Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)

[LordFrigid]

Well, if he doesn’t get beaten into oblivion by all of the Armors, it looks like Jeorge will finally get his chance to shine. Big “if”, though. I’m going to have to run some numbers before the next season starts...

[Diovani Bressan]

6 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

They are making all these interesting new units with special and specific gimmicks, and all for nothing because you still need 1) specific skill to put a bandage over the festering cesspool that is arena scoring and 2) specific team to babysit your intended unit into actually getting kills in the first place.

Sadness.

Sad indeed.

Arena should be a place where you use your favorite units against other players teams. I would enjoy to use my infantry team or tactic tema, but they will not score well in Arena. My Arena Team had been always the same: 3 merged units and a bonus units. And I know most of the players do the same.

[redlight]

@Ice Dragon What if there's a cap to how much you can score with all of your units' score put together and you'd rework arena scoring into a bonus point system. Maybe not rework, but rather have a unseen modifier for it. Basically there'd be a scale for the "bonus points". Ranged units and dancers have it at negative, but armors, fliers, infantry and 155~ BST horses have it at a positive value. 150-154 horses would have a 0 point modifier. The positive caps at 170 BST and negative at 140 BST. There'd be a max amount of point modifier you can get that'll be extremely passed over by armor emblem, making people switch out armors for something else. The idea and my use of words could use a lot work, but how is the base concept for it? 

[mampfoid]

28 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

Well, if he doesn’t get beaten into oblivion by all of the Armors, it looks like Jeorge will finally get his chance to shine. Big “if”, though. I’m going to have to run some numbers before the next season starts...

Arena screams for Firesweep + dancer, but I only have one single Faye (and only a 4*+10 Olivia). 

[Usana]

Looks like I am going to want to sit on that -SPD Kliff I got. I really prefer to run two bonus units and have Amelia and Eirika do the assisting. Jeorge is 4*+10 with his refined Parthia. But ranged foes are kinda rare in Arena so I dunno if he is really a good idea or not. Beyond him though a second bonus would cost me scoring potential. Still this weekend I'll have to grind up Kliff and get Jeorge some SP to optimize his scoring a bit. Just incase I decide to use him.

[Javi Blizz]

It seems that Hawkeye will be my choice, as he's 4*+10. He has refined weapon and AoE special, just missing to move from 200 SP skills (and QR2) to 240 SP skills (for B and C, with QR3 as the seal). 

[Ice Dragon]

55 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

@Ice Dragon What if there's a cap to how much you can score with all of your units' score put together and you'd rework arena scoring into a bonus point system. Maybe not rework, but rather have a unseen modifier for it. Basically there'd be a scale for the "bonus points". Ranged units and dancers have it at negative, but armors, fliers, infantry and 155~ BST horses have it at a positive value. 150-154 horses would have a 0 point modifier. The positive caps at 170 BST and negative at 140 BST. There'd be a max amount of point modifier you can get that'll be extremely passed over by armor emblem, making people switch out armors for something else. The idea and my use of words could use a lot work, but how is the base concept for it? 

My first draft of how I'd personally redo Arena scoring with caps would be the following:

• Stat totals
  • Averaged across all four units on the team and capped at 170 afterwards.
  • Averaging happens after putting units into bins. Remainders are still distributed.
    • If your team consists of 155, 170, 179, and 180, then those are binned into 155, 170, 175, and 180, then averaged to 170.
    • If your team consists of 140, 170, 179, and 180, then those are binned into 140, 170, 175, and 180, then averaged to 165, 165, 165, and 170 (with the 170 applied to the unit that was originally 180).
• Skill SP
  • Same as current, but with a hard cap at 1,900 SP per unit.
• Bonus unit kills
  • Capped at 10 kills per full run or 30 points total.
• Everything else
  • Same as current.

What this basically means is

• Running four armors is no longer necessary for optimal scoring. However, high-stat-total armors are still useful for padding out low-stat-total units.
• Duel skills are still useful since they are worth 300 SP and boost the unit to be "neutral" relative to the stat total cap.
• Lower-SP skills can be padded for elsewhere, but with only a little bit of leeway.
  • On a standard unit, 350 + 150 + 500 + 300 + 200 + 200 + 200 = 1,900.
  • On a staff user, 350 + 300 + 300 + 300 + 240 + 240 + 240 = 1,970.
• Merges and blessings are still worth full value to encourage pulling for characters.
• Bonus unit kills are capped to mitigate the babysitter meta. You still need to get half of your kills with the bonus unit, but you are no longer penalized for not being able to kill absolutely everything.

