What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[ping]

44 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

I find it funny that you use Largo and Calill, and thus PoR as an example here whilst saying characters cannot comment on the current status of the story. PoR is pretty much the oly one that is actually able to do so since the support convo's are locked behind chapters deployed together. So yes, the y actually do reference stuff that has happened in the world. 
You do have a point in the fact that all supports are still optional and do not make the plot unable to move forward if missed, I'm not challenging that. I am challenging your statement that supports are entirely in isolation and cannot comment on the current status. You've got a solid point but it's not as all encompassing as you say (in PoR's system at least)

Good point, and I was considering bringing up PoR as the one example of occasionally integrated supports and main plot. There's not a ton of supports that really make use of it, but it's certainly a proof of feasibility. That said, in practice, PoR is still the *one* example. [Obligatory "I don't know 3H" condition]

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, pong said:

Good point, and I was considering bringing up PoR as the one example of occasionally integrated supports and main plot. There's not a ton of supports that really make use of it, but it's certainly a proof of feasibility. That said, in practice, PoR is still the *one* example. [Obligatory "I don't know 3H" condition]

Three Houses does lock certain support conversations behind completing particular chapters. For example, every a-support, except Byleth and Rhea, can only be seen after the timeskip. Similarly, some of Byleth's support conversations with Edelgard are locked behind completing certain chapters. Speaking as someone whose favourite FE game is Path of Radiance, I thought it was neat that Three Houses essentially brought back that system in a different way.

[NaotoUzumaki]

I agree with less is more if it’s not padding. Characterizing characters requires not just battle but conflict about everything including their slice of life. You can see that growth and fleshed out character when their nemesis attacks their greatest weaknesses. Writing characters who don’t struggle  is just boring. Sylvain and Ingrid have fantastic support because Sylvain feels women uses him for his crest and even flirted with Ingrid grandmother and she called him out on it. Hilda is another because of expectation from her family. Her brother is a war hero and everyone expects great things from her and that why she doesn’t want to go on the battlefield and work in school. Because it would translate to her family knowing she has good results and thus higher expectations from her. Trim unnecessary fluff or words in translation and if you can achieve the same thing you were trying to say the better. There is no reason a C support should be a 2 parter between C and B support. I’d rather write a fanfic chapter of about 1500 words with quality and quantity over 4500 words that basically are the same but padded 

[Eltosian Kadath]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

You can tell what kind of people Tobin gets along with just by his demeanor and the kinds of people he already gets along with already. You can't even tell what king of person Stahl would fall in love with because he can marry basically anyone woman recruited in the first half of the game.

I think you have hit on a really important part of why people suggest less supports here, that who each character has a support with, tells you something about their character. You lose something when characters can support with everyone, there is no sense that characters have enough of a personality to have a preference in whom they become friends/lovers with, and you never have that mystery of why certain characters might have supports together that can really draw you into seeking some odd ones out. Three Houses is a bit better then the Awakening/Fates in this regard, as not every male-female pair can marry, giving characters at least a sense that they have a sexual preference other than simply gender,  and some can end earlier than others, as a poor imitation of showing their preference in friendship, but you still have every member of a house able to support with every other member of that house...

 

21 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

FE has long been a series that respects that different players may want to approach it differently (it did both scene-skip and difficulty modes before the vast majority of other RPG series), and that absolutely includes "do you want to watch supports or not". If they're not for you, skip 'em - the game is better for giving you this option, even if I personally greatly enjoyed them.

This "don't watch them if they aren't for you" argument always falls flat for me. I like support, willing to grind them out even in the GBA games just to get the chance to see them, but the way they have been done in recent games have been bad, and its hard not to see what is bad about them is caused by how many of them are shoved at you. A lot of times they have to fall back on repetition to pad them out, which makes characters more one note. Watching the same basic tropes playing out again, and again, because they needed to show that off in 70% of the C supports makes that overshadow any interesting fleshing out the writers are hiding in the better supports, and make what good there is seem like accidental flukes then part of the character. Wanting them to edit the number of supports down to the ones worth seeing would be far better.

To sum up my feeling on the topic, its more about having the right number of supports then necessarily "less or more", but in Awakening, Fates, and Three Houses, they clearly have too many. Adding more bad to read through to find what is good doesn't improve characters, it hurts them, and often works towards making characters less fleshed out than a more curated number of supports would.

[Etrurian emperor]

Never count Tobin out!

Yeah I'd say there's more to Tobin that his feelings of inferiority. That he's unfailingly loyal to a boy he's jealous of speaks rather well of him. There also seems somewhat of a curious duality between Tobin on one hand being the most cynical of the Ran boys while on the other hand also seemingly the innocent one of the group, the one likeliest to get flustered and who's not really respected as much as the others. Both his support with Kliff as well as him working to provide for his siblings also imply a more nurturing side of him.

