticized by anyone of his team.

Lastly, I don't believe being above criticism is an instrinsic quality of player avatars, like Robin and Kamui seem to be. IS just sucks at writing.

Edited May 13, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Quintessence]

I disagree. Avatars can work in FE they just need to be done well. Robins role in awakening, being mainly a side character, was a good start. Removal of the avatar,I feel, would hurt some of the game's replay ability as it removes a total customisable unit which you can then build tons of strategies around.

Robin overshadowing Chrom is totally not a good start. Chrom had only like 9 chapters, the rest is Robin's show, specially endgame.

Avatar removal won't be a major issue regarding replay value, look at standard FEs, they have plenty of replay value and imo are much much better than nowadays FEs. If IS needs help writing and avatar stuff then they need it urgent because they've done a mess ultimately. I can even dare to say that modern FE don't have the quality of older FEs. But a decent story, well built characters (design, animations and supports), good gameplay and high qualitiy UI are enough to give FE plenty of replay value.

The avatar system was built among marriage, children system and casual mode to widen FEs niche.

[BrightBow]

As a character it's a no-brainer. Robin may be a sociopath with an very inflated opinion of herself and a strange phobia against male nudity but unlike mister "I-can't-thoughtlessly-touch-a-women's-body-before marriage" at least she doesn't exploit her servants, family and friends for petty self-gratification. Well, at least I am not aware of such instances.

Edited May 13, 2016 by BrightBow

[Namarid]

Robin overshadowing Chrom is totally not a good start. Chrom had only like 9 chapters, the rest is Robin's show, specially endgame.

Avatar removal won't be a major issue regarding replay value, look at standard FEs, they have plenty of replay value and imo are much much better than nowadays FEs. If IS needs help writing and avatar stuff then they need it urgent because they've done a mess ultimately. I can even dare to say that modern FE don't have the quality of older FEs. But a decent story, well built characters (design, animations and supports), good gameplay and high qualitiy UI are enough to give FE plenty of replay value.

The avatar system was built among marriage, children system and casual mode to widen FEs niche.

Robin only overshadowed chrom in the final portions of the game. Granted robin shouldn't of overshadowed chrom at all, so maybe it was 'decent' start rather than a good one.

FE will have replay value as long as the things you mentioned stay intact. Agreed. However, removal of the avatar system will detract from it. Again like I said a customisable unit opens up new strategies to the player and with Fates' marriage seal even the standard characters can be used differently by attaining classes that only can be given through the avatar. This is a major positive of the system.

I don't see how it being used to widen FE's niche is a bad thing and warrants it's removal.

[Quintessence]

The avatar system in itself isn't bad, it's terrible just how it affected negatively other aspects of the game: story, dialogues, supports, even character personality and growth, and that makes it less appealing in terms of quality. Fe13 and 14 are examples of this, although awakening did it better than fates in how less negatively it impacted said elements. Hence why IS needs to seek other ways to implemented, but I support more the idea of its removal. Still, a part of customization is alive with the reclass system, they will remove only alter egos and built characters created to simulate the idea of "you are in the videogame", which imo they've failed.

[saisymbolic]

I can say this with certainty: the Avatar system isn't going anywhere—at least, for the moment.

The first thing I would like to point out is that I feel that, while the Avatar system is meant to integrate the player into the game, it does not. For one, the Avatar isn't a self-insert—they are literally characters that you can slightly customize with their own predetermined personality and quirks. A self-insert would be something like the MC from the SMT series, Elder Scrolls dammit when is the next one coming out or Dragon Age; even still, those characters have a semblance of a personality due to how some choices are worded in-game.

I feel like the problem with Avatar characters in FE is that the writers don't want that character to have too little spotlight—because, then what would be the point of having them there? Robin was a good try, honestly. It seems most people are disgruntled because they became the main focus during the second half, when Chrom is the main character. With Fates, they made Corrin the main character, which sort of helped circumvent his stealing spotlight, but, in wanting to keep him in the spotlight, they made all the characters bend over to eat Corrin's dookie.

