Pokémon uPick Mafia - Day 4

[Refa]

Its not about aggressive questioning being bad, its about the context. I read Boron as asking to get a better grasp on the Blitz votes (a mix between "that question was bad" and Blitz Meta) which isn't unreasonable but instead of answering the question, Refa in #108 and #104 strongly dismisses it. I could understand if Refa questioned the question or if they found it scummy, but the way they called it out like that seemed to be instigating something that wasn't there and more hindering a discussion on Blitz votes. Though when i typed that I was under the impression the exchange lasted longer than it did. Rereading, its a pretty short exchange, but it still ribbed me wrong.

If it's about the context, you should have mentioned the context in your previous post instead of just saying "aggressive questioning". I didn't read it as that, I read it as a pointless question that didn't serve to move the game forwards. I had issues with the question and explained it. Like, fair enough if you think my issues were forced (assuming that's what you mean by instigating something that wasn't there) but I don't like how you're misrepping me by saying it hindered a discussion on Blitz. Not only was Blitz discussed in detail beforehand (e.g. nothing Boron asked would have brought anything new to the table), but other people were free to answer while I pursued my own issues.

I don't have much time right now but the worst thing about Blitz right now is that he hasn't come back to defend himself or do anything

Just checked and he hasn't been on since he made that post.

[Paperblade]

okay I have some time yay

The more I think about it the more I think the original Blitz votes were bad. There's 3 possibilities for them fmpov: He was serious, he was joking, he made a typo.

The thing is, if he was serious, what could he possibly have to gain as mafia? Blitz isn't stupid, he's not going to blatantly say "Hey guys how about we not advance the game state." Now, as serious it's possible this was a reaction test, but it seems like kind of a bad one.

The way Prims jumps on him and then defends the wagon unsettles me. Do you think that Blitz's comment was scummy enough to warrant a 5 vote pile up? Don't you think it's weird that so many people took it seriously?

I'm singling out Prims specifically here because I feel like he, more than Gaius and Crysta, had issue with the question itself rather than the general feeling/tone of the post, if that makes sense. Like he did not even consider that it was a typo (whereas I get the impression Gaius and Crysta considered that and foudn it scummy anyway)

Manix's vote was really bad but at the same time I feel like Manix is less likely to think about what other people are thinking than Prims is, if that makes sense. A surface level guy. Also he wasn't vote stacking on Blitz, he was referring to his earlier vote

##Unvote, ##Vote: Prims

[BBM]

I don't think Manix is lazy id he's engaged. 'Wouldn't scum manix be less lazy' is kind of counterintuitive WIFOM IMO.

Manix why is Blitz worse than either Marth or I?

I guess I see Paper's Prims point but I feel like Blitz's one line became a much bigger deal cuz he never came back to dissipate or aggravate the wagon on him with more content posts. It was still RVS at the time that vote was made.

I'm again not getting this argument that Manix is lazy or surface level. Maybe I'm remembering ye olde days and not his recent meta but I feel like Manix when he's engaged tries super hard and analyzes things a lot, sometimes even overanalyzing them.

And I disagree that there wasn't anything to talk about in his post where he defended his laziness.

[Sunwoo]

Okay, I'm reading back through pages 4-8 right now.

##Unvote

##Vote: Lord Gaius

The first part of this post seems a bit over-defensive, like he's trying too hard to explain away what he said was just a simple joke. I also don't like his vote on Blitz too much. Yeah, he piggybacked off Prims' vote, but he also added that it felt like "scum!Blitz all the way" without explaining why. Considering that Blitz had like, two posts by this point (and still does), I think explaining why he feels Blitz is playing to his scum meta is kind of important?

I also disagree with his response to me that it doesn't matter whether he was serious or not. What content was there to analyze at that point anyway? Don't really have any thoughts on his vote on eclipse yet because I have to reread eclipse myself.

Basically, I'm not very fond of his vote on Blitz. But it's his arguing that Blitz is playing to his scum meta that bothers me the most. Partly because it's tacked onto his vote as a side note with no explanation until Paper asks for an explanation, and doesn't even explain it very well. Blitz also has two posts, so I don't even know how he can get scum!Blitz vibes off two posts, one of them an RVS vote.

