Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[LuxSpes]

8 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

I wouldn’t mind if they never came back honestly.

I didn’t think it was possible to create so much cancer in the process of grinding for ranking feathers.

Even as a feather farming event and disregarding all the "drama" that springs from it, I find it annoying.

I hate that I need to play the mode every 30 minutes or need to check constantly for bonus just to ensure a good ranking. TT are much better in that aspect since I can do multiple runs to drain my stamina at the start of the day and then do a run whenever I have time during the day, which means I can never 'miss' a chance to get points unless I let my stamina fully recharge.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

9 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

Even as a feather farming event and disregarding all the "drama" that springs from it, I find it annoying.

I hate that I need to play the mode every 30 minutes or need to check constantly for bonus just to ensure a good ranking. TT are much better in that aspect since I can do multiple runs to drain my stamina at the start of the day and then do a run whenever I have time during the day, which means I can never 'miss' a chance to get points unless I let my stamina fully recharge.

fuck that part in particular

[LuxSpes]

8 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

fuck that part in particular

Doesn't help that the majority of them happen at the start of a round, which is in the dead of night in my timezone.

[Ice Dragon]

43 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Tier lists should take into account the fact that there are things that 2 move melee units simply can't do, like the fact that there are things that 1 move melee units simply can't do. A 2 move melee unit cannot: Def Ploy a ranged unit without being hit, and then attack the unit next to said ranged unit, because that'll take 3 movement points. (A unit in front of said ranged unit is hittable, of course.)

You can't just go: Oh, if we do X always then Y's weakness in Z isn't relevant, therefore we should pretend we're always doing X. Sometimes you need to do A, B, or C rather than X. The fact that a certain lineup can't do A, B, and C, and therefore needs to always do X isn't an advantage.

When there are things that your units cannot do, you change your play style to accommodate those limitations. There is no reason to play the same way when using cavalry as when using infantry, fliers, or armors.

Just because we can use X to mitigate weakness Z doesn't mean we always have to use X in case of Z or even that Z is always present. That's the point of perfect play. If X isn't the correct move, you use A, B, C, or even some clever variant of X.

I personally think you are putting far more weight to mobility than it deserves to have. The strengths and weaknesses of mobility do need to be considered, but the weaknesses of each one can be mitigated by the player by adapting their play style and strategy to the units they are using.

Also, trees (and water) blocking a cavalry Reposition is by far the most frustrating part of using cavalry for me and often enough completely prevents me from performing a hit and run snipe that I want to do. I see no difference between this situation and not being able to reach an opponent to attack at all. Both are an error on the player's end of the phone screen.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Regarding Drive Atk: Now you're falling into the 'C-slot is free' trap again. The cost of Def Ploy isn't to the unit itself---it's to their allies. Def Ploy on Est is a Hone Atk that can't be in that slot, mean every single one of her allies now gets less buffs. Def Ploy on S!Corrin is the same way, except S!Corrin is one of the people you want to be buffed, so you lose less giving Def Ploy to her.

Def Ploy on Est is roughly equivalent to Hone Atk with a different means of activating its effect and stacks with any instances of Hone Atk that are already in your party.

The cost of Def Ploy isn't to the units' allies, it's to the units' magic damage allies, which cannot be assumed to not have the buffs they are looking for from the other two members of your team. Your team is four members, not two. One of the assumptions of the tier list is that every single unit on your team is already running the (simple) buffs that your team needs to function because those buffs work identically regardless of who is using it.

Furthermore, you cannot assume that there is a Spring Corrin (or any other unit) on your team providing Def Ploy support when evaluating any character other than Spring Corrin (or whatever other character you're evaluating that is running Def Ploy).

The reason why Spring Corrin or Leo or whoever doesn't have their ranking boosted by Def Ploy is because Def Ploy doesn't help Spring Corrin or Leo themselves and is therefore not a significant improvement over Hone Atk.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

Yes, the fact that you're cherry-picking teammates for Est to deliberately make Def Ploy a less desirable option.

