What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[UNLEASH IT]

After playing Engage, I'd be okay with fixed weapon levels being a series staple. I don't think I'd ever want to grind weapon levels again. 

[Alastor15243]

29 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

After playing Engage, I'd be okay with fixed weapon levels being a series staple. I don't think I'd ever want to grind weapon levels again. 

There needs to be a bigger difference from promoting though. I don't want another Jagen who has to use iron weapons because if they gave him anything short of S rank any other lance user could use it.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

There should be negative supports, decreasing primary/secondary stats of units deployed together. As of max rank the player be given choice who leaves the army and the unit remaining in the army receives a signifcant stat boost.

[Etrurian emperor]

9 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Byleth comes off as not that strong but they have the writers to clumsily rewrite any situation to make them look good, they so far are honestly worse than Houses Byleth with how much of this weird Avatar Worship they get by the story.  (Since yeah they're not technically the player avatar anymore but they're blatantly getting dumb special treatment, more so than Houses which already skirted the line at times.) 

 

I think its less avatar worship and more Koei making Byleth fall into the role of the game's ''Lu Bu'' which in Koei games typically refers to an enemy npc with jacked up stats that you're supposed to run from.

Rather than annoying I mostly find it weird, because as you pointed out Byleth never appeared that strong in Three Houses. If anything they seem resemble a Jagen to some extend. Being impressive at first but getting surpassed by the lords later on. Byleth is stated to be stronger than the students, and her fellow house teachers at first due to having actual combat experience, but I never got the impression they were ever some titanic powerhouse. Once the war starts Byleth's chief contribution to the war is moral support(or a PR boost in Claude's case) rather than sheer might in combat. I always assumed both hobo Dimitri and Edelgard were to be seen as Byleth's superior in combat after the timeskip.

 

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think its less avatar worship and more Koei making Byleth fall into the role of the game's ''Lu Bu'' which in Koei games typically refers to an enemy npc with jacked up stats that you're supposed to run from.

Rather than annoying I mostly find it weird, because as you pointed out Byleth never appeared that strong in Three Houses. If anything they seem resemble a Jagen to some extend. Being impressive at first but getting surpassed by the lords later on. Byleth is stated to be stronger than the students, and her fellow house teachers at first due to having actual combat experience, but I never got the impression they were ever some titanic powerhouse. Once the war starts Byleth's chief contribution to the war is moral support(or a PR boost in Claude's case) rather than sheer might in combat. I always assumed both hobo Dimitri and Edelgard were to be seen as Byleth's superior in combat after the timeskip.

 

Byleth does manage to shift the balance of the war entirely to the side they join. The situation is a complete stale mate without them and then a complete victory with them. Moral support can only go so far, some of that must be down to sheer competence, either as a warrior or as a commander.

[ping]

A propos of the "least favourite supports" threat, although I don't know how unpopular my opinion about this specific part of her character is:

Peri has excellent voice lines. The "dreamy psycho murderer" vibe is very entertaining to me. It's just a shame that there's a character attached to them. And I don't mean that in the sense of "I wish Peri was a better character" - I don't think any character befitting Peri's voice lines would work as one of the good guys - but in a game where most of your units are barely characters at all, think "Shadow Dragon but with voice acting", Peri's over-the-top psychopathy would be fun and the game wouldn't have to bend backwards trying to justify why having her around is totally unproblematic.

I think this is true for other Fates voices, too, but Peri is the biggest example of a voice I really like on a character I can't stand.

Obviously, this doubles as an additional talking point for why Shadow Dragon is Good, Actually.

[Eltosian Kadath]

20 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

There should be negative supports, decreasing primary/secondary stats of units deployed together.

The closest thing we got is that Faye's support with Alm decreasing her avoid by a fair bit when they were too close...

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Byleth does manage to shift the balance of the war entirely to the side they join. The situation is a complete stale mate without them and then a complete victory with them. Moral support can only go so far, some of that must be down to sheer competence, either as a warrior or as a commander.

It's the Divine Pulse. Your resident Lord has grown too wary about the possibility of letting anyone actually die, and needs their Teacher with time-bending powers to come back, thus giving them the confidence and assurance to fight on.

While this is a joke - I don't believe any Lord becomes canonically aware of the Divine Pulse power that Teach possesses - there's an argument to be made that Divine Pulse is the biggest thing they bring to the table, and is what makes the difference in the war.

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The closest thing we got is that Faye's support with Alm decreasing her avoid by a fair bit when they were too close...

Maybe future "anti-supports" could inflict Hit losses, but Crit gains, to their participants? That would simulate them just being really pissed off at each other. So they can't focus as well, but they also have more frustrations to take out on the enemy.

Alternatively, if one character is trying to "avoid" the other, then that unit could see their Avoid buffed in a big way. I think there's some great possibilities for "storytelling through gameplay" here.

[Metal Flash]

23 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

There should be negative supports, decreasing primary/secondary stats of units deployed together. As of max rank the player be given choice who leaves the army and the unit remaining in the army receives a signifcant stat boost.

Out of curiosity, why would you WANT to raise that support knowing you`re gonna lose a unit?

[Samz707]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Byleth does manage to shift the balance of the war entirely to the side they join. The situation is a complete stale mate without them and then a complete victory with them. Moral support can only go so far, some of that must be down to sheer competence, either as a warrior or as a commander.

I at least think that's understandable in the sense of usual "war only continues when the protag gets involved".

You can see it in CRPGs alot, like Fallout NV, the big war that the game is around basically halts outside of maybe random battles with no real impact until your character gets involved.

STALKER Clear Sky,Jagged Alliance and Brigade E5/7.62mm stick out for being exceptions. (And even then, Clear Sky and Brigade E5/7.62mm stick out as the only ones where your faction will actually advance without your input.) 

It's silly but it's usually how games hand this, Byleth waking up to the war already being over wouldn't be much. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

I at least think that's understandable in the sense of usual "war only continues when the protag gets involved".

You can see it in CRPGs alot, like Fallout NV, the big war that the game is around basically halts outside of maybe random battles with no real impact until your character gets involved.

STALKER Clear Sky,Jagged Alliance and Brigade E5/7.62mm stick out for being exceptions. (And even then, Clear Sky and Brigade E5/7.62mm stick out as the only ones where your faction will actually advance without your input.) 

It's silly but it's usually how games hand this, Byleth waking up to the war already being over wouldn't be much. 

Yeah, and I don't really like it as a trope. It's not like Byleth had to wake up between stale mate or victory. They could have woken up during a time in which the war is going one way or another.

And that's something I kind of appreciate about Fates. All Fire Emblem games have the war being at the start of the game, with a sort of exception of Shadow Dragon. Fates has the conflict being an on going one for a decade by the time Corrin gets involved. There's still some stalemateyness to it with Mikoto's ridiculous peace barrier, but all in all it's a welcomed change of pace for the series.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's the Divine Pulse. Your resident Lord has grown too wary about the possibility of letting anyone actually die, and needs their Teacher with time-bending powers to come back, thus giving them the confidence and assurance to fight on.

While this is a joke - I don't believe any Lord becomes canonically aware of the Divine Pulse power that Teach possesses - there's an argument to be made that Divine Pulse is the biggest thing they bring to the table, and is what makes the difference in the war.

Maybe future "anti-supports" could inflict Hit losses, but Crit gains, to their participants? That would simulate them just being really pissed off at each other. So they can't focus as well, but they also have more frustrations to take out on the enemy.

Alternatively, if one character is trying to "avoid" the other, then that unit could see their Avoid buffed in a big way. I think there's some great possibilities for "storytelling through gameplay" here.

You might be joking, but that makes complete sense.

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 4/18/2023 at 12:02 PM, UNLEASH IT said:

After playing Engage, I'd be okay with fixed weapon levels being a series staple. I don't think I'd ever want to grind weapon levels again. 

Yeah, I can agree with this.

Fates is kinda the worst of both worlds, where you can't put S-rank whatever on every class with the weapon, but you still have to grind for rank.

[Acacia Sgt]

Limited ranks would be interesting if paired with an also limited number of Arm Scrolls. So choosing carefully where to use them.