However, capping this much of the scoring has one very notable problem: You end up with the same situation as Arena Assault before the tier rework where everyone at the top ties for the same maximum score and missing out on even a single point could result in demotion. And that really, really sucks and pisses off your top players. And I don't know how to fix that problem while still being able to even out the playing field for other movement types using caps.

Reducing the amount of leeway with the caps will help spread out the top, but then has the problem of no longer serving its original purpose. You could use a sigmoid-like scale (linear between 150 and 170 with flatter slopes (still linear) above and below) but that means enemy teams will still be all armors at the very, very top, though player teams won't necessarily be.

 

To be perfectly honest, I still think the best option right now is to simply make all of the Duel skills available and accessible to all players for all units. Capping the SP contribution should be rather safe, however.

And cap the number of points that can be obtained through bonus unit kills. The babysitter meta needs to go.

I'm fine with the Arena being a place with arbitrary rules where the point is to game the system as much as possible because you can't prevent people from trying to game the system if there is one to game and there's no way to make the scoring rules not arbitrary with the weekly season format.

[Usana]

Well disregarding the future I think I may actually have a shot at climbing into T21 this week. I am currently rank 570. If I really need to I can get one more bonus kill(Wary Fighter is apparently not enough to keep Amelia from murdering crap she isn't supposed to murder). I could also potentially up my score range by 2 by giving Myrrh Aether and Fortress DEF/RES from my -SPD Kliff. I even got a defense win already. Though a rather low scoring one. 586. That is just kinda wierd, but it is enough for a max reward so I don't care. And I just remembered I am using a odd Flyer team because my 'let Myrrh kill everything' team was not faring well in defense wins.

Personally I am hoping 3731 will be enough. Sounds like it might be close though. I am so mad at Amelia right now, those 3 missed points would make me feel a fair bit safer!  So I . . . might need to go back and fish a little more than I did and make sure Amelia doesn't kill crap she isn't supposed to kill. Bad Amelia. Bad. Maybe change her refine from ATK to Defense or something.

[redlight]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

My first draft of how I'd personally redo Arena scoring with caps would be the following:

• Stat totals
  • Averaged across all four units on the team and capped at 170 afterwards.
  • Averaging happens after putting units into bins. Remainders are still distributed.
    • If your team consists of 155, 170, 179, and 180, then those are binned into 155, 170, 175, and 180, then averaged to 170.
    • If your team consists of 140, 170, 179, and 180, then those are binned into 140, 170, 175, and 180, then averaged to 165, 165, 165, and 170 (with the 170 applied to the unit that was originally 180).
• Skill SP
  • Same as current, but with a hard cap at 1,900 SP per unit.
• Bonus unit kills
  • Capped at 10 kills per full run or 30 points total.
• Everything else
  • Same as current.

What this basically means is

• Running four armors is no longer necessary for optimal scoring. However, high-stat-total armors are still useful for padding out low-stat-total units.
• Duel skills are still useful since they are worth 300 SP and boost the unit to be "neutral" relative to the stat total cap.
• Lower-SP skills can be padded for elsewhere, but with only a little bit of leeway.
  • On a standard unit, 350 + 150 + 500 + 300 + 200 + 200 + 200 = 1,900.
  • On a staff user, 350 + 300 + 300 + 300 + 240 + 240 + 240 = 1,970.
• Merges and blessings are still worth full value to encourage pulling for characters.
• Bonus unit kills are capped to mitigate the babysitter meta. You still need to get half of your kills with the bonus unit, but you are no longer penalized for not being able to kill absolutely everything.

However, capping this much of the scoring has one very notable problem: You end up with the same situation as Arena Assault before the tier rework where everyone at the top ties for the same maximum score and missing out on even a single point could result in demotion. And that really, really sucks and pisses off your top players. And I don't know how to fix that problem while still being able to even out the playing field for other movement types using caps.

Reducing the amount of leeway with the caps will help spread out the top, but then has the problem of no longer serving its original purpose. You could use a sigmoid-like scale (linear between 150 and 170 with flatter slopes (still linear) above and below) but that means enemy teams will still be all armors at the very, very top, though player teams won't necessarily be.