I feel like the Avatar character could be an interesting Narrator type. My favorite example would be if the Avatar was like Nick Carraway in The Great Gatsby. He isn't the main focus; he's just the vessel through which we experience the story.

Granted, you could take out the Avatar and still have that but... Eh.

[Azure Sen]

Robin for both. I'd argue that Corrin is, at the very least, way more of a special snowflake self-insert fantasy than Robin with no defined role beyond that, and Robin was allowed to make mistakes and learn from them (and have flaws, even if they didn't affect the actual story). Plus, if nothing else, Robin was way more decisive and proactive than Corrin is even on Birthright and Revelation. As for gameplay, I'd rather have a useful, fun to use and broken unit than another sword-wielding lord with a secondary weapon they'll probably never use and who is outclassed by several units.

I'm still salty as fuck that Micaiah setting an army on fire is treated as a borderline moral event horizon, but Robin setting them on fire and drowning them is a-okay.

The double standards and protagonist-centered morality is real.

I disagree. Avatars can work in FE they just need to be done well. Robins role in awakening, being mainly a side character, was a good start. Removal of the avatar,I feel, would hurt some of the game's replay ability as it removes a total customisable unit which you can then build tons of strategies around.

Older FE games didn't need an Avatar to have replay value, mostly because of the size of the casts. Quite frankly at this point the Avatars are far more of a detriment to the games than they are a boon story-wise. And like Quintessence said, Robin was only a side character for a small part of the game before he (and Lucina, but she didn't last long) overshadowed Chrom completely.

[Quintessence]

@SaiSymbolic: Yeah, that's how I feel as well. I think that if they want to kee the avatar maybe they can make a new fe with the avatar being a commoner from a neutral kingdom that lives a war between different kingdoms and tries to stop war or something idk.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Quintessence

[Jedi]

Older FE games didn't need an Avatar to have replay value, mostly because of the size of the casts. Quite frankly at this point the Avatars are far more of a detriment to the games than they are a boon story-wise. And like Quintessence said, Robin was only a side character for a small part of the game before he (and Lucina, but she didn't last long) overshadowed Chrom completely.

And this is why any remakes if they decide to do them, will be raising an eyebrow from the people who've played the past games, because they'll likely do what they did in FE12 and have an avatar take center stage and completely overshadow and make the protagonist a figurehead sobbing wreck of a man (See Marth in FE12 after his really good FE11 characterization.)

Lucina doesn't even really get to shine either speaking of her, she's about as relevant to Awakening's plot as Lyn is to Blazing Swords.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Jedi

[Namarid]

I can say this with certainty: the Avatar system isn't going anywhere—at least, for the moment.

I feel like the problem with Avatar characters in FE is that the writers don't want that character to have too little spotlight—because, then what would be the point of having them there? Robin was a good try, honestly. It seems most people are disgruntled because they became the main focus during the second half, when Chrom is the main character. With Fates, they made Corrin the main character, which sort of helped circumvent his stealing spotlight, but, in wanting to keep him in the spotlight, they made all the characters bend over to eat Corrin's dookie.

I agree, I can't see IS removing things such as marriage and the avatar. They just attracted too much of a crowd for them to risk removing it. Not necessarily a bad thing cause it means more FE will be sold.

Like you said how much spotlight the avatar gets is their main problem. Honestly I don't think the avatar needs that much spotlight. Just make them close to the lord, make them a tactician to reflect the player, make them come up with strategies for the lord and by the end of the game make their ending sound like that they remained close to the lord( similar to silas and corrin). This does make for a rather bland character but maybe other facets of their character gets fleshed out with supports. This is what I would like from an avatar.

[HylianTiki]

If anything about Corrin's hazy memory, I can only imagine that he got traumatized by witnessing Sumeragi's death at the hands of Garon (does beg the question of why TF Sumeragi brought him to Cheve in the first place) and being kidnapped by Garon. Psychological trauma can screw with the victim's memories.

To Robin's credit, the circumstances revolving around his own amnesia are clearly explained in Awakening's story.

Point taken, I guess it was really bad but yes that reason why he was there we still don't know lol.

Conquest!Kamui left me forever soured on his character but even in the other routes, he never graduates past "generic shonen anime protagonist with oodles of unwarranted charisma". It really rubs me the wrong way that he has no qualifications for leading the army and he never suffers for fucking up because his siblings will coddle him. In contrast, Robin's relationship with Chrom and the army makes a lot more sense and I enjoy having a tactical-minded person as my avatar because that's what I am, the strategist.

I know exactly what you're talking about, there was the chapter with the Kitsune and I thought "ok, he really is being affected by this" but then Azura was like "It's not your fault, this is the path you chose, people were gonna die no matter what you chose." and I was like,

"Ok but like he is still responsible for this so why are you trying to make him act like he's not?" I think that the plot could have bee done so much better and like.... ugh but anyway. Robin made a lot of sense because you are the strategist. I understand why they didn't bring that back though, but as i said before, if they were gonna make the player the main lord, the should have implemented that differently.

I was left questioning the moral and character integrity of both Ryoma and Xander as a result of this. Why would they just let Samui lead when (especially Xander) knows how little they know about anything.

[Ryas]

Point taken, I guess it was really bad but yes that reason why he was there we still don't know lol.

I know exactly what you're talking about, there was the chapter with the Kitsune and I thought "ok, he really is being affected by this" but then Azura was like "It's not your fault, this is the path you chose, people were gonna die no matter what you chose." and I was like,

"Ok but like he is still responsible for this so why are you trying to make him act like he's not?" I think that the plot could have bee done so much better and like.... ugh but anyway. Robin made a lot of sense because you are the strategist. I understand why they didn't bring that back though, but as i said before, if they were gonna make the player the main lord, the should have implemented that differently.

I was left questioning the moral and character integrity of both Ryoma and Xander as a result of this. Why would they just let Samui lead when (especially Xander) knows how little they know about anything.

"Damn I feel pretty bad about genociding this group of furries that tried to kill us."

"Nah, it's cool, don't worry about it."

[SageHarpuiaJDJ]

Corrin for his gameplay and design.

Robin for his character and 'Time to tip the scales!' will always be the best crit quote.

[HylianTiki]

I agree, I can't see IS removing things such as marriage and the avatar. They just attracted too much of a crowd for them to risk removing it. Not necessarily a bad thing cause it means more FE will be sold.

Like you said how much spotlight the avatar gets is their main problem. Honestly I don't think the avatar needs that much spotlight. Just make them close to the lord, make them a tactician to reflect the player, make them come up with strategies for the lord and by the end of the game make their ending sound like that they remained close to the lord( similar to silas and corrin). This does make for a rather bland character but maybe other facets of their character gets fleshed out with supports. This is what I would like from an avatar.

I think that this could be interesting but the fans are gonna want to be more relevant. I honestly think that the problem of how bland the avatar can be is because the writers leave them intentionally blank so we can fill in our own character traits. THE PROBLEM is that the dialogue is already made for us and so in Corrin's case, they end up saying a lot of things that can contradict what we might believe them to be. I know that in japan their dialogue changes slightly depending on the voice that you pick, but that still doesn't fix the above problem. What I think that they could do, is have the voice you pick affect personality all together and not just how sassy you are.

[Namarid]

I think that this could be interesting but the fans are gonna want to be more relevant. I honestly think that the problem of how bland the avatar can be is because the writers leave them intentionally blank so we can fill in our own character traits. THE PROBLEM is that the dialogue is already made for us and so in Corrin's case, they end up saying a lot of things that can contradict what we might believe them to be. I know that in japan their dialogue changes slightly depending on the voice that you pick, but that still doesn't fix the above problem. What I think that they could do, is have the voice you pick affect personality all together and not just how sassy you are.

I now understand why Azuresen and Quintessence are for avatar removal. Creating an avatar that is important, but not so important that they steal the show could be a tricky thing to do and may lead to more botched ideas leading to more awful stories. It can be done but IS are going to need to step up their game.

Personality selection is a good idea and a step in the right direction,but that will probably be a lot of work to pull off.