Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)

[Sylphid]

1 hour ago, cogawak said:

All you have to do is bait the mage or cavalry from long distance to line up with the dancer and they end up way ahead of the pack and it's easy to pick them off for free. Use the units with extra movement to your advantage as well as taking advantage of armor units to make their team composition fall apart because of the highly exploitable AI

Obviously I try to do this, but sometimes the starting positions just don't allow you enough movement space to move everyone out of the attack range of Olwen/Reinhardt+dancer (of course, heavily depending on the amount of movement skills your packing and if you have cavalry or fliers of your own). I've had at least two battles where I was doomed from the start since I couldn't move everyone who would die from a Dire Thunder far enough (I would like to say three, but I don't remember if I erred on my positioning on the third one or not)

[cogawak]

1 hour ago, Sylphid said:

Obviously I try to do this, but sometimes the starting positions just don't allow you enough movement space to move everyone out of the attack range of Olwen/Reinhardt+dancer (of course, heavily depending on the amount of movement skills your packing and if you have cavalry or fliers of your own). I've had at least two battles where I was doomed from the start since I couldn't move everyone who would die from a Dire Thunder far enough (I would like to say three, but I don't remember if I erred on my positioning on the third one or not)

Specifically which map are you referring to which doesn't give you enough space? I know some people complain about the map with two bridges but you can work around it with the right positioning skills whether it be dance or reposition or the many others. 

[Vaximillian]

1 minute ago, cogawak said:

Specifically which map are you referring to which doesn't give you enough space? I know some people complain about the map with two bridges but you can work around it with the right positioning skills whether it be dance or reposition or the many others. 

Two parallel walls with cracks, I suppose. There are trees here and there on the map, and it does get cramped.

[cogawak]

5 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Two parallel walls with cracks, I suppose. There are trees here and there on the map, and it does get cramped.

That's actually an excellent map for baiting Reinhardt if you know who is going to break the wall and let him zoom straight across. It's one of the better maps for AI manipulation imo. It's super easy to get the enemies all split up specifically because of the trees

this map right?

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by cogawak

[Thor Odinson]

I really hope that Sharena is a bonus character in the next set of bonus heroes.  I love Navarre as a character and all but he can't replicate even 20% of what Ryoma does and I suppose I /could/ run 2 reds on a team and just make Ryoma and Nino do all the goddamn work or something

but Sharena is pretty BALLER with my squad I want her

[Sylphid]

7 minutes ago, cogawak said:

Specifically which map are you referring to which doesn't give you enough space? I know some people complain about the map with two bridges but you can work around it with the right positioning skills whether it be dance or reposition or the many others. 

For me specifically, the two maps this happened in were the forest map with two paths from top to bottom and the one where you and the opponent start on the middle of the left and right sides (respectively) with some forest and mountain tiles around (I believe it's the one that originally had you start with 2 units in each corner, but not completely sure). I do want to point out (I don't think I made it as clear as I intended in the original post) that the issue was more the specific starting positions than the maps in general though, and my general lack of movement skills at the time (so a sum of several things).

In hindsight though, I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of the Heroes AI so I could be wrong about this.

Incidentally, the third one I mentioned in brackets was in fact the bridges map, but that one's irrelevant since I don't really remember that time aside from "there was Reinhardt+dancer, lost unit on first enemy phase".

[cogawak]

22 minutes ago, Sylphid said:

For me specifically, the two maps this happened in were the forest map with two paths from top to bottom and the one where you and the opponent start on the middle of the left and right sides (respectively) with some forest and mountain tiles around (I believe it's the one that originally had you start with 2 units in each corner, but not completely sure). I do want to point out (I don't think I made it as clear as I intended in the original post) that the issue was more the specific starting positions than the maps in general though, and my general lack of movement skills at the time (so a sum of several things).

In hindsight though, I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of the Heroes AI so I could be wrong about this.

Incidentally, the third one I mentioned in brackets was in fact the bridges map, but that one's irrelevant since I don't really remember that time aside from "there was Reinhardt+dancer, lost unit on first enemy phase".

I don't believe the two unit in each corner map is in this current arena set but that does tend to give a lot of trouble to people. The forest map with two general paths should also be an easy one because one path or another, units that take one usually have to commit to it. Being able to position at a mouth of a path and faking out and flip flopping over to the other side when the enemy AI has already committed makes that map one of the easier picks. First step in starting any map is identifying who each unit on the other side has bloodlust for. Intentionally make one of their paths as quick as possible to reach you and then squash them. 

A specific tactic for that map is picking one unit to go straight down and directing the other units to cross over and take the path further from their starting positions. They will reach you with enough delay in between to clean up the first person. Prioritize fliers because they can fly straight down and reach you quickest. Position the unit it wants to kill in a straight line down from it. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by cogawak

[MrSmokestack]

8 minutes ago, cogawak said:

I don't believe the two unit in each corner map is in this current arena set but that does tend to give a lot of trouble to people. The forest map with two general paths should also be an easy one because one path or another, units that take one usually have to commit to it. Being able to position at a mouth of a path and faking out and flip flopping over to the other side when the enemy AI has already committed makes that map one of the easier picks. First step in starting any map is identifying who each unit on the other side has bloodlust for. Intentionally make one of their paths as quick as possible to reach you and then squash them. 

The starting positions were changed for the infamous "two per corner" map a while back, so now each team starts on opposite sides of the map. It's much better now since you have more cover to work with between the mountains and the forests, though a ranged + dancer on the enemy team can make 3/4 of your starting positions unsafe tiles on turn 1.

When there's no dancer on the enemy team, it's relatively easy to abuse how the AI moves, considering they prefer moving units to attack those they have a color advantage over.

Edited April 9, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[pianime94]

4508 now ranked me at 9169.

I wonder if it can stay on top 10k until the end.

[MrSmokestack]

1 minute ago, pianime94 said:

4508 now ranked me at 9169.

I wonder if it can stay on top 10k until the end.

Apparently there's a nearly 2k ranking difference between the 14-point gap in our scores. That'll be the day when 4500 no longer secures top 10k, especially since it guaranteed top 5k less than three weeks ago.

This arena update can't come fast enough.

[cogawak]

13 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

The starting positions were changed for the infamous "two per corner" map a while back, so now each team starts on opposite sides of the map. It's much better now since you have more cover to work with between the mountains and the forests, though a ranged + dancer on the enemy team can make 3/4 of your starting positions unsafe tiles on turn 1.

When there's no dancer on the enemy team, it's relatively easy to abuse how the AI moves, considering they prefer moving units to attack those they have a color advantage over.

Opposite sides of the map doesn't give you advantage in numbers like every other map though. I personally don't have issues with any of the maps because my team utilizes a combination of heavy speed stacking, fury desperation, and wings of mercy to get the upper hand in virtually every situation. 

[MrSmokestack]

8 minutes ago, cogawak said:

Opposite sides of the map doesn't give you advantage in numbers like every other map though. I personally don't have issues with any of the maps because my team utilizes a combination of heavy speed stacking, fury desperation, and wings of mercy to get the upper hand in virtually every situation. 

Since I've started to use Reposition more, only the bridge map still gives me trouble now--and it seems to be out of rotation this season. I like this new iteration of the former "two per corner" map since before, without forcing what can sometimes be an unfavorable bait (and this was before skill inheritance iirc), it was sometimes nearly impossible to keep two units from getting sandwiched, an effective 4v2 that gets worsened by the presence of a mounted + dancer on the enemy team.

Edited April 9, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[XeKr]

I think my Palla score is on the high end of potential ones for that team so I don’t actually think Michalis is going to do better unless using up a lot of crests to select matches. We’ll see though. It’s moving slowly so I hope the 4554 just stays in the top 5k (not looking great, jumped a bit overnight to 4402).

On Defense, not actually sure how relevant this is, but I didn’t get any for a day or so with Linde, Eirika, Robin(M), Anna, which was surprising given the past few weeks. I took Reposition off Anna and got 3 successes in a few hours. Of course after that I put Reposition back on and am now up to 10+ wins, so eh?

Edited April 9, 2017 by XeKr

[cogawak]

16 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Since I've started to use Reposition more, only the bridge map still gives me trouble now--and it seems to be out of rotation this season. I like this new iteration of the former "two per corner" map since before, without forcing what can sometimes be an unfavorable bait (and this was before skill inheritance iirc), it was sometimes nearly impossible to keep two units from getting sandwiched, an effective 4v2 that gets worsened by the presence of a mounted + dancer on the enemy team.

The specific scenario I've had issue with on the bridge is Takumi getting support skill huggy behind Hector with a dancer and it becomes an issue because you tend to want Hector to initiate but Takumi coverage doesn't allow that so easily. Desperation galeforce dance is capable of running through Hector, Takumi, Olivia all in the same turn (super clutch) but Hector and Takumi are never good to let bunch up on bridge. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by cogawak

[Sylphid]

4 hours ago, cogawak said:

I don't believe the two unit in each corner map is in this current arena set but that does tend to give a lot of trouble to people. The forest map with two general paths should also be an easy one because one path or another, units that take one usually have to commit to it. Being able to position at a mouth of a path and faking out and flip flopping over to the other side when the enemy AI has already committed makes that map one of the easier picks. First step in starting any map is identifying who each unit on the other side has bloodlust for. Intentionally make one of their paths as quick as possible to reach you and then squash them. 

A specific tactic for that map is picking one unit to go straight down and directing the other units to cross over and take the path further from their starting positions. They will reach you with enough delay in between to clean up the first person. Prioritize fliers because they can fly straight down and reach you quickest. Position the unit it wants to kill in a straight line down from it. 

Err, sorry, I should have been more specific: the experiences I was referring to are way from the past, at least one of them from before skill inheritance was a thing (likely all of them, but I'm less sure about the other ones).

Speaking of AI though, does it always use maximum movement of its units, assuming no obstacles and no targets to attack or use support skills on. The specific example I was wondering about was if it would move a cavalry just 2 tiles to leave it in a dancer's range if moving again will let it reach a target (if it doesn't, I'm going to feel stupid ).

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I believe it will always use the maximum amount of movement possible, but will also consider moving laterally to place itself into range of a refresher they still have to move the maximum possible range in this lateral direction, however). This is, of course, only if the refresher will let said unit attack something. Otherwise, they'll just zerg forward as usual.

 

Anyway, got a bit distracted, so late score update.

Score of 4562

• Ground Zero (4AM PST Apr 8) - #3139
• 6 Hours Later - #3283
• 16 Hours Later - #3363
• 36 Hours Later - #3800

Looks like I"m still kinda on track for top 5k, though it might be cutting things a little close.

I might be able to grab a marginal score improvement if my next two matches go deathless. Oddly enough, I've only seen a couple high merge teams. There was that first match with a tricked-out Ninian +10 and Julia +10 (which I posted the screenshot of) that forced me to take a death (had to throw Spring Chrom at the Julia to weaken her and then die to the Close Counter so that I could have Hector counter-kill her on EP), but otherwise I've only encountered another Ninian +10 with a Takumi +7. The rest were fury stackers, so it was a little easier to deal with them. Once I got used to the team, Sharena, Linde, Spring Chrom and Hector have been performing rather well. My Spring Chrom even soloed a Nowi and one-shot a Fae with a Draconic Aura proc in the same match. I'm definitely still vulnerable to green mages, though, despite Hector being good at one-shot counterattacks (there's a distinct possibility that enemies can have high enough merge to survive his 56 Atk and double him, negating Armads's own double). Enemy Sharenas and Ephraims cause zero issues, though, since Chrom and Hector both destroy them. Oh, and Hector hilariously ruins Takumi like a M!Robin with my current setup, since Sharena's Hone Def 3 and Spring Chrom's Spur Def 2 (that I yoinked off of Sully; oddly enough, I haven't needed to use Draw Back a ton with this setup) pushed him to 44 Def. Sorry, Takumi, this Hector gives no craps about your 49 Atk.

Anyway, despite taking the one death, I can probably get +10-20 on my current score if I stick to the one death (not that that will put me anywhere close to top 1k, but maybe it'll at least secure top 5k with absolute certainty). It's a shame, since that means I should've been able to clear 4600 if not for the obscene merge team. Ah, well, I've got another week to maybe break through.

Really need to work out what my core for a high score team is going to look like, so that I can put my precious few Repositions to use. Of course, I probably won't know until after the matchmaking update and get a feel for what's viable. I do have an up-and-coming +Atk Cherche, though, so I hope she can see use (if not, I guess she'll still have a job destroying many of the high-stratum quests for me).

[Kiran]

Sigh, I had to surrender to a Nowi with vantage since none of my units could take her down. The sad part is that I could have won that match had I actually bothered to read the skills beforehand. Checking skills is really a habit I should get into to avoid such scenarios but I tend not to since most inherited skills don't make much of a difference.

[eclipse]

I somewhat finished my Camilla's build.  Gronnraven+ is amazing.

Current score is 4,460, which ranks 15,812.  Next week, Lucina's swapped out for Tiki (though Julia becomes an issue again).

[Othin]

No deathless run this time around, sadly. Sitting at 4,518 points and rank 8,724, which should at least be able to stay in top 10k.

[Elieson]

Best I could get was a single death run for a score of 4,497 (Rank=11,645). Burned out 9 Crests to achieve it though, sheesh!

[Phoenix_Kensai]

Finally got another deathless run for a score of 4,546, putting me at rank 5.568 (and into the 5-10k bracket for the first time).

I think it's safe to say Gronnblade Bunny Camilla + Hinoka is the best thing to happen to my team. Camilla one-shots everything that's not red, Julia, or a neutral Hector, and Hinoka can deal with the first group, thanks to Triangle Adept and Reposition. Matches are a whole lot easier when the majority of units out there aren't much of a threat individually. Most of my deaths were due to simple mistakes on my part (which I make too often), but funnily enough, it's Hector that's the big liability on my team; his lack of mobility sometimes gets me backed into a corner where I have to sacrifice someone. I really need to give him Pivot or something, though I'm hesitant to sacrifice my sole Marth or Eirika...

[Rezzy]

Eight, count 'em eight Defense Wins, but sadly, I couldn't do a Deathless Streak.  I've been running into nothing but Skill Inheritance Teams, and my -Atk Spring Camilla just isn't that great.

I still got Offense Score of 4399, which is good for Rank 26,416.  If I can stay in the top 30K, that will be good for this week.  Hopefully, I can get a better team next season.

[Ice Dragon]

On 4/9/2017 at 2:36 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Score is still 4,634. Rank is now 752.

Looks like I'll be able to stay in the top 1,000 for the first time.

Rank update: 897.

[pianime94]

Ahh, 4508 really dropped me off 10k.

Oh well.

Cavalry team with Eliwood X Ninian net me 5 defense wins tho. So that's kinda nice.

Edited April 10, 2017 by pianime94

[MrSmokestack]

38 minutes ago, pianime94 said:

Ahh, 4508 really dropped me off 10k.

Oh well.

Cavalry team with Eliwood X Ninian net me 5 defense wins tho. So that's kinda nice.

4522 still puts me at 8330. Here's hoping I don't fall out of 10k. I extend my condolences to you though.