[Dark Holy Elf]

10 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

This "don't watch them if they aren't for you" argument always falls flat for me. I like support, willing to grind them out even in the GBA games just to get the chance to see them, but the way they have been done in recent games have been bad, and its hard not to see what is bad about them is caused by how many of them are shoved at you. A lot of times they have to fall back on repetition to pad them out, which makes characters more one note.

Repetition is an issue, but it's not unique (or even necessarily more common) in the more recent games. For example, Shanna's C supports with Lott and Ward are two of the most repetitive I can think of in the series.

Quantity is not quality. I don't like 3H because it has the most supports (if it even does; Awakening and/or Fates might have more, I haven't counted); I like it because it has (IMO) the best supports. We agree on wanting the highest support quality and that this matters more than quantity; we just disagree on which games feature the higher quality. But beyond that, having at least some quantity is certainly useful. For what it's worth I would tend to agree that the GBA games and PoR probably have "enough" support quantity to effective develop the supporting cast (although in GBA's case, their method of acquisition and in many cases quality leaves much to be desired), but many other games in the series have a low enough quantity that the supporting cast starts to feel shallow.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I know Tobin's name has come up a few times as a positive "less is more" example, but... he's really not. The thing is, his characterization comes not just from supports, but also having a continuous role in the story. Since he's a forced recruit, he (alongside Gray) can serve as the "peanut gallery" to Alm. How do we feel instead about characters who don't receive this privilege, like Kliff or Genny? Do we learn enoigh from their currently limited support options, or would adding more supports shed more light on their characters?

Anyway, here's the take: since Three Houses' supports are fully voiced, they take more time to get through (and thereby feel more like a chore) than Fateswakening supports of similar text length. I, for one, appreciate the chance to wash dishes or fold laundry while putting a support on auto-play. Feels like a real conversation between characters in a TV show I might choose to watch.

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 12/19/2021 at 5:22 PM, Sunwoo said:

And yeah, while gameplay is obviously the most important factor in a game, I've failed to finish one FE game path because the story pissed me off too much, and failed to finish another path because I got bored and the new TWEWY existed. Story and character are important enough to me to give me motivation to finish the game, especially if the gameplay isn't the most amazing thing in the world.

So I take it you didn't finish NEO then?

No, I'm not that severe with NEO TWEWY. Though personally, the plot never fully recovered from the implosion it suffered mid-late into the game. I came to terms with the schmaltzy way the story chose to end itself. The characters... not the best cast around, and it feels weird that I like certain characters that I do. Gameplay was calling out for more enemy variety after a point.

I enjoyed it tho', which amazed me after my mixed "I regret that I liked it" feelings that had I developed towards the original TWEWY. I dare not call NEO bad. Yet like the original, NEO was a strange case of "more than the sum of its parts".

 

(I know, general Fire Emblem board. Hence me holding off on posting that until I had something substantial and on-topic to comment on. Speaking of which...)

36 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

know Tobin's name has come up a few times as a positive "less is more" example, but... he's really not. The thing is, his characterization comes not just from supports, but also having a continuous role in the story. 

Haar sprung to mind seeing this. If you read Haar's two support chains in PoR, his Jill is lackluster, and the Makalov is downright bad.

And yet, Haar has a following in the fanbase. How? It's through everything except his supports. His main story dialogue primarily found in PoR, his Base Conversations in RD, and his RD-leaning excellent boss conversations. And Haar is not at all a main character, unlike my aforementioned liking for Skrimir, he gets this despite being thoroughly a peon. -And it doesn't hurt he's top-tier in RD, though quantifying how much gameplay godliness raises a character's popularity is somewhat speculative.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I know Tobin's name has come up a few times as a positive "less is more" example, but... he's really not. The thing is, his characterization comes not just from supports, but also having a continuous role in the story. Since he's a forced recruit, he (alongside Gray) can serve as the "peanut gallery" to Alm. How do we feel instead about characters who don't receive this privilege, like Kliff or Genny? Do we learn enoigh from their currently limited support options, or would adding more supports shed more light on their characters?

Anyway, here's the take: since Three Houses' supports are fully voiced, they take more time to get through (and thereby feel more like a chore) than Fateswakening supports of similar text length. I, for one, appreciate the chance to wash dishes or fold laundry while putting a support on auto-play. Feels like a real conversation between characters in a TV show I might choose to watch.

I'd say the unlock method is an aspect for Three Houses too. Unlike previous games where you build a cast slowly, Three Houses gives you almost your entire cast right away. Meaning most of the supports are going to come at once. And the game is so generous with support points you frequently some how unlock supports with characters you aren't even actively using. People would probably complain about Path if Radiance's support pool if they automatically unlocked the supports of every benched character too. Even without full army supporting it'd likely be a lot to read inbetween each chapter.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Never count Tobin out!

Yeah I'd say there's more to Tobin that his feelings of inferiority. That he's unfailingly loyal to a boy he's jealous of speaks rather well of him. There also seems somewhat of a curious duