Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[Vaximillian]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't think my guess that it's a corruption of the Latin "Redire" is totally off, since Redire means "to return", and what does it do? It returns HP to you!

“Sire” means “give birth”, so re-sire means give birth again. It gives you new life force.

[DefaultBeep]

7 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

“Sire” means “give birth”, so re-sire means give birth again. It gives you new life force.

Interesting. That would make sense for the class associated with religion to use, assuming that was the main intent. Although maybe not in the way the spell actually functions...

[Rezzy]

10 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

“Sire” means “give birth”, so re-sire means give birth again. It gives you new life force.

Sire usually means to be the male contributor to the birth process, but not being the one who actually gives birth.

[Vaximillian]

3 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Sire usually means to be the male contributor to the birth process, but not being the one who actually gives birth.

Well, yes, not directly “give birth” but rather “produce an offspring”, but you get the whole thing.

[Rezzy]

3 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Well, yes, not directly “give birth” but rather “produce an offspring”, but you get the whole thing.

Yeah, I just have personal experience there, so distinctions can be important.

[Vaximillian]

8 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Yeah, I just have personal experience there, so distinctions can be important.

I bet you wouldn’t have been able to have had personal experience without a male contributor

I’m a cat, I’m not fluent with this language, I botch stuff pretty often :(

Edited October 3, 2017 by Vaximillian

[Anacybele]

And my post gets buried... :( I don't even get where this off topic-ness came from...

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

I bet you wouldn’t have been able to have personal experience without a male contributor

Could've been a Ditto.

[DehNutCase]

57 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't see why you assume that all four of your units need to be in range to attack the opponent at once. When playing with melee flying units, you're picking off units as they approach you and not running in to kill everything in one turn because you simply can't do that, and you can take advantage of the terrain to put yourself at an advantage. You can't use the same tactics that you use with cavalry, and therefore how you use your positioning is different. You don't need to be able to reach the next unit over because that unit isn't threatening you (and if it is, you should have positioned your units to take that unit out first or at the same time).

You're trying to use cavalry tactics with fliers, and that simply doesn't work.

You don't need all four units to be range to attack at once, but you do need all four units to be in range to do what they need to do on their unit-turn at once. Just change the 'attack target' to the 'reposition target' or 'start-of-next-turn position target,' non-attack uses of unit turn will negate a ranged unit's ranged disadvantage, but not cavalry's movement advantage.

The more units you need to pick off in a given turn, the more reach you need to have yourself in order to pick everyone that needs to die off, because you'll have less turns to use for positioning (this is basically the only reason melees are competitive at all, because they have access to the one skill that generates unit-turns, Galeforce).

Difficult to deal with defense teams that the team that maximize the unit-turns you need to expend on your player phase in order to deal with the problematic units (ideally, make you spend more unit-turns than you can generate, meaning you straight up can't deal with all the things you have to deal with, therefore earning a win for the defense team). I'm not rating units based on how well they deal with trivial arena teams like 4 melees no dancer, I rate units based on how well they deal with the teams that are actually hard to beat. (Generally speaking, this is cavalry heavy teams that have good ORKO potential, good reach, and good bulk. You probably don't see them much because one of the standouts of that type is Camus, who's locked to +1 merge max. Reinhardt and Lyn are great, but lacking the 1-2 range counter unit with great matchups offensive and defensive means the archetype is fairly predictable---and predictable teams are liable to be 'teched' against.) This is why I rate cavalry so highly, because they spend so little unit-turns on moving, leaving all or almost all of their unit-turns for picking off threats.

Fliers can do something similar by terrain abuse---different pathing means that they have safespots other units can't reach---but it's simply not at Cavalry's 'always beats the AI' levels of mobility, because you can't abuse terrain if there aren't any to abuse. IRRC, in the double walls map---the one where everyone puts Reinhardt on the third slot---a ranged cavalry unit should have full coverage against any melee flier if they're in the center of the map. Doesn't help that they cover the center from behind the walls, either. There's also a lot of 'fair' maps that are basically all open terrain with minor obstacles---like the map with a couple columns that can't be moved through and a couple squares of water that can be flown over, or the map that looks kind of like Mr. Fuga's wild ride where it's an entire map of bridges, air, and fort tiles. Terrain abuse needs terrain to abuse, which is map dependent, whereas Cavalry mobility will always tie or beat AI mobility.

Mind, an asset that happens occasionally is nonetheless very good, because a unit is rated on how much they can raise the win percentage (ideally you get it to 100%, of course), but they problem with unreliable assets is that, you either have 100% winrate without that asset, in which case it doesn't actually matter, or you have less than 100% winrate without that asset, in which case that's an actual, tangible hit on how high you can get your winrate, which starts mattering as a team pushes against the 100% winrate mark. Certain unreliable assets can be covered by team composition---TA3 blues dying to greens can be covered by reds, for example, but a flier's 'safezone' abuse is less reliable than cavalry's great mobility in general, and, even when it works, rarely ends up outright superior. The problem, really, is that flier favored maps usually also favor cavalry. Being able to shoot across mountains does wonders when obstacles are almost never 2 tiles thick. (And then there are those 'be cavalry or be square' maps like the map where everything is destructible.)

If there were maps that cavalry blatantly sucked in in the rotation, I'd rate fliers a lot higher, because cavalry mobility would be an unreliable asset just like flying mobility, but the closest to that is the one with a line of trees in the middle and a couple scattered around (the first map of rotation 1 according to the wiki), and infantry are wrecked even harder than cavalry there, meaning it's pin-cushion season as long as you remember to bring ranged cavalry.

 

Not even cavalry attempts the full sweep every time (and even then, for me, it's usually Cordelia & Dancer using Galeforce to pick off 3 of the 4, because that leaves 2 unit-turns free for positioning and finish off the last, rather than demanding ORKOs from everyone), but the problem with flying melee is that their end-of-unit-turn positioning is strictly worse than a flying ranged (they're either one square further ahead---needing one extra square's worth of retreat---or else use up their B-slot for Hit and Run in exchange for ranged positioning that: a, can't hit from the diagonal and b, don't actually have the extra +1 range) and their start-of-turn positioning requirements being stricter than anyone except melee infantry and armors.

The problem with Cavalry isn't that they have their own, special, playstyle, it's that they have their own, special, playstyle and basically everyone else's. Cavalry's hit n run can leverage their extra move exceedingly well, being able to stand behind a dancer to give the dancer maximum movement range for the cavalry attacks, dancer dances cav, cav repositions dancer, and optional cavalry repositions cavalry to get everyone the hell out of dodge strategy. It doesn't help that Cavalry now has all colors of magic and physical as well in their ranged unit toolkits, whereas fliers are still missing physical and red. None of the current dancers can fly, either, meaning a flier that leverages terrain can't be danced without certain B-skills triggering or else running Guidance---use up enough skill-slots and cavalry will have better matchups anyway due to better buff access. Even Hone and Forts have positioning requirements, even if relatively minor, but it'll be the slot-requirement that kills the matchup table.

Mind, a lot of this advantage is temporary, flying dancers, more flying mages, flying archers, and, to a minimal extent, flying healers, will close the gap between fliers and cavalry by a lot. Right now Cavalry's BST disadvantage doesn't really matter because they have a better selection of stat spreads and units, once fliers get more min-maxed and get more units, their BST advantage might tip them to the point where they don't care that cavalry moves further. There's a certain break-point where it doesn't matter how much mobility you have because you have perfect offenses and defenses, which, since you can just stand there and let everyone kill themselves on you, heavily devalues mobility. The problem is that cavalry teams, currently, won't ever see such a unit in Arena---in part because B!Lyn can just chip away at an armor for 50 rounds if needed, thanks to her B-slot.

57 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

And you're (1) assuming that you have a tome user in your party, which you can't do, and (2) assuming that if you do have a tome user in the party, that the other two members of your party are not equipped to provide the buffs in Est's place, which is similarly invalid (see below).

I'm not saying other units aren't equipped to provide the buffs, I'm saying that the C-slot isn't free. Raising Est on the list for Def Ploy is saying:

Def Ploy is a better option for Est than other C-slots and that Est is one of the better people to run Def Ploy on or Est benefits more from Def Ploy than other units.

That's an or for the last one because Est rises either because Def Ploy is a good support skill option for her to help the team or Est rises because she uses the -5 def better. Anyone that meets Def Ploy's requirements can run Def Ploy, anyone who's physical benefits from -5 def, there's no reason to link the requirements and benefits when anyone on the team can provide Def Ploy, just like anyone on the team can provide Hone.

For Def Ploy to raise Est's support rating, it has to be a better option compared to stuff like Hone Atk, Hone Type, and she has to be one of the better carriers for it. Def Ploy is strictly worse than Hone Type except when trying to stack buffs, in which case it's comparable to Goad Type (+4/+4 vs. +5/+0, except one cares about unit type and the other cares about damage type). Mind, being comparable is already good enough for this half---more options is always good, having another copy of a 1 mana 'draw a card' option is great even if there's already a 0 mana 'draw a card' option for a given MTG deck, redundancy and stackability. The problem is the other half, where Est has to be a better carrier of Def Ploy than other units.

She's not:

Res. Mobility. C-slot price. She only hits 1 of the 3.

Leo hits 3 of the 3. B!Lyn hits 2 of the 3.

 

For the reason that Est's usage of Def Ploy is disjointed from Est carrying Def Ploy, the logic is simple:

Any time Est can apply Def Ploy for herself, a better carrier of Def Ploy can apply it for her. An Est, in place, with or without Def Ploy, can have Leo standing behind her---and Leo would still have equal or better mobility to do anything than the Est, because +1 move, +1 range. This is the best case scenario for Est, where she gets to both apply and use her buff, in any case where she's only applying the buff, Leo and Est would be standing in the same square---if you're worse when someone's giving you a handicap, what happens when they stop?

 

Therefore, the other reason for Est to rise would be only: Est uses Def Ploy better than anyone else.

I mean, she uses it better than other people with 35/30 offenses and 36/24 physical bulk, but that's not exactly a high bar considering Hinoka, who starts with a brave lance (value town!), has 35/32 and 41/25.

Hinoka is a whole tier below Est.

This is Setsuna vs. Klein all over again, one of them starts with a better kit and ends better, and is an entire tier below. (Strictly speaking, it's a bit better this time, since Klein was two tiers below).

57 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Est's 30 Spd with Life and Death isn't good enough to fish for double attacks anyways because the assumption is that you don't have Hone Fliers on your team.

Part of that is because Est's bulk is so bad, by the way. To quad someone who can counter there are actually 2 requirements:

Be 5 speed faster.

Survive the counter-hit.

 

DB3 Est has less physical bulk than L&D 3 Cordelia.

This is a problem because, while 35/30 actually is high enough to reach the point where anything fast enough to avoid the double is going to get ORKOd, a lot of the slower things can straight up OHKO on the counter. (That's what causing her L&D numbers to be so bad---like Hana, she has to run Escutcheon, which lets people with less min-maxed offenses catchup with Luna.)

57 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Except that it doesn't significantly boost their support rating because it's comparable to Hone Atk in its absence. Hone Atk is worth +4.8 damage at weapon triangle advantage, and Def Ploy is worth +5 flat damage.

Putting Def Ploy on a unit that cannot use its effect for themselves is a slight boost to their support ability, but putting Def Ploy on a unit that can use the effect for themselves is a boost to their support ability and a boost to their own damage output.

This is why it boosts Est's rating and not Leo's.

Any time Est can provide Def Ploy for herself Leo can provide Def Ploy for her, standing one square behind, and reach every square that Est can reach for reposition purposes (and have +1 reach for attack purposes). Ideally Leo would be providing Def Ploy for Oscar and Oscar is carrying Hone Cav, but we're living in sadness land where Oscar is carrying Hone Atk, but that's still +8 for -blade Leo, even if I twitch my eyebrows typing that.

I always thought the point of a tier-list was to show people good units and good builds, but I've learned more and more that the wiki's tier lists is just some kind of weird popularity contest.

 

A team where Est is the best carrier of Def Ploy (that is, a situation you'd actually want to have Est carrying Def Ploy), is a team with: mostly 2 move people, little to none magical units, mostly melee. It's kind of a pity horses, mages, archers are kind of the best units in the game.

If someone asked me: "Should I put Def Ploy on Est?" My answer would be a flat 'no' if I didn't have time, or 'what's your team looking like?' followed by either a 'hell no' or 'here's some options to improve your team, you'll find the game a lot easier if you changed from this train-wreck, but if you like the people in the team, go ahead and slap it on Est.'

You can't go 'if Est doesn't fit your team, don't put it on a team,' that's not what S-tiers do. S-tiers are the second highest tier in the game, clocking in at just below fucking Reinhardt. S-tier is not the tier you put niche units with very crappy niches in. S-tier is the tier you put total bonkers stuff that are only held down because S+ is a world full of fucking monsters.* That is, either units that are the very bloody best at what they do, but only that one thing, or bloody amazing at everything, just a bit below all the specialists. Est... isn't even close to that. (S+ tier is for people who do everything at the level of specialists, unless a new tier is created for just Reinhardt (Leo, B!Lyn, S!Camilla etc. don't fit in that tier because they don't have the pure amount of set options Reinhardt does---flexibility matters) in horse emblem, the S++ tier.)

*Ideally, in reality S+ tier is filled with random garbage + Reinhardt. Strictly speaking, no one should be S+ tier on the no-type buff list because type-buffed Reinhardt is so many miles above everyone else---including himself---that it's not even funny. (It's not the fact that he has a as close to perfect as possible set, it's the fact that he has that set, and every single other set a unit could want to run. Dude has TA-3 Raven, L&D -blade, even shitty stuff like Sea tome + Goad in the back burner, his spread makes him one of the best, or the best, user for almost every mage tome option, which isn't something the likes of Hector, Cordelia, etc. can compare to. They're good in their niches, but Reinhardt's niche is a bloody ocean while theirs is a teaspoon.)

A-tier, Cecilia's buffless tier, is where you put people with niches that aren't particularly exceptional. Cecilia has TA3 Raven, -blade (even without Horse Buffs Cecilia's +1 move gives options), and even random crap like that +1/+1 drive tome. This is where Est belongs. Def Ploy isn't enough to bump Est up a tier because she doesn't change enough to be bumped up a tier.

For some reason, Def Ploy is rated as a DB 2.5 rather than a Hone Physical. DB 2.5 stacks with itself, Def Ploy doesn't. This means that the fact that Est can use up a C-slot to buff herself doesn't even matter because someone else on the team can also use up a C-slot to buff Est, and everyone else the Def Ploy would be buffing.

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Except that someone else will handle it. That's the entire point of team-building.

For an extreme case, my own infantry mage teams only use Hone Spd with no other buffs, meaning they already have all of their buffs covered. My own movement-type teams only use Hone with no other buffs, meaning they already have all of their buffs covered.

Cookie-cutter Litrblade teams already have Eirika, Ephraim, or Azura in their party. If you have only two of the three units as Litrblade infantry, you can run identical buffs on your two mages and a different buff on your last unit. You'll be down one buff each turn, but there's rarely a reason you would have needed both buffs on both mages.

Except for Def Ploying for Est, is that it? Hones are handled by other people, Def Ploy can only be handled by Est. Yeah, if a skill is unique to a unit, that would bump the unit up, and Def Ploy is unique to Est. Fine. That's fair.

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And here you are (implying that you are) talking about tome users as teammates and Hone Fliers (because the only way Def Ploy is worse than a Hone skill is if said Hone skill is Hone Fliers or you are running magic users), neither of which are relevant in this discussion.

It's not just tome users teammates, it's also dragons. But sure, never run a single magic user, they aren't relevant. Fine.

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

1. As mentioned above, not every unit attacks on a given turn. That's not how you use melee fliers.
2. Est doesn't give up her turn to use Def Ploy even if she is out of range because she can still use her actual assist skill.

Which is better than someone who can use Ploy and still not be out of range to assist if needed, or attack if needed. Fine.

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

With that argument, everyone that prefers having Def Ploy support rises because Def Ploy support exists, everyone that can actually hit things with Def Ploy (mostly units that can't actually take advantage of the effect themselves) rises because of an increased support rating, and everyone that can do both rises for both of those categories, which still puts Est as rising twice.

As such, the characters that get higher ratings from the existence of Def Ploy are still the characters that can both put it to use (Brave physical attackers) and have the Res to hit enough of the game with it, not units that only do one or the other.

Rising twice for .05 each is still worse than rising once for .2.

Est gets less out of Def Ploy in terms of support because it costs more for her to put it to use, being a 2 move melee. 3 move units and ranged units pay less unit turns to use it. (She also has other, options that are either comparable or flat out better, but we're pretending even Hone Atk doesn't exist.)

Est gets less out of Def Ploy in terms of offenses because Atk gets exponentially better if you have high speed, because it pushes units into the 'if you avoid the double, you get 2hkod and failed to OHKO back territory.' BST in Def or HP is BST not in Spd or Atk. She neither has the bulk to avoid the OHKO on the counter nor the speed to grab x4 hits from having high Atk.

Further, while the speed requirement can be negated with a breaker, that's only if you survive the OHKO---Even if Olwen had Reinhardt's attack she can't run a breaker, because her physical bulk is miles worse than her magical bulk is exactly 1 better, one, and this is ignoring the fact that her extra Atk would've come out of her bulk anyway.

 

Running a bad unit in a bad team to give them a 'unique' niche is makes for meme teams, not good teams. Meme units should not be high tier units. (In mine, meme units are the definition of high tier for the wiki's list. The only reason Reinhardt is S+ tier is because he's a meme, not because he's good. He just happens to be good and a meme.)

[Vaximillian]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And my post gets buried... :( I don't even get where this off topic-ness came from...

You’re in Heroes General, where there is no topic that is off-topic.

[DefaultBeep]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

And my post gets buried... :( I don't even get where this off topic-ness came from...

No worries, I saw him. I'm always a fan of low-rarity units being made good because of favoritism, and he looked pretty nice, better than I would've expected honestly. Has he only inherited Lancebreaker 1 and 2, or does he just need enough SP to learn Lancebreaker 3?

[Rezzy]

2 minutes ago, DefaultBeep said:

No worries, I saw him. I'm always a fan of low-rarity units being made good because of favoritism, and he looked pretty nice, better than I would've expected honestly. Has he only inherited Lancebreaker 1 and 2, or does he just need enough SP to learn Lancebreaker 3?

If it's Lancebreaker 3, that's some real dedication.  Although now that Oscar is 4*, does he learn it at 4*, or is it 5* only?

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, DefaultBeep said:

No worries, I saw him. I'm always a fan of low-rarity units being made good because of favoritism, and he looked pretty nice, better than I would've expected honestly. Has he only inherited Lancebreaker 1 and 2, or does he just need enough SP to learn Lancebreaker 3?

Only inherited LB2. I think Narcian is the only unit that has LB3 at 4 star. And I have two of him, but one is 3 star and I'd sooner use the 4 star one to give Reinhardt LB3.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And my post gets buried... :( I don't even get where this off topic-ness came from...

I confess to being an agent of chaos on this board, and never truly a force for law and order or meaningful contribution (I never get into talk of game mechanics). I deserve some of the blame. I try to keep myself somewhat in check (I can't think of a witty comment to the Ditto line so I won't bother), but I am still guilty nonetheless.

[Anacybele]

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

I confess to being an agent of chaos on this board, and never truly a force for law and order or meaningful contribution (I never get into talk of game mechanics). I deserve some of the blame. I try to keep myself somewhat in check (I can't think of a witty comment to the Ditto line so I won't bother), but I am still guilty nonetheless.

No worries, it was just kinda weird coming in here and finding a bunch of posts that have nothing to do with Heroes. xP

[DefaultBeep]

Just now, Rezzy said:

If it's Lancebreaker 3, that's some real dedication.  Although now that Oscar is 4*, does he learn it at 4*, or is it 5* only?

He learns it at 4-star, which is a blessing for every player and Narcian out there.

Just now, Anacybele said:

Only inherited LB2. I think Narcian is the only unit that has LB3 at 4 star. And I have two of him, but one is 3 star and I'd sooner use the 4 star one to give Reinhardt LB3.

I don't blame you, Reinhardt is the only person I've been willing to sacrifice a Narcian for as well. Now that Oscar's here though, at least there's more chances to give Lancebreaker 3 away. Hopefully you'll get one with a bad boon/bane to give to other units, although preferably after you get a good one if you don't have him at all yet.

[MrSmokestack]

4 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

If it's Lancebreaker 3, that's some real dedication.  Although now that Oscar is 4*, does he learn it at 4*, or is it 5* only?

Lancebreaker 3 is 4* now. Yey.

[Silverly]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And my post gets buried... :( I don't even get where this off topic-ness came from...

I was about to comment on your Donny but I got distracted by other things. Looks good so far!

I was building one myself at one point but I abandoned the project. Similar thing happened with my Shanna, Abel, Corrina (that's what I call f corrin :P), Est, and Tiki. I never released them though because I have a weird sentimental feeling towards them, and maybe someday I'll promote them and follow through. :D

 

[Rezzy]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Could've been a Ditto.

 

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I confess to being an agent of chaos on this board, and never truly a force for law and order or meaningful contribution (I never get into talk of game mechanics). I deserve some of the blame. I try to keep myself somewhat in check (I can't think of a witty comment to the Ditto line so I won't bother), but I am still guilty nonetheless.

Hey, your waifu was holding a baby.  We don't know how it got there, but your waifu had it.  Would you like to send it to the Deep Realms?

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, DefaultBeep said:

He learns it at 4-star, which is a blessing for every player and Narcian out there.

I don't blame you, Reinhardt is the only person I've been willing to sacrifice a Narcian for as well. Now that Oscar's here though, at least there's more chances to give Lancebreaker 3 away. Hopefully you'll get one with a bad boon/bane to give to other units, although preferably after you get a good one if you don't have him at all yet.

Well, I want to use Oscar someday too, so I hope to pull him with good IVs as well. xP

6 minutes ago, SilvertheShadow said:

I was about to comment on your Donny but I got distracted by other things. Looks good so far!

I was building one myself at one point but I abandoned the project. Similar thing happened with my Shanna, Abel, Corrina (that's what I call f corrin :P), Est, and Tiki. I never released them though because I have a weird sentimental feeling towards them, and maybe someday I'll promote them and follow through. :D

Thank you! Yeah, truth be told, I had Donny waiting to be 5 starred for a long time now. I just kept prioritizing other units over him until now.

[Vaximillian]

4 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Hey, your waifu was holding a baby.  We don't know how it got there, but your waifu had it.  Would you like to send it to the Deep Realms?

How else do I get a new relatively competent supersoldier in a reasonable timeframe? I’ve no time for parenting, there’s a world to save!

[Rezzy]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Well, I want to use Oscar someday too, so I hope to pull him with good IVs as well. xP

I hope to get an Oscar who isn't -Atk.  Although mine is at least +Spd.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Rezzy said:

I hope to get an Oscar who isn't -Atk.  Although mine is at least +Spd.

Can't blame you there, even though +Spd is still okay.

[Junkhead]

[Troykv]

I have always believed Reinhardt can use everytome in the game.. and it works... it seems I was right in these thoughts... These like this makes me want to build a +Def/Res -Spd (or whatever) to have another Lyn's counter, but with Reinhardt flavor :P

Edited October 3, 2017 by Troykv