If Est doesn't fit in your team, Est doesn't fit in your team. You can't rank a character F-tier because you don't have the character and therefore can't use them, and you can't rank a character F-tier because your team doesn't need the character's role. Unless the rating criteria of the tier list includes how well a character does in a team that doesn't need Est's role, which this tier list surely doesn't.

 

[DefaultBeep]

I kinda hope they keep doing the mini Tempest Trials instead of the Voting Gauntlet. It would mean a lot of Tempest Trials, but that's normally when I get my most enjoyment out of the game anyway, and the mini ones are short enough to avoid most of the burnout that comes with the normal version.

[EricaofRenais]

3 minutes ago, DefaultBeep said:

I kinda hope they keep doing the mini Tempest Trials instead of the Voting Gauntlet. It would mean a lot of Tempest Trials, but that's normally when I get my most enjoyment out of the game anyway, and the mini ones are short enough to avoid most of the burnout that comes with the normal version.

This would be perfect because mini TT are fun and you can do them when you have time, but VG is just annoying an not worth the feathers.

[DarkLordIvy]

After the sheer amount of bad blood the last gauntlet generated I also really hope they just ax it entirely, but I also really hope they replace it with or introduce another mode where you get to use other people’s units. Getting to mess around with units I don’t have or units that people have put a lot of love into was always my favorite part of the gauntlets. 

[DefaultBeep]

8 minutes ago, EricaofRenais said:

This would be perfect because mini TT are fun and you can do them when you have time, but VG is just annoying an not worth the feathers.

Exactly. I wouldn't mind the Voting Gauntlet if they did some serious retooling of how it works, since it is nice to have a mode where friends are worth more than a handful of feathers a day, but as-is it's just not very good.

[Troykv]

Just seeing this discussion about Leo, Armors and Est Ploy...

What is the best nature for Leo? XD (Specially for the things that Deh say it makes him S+ Tier in Horse Emblem).

[Quintessence]

I kinda want a multiplayer online mode where you battle dragons or strong villains with other people around the world, choosing a single unit to play a role in the team or something like Mobius FF Ring of Braves

[Othin]

Seems the September event schedule was posted on September 4, so hopefully we can expect an October one soon.

[MrSmokestack]

1 hour ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

They must still be salty about Lyn vs Camilla...

There’s probably a bigger problem if a character gets two upset wins in a row, in two gauntlets in a row.

Aside from the drama, which makes browsing the forums less enjoyable, opening up FEH every 30 mins to do a match isn’t flexible...like at all.

Lux put it better:

1 hour ago, LuxSpes said:

I hate that I need to play the mode every 30 minutes or need to check constantly for bonus just to ensure a good ranking. TT are much better in that aspect since I can do multiple runs to drain my stamina at the start of the day and then do a run whenever I have time during the day, which means I can never 'miss' a chance to get points unless I let my stamina fully recharge.

 

52 minutes ago, DefaultBeep said:

I kinda hope they keep doing the mini Tempest Trials instead of the Voting Gauntlet. It would mean a lot of Tempest Trials, but that's normally when I get my most enjoyment out of the game anyway, and the mini ones are short enough to avoid most of the burnout that comes with the normal version.

I keep saying this but the Tempest Trial Mini was great and I hope IS does more of these.

[Rezzy]

31 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Just seeing this discussion about Leo, Armors and Est Ploy...

What is the best nature for Leo? XD (Specially for the things that Deh say it makes him S+ Tier in Horse Emblem).

+Atk is generally the best nature.  Speed is weird.  EIther go for -Spd, since it's so low anyway, or hope for +Spd, which together with Fury/L&D, Hone Cavalry, and maybe a Goad Cavalry can bring his Speed to decent levels.  For Banes, anything that's not -Atk is good on Leo.

46 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

After the sheer amount of bad blood the last gauntlet generated I also really hope they just ax it entirely, but I also really hope they replace it with or introduce another mode where you get to use other people’s units. Getting to mess around with units I don’t have or units that people have put a lot of love into was always my favorite part of the gauntlets. 

 

5 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

There’s probably a bigger problem if a character gets two upset wins in a row, in two gauntlets in a row.

Aside from the drama, which makes browsing the forums less enjoyable, opening up FEH every 30 mins to do a match isn’t flexible...like at all.

Lux put it better:

 

I keep saying this but the Tempest Trial Mini was great and I hope IS does more of these.

I too loved the Mini Tempest.  It's the second week of Tempests where I tend to get burnt out, and winning rewards twice as fast is wonderful.

I thought maybe we could have an Assault or Tempest where we put together teams using a pool of our friends' units.  Using Friend units was the most enjoyable part of Gauntlets.

[Othin]

10 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I thought maybe we could have an Assault or Tempest where we put together teams using a pool of our friends' units.  Using Friend units was the most enjoyable part of Gauntlets.

I really like this idea.

[Sunwoo]

My Leo is +atk -spd. Although I haven't used him much lately, he's good at baiting mages due to his respectable resistance. Alas, he's still no Sanaki in terms of being a massive res tank, although it helps that mine is +res.

[Othin]

We'll probably have the next month's schedule announced in the next day and a half, by the time Clarisse's GHB revival ends, to continue getting a GHB or BHB each week. If they keep alternating GHB revivals with new maps, and keep balancing between first revivals and second revivals, we should get a schedule along the lines of this:

• 10/4-10/11: Bound Hero Battle: Luke and Roderick
• 10/11-10/18: Grand Hero Battle Revival: Ursula
• 10/18-10/25: Grand Hero Battle: Arvis
• 10/25-11/1: Grand Hero Battle Revival: Xander

We'll probably get the 1.8 update with Sacred Seals functionality at around 10/7 and the FE4 banner around 10/14, probably accompanied by another log-in bonus. Now that they're down to just 13 orbs total, they seem to be showing up with every banner, which is nice. Hard to say anything about the next Voting Gauntlet or TT Mini other than that they won't start before 1.8 launches, but I'm guessing we'll get a TT Mini at some point with the return of Tobin and Phantom Speed. Who knows about Voting Gauntlets, though. It seems like a lot of people wouldn't mind if they were dropped entirely.

[DarkLordIvy]

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

I thought maybe we could have an Assault or Tempest where we put together teams using a pool of our friends' units.  Using Friend units was the most enjoyable part of Gauntlets.

Yes yes yes!

My dream would be a tempest like event where you use one of your own units, one friend unit you get to pick, one random friend unit, and one random non-friend unit. Not sure how balanced that would be in practice, but it does sound fun to me. 

[MrSmokestack]

2 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

Yes yes yes!

My dream would be a tempest like event where you use one of your own units, one friend unit you get to pick, one random friend unit, and one random non-friend unit. Not sure how balanced that would be in practice, but it does sound fun to me. 

6 man Infernal Tempest with Warriors reinforcements and superbosses

The true endgame content we’ve all been waiting for

[DarkLordIvy]

6 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

6 man Infernal Tempest with Warriors reinforcements and superbosses

The true endgame content we’ve all been waiting for

Let me at em’

[Rezzy]

6 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

Yes yes yes!

My dream would be a tempest like event where you use one of your own units, one friend unit you get to pick, one random friend unit, and one random non-friend unit. Not sure how balanced that would be in practice, but it does sound fun to me. 

That would be cool.  They could have it where you start with a team of four and any time a unit gets KOd, you get a replacement from your Friend List, then get a score depending on how well you did.  I'd prefer if it was a reward system like Tempest where you aren't penalized by anything other than time and Stamina by doing poorly and enough grinding could get you all the rewards.

3 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

6 man Infernal Tempest with Warriors reinforcements and superbosses

The true endgame content we’ve all been waiting for

I would be down for this.

[DehNutCase]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Def Ploy on Est is roughly equivalent to Hone Atk with a different means of activating its effect and stacks with any instances of Hone Atk that are already in your party.

The cost of Def Ploy isn't to the units' allies, it's to the units' magic damage allies, which cannot be assumed to not have the buffs they are looking for from the other two members of your team. Your team is four members, not two. One of the assumptions of the tier list is that every single unit on your team is already running the (simple) buffs that your team needs to function because those buffs work identically regardless of who is using it.

Furthermore, you cannot assume that there is a Spring Corrin (or any other unit) on your team providing Def Ploy support when evaluating any character other than Spring Corrin (or whatever other character you're evaluating that is running Def Ploy).

The reason why Spring Corrin or Leo or whoever doesn't have their ranking boosted by Def Ploy is because Def Ploy doesn't help Spring Corrin or Leo themselves and is therefore not a significant improvement over Hone Atk.

Def Ploy has 3 costs:

Positioning requirement (easier than Threaten, fortunately, so not completely useless---B!Ike is basically the only one who can easily pay the positioning requirement of Threaten, and that's because Urvan is freakishly good)

C-slot requirement

Resistance requirement

Of those, Est only pays the resistance requirement well.

 

She's worse at positioning because, even though she can reach the people she ploy better because she can be as close to the front lines as possible, other people have greater reach, so they neither need to be as close as possible to reach and have better spots to stand in if they don't need to hit the person they ployed.

The C-slot requirements hits Est hard because she's not a tome user. Tome user C-slots cost less than other unit's C-slots because buff skills don't buff the owner, meaning the person who benefits the most from buffs pay the least in skill-slot costs for carrying not carrying a buff skill.

Resistance requirement is okay, seeing how Est has 32 base Res, and DB 3 is fairly good since Est can't reasonably expect to survive a counter regardless (meaning no point to fishing for x4 hits---Cordelia being bulkier than DB3 Est on the physical side even after L&D hurts a lot here).

You skip over the positioning requirement because apparently 'it's on Est so positioning is free' is your logic. No, the logic is that 'It's on Est so at best it's an extra movement point.' Ranged and Cavalry all have the same positioning even if they're always one square behind Est, which is an utterly ridiculous situation, it means they have the same reach even if they're ploying for a 2 range melee (who has to stand as close to the threat line as possible), and better reach if they aren't. Range Cavalry, who are the best wielders, have better reach even when they're ploying for a 2 range melee. Using ploy for yourself is at most a +1 square advantage, something having range or a horse matches, and a range horse surpasses, and part of the reason you say ploy is good is that you don't always ploy for yourself. (I have no idea why you discount the reach requirement when Est isn't ploying for herself, what if she has to ploy for another 2 range melee? Now she's 1 square behind the threat line and can't hit anyone without some kind of mobility skill.)

Further, you say there's no reason to boost Leo or S!Corrin for Def Ploy because they don't boost the unit themselves, and forget that Def Ploy is a bloody SUPPORT SKILL.

IT BOOSTS THEIR SUPPORT RATING.

Not really, because Hone Type is flat out better, but not dumpstering your support rating just to boost offenses is basically boosting support relative to the crap Est goes through. That said, it should boost their tier list rating on this stupid list because Cavalry don't consider Hone or Fort type when it comes to rating how good they are at supporting the team, meaning Hone Atk was the best they had, and now they have Def Ploy. (Which, mind, I wouldn't usually run over Hone Atk anyway, but this list overvalues Def Ploy like crazy.)

There's a bloody reason my unit rating is Offense/Bulk/Counter-kill/Mobility/Support, being able to support matters. There's a bloody reason I don't rate dancers shit tier just because they're 2 move melee with subpar stat spreads before the current banners arrived. Any minors gains Est gets in offenses (which are really minor, since 5 speed is, after all, better than 1 Atk, 5 def, 5 res, even on a brave user, especially considering her crappy stat distribution) are more than canceled out by the fact that Est's support rating got dumpstered for running Def Ploy over Hone Type.

 

The reason I say Est doesn't deserve the tier boost is that Def Ploy doesn't boost her offenses at all. A good support unit, which Est is not, can be expected to provide Def Ploy whenever it's needed, because there are some seriously res heavy ranged/cavalry/ranged-cavalry units out there, who can easily drop a ploy and continue to do their thing afterwards. (Leo, Olwen, Ursula have 30, Cecilia 29, and Bow Lyn 28---yeah, they're less than Est's 32, but these are all ranged horses, ranged or horses has a fair number with comparable or better res, and, unlike Est, ranged units actually use their res to counter-kill mages---Sonya and Katarina are the two that come to mind) Maybe the reason you think Def Ploy isn't reliable because you keep it on some really shitty users of Def Ploy.

2 Move Melee is only better than armors at using Def Ploy, I'll even draw a picture to show how ridiculous their reach is:

Est:

 

4 reach unit:

 

Ranged Cavalry:

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

When there are things that your units cannot do, you change your play style to accommodate those limitations. There is no reason to play the same way when using cavalry as when using infantry, fliers, or armors.

Just because we can use X to mitigate weakness Z doesn't mean we always have to use X in case of Z or even that Z is always present. That's the point of perfect play. If X isn't the correct move, you use A, B, C, or even some clever variant of X.

I personally think you are putting far more weight to mobility than it deserves to have. The strengths and weaknesses of mobility do need to be considered, but the weaknesses of each one can be mitigated by the player by adapting their play style and strategy to the units they are using.

Also, trees (and water) blocking a cavalry Reposition is by far the most frustrating part of using cavalry for me and often enough completely prevents me from performing a hit and run snipe that I want to do. I see no difference between this situation and not being able to reach an opponent to attack at all. Both are an error on the player's end of the phone screen.

That forest blocking cavalry reposition thing is fair (I do usually run a single flier for gaps like that), but the irony of cavalry is that they need less repositions in general because they have more move, so a team with cavalry gets blocked less by forests simply because their positioning is better. The only reason I rate cavalry reposition higher than flier reposition (they're both very good, mind), is that my teams carry infantry very often, and Cavalry repositions are a better fit to drag infantry around---because cavalry have near identical pathing compared to infantry, they just move through it 50% faster. I can see flying repositions being better if you run a heavy flier team, though.

My main point about using X to mitigate Z isn't that you shouldn't use X, it's that you had to use X. Any option you don't have is a demerit. Mind, if you only care about how good a unit is at doing their own jobs then we can ignore this point, since I rate units not only on how good they are at what they do, but also how many things they can do.

This is why, for example, I don't rate B!Lyn S+ tier even though she's the definition of perfect offensive unit: Near perfect matchups, highest possible mobility and reach, excellent support ability in cavalry reposition and Type buff acces---the problem is that she can only be a perfect offensive unit (if we ignore, for the moment, her niche of counter-killing mages thanks to her Prf), she's basically the best at what she does, but she can't do everything, unlike Reinhardt who's both the best at what he does and can do basically everything a unit can do short of dancing, flying, or galeforcing.

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Def Ploy on Est is roughly equivalent to Hone Atk with a different means of activating its effect and stacks with any instances of Hone Atk that are already in your party.

The cost of Def Ploy isn't to the units' allies, it's to the units' magic damage allies, which cannot be assumed to not have the buffs they are looking for from the other two members of your team. Your team is four members, not two. One of the assumptions of the tier list is that every single unit on your team is already running the (simple) buffs that your team needs to function because those buffs work identically regardless of who is using it.

On Est it's more like Rally attack---if she's helping someone else with it, particularly another 2 move melee, her positioning suffers a lot, often to the point of not getting to use her unit-turn to attack.

 

The magic damage allies thing is fair.

The buff assumption thing... isn't. Est is one of those 4 units on the team, 4 - 1 = 3. You can't just treat Est's C-slot as free because 'someone else will handle it.'

There's just so many things wrong with Est carrying Def Ploy:

She can't pay the positioning cost well, her magical teammates don't want her to be carrying def ploy (because they would much rather carry it instead, having both a use for res and better positioning), and her unit type doesn't use resistance well.

2 move melee with a brave weapon wants Atk > Spd > Hp = Def > Res, because Atk is huge, speed is good, and hp and def helps survive counters, whereas mages usually go for Atk = Spd > Hp = Res > Def, Atk and Spd both nearly equally valuable because Atk hits diminishing returns from -blade giving so much of it, hp is for dodging and using panic ploy, res is for fighting other mages (and, in this case, using Def Ploy), and def is more or less strictly worse than hp.

 

Although I will admit that, under the rules where we have invisible units constantly providing Hone Atk and Hone Spd, Def Ploy is, in fact, free. (I guess my real issue is that the rules are idiotic rather than your reasoning being wrong---if buffs are assumed but ploy isn't. But my god that's a stupid way to go about it, it doesn't matter who pays the positioning, C-slot, or resistance costs for Def Ploy, just like it doesn't matter who's carrying Hone or Fort, because someone is paying the costs for said skills anyway---it's just that we assume Hones are free for Ploys aren't, holy bloody hell, meaning Est's Ploy is discounted since she pays the Res cost easily and we can assume a mobility discount, seeing how C-slots are free.)

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yes, the fact that you're cherry-picking teammates for Est to deliberately make Def Ploy a less desirable option.

If Est doesn't fit in your team, Est doesn't fit in your team. You can't rank a character F-tier because you don't have the character and therefore can't use them, and you can't rank a character F-tier because your team doesn't need the character's role. Unless the rating criteria of the tier list includes how well a character does in a team that doesn't need Est's role, which this tier list surely doesn't.

On any team with a mage the mage would prefer to be carrying Def Ploy, and mages are the strongest unit type currently. (C-slot cost)

Any team with a ranged or cavalry unit with high res would prefer the 4 reach unit to be carrying Def Ploy, because they pay the positioning cost easier. (Positioning cost)

Any team where Est is the best carrier is a team with some seriously Def heavy units, for melee that's fine, for ranged units it's just bloody weird. (This is because ranged units' stat priority is more like Atk = Spd > Hp = Res > Def compared to the typical melee's Atk > Spd > Hp = Def > Res, Res is middle of the road for them, unlike for melees who want to dump as much of it as possible.) (Resistance cost)

It's not about cherry picking, it's just that melee stat priorities, positioning ability, and C-slot preference (this is more like: everyone but mages slightly prefer to run buffs because mages want buffs, it's not a huge bias, but it's there in any team with mages) run counter to what a good carrier of Def Ploy is:

Someone with high positioning ability, resistance, and not not a mage (that is, a mage).

 

I'm not saying Est can't carry Def Ploy, I'm saying that other units are better at carrying Def Ploy, meaning they should rise more because of the existence of Def Ploy than Est.

Edited October 2, 2017 by DehNutCase

[property of nuvelle]

So uh... Any idea for the next skill banner?

[DefaultBeep]

3 minutes ago, KongDude said:

So uh... Any idea for the next skill banner?

-Owl banner.

It has to happen eventually.

i hope

[property of nuvelle]

57 minutes ago, DefaultBeep said:

-Owl banner.

It has to happen eventually.

i hope

I'd go for red I guess.

[Hilda]

I am not sure why we are discussing Positioning for Def Ploy, when you can manipulate the AI and cherry pick and spread the Eneyms on the Map around and kill them one by one.
Positioning depends entirely on:
-Starting Position
-The Map itself
-Unit Range (which comes in handy or not depending on the Map) and movement type
-Team composition with Positioning Assists.
So all in all the positioning Discussion is effectivly moot.