 

To be perfectly honest, I still think the best option right now is to simply make all of the Duel skills available and accessible to all players for all units. Capping the SP contribution should be rather safe, however.

And cap the number of points that can be obtained through bonus unit kills. The babysitter meta needs to go.

I'm fine with the Arena being a place with arbitrary rules where the point is to game the system as much as possible because you can't prevent people from trying to game the system if there is one to game and there's no way to make the scoring rules not arbitrary with the weekly season format.

Well that's a much better way of going about it. But like you mentioned, it'd piss off the top players. Duel skills have come, but even if they we're easily available, I'd prefer if they were a choice for at most one unit, not a must for your entire team.

[LordFrigid]

3 hours ago, mampfoid said:

Arena screams for Firesweep + dancer, but I only have one single Faye (and only a 4*+10 Olivia). 

I merged all my Fayes. I’ll probably play around with stuff in AA this week, just to get a measure of what I’m dealing with.

[Zeo]

@mampfoid With a score like that, you're 100% safe. That L!Tiki doesn't play around. But then I also remember your units have higher BST than mine so you're better on the score front also.

Rest easy.

[mampfoid]

@Zeo I think you are right. 

Who will be your bonus unit next week? 

[Hilda]

So my current all healers Team conistent of +10: Bride Lyn, Azama, Elise and Veronica is scoring 740 points on average... thats ok i guess. Haveing fun running this Team just for tests.

Their skills:
Azama:
Witchy Staff+ (dazzling refine)
Martyr+
Earthwater balm+
Duell Skill 3
Chill Atk
Atk Tactics 3
Close Defense 3 Seal

Lyn:
Pain + (wrathfull refine)
Rehabilitate+
Miracle
Duell Skill 3
Dazzling Staff 3
Spd Tacitcs 3
Savage Blow 3 Seal

Elise:
Gravity+ (dazzling refine)
Recover+
Miracle
Atk/Spd Push 3
Wrathfull staff 3
Res Tactics 3
Live to Serve 3

Veronica:
Hildsjalf (or whatever its typed)
Restore+
wind/fire balm+
Close Counter
Wrathfull staff 3
Close Guard 3
and Def Tactics 3 Seal

I dont want to face a healer Team in Arena ._.

[Zeo]

8 hours ago, mampfoid said:

Who will be your bonus unit next week? 

I'm honestly not sure yet. I could build a M!Kana pretty quickly to soak up kills and he has decent BST, but I don't have Aether fodder which he'll need unless I run something like Recp.Aid. I could build up Aversa or make a +2 Jeorge since I finally have a +ATK/NOT -SPD one but it'll probably be hard to get kills with either of them cause lolrangedunitsvsarmorsanddragons. Camus and Sharena don't score very well and LOLWHYWOULDIUSELUKE.

I'll likely cave and build an M!Kana. That's my best bet unless I can pull an Owain. What's your plan?

[Alexmender]

Down to tier 20 and getting back to tier 21 seems quite hard with all the L!Tikis running around. I'll have to fish for the 738-740 scores if I want to go back there. No Def wins yet.

Next week is going to be interesting to say the least. Loki will force me to run Reposition on Cordelia in order to get her out of danger which hurts my score but she's a lot better than Sharena thanks to the Duel skill so it's not like I have a choice considering the other units that are a bonus.

[mampfoid]

1 hour ago, Zeo said:

I'm honestly not sure yet. I could build a M!Kana pretty quickly to soak up kills and he has decent BST, but I don't have Aether fodder which he'll need unless I run something like Recp.Aid. I could build up Aversa or make a +2 Jeorge since I finally have a +ATK/NOT -SPD one but it'll probably be hard to get kills with either of them cause lolrangedunitsvsarmorsanddragons. Camus and Sharena don't score very well and LOLWHYWOULDIUSELUKE.

I'll likely cave and build an M!Kana. That's my best bet unless I can pull an Owain. What's your plan?

Yeah, I really would like to use Jeorge, it's a pity he would lower my score and having trouble getting kills. Same with Aversa, I could make her a blade tome mage, but that would be redundant with Nowi. 

Camus and Luke would score lower than Sharena and Hawkeye. Sharena is more or less ready, but will face a lot of greens. Kana won't see a promotion anytime soon. Perhaps I'll try Hawkeye. 

