Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[Sire]

56 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

[Nowi Talk Stuff]

First question is (entirely matter of opinion): Is it worth more to guarantee a one-round kill against swords on player phase or to deal significantly more (usually) non-lethal damage on enemy phase?

Second question is (even more a matter of opinion): Which would you less want to fight against?

Man, now I'm wondering if I should reconsider wanting Swordbreaker for my Nowi...

However, I think I might have a decent answer to this question. But first, are you going to be controlling Nowi, or the AI?

If player controlled, Quick Riposte, no contest. Since Nowi can retaliate at any range, Quick Riposte allows her to handle any unit that cannot one-shot her before she retaliates. The only reason to run Swordbreaker is wanting to also use Nowi on the offensive, as well as have a skill that expires at 50% HP instead of 70% HP.

If controlled by Artificial Intelligence, both have their uses. I personally would fear a Quick Riposte Nowi more than a Swordbreaker one as if I can not one-shot Nowi, I will be receiving heavy damage if I try to attack her. Then, if I can't attack Nowi, I will be forced to have a unit take a hit and hope Nowi leaves the Quick Riposte range before I can try and take her out. (I have a Camilla and F!Robin that should be able to take on Nowi.)

However, in terms of AI usage, I think the AI would make far better use of Swordbreaker than Quick Riposte. Quick Riposte relies on mind games and messing with the attacking player's head while Swordbreaker will be a threat in the hands of an AI (even if players try to work with the WTA to their advantage).

Also, as an aside, Swordbreaker is far easier to obtain for players than Quick Riposte, as Quick Riposte 3 is locked behind 5* units. Swordbreaker 3 can be learned from 4* Abel.

[Ice Dragon]

So it seems Quick Riposte is a near unanimous winner. The reasoning sounds solid enough.

 

1 hour ago, Sire said:

However, I think I might have a decent answer to this question. But first, are you going to be controlling Nowi, or the AI?

Eventually, both. Right now, I have Robin as my primary blue unit (he'll have Close Counter and Quick Riposte once I get around to it), but I'll probably switch to Nowi once I get Ryoma merged enough to handle merged enemies better. Nowi will probably replace Robin in my defense team as soon as I get the skills learned, though.

 

1 hour ago, Sire said:

Also, as an aside, Swordbreaker is far easier to obtain for players than Quick Riposte, as Quick Riposte 3 is locked behind 5* units. Swordbreaker 3 can be learned from 4* Abel.

I have 2 5-star -Atk Kleins that will never see use ever, so I'll be fine on that front.

 

 

First priority, though, is training up Eliwood and Gunter for the cavalry quest... Whee... (And running tests to confirm if Durandal stacks with Death Blow.)

[ExpendableExtra]

What's the best support skill for a wall like Eldigan (+DEF/-HP)? I assume it would be Reposition so he can throw friendlies behind him to further shield them from possible ranged attacks.

With 40 Def I am pretty sure that either bonfire or Ignis will work great on him. But I only have Bonfire units beyond FRobin.

Considering his Fury skill, would a seal skill like Seal speed work for him or should I try something like vantage for his B slot?

[Korath88]

What B skill should I put on Michalis? I'm considering quick riposte or wings of mercy, but I'm open to suggestions.

The current set is:

Hauteclere

Smite 

Ignis

Iote's Shield 

empty B slot

Threaten Def 

[Pimalai]

What would be a good A skill to give to a +Res -Def Eirika, who has Moonbow already?

 

I have Darting Blow 3 available from Florina and Speed Plus 3 available from Fir. I could also Kill Roy for Triangle Adept, which would help her to get rid of greens easier.

 

Her frontline companion will be a -Spd + Def Catria and/or Raven +1, with triangle adept Robin at her back. I'm thinking Julia too, to counter armoured blues and dragons.

[Arcanite]

2 hours ago, Korath88 said:

What B skill should I put on Michalis? I'm considering quick riposte or wings of mercy, but I'm open to suggestions.

The current set is:

Hauteclere

Smite 

Ignis

Iote's Shield 

empty B slot

Threaten Def 

Quick Riposte is good, but Lance breaker is also pretty nice. Wings of mercy is, meh (to me). I see seal defense also working well. Renewal seems pretty nice for some extra sustain.

[Korath88]

1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

Quick Riposte is good, but Lance breaker is also pretty nice. Wings of mercy is, meh (to me). I see seal defense also working well. Renewal seems pretty nice for some extra sustain.

Seal defense is redundant with threaten defense already equipped. I don't have access to renewal, so it's probably going to be either quick riposte or lancebreaker 

[Arcanite]

Just now, Korath88 said:

Seal defense is redundant with threaten defense already equipped. I don't have access to renewal, so it's probably going to be either quick riposte or lancebreaker 

Oops! Didn't see that threaten defense there. It's definitely gonna be quick riposte. Itll help in combination with his relative thickness. From what I remember he isn't too fast so quick riposte fits well.

[MaskedAmpharos]

5 hours ago, Korath88 said:

What B skill should I put on Michalis? I'm considering quick riposte or wings of mercy, but I'm open to suggestions.

The current set is:

Hauteclere

Smite 

Ignis

Iote's Shield 

empty B slot

Threaten Def 

I second Quick Riposte. 

Also, while Iote's Shield is his signature skill (so I can imagine not wanting to replace it), if you're in the higher Arena tiers where archers are basically nonexistent, I'd consider replacing that with Fury or some other A-skill that would help him more than Iote's Shield would. 

[TheTuckingFypo]

I have a dumb question, but what exactly does Iote's shield do? I know it says it neutralizes, but to what extent does it neutralize? 

[Othin]

2 minutes ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

I have a dumb question, but what exactly does Iote's shield do? I know it says it neutralizes, but to what extent does it neutralize? 

Normally, when a bow is used against a flier, the bow user's Atk is multiplied by 1.5 before applying the flier's Def. If the flier has Iote's Shield, that doesn't happen.

[TheTuckingFypo]

Just now, Othin said:

Normally, when a bow is used against a flier, the bow user's Atk is multiplied by 1.5 before applying the flier's Def. If the flier has Iote's Shield, that doesn't happen.

Oh ok. Would that also apply to the weapon triangle? Or let's say your flying lance unit attacks an axe guy. Or is it strictly a defensive skill?

if so, I have a nasty inherit skill build idea >:3

 

[Othin]

Just now, TheTuckingFypo said:

Oh ok. Would that also apply to the weapon triangle? Or let's say your flying lance unit attacks an axe guy. Or is it strictly a defensive skill?

if so, I have a nasty inherit skill build idea >:3

 

It is completely independent of weapon triangle.

[May]

What set should I use for a support Ninian? I want to know before I sacrifice units on her.

[TheTuckingFypo]

Just now, Othin said:

It is completely independent of weapon triangle.

Oh ok. >:3 

thank you ^_^ now to prepare for my plan to spring into action.

ill explain it when I accomplish it.

[MaskedAmpharos]

52 minutes ago, Aera said:

What set should I use for a support Ninian? I want to know before I sacrifice units on her.

If you expect Ninian to see little to no combat, I'd recommend a defensive A-skill to keep her alive just in case (such as Fury) and Wings of Mercy over Escape Route for her B-skill (since Escape Route needs her to enter combat and be at low HP to use while WoM is dependent on your teammates' HP). Her current C-slot is fine, but you can always replace it with a different buff, like Hone Atk, if you think a different one would help your team more. For special, I'd just give her a low CD defensive skill, like Sacred Cowl (also there's a delicious irony in sacrificing Eliwood to Ninian) to help her defend against stray hits.

[Vaximillian]

What will be better for Mike? Dragon Aura from my spare Corrin or Bonfire from her fellow manakete?

[TheNiddo]

1 hour ago, Aera said:

What set should I use for a support Ninian? I want to know before I sacrifice units on her.

As previously mentioned, Fury isn't a bad choice even for a support Ninian. While its usually use for those on offences, it does boost speed, def, and res meaning that she's less likely to get doubled and takes less damage from occasional combat situations.

Can stick with Escape Route (when combined with Fury there's a fairly reasonable chance that she'd be in range after one combat round as long as it wasn't a really weak opponent), Wings of Mercy is also viable. Could also stick Renewal on her. C Slot is w/e would help your team the most, depends on what else you're using.

Considering her defence is actually weaker than her res, I'd go with Escutcheon. 2 attack charge means after a single round of melee combat its up and ready, or it will kick in if a melee opponent can double. Also helps her more against Falchion users.

Edited March 22, 2017 by TheNiddo

[MaskedAmpharos]

17 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

What will be better for Mike? Dragon Aura from my spare Corrin or Bonfire from her fellow manakete?

Definitely Bonfire.

Just comparing pure damage, Bonfire wins out by a tiny margin (Draconic Aura boosts Michalis' attack from 50 to 65. Bonfire's bonus damage is 50% of his 35 defense, which translates to 17.5 bonus damage on top of his 50 attack for a total of 67.5)

If you factor in the opponents' defense, Bonfire wins by an even larger margin since, if I'm understanding these skills' mechanics correctly, Draconic Aura adds to your attack before the opponent's defense is factored in while Bonfire adds to damage dealt AFTER attack-def calculations, meaning it basically ignores defense when calculating damage. I'm fairly certain Glacies/Iceberg works that way with Res, so it follows that Bonfire/Ignis would act the same way. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[Vaximillian]

1 minute ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

<snip>

Yes, that makes sense. Sorry, Corrin, you will be helpful some day, I promise you.

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Definitely Bonfire.

Just comparing pure damage, Bonfire wins out by a tiny margin (Draconic Aura boosts Michalis' attack from 50 to 65. Bonfire's bonus damage is 50% of his 35 defense, which translates to 17.5 bonus damage on top of his 50 attack for a total of 67.5)

If you factor in the opponents' defense, Bonfire wins by an even larger margin since, if I'm understanding these skills' mechanics correctly, Draconic Aura adds to your attack before the opponent's defense is factored in while Bonfire adds to damage dealt AFTER attack-def calculations, meaning it basically ignores defense when calculating damage. I'm fairly certain Glacies/Iceberg works that way with Res, so it follows that Bonfire/Ignis would act the same way. 

Both add damage before subtracting defenses. It's indistinguishable either way because addition and subtraction are commutative so long as the zero floor is applied after everything else.

For example, if for some odd reason Michalis is against an opponent with 55 Def, Draconic Aura will deal 10 damage, and Bonfire will deal 12.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[MaskedAmpharos]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Both add damage before subtracting defenses. It's indistinguishable either way because addition and subtraction are commutative so long as the zero floor is applied after everything else.

For example, if for some odd reason that Michalis is against an opponent with 55 Def, Draconic Aura will deal 10 damage, and Bonfire will deal 12.

Shows how little I know. I should probably refrain from giving out advice so freely before making sure I have all the facts straight...or just refer back to your research to double check. It's reassuring that either way I gave him the right answer though, as I'd feel bad if it turned out Draconic Aura was better, and you came running in with a big fat "OBJECTION". 

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

55 Def seems like it should be a possibility in the Tenth Stratum. At least, I ran into a Hector last night with 52 Def, which gets pretty damn close. Thanks to Pavise, he was 4HKO at best by my 50-Atk Marth, but since it was one of those tight corridor maps, an enemy healer was able to hide behind him for a while (until I could kill the other prong of their forces and come around for the flank), meaning that they ran around ineffectually trading blows for a while.

Speaking of those quests, I completed the infantry one last night. I was only taking axe-heavy or grey-heavy line-ups because I need to get Marth a bit more SP, so I was killing two birds with one stone. Unfortunately, despite picking up about 100 SP, he's still short. The cavalry team still goes after somewhat favourable sword setups. Things can get dicey, but they're 11/15, with Sully and Ursula really pulling their weight. RNG just hasn't really been favouring blue lances, so my fliers are only at 3/15. I did get one really close 3x lance + F!Corrin where 4* -Atk Camilla barely clutch out a win by finishing F!Corrin with a Draconic Aura proc. Despite the lances going down like chumps, she still one-rounded just about anyone else despite WTD (Michalis and Beruka would die from full; Narcian and Camilla could each tank one set, but F!Corrin's proc still threatened to obliterate them on a second). Gwendolyn's upgrade has paid off one, in that her buffs allowed Effie to clean up 2x sword + 1x staff without anyone else taking a swing. I tried another map that was a 2x sword and 1x lance gamble. Of course, got bad RNG and had an enemy Eldigan, who lunged Gwendolyn into range of the Catria that had to generate. I've since sacrificed a Stahl to Gwendolyn so that she's a bit tankier and has Swap, so that I can actually do something if I get a map where my starting formation is total ass.

[NecroJade]

Edit: editing this post because this was probably the wrong spot for that kind of question.

I do have a question about one of the skills however. If a melee unit has a tomebraker skill, does that mean that the tome user can only attack once (since the melee unit can't counter to get the double) or does the skill just not come into effect?

Edited March 22, 2017 by NecroJade

[BANRYU]

Okay so. Life-and-Death and Quick Riposte are, as I think most people know, 5* only for the third level. CAN you get away with running the lower levels of it? Specifically I was planning to run LaD2 on my neutral-attack Nino (Spd+/Def-) alongside Desperation and whatever proc I decide on, and QR1 on a!Tiki to allow her to double-counterattack at full health (dealing with Takumis and whatnot) until I'm able to get ahold of a Lon'qu to give her Vantage.

I guess two other questions I have are 1) who Nino wants to be able to reliably get rid of so I know whether I can afford LaD2 over 3, and 2) how to do calcs lol. Don't wanna have to keep harassing people over this but not sure where to start.

 

17 hours ago, Sire said:

I heard my name mentioned. Was I summoned?

The easy way to remember this is "if you have more DEF/RES than your enemies, run the DEF/RES Special Skills. If you have less DEF/RES than your enemies, run Moonbow or Luna." I just said 30 for a more casual comparison. If it is below 30, then other options become more valuable. That, and I was not really comparing Glimmer or Draconic Aura (which one should when really trying for efficiency.)

For your question, I am going to assume you are running a Neutral ATT 5* Nino (33 ATT) , wielding Gronnblade+ (+13 ATT), and running Life and Death (+5 ATT). So, Nino has 51 ATT. Then if you have a Neutral RES Nino, you will have 21 RES (26 - 5 = 21) or if RES Boon, 25 RES (30 - 5 = 25).

To bypass all the math and explanation, just run Draconic Aura (+15 Damage per proc, if Nino has 51 ATT) for your Nino's Special Skill. 
* * * * *
To simplify matters, we first need to determine the benchmark value for Iceberg. For 21 RES, Nino will deal 10 damage per Iceberg proc. (21 * 0.5 = 10.5 -> 10 Damage) For 25 RES, Nino will deal 12 damage per Iceberg proc. 10 and 12 extra damage sounds nice, but they are pretty low compared to bonus damage from elsewhere.

Since (color)blade weapons adds buffs to damage dealt, Nino may actually benefit from running Glimmer which increases damage dealt by 50%. As for actual values, Nino will need to consistently deal at least 20-24 damage, before Glimmer kicks in, to beat Iceberg as a special skill. The higher the damage Nino does, the better Glimmer becomes. Just remember that actual damage is modified by the Weapon Triangle! (So, Nino will deal more damage against Blues, but less against Reds. This will also affect Glimmer's bonus damage when it procs.)

Another 3 charge skill is Draconic Aura, which adds +30% to your ATT. Since Nino has 51 ATT, she will deal 15 damage per proc. (51 * 0.3 = 15.3 -> 15 Damage) 15 damage per proc is pretty good, and 15 bonus damage is what I use as a benchmark for special attacks.

Lastly, there is Luna. Luna is the "last resort" damage skill if none of the other options are good. Since Draconic Aura deals 15 damage per proc, for Luna to beat DA, the enemy needs to have 30 or more RES (there are just 19 characters with 31 or more RES, if the Stats Chart is accurate!). Keep in mind that there are not many "RES Tanks" out there and many people prefer -RES as their Bane, so I would not recommend Luna for Nino. // By extension, this also means that I do not recommend Moonbow, unless you really want that small increase in damage every 3 charges.

If you really wanted to go that extra mile, we can compare Glimmer to Draconic Aura. For Glimmer to beat DA, Nino needs to deal at least 30 or more damage. Now, as I don't have a fancy spreadsheet or calculator around, I will not be able to run all the numbers to see which one is better (see Elieson or Ice Dragon for that). To keep things simple though, just run Draconic Aura. It is more consistent than Glimmer (almost always +15 damage), and some may even say it looks cooler.

So, Draconic Aura (3 Charge -> 4 Charge due to Gronnblade+), is what I would suggest running for your Nino. I hope this helped! // Now, for some more generic calculations and tips, see the spoiler.

  Reveal hidden contents

DEF/RES Specials vs Moonbow & Luna
General Notes
- If you are a magic user, Luna & Moonbow are less desirable as there are not many "RES Tanks" worth it to bypass 50% or 30% of their RES. You are far better off running a different skill if you have to resort to Luna or Moonbow for bonus damage. Even Reprisal or Vengeance may give you better damage output.

30 or more DEF/RES: Pick up Bonfire, Ignis, Iceberg, or Glacies, no question.
- Bonfire/Iceberg deal 15 damage per proc. (User DEF or RES * 0.5 = Extra Damage)
- Ignis/Glacies deal 24 damage per proc. (User DEF or RES * 0.8 = Extra Damage)
- For Luna to beat Bonfire/Iceberg, the enemy needs to have 30 or more DEF or RES. (Target DEF or RES * 0.5 = Extra Damage)
- Bonus: The current highest base DEF is 39 while RES is 36. This means a "max" of 19/31 and 18/28 bonus damage is possible. (Base Felicia deals 28 bonus damage per proc of Glacies, and she runs it by default. Didn't expect that, did ya?)

28-29 DEF/RES: Lean towards the DEF/RES special skills, but Moonbow/Luna can work.
- Bonfire/Iceberg deal 14 damage per proc.
- Ignis/Glacies deal 22 damage per proc.
- For Luna to beat Bonfire/Iceberg, the enemy needs to have 28 or more DEF or RES.

26-27 DEF/RES: Lean towards Moonbow/Luna, but the DEF/RES skills could be nice for consistency.
- Bonfire/Iceberg deal 13 damage per proc.
- Ignis/Glacies deal 20 damage per proc.
- For Luna to beat Bonfire/Iceberg, the enemy needs to have 26 or more DEF or RES.

Lower than 25: Pick up Luna or or Moonbow.
- Bonfire/Iceberg deal 12 damage per proc.
- Ignis/Glacies deal 20 damage per proc.
- For Luna to beat Bonfire/Iceberg, the enemy needs to have 24 or more DEF or RES. Many common enemies (outside of most mages and colorless units) have more than 24 DEF. If you are running a magic unit and for some reason have no better special skill for damage, I would say pick up a different special skill instead.

Draconic Aura & Dragon Fang
Draconic Aura:
- To deal 12 damage, the user must have more than 40 ATT.
- To deal 15 damage, the user must have more than 50 ATT.
- To deal 18 damage, the user must have more than 60 ATT.
- Bonus: An Effie with a positive ATT nature, using Life and Death, equipped with a Silver Lance, and under the effect of Hone Armor (+6 ATT/SPD) has 69 ATT. She will deal 20.7 -> 20 bonus damage per proc of Draconic Aura.

Dragon Fang:
- To deal 20 damage, the user must have more than 40 ATT.
- To deal 25 damage, the user must have more than 50 ATT.
- To deal 30 damage, the user must have more than 60 ATT.
- Bonus: The Super Effie from above will deal 34 bonus damage per proc of Dragon Fang.

Tips:
- Try to aim for 15 bonus damage per proc of a damage skill. So, this means...
-- 30 DEF/RES for Bonfire & Iceberg.
-- 50 ATT for Draconic Aura
-- 30 HP Lost for Vengeance
-- 30 Damage for Glimmer (Remember, "Damage" is after taking in all the calculations, such as subtracting the foe's DEF or RES. // The author occasionally uses the term "damage"  for ATT bonuses, but here is the actual "true damage" definition.)

- If you can't reach 15, aim for 12 bonus damage minimum. If you can't reach that, then I recommend using a different special skill entirely.
-- 24 DEF/RES for Bonfire & Iceberg.
-- 40 ATT for Draconic Aura
-- 24 HP Lost for Vengeance
-- 24 Damage for Glimmer

- I apologize if this ends up being shared somewhere and suddenly all the Arena teams have optimized special skills.
- Nino tried her best.

I confess I wasn't explicitly intending to summon you, but I'm certainly not gonna knock the results xD Much appreciated, that is super helpful, thanks!

The only problem, at least for me, is that the only two units with Draconic Aura are scarcely ones I'm willing to scrap ;;; If I happen to get a spare f!Corrin then that'll definitely be something I consider though, until then, I might just go with Glimmer as a standin. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by BANRYU