Crysta's reasoning for voting Blitz, that his two questions seem more like scum!Blitz than town!Blitz, kind of rub me the wrong way. Why does it sound like half-assed scum!Blitz questions as opposed to helpful town!Blitz questions? Neither you nor Gaius are explaining how he's playing similarly to when he was scum as opposed to town, just saying that he feels like it. A more exact explanation would be nice, otherwise the rest of us will have to read back on old games we don't necessarily have time or motivation for.

I think Manix's vote bugs me a bit just because it seems too easy, and because Manix feels like he doesn't have a lot of conviction behind it either. So I'm not completely happy with his content, but I think he was also at a weird time when he posted so I'm willing to wait for him to get back and say more stuff.

[Paperblade]

because his play this game is lazy/surface level? I'm not dismissing what he's saying as "Oh Manix being himself" since I haven't played with him in a long time, but I definitely feel like he has done things like that as town

I also feel like as mafia he wouldn't jump on the wagon in such a way, but maybe that's just me reading Blitz's quote as obviously not a serious thing with no typos that would change intent

[Grace]

Manix why is Blitz worse than either Marth or I?

i forgot to unvote last night because i was tired (and i actually told myself to, then promptly forgot)

##Unvote

like honestly the fact that blitz hasn't come back is concerning, but whatever that can be dealt with. slot is viggable probably.

as for who i would vote... with what i've formulated i want this for now

##Vote: Marth

i think trying to weasel around not making a rvs case is kinda silly and reads as him not wanting a lot of attention on his slot. which as town, is not exactly what should be an issue

[Paperblade]

tbh I like the overdefensive argument more than the stuff surrounding blitz wrt Gaius

I don't think Gaius makes the "scumblitz vibes" post with no explanation especially when he has an explanation for his thoughts to give me not 20 minutes later

[Grace]

more thoughts later-ish probably maybe. it's d1 and i've reached the point in my meta where i just don't hugely care about d1 as much bc mafia is hard without flips

[Crysta]

@Boron: i feel i probably conveyed myself better in this post which was actually more directed at you because you expressed interest in the votes on the wagon. if i recall correctly i think i was actually the first one to go "yo that's probably a typo cuz it makes no sense otherwise" because his question was directed at me.

i could repeat myself more but i don't really wanna

not actually terribly bothered by eclipse giving me flak for my questions nor am i bothered by her jumble of nullreads (cuz it's D1); the one point i don't like may be the impression i get that she felt compelled to vote someone on the wagon and the questions were an easy target. i don't think scum!eclipse would be "take it or leave it" and "role reasons!" though and that's countering my scruples on that; it's pretty blatant.

gaius is really aggressive but i can still kind of see where he's going with his thought process even if i'm not drawing the same conclusion wrt eclipse

And I disagree that there wasn't anything to talk about in his post where he defended his laziness.

Like what? he was the last vote on the wagon, blitz's post wasn't really oozing with content, and three other people had chimed in already. i'm not sure what more he could have added. and how do you feel about his content since then now that it's expanded?

[Crysta]

actually axe that question because i'm dumb and thought you were talking about the initial blitz wagon and the post you were referring to is actually on this page

go reading comprehension

[Sunwoo]

@Boron: i feel i probably conveyed myself better in this post which was actually more directed at you because you expressed interest in the votes on the wagon. if i recall correctly i think i was actually the first one to go "yo that's probably a typo cuz it makes no sense otherwise" because his question was directed at me.

Read back on the linked post, but I'm still not really feeling it. I don't see how it's "empty" compared to town!Blitz's questions (such as how do you think town!Blitz would phrase the same questions or if he'd even ask them), and just because you can't see where Blitz's questions may lead doesn't mean he can't do something with those answers.

I don't think Gaius makes the "scumblitz vibes" post with no explanation especially when he has an explanation for his thoughts to give me not 20 minutes later

I feel like Gaius's explanation for "scum!Blitz vibes" still feels dodgy. "Vibes" aren't enough when you don't explain them, and I'm not sure how I feel about "two people came to the same conclusion so that means there's something". I can just as easily point to C9++ mafia where both Manix and I were certain BBM was playing to his scum meta and BBM flipped town. And again, I still don't see how anyone can get any sort of meta from two posts. One of them was an RVS post, at that.

[Crysta]

on manix's case i can agree with marth's rvs prod not really advancing the game but it actually stands in sharp contrast to his last scum rvs where he was really aggressive in rvs and i threw him under the bus for it. i thought his eclipse case is ok because it asks the same questions that initially went through my head (namely why?) i wish she didn't kind of shut him down though.

i'm still not feeling bbm that much right now since i think attacking laziness is actually lazy and it doesn't look like he made any actual comment on marth's new content before swapping

[ZoesMad]

@Boron: Scum Blitz asks weak questions and doesn't follow up with anything about them, and his post triggered that for me. Can't really argue against over defensiveness, just thought it was a dumb thing to be cased on. Also I still stand by his seriousness not

mattering because I don't see that post as a post town would be making regardless of what the specific intent was, feel free to interpret it differently.

Boron feels like she's just pressuring me and Crysta and Manix to have someone to pressure like someone else I just cased. Like she says (paraphrase) "why half ass scum blitz questions instead of helpful town questions?" Did you read the questions, because j don't know what you find that's useful in there. Also do you think Blitz is town getting wagoned by scum or what?

@Paper: could you point towards where Prims defended the wagon because otherwise it's not really his fault that a bunch of people hopped on the wagon. I don't really have a problem with the logic in 152 Paragraph 4, but have better targets to pursue atm.

More to come soon on other stuff that happened.

[Crysta]

@Boron: If he can then he should

[ZoesMad]

Also I gave example of game where I thought Blitz was playing similarly as scum AND explained in more depth so like what more do you want. Sure don't lynch someone on meta alone but Blitz still hasn't defended himself and there were 0 better cases at the time.

[Sunwoo]

@Boron: Scum Blitz asks weak questions and doesn't follow up with anything about them, and his post triggered that for me. Can't really argue against over defensiveness, just thought it was a dumb thing to be cased on. Also I still stand by his seriousness not

mattering because I don't see that post as a post town would be making regardless of what the specific intent was, feel free to interpret it differently.

Boron feels like she's just pressuring me and Crysta and Manix to have someone to pressure like someone else I just cased. Like she says (paraphrase) "why half ass scum blitz questions instead of helpful town questions?" Did you read the questions, because j don't know what you find that's useful in there. Also do you think Blitz is town getting wagoned by scum or what?

I read Blitz's questions, and it doesn't matter whether I think there's anything useful in there because Blitz is the one who has to make something useful with them. I haven't played with Blitz in a while, but I am familiar enough with his questions. The only mark I have against Blitz right now is that he hasn't come back to address any of this, but he hasn't been online at all since his previous post at all, so I assume something's keeping him away.

I also sense over-defensiveness coming from you right now in your second paragraph and trying to discredit me. "Oh, she doesn't really have any basis, she just wants to pressure someone". Also, I think you at the very least could've been the scum on Blitz's wagon. My feelings towards Manix are more meta than anything, and if he plays anything like he used to I should have a definitive opinion of him further on. Don't have an issue with Prims yet, but he too needs to get back here.

Also I gave example of game where I thought Blitz was playing similarly as scum AND explained in more depth so like what more do you want. Sure don't lynch someone on meta alone but Blitz still hasn't defended himself and there were 0 better cases at the time.

1) I refuse to read any past games just so I can get an idea of what you're saying about Blitz's meta. I don't have the time or the motivation, and if you need to say "go reread this old game that may be pages upon pages long" to make a point … you're not doing a very good job of it.

2) Your in-depth explanation didn't come up until literally now, so what more do I want? How about that explanation several hours earlier? And if you're talking about earlier explanations, those were hardly in-depth at all.

[Refa]

Haven't analyzed anything on pages 8 and 9 yet because I'm kind of busy ATM and just wanted to get out what I already had instead of sitting on it for forever (probably changing my vote after I have the time to do so).

The wagon building so fast feels like everyone's eager to do SOMETHING, and Blitz provided that SOMETHING. I don't have any strong feelings about Prims' vote, but I don't like how quickly Gaius/Crysta/Manix sheep it. Of the three, I feel the least bad about Manix, since apparently he's not above vote-stacking. Iris' vote reads like RVS, so meh. Paperblade's inaction feels like he's trying to separate himself from the growing wagon, and ending with "sounds like he's joking", which reads null to me. Boron's also in the same boat, though I'm slightly less wary of her due to the fact that she managed to create an associative read with Refa (which I may use later).

What makes Crysta worse than LG? I can get why her vote could be considered hypocritical but that's not scummy.

Your wording on Paperblade and Boron sounds like it came from a scum read (especially the italicized bits) but you have them listed as null and slightly better than null. That bothers me because your issues with them are stronger than your issues with Crysta but you voted her anyways.

That said, ##Unvote ##Vote: eclipse

Why is Crysta's vote worse than Gaius'? The question needn't necessarily be pointless(NINJA'D LOL, she totally doesn't think its pointless), and if it is, why is it scummy from her end?

My initial problem with your RVS actions was that you blatantly shitposted and were ok with it, which I can't see from town!eclipse, since she has a particular view of town behaviour which includes promoting discussion wrt scumhunting. If you shitpost and leave it open for people to either break out of RVS or continue shitposting, how will we ever begin to generate meaningful scumhunting discussion by shitposting? This feels like a classic case of scum taking refuge in audacity and passing their actions off as a joke early in the game.

Aaaaaaaaaaand I just remembered that you asked the exact same question FML.

I'm fine with the rest of your case but Eclipse's shitposting wasn't scummy. It happened before there was any actual content and it's not Eclipse's job to break the game out of RVS. Admittedly, I don't really remember Eclipse's town meta enough to say anything about that portion but yeah.

I was going to case BBM for what strawman said and then he said that he didn't read my RVS vote properly, lol. My only other problem with him is that he found a weird joke reason to pile a vote on to Gaius which felt very unnecessary as town but makes sense as scum passing off their votes as jokes. Also, if you think there is scum on the Blitz wagon, who do you think is most likely to be scum and why?

I don't get your issues with BBM. If scum's goal is to blend in and lynch town, how does making an RVS vote change on a not leading wagon accomplish either of those things?

(I know I ignored a large amount of your content but that's because I don't really have any issue with it nor do I have anything to add to it)

[Refa]

Actually no, that's dumb.

##Unvote

##Vote: Eclipse

Okay, now I'm leaving.

[Paperblade]

Gaius:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=63829&page=5#entry4391547

This post felt dismissive, since I interpreted the tone as being sort of rhetorical in that Prims thinks there IS nothing wrong with it, without looking at the specifics of the votes

Refa, if eclipse is mafia, what do you make of her voting Crysta over Boron or myself?

Boron, I'm reading your posts but I'm having trouble connecting why Gaius is mafia for these things

[BBM]

@Crysta- I switched because I thought that Marth's defence was ok, and half my case was based on me misreading.

I didn't comment on Marth's other content because I thought it was ok and I was starting to feel worse about Manix. But tbh I feel like I'm not reading anything correctly this game (or maybe just not Marth's posts) the first two times around, because I reread Marth's post that Refa quoted because of Crysta's question and his eclipse case is kind of bad. The RVS thing is just hugely overblown; eclipse was shitposting at a time when the most serious vote in the game was my vote on Prims. Linking it to refuge in audacity feels like him trying to bolster the case with Fancy Terminology even though it's not at all a case of refuge in audacity. Why does scum eclipse even need to shitpost in RVS if she doesn't want to?

The other part of people's eclipse case is why she voted Crysta over Gaius, and I would have done the same thing between the two. I'll wait for eclipse to answer before giving my thoughts on that though.

yolo ##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth come at me

I still expect more from Manix. My point was like... yes, Manix can be lazy and surface level, but only when he's not engaged. And I feel like Manix is at the point of his mafia career where he's normally less engaged when he's scum. I know how that stage feels; I'm there too, Prims is there, and Paperblade has probably been there since before I started playing mafia. shrug. I don't think Marth and Manix are buddies though.

I haven't really read Boron's Gaius case tbh. Gaius feels town and Boron's posts are too long for me.

yolo ##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth come at me

[Refa]

I don't think Eclipse consciously was like "I'm aiming to vote Crysta over Paperblade/Boron", it's more that it shows a lack of interest in her own reads where she's not really reexamining her reads relative to each other (again, wording is hard but you should get the gist of what I'm saying here).

But that's not the fun answer, it's obviously because she didn't want to bus her scum buddies.

[Bluedoom]

@Refa: Its not eclipse's job to break out of RVS, but telling Iris that she had the option of continuing RVS via shitposting tells me that she doesn't care about other players doing it too. This is really heavy on the meta and I could give examples but I don't think you'll be interested in reading them.

Wrt BBM: Actually the vote tied it with the Crysta wagon to become the one with the highest number of votes. I guess you're right about it being counterintuitive since that's kinda bad with blending in but I have seen scum, including myself, pass off those votes as jokes before. This isn't a point I'm currently pushing anyway, I haven't had problems with BBM otherwise.

@Manix: I'm going to reverse BBM's question and ask you: Why are BBM and I worse than Blitz? All of your scumreads so far have been based off of RVS actions, and it feels like you're ignoring the rest of the content that BBM and I have posted. What is it that you don't get about the eclipse cases?

I don't agree with Boron's case on Gaius but I don't think she's scum for it. Gaius' defending himself for his D1 jokepost is whatever, since Crysta was actually scumreading him for it, so its not like it came out of nowhere. He also explained the meta stuff and tbh if she doesn't want to read the game examples he's given for the meta analysis, then it isn't something he can defend against. She argues that he could've posted the meta stuff earlier but he literally did that the post after his vote so it sounds like an exaggeration.

HOWEVER, I expect Scum!Boron to make a wallpost with reads on multiple players for vague reasons, kinda like what she did in Kirby 2. This feels more like her play from FE9, and I think she has had solid conviction in the course of action that she has taken so far.

@Gaius: You have problems with Boron pressuring you for the sake of it. But do you think she's scum for it? Do you think its plausible for town!Boron to take this course of action as well?

[Sunwoo]

Boron, I'm reading your posts but I'm having trouble connecting why Gaius is mafia for these things

Stuff regarding Blitz: it feels like an easy vote, and his quick dismissal of whether Blitz's question was serious or joking or a typo doesn't sit well with me because it reads like someone trying to stay on their target without actually thinking about scum intent. I also don't like how he took so long to come up with a solid explanation for why Blitz felt like scum, as opposed to "I get similar vibes from a previous scum game" but not really explaining it. It feels like he's trying to avoid committing himself to an explanation, which is something scum would do.

Stuff regarding being over defensive: only Crysta really poked at his introduction to Iris (and only after Refa poked her for it), so the whole "I was just joking and people are over thinking it" feels disproportionately defensive. Also, his post about how I'm pressuring him and Crysta and Manix only looks like I'm doing it to have someone to pressure comes off as defensive and dismissive of my case, and like he's trying to dissuade me from picking at him by trying to cast shade on me. Again, something scum do.

I haven't really read Boron's Gaius case tbh. Gaius feels town and Boron's posts are too long for me.

I don't mind if you feel Gaius is town, but way to make my motivation shot ;/

[BBM]

paper, marth, why do you guys think people are putting in so much effort thinking about their RVS posts and votes? If anything scum put a little more effort at that stage because they're more self-conscious. There are two types of votes at that stage- total jokes and something that's slightly bothersome that you sort of stretch to get things going.

[Bluedoom]

@BBM: You voted me for not voting eclipse earlier. It should be clear that had I voted her earlier I would have used the shitposting case since that part is definitely related to my RVS question. Keeping this in mind, do you think scum!me avoids doing this earlier only to bring up the same thing later anyway? I could've voted her for those reasons and avoided the attention that I'd get by calling her out and not voting her.