Why doesn't your Sharena score well? Does she miss skills or even the 5* promotion? 

 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

47 minutes ago, mampfoid said:

Yeah, I really would like to use Jeorge, it's a pity he would lower my score and having trouble getting kills. Same with Aversa, I could make her a blade tome mage, but that would be redundant with Nowi. 

Camus and Luke would score lower than Sharena and Hawkeye. Sharena is more or less ready, but will face a lot of greens. Kana won't see a promotion anytime soon. Perhaps I'll try Hawkeye. 

Why doesn't your Sharena score well? Does she miss skills or even the 5* promotion? 

 

Isnt Luke at the same bin as sharena? im pretty sure hes actually one of 3 old horse who is on her stats bin the other being Eliwood and Camus

Edited October 24, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[mampfoid]

Isn't it strange we are getting 3 GHB units as arena bonus in one rotation? 

5 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Isnt Luke at the same bin as sharena? im pretty sure hes actually one of 3 old horse who is on her stats bin the other being Eliwood and Camus

My Luke is -SPD (superbane, makes 154 BST) and mostly unbuilt. Sharena got her refined prf on top of 158 BST. Funnily Camus got 155 BST, AOE special and a prf, I could use him after all. Let's check the calculator: 

• My team with Camus: 720-734
• My team with Sharena: 720-734
• My team with Hawkeye: 720-734

Camus has got DC and 3 movement rate, but Sharena has got double SPD/DEF bond. Hawkeye has got the better color and an usable RES stat. Difficult decision. 

In any case, it will be difficult to enter in tier 21 again with that score range. 

/Edit: Did my AA run for this week: 5,195. Only 2 points short of my personal high-score. Will all those Tikis, I need more green blessed units. 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by mampfoid

[Diovani Bressan]

 I will probably go with Male Kana in the next Arena Season. He doesn't have Lighting Breath, but thanks to Water Breath and Brazen Def/Res he can be quite resistent. I will probably have 20.000 feathers next week, so I could give him Lighting Breath+ from a Nowi, but I would prefer give +1 merge to my Nowi.

With my Male Kana, I can have a Score Range of 722~736, which is not that high but I believe it can make me stay in Tier 20, since I will get demoted next season.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Diovani Bressan

[Ice Dragon]

Bleh, I need to mull over who to use for the next set of bonus Heroes.

I might have to pull for more copies of Loki after all since C Duel Infantry makes her the best +0 choice. Kliff is also not completely horrible since he sits in the 155 bin and has both a unique weapon and a 300-SP A-slot skill by default (and an actually functional one at that).

Or I can just merge up a Hawkeye, which is something I've kind of been meaning to do for some time now, and he'd be a decent check for the blue Tikis and Hectors that run around the top of the Arena these days.

[daisy jane]

so the options are gonna be the new heroes, hawkeye and M!Kana? 
hmm. then i guess i am gonna have to forgo the bonus kills. My Kana is 30 (and he's not on the upgrade list yet)

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, daisy jane said:

so the options are gonna be the new heroes, hawkeye and M!Kana? 
hmm. then i guess i am gonna have to forgo the bonus kills. My Kana is 30 (and he's not on the upgrade list yet)

I guess i should bring Hawkeye out of retirement, but he skillset is so outdated >.< I investe like last year the last time into him

[mampfoid]

2 hours ago, daisy jane said:

so the options are gonna be the new heroes, hawkeye and M!Kana? 

Here is the full list:

On 23.10.2018 at 1:42 PM, Diovani Bressan said:

Also, the next Arena Season is... something...

Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

From the 10 bonus units, I will have 5 at 5*: Aversa, Male Kana, Camus, Luke and Sharena. However, none of them have a good skill set for Arena, and I still don't know what will be Aversa's skill set... I will probably accept the demotion for the next season.

 

 

[Icelerate]

Currently ranked 3633 with a score of 3689. The cutoff to staying in tier 20 is being ranked 4289. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Icelerate

[daisy jane]

36 minutes ago, mampfoid said:

Here is the full list:

 

damnit. and today was "Bows" so i could have tried to get Jeorge to 40 silver at least. 
meh. whatevever. my plan then will be just stay in 18 and survive this. (i really need to train Sharena)

thanks for that list.