[Jotari]

I like weapon ranks you have to work towards, in theory, but in practice I don't think the series has ever managed to do it well. Weapon ranks exp gain has varied from "so quick virtually everyone as max tier for their class" to "so slow it's basically fixed ranks". And the solution for this has always been obvious to me. Training weapons. As in, weaker weapons that give more weapon exp (I've had this idea for years and was go smacked when Three Houses implemented the exact name but not the actual mechanic). If we have a clear an easy way or grinding weapon ranks then it changes it from a chore to a task of focus. Getting that axe rank high on you're newly promoted hero is easy, but only if you care enough to do it and are willing to sacrifice some utility by giving a weapon slot to a weaker weapons and have them do chip damage or kill only weakened enemies for a while. The discipline skill also works far better in a skill system like Radiant Dawn where you can actually assign and reassign it to the unit that needs it rather than learn it in a class you're not going to promote to just to get it.

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

As in, weaker weapons that give more weapon exp (I've had this idea for years and was go smacked when Three Houses implemented the exact name but not the actual mechanic)

They sort of do that in some of the games with weapons of varying Wex gains, they just aren't very transparent about it. Like in FE7 & 8, Blades, steel Axes/Lances, D rank tomes, Hammers, reaver weapons, and a few others get double weapon exp, and the Devil Axe, and Eclipse tomes get 8x the weapon exp, to give you a reason to use them.

 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

They sort of do that in some of the games with weapons of varying Wex gains, they just aren't very transparent about it. Like in FE7 & 8, Blades, steel Axes/Lances, D rank tomes, Hammers, reaver weapons, and a few others get double weapon exp, and the Devil Axe, and Eclipse tomes get 8x the weapon exp, to give you a reason to use them.

 

Oh yeah, I know that, which is why I feel it strange they have never intentionally implemented something like this. It's true, the Devil Axe gives you a tonne of exp, but that's not the actual purpose of the devil axe. It's how we use it but it's not why it's in the game. You can't use a hammer to grind exp unless you just really really want that S rank, as you're saving the hammer for actual armoured enemies. Clear and dedicated training weapons in easy and abundant supply is what's needed. Having stringent goals in a game isn't bad if you also have the means of reaching those goals. That's the problem with games that have slow growing weapon ranks.

To some extent I think a lot of this applies to supports too, which have also wavered between extremes of too slow to grow and too fast to grow. For that reason I'd probably have to say I like Fateswakenings support growth best as pair up gave you a reliable mechanic to intentionally build supports. For Three Houses and Engage K basically put zero effort into supports and still get pretty much the entire played roster to multiple A ranks.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 4/18/2023 at 12:02 PM, UNLEASH IT said:

After playing Engage, I'd be okay with fixed weapon levels being a series staple. I don't think I'd ever want to grind weapon levels again. 

As a certified Genealogy gameplay enjoyer, I am obligated to support this notion. This was an aspect I could appreciate in the Engage class system. 

On 4/18/2023 at 12:32 PM, Alastor15243 said:

There needs to be a bigger difference from promoting though. I don't want another Jagen who has to use iron weapons because if they gave him anything short of S rank any other lance user could use it.

?

I don't believe any first-tier classes in Engage get higher than B rank in anything. So Vander is the only unit who can use A- and S-rank Axes (at a time when they... don't exist). And by the time you start promoting units (which, in Engage, is roughly five minutes after you start playing), your Jagen's work is done.

So no, the game's design is not especially kind to Vander, but that's not necessarily a symptom of the "fixed weapon ranks" system. They could've given him a Brave Axe or Silver Greataxe, and he'd have a monopoly over it until people start promoting.

Still though, maybe a three-tier system is the answer? Go from Mercenary (C Swords), to Myrmidon (B Swords), to Swordmaster (A Swords). These are each increased by one on units with an innate Sword proficiency, or who use an Arms Seal to increase their rank. With all weapons at C, B, A, or S rank. So your Swordmaster Jagen will start with a much wider pool of options than your freshly-recruited Mercenary.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Oh yeah, I know that, which is why I feel it strange they have never intentionally implemented something like this. It's true, the Devil Axe gives you a tonne of exp, but that's not the actual purpose of the devil axe. It's how we use it but it's not why it's in the game. Clear and dedicated training weapons in easy and abundant supply is what's needed.

How about a "training dummy" that one unit can fight between chapters? Doing so will give them WEXP, but not EXP.

Anyway, if there are high-WEXP-yield training weapons, then they should have atrocious stats. I mean, just godawful. I'm talking "FE4 Thief Sword" territory, except heavier. In 3H they were basically Slim weapons, making them great on dodgetanks, and on units who would get doubled with anything heavier. But if they're for "training", they should be heavier, so the user gets used to swinging that weapon type. Or don't tank the stats, but impose some "Mercy" skill that prevents the user from killing anyone with them.

[Jotari]

51 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As a certified Genealogy gameplay enjoyer, I am obligated to support this notion. This was an aspect I could appreciate in the Engage class system. 

?

I don't believe any first-tier classes in Engage get higher than B rank in anything. So Vander is the only unit who can use A- and S-rank Axes (at a time when they... don't exist). And by the time you start promoting units (which, in Engage, is roughly five minutes after you start playing), your Jagen's work is done.

So no, the game's design is not especially kind to Vander, but that's not necessarily a symptom of the "fixed weapon ranks" system. They could've given him a Brave Axe or Silver Greataxe, and he'd have a monopoly over it until people start promoting.

Still though, maybe a three-tier system is the answer? Go from Mercenary (C Swords), to Myrmidon (B Swords), to Swordmaster (A Swords). These are each increased by one on units with an innate Sword proficiency, or who use an Arms Seal to increase their rank. With all weapons at C, B, A, or S rank. So your Swordmaster Jagen will start with a much wider pool of options than your freshly-recruited Mercenary.

How about a "training dummy" that one unit can fight between chapters? Doing so will give them WEXP, but not EXP.

Anyway, if there are high-WEXP-yield training weapons, then they should have atrocious stats. I mean, just godawful. I'm talking "FE4 Thief Sword" territory, except heavier. In 3H they were basically Slim weapons, making them great on dodgetanks, and on units who would get doubled with anything heavier. But if they're for "training", they should be heavier, so the user gets used to swinging that weapon type. Or don't tank the stats, but impose some "Mercy" skill that prevents the user from killing anyone with them.

Training weapons were some of the best weapons in the game XD their low might was off set by their high durability and low cost making them perfect fodder for combat arts. And their high accuracy also made them one of the more reliable ways to hit evasive enemies.  I'm not sure why they bothered to call them training weapons though. We've seen bronze weapons as a tier below iron before.

In regards to fixed weapon ranks, I'd only want them if there was still some way in increase them. Either through limited arms scrolls or some kind of skill. I couldn't even use half the S ranked weapons in Engage due to my class choices. Genealogy at least had holy blood as a guarantor. I think Engage should have made the emblems have the ability to increase a weapon ranks by 1 tier for their relevant weapon.

[Bylift]

My unpopular opinion:

I can't stand the engage ring mechanics.

[Acacia Sgt]

16 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think Engage should have made the emblems have the ability to increase a weapon ranks by 1 tier for their relevant weapon.

Not a bad idea. That should've been part of the proficiency granting bonuses, in addition for reclassing functions.

Too bad we only have Micaiah granting weapon ranks.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Dark Holy Elf]

21 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't believe any first-tier classes in Engage get higher than B rank in anything. So Vander is the only unit who can use A- and S-rank Axes (at a time when they... don't exist). And by the time you start promoting units (which, in Engage, is roughly five minutes after you start playing), your Jagen's work is done.

So no, the game's design is not especially kind to Vander, but that's not necessarily a symptom of the "fixed weapon ranks" system. They could've given him a Brave Axe or Silver Greataxe, and he'd have a monopoly over it until people start promoting.

 

For what it's worth this has changed since the update, the game added a couple A rank weapons (one of which is an axe, Revanche) which you gain when the Ancient Well updates, so only Vander can use it until others start promoting. Granted, the window between the Ancient Well opening and your first Master Seal is relatively short.

 

Separately: I think weapon exp increasing in battle based entirely on your actions is bad and I'm glad that Three Houses de-emphasized it (training between fights has a greater effect) and Engage got rid of it entirely. It rewards degenerate, grindy behaviour in battles.

[Shadow Mir]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:32 AM, Alastor15243 said:

There needs to be a bigger difference from promoting though. I don't want another Jagen who has to use iron weapons because if they gave him anything short of S rank any other lance user could use it.

What are ya referring to?

RE: Byleth and Three Hopes, I find it weirder that they go from being one of your best units, something which is very likely in Houses, to being well behind everyone else when you get them in Hopes. Especially in Azure Gleam. Their initial class is only advanced tier, too.

On 4/19/2023 at 4:57 PM, Jotari said:

And that's something I kind of appreciate about Fates. All Fire Emblem games have the war being at the start of the game, with a sort of exception of Shadow Dragon. Fates has the conflict being an on going one for a decade by the time Corrin gets involved. There's still some stalemateyness to it with Mikoto's ridiculous peace barrier, but all in all it's a welcomed change of pace for the series.

Even Thracia? Because I'd think that the same war in Genealogy is going on in that game too, only more focused on a specific part of Jugdral. Also, Blazing Blade doesn't go into full-on war iirc.

[Kruggov]

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What are ya referring to?

I think he's referring to Vander starting with an Iron Axe, because if he had anything better, someone like Boucheron could have immediately yoinked it for their own use (except A rank stuff).

15 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

RE: Byleth and Three Hopes, I find it weirder that they go from being one of your best units, something which is very likely in Houses, to being well behind everyone else when you get them in Hopes. Especially in Azure Gleam. Their initial class is only advanced tier, too.

Even worse, Silverheart is intermediate, not advanced. They have to master Silverheart, then Swordmaster to get to EO.

15 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Even Thracia? Because I'd think that the same war in Genealogy is going on in that game too, only more focused on a specific part of Jugdral. Also, Blazing Blade doesn't go into full-on war iirc.

To be honest, the war in Thracia doesn't start until you are halfway through, and you don't even see it until Seliph comes to rescue your ass in chapter 20, because the conflict that is center in Thracia is not what I would call a war.

[Shadow Mir]

20 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Even worse, Silverheart is intermediate, not advanced. They have to master Silverheart, then Swordmaster to get to EO.

Doh >_< That's what I meant.

20 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

To be honest, the war in Thracia doesn't start until you are halfway through, and you don't even see it until Seliph comes to rescue your ass in chapter 20, because the conflict that is center in Thracia is not what I would call a war.

Oh... also, wouldn't Path of Radiance be another game where the war wasn't started from the word go (or at least nit known about immediately, because the first few chapters have Ike and the mercs doing mercenary work, except 2)? Same for Radiant Dawn, where what we see in part 1 at first is mostly the consequences of the Mad King's War, rather than a war.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

45 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Oh... also, wouldn't Path of Radiance be another game where the war wasn't started from the word go (or at least nit known about immediately, because the first few chapters have Ike and the mercs doing mercenary work, except 2)? Same for Radiant Dawn, where what we see in part 1 at first is mostly the consequences of the Mad King's War, rather than a war.

It's Daein's War of Liberation, though. There are two clear sides: the Daein insurgents, and the Begnion occupiers. They smack each other with swords to achieve certain political ends. I'd call that a war.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

For what it's worth this has changed since the update, the game added a couple A rank weapons (one of which is an axe, Revanche) which you gain when the Ancient Well updates, so only Vander can use it until others start promoting. Granted, the window between the Ancient Well opening and your first Master Seal is relatively short.

Interesting, good to know. Haven't played since the update, nor touched the Ancient Well.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Separately: I think weapon exp increasing in battle based entirely on your actions is bad and I'm glad that Three Houses de-emphasized it (training between fights has a greater effect) and Engage got rid of it entirely. It rewards degenerate, grindy behaviour in battles

This captures how I can simultaneously like the "build your ranks up from scratch" system in 3H, and the "fixed ranks per class, with minor personal modifiers" in Genealogy and Engage. They're both very different, but neither one boils down to "use the weapon X many times to get a rank up". I don't think that traditional style is strictly bad, for my part, but I do think it has issues. If you're E-rank, you have nothing to use and it takes forever to improve; whereas, if you're A-rank, you can use almost everything (and soon the legendary weapons), so there's little room to improve or customize. Eh, how to best do weapon ranks it's its own big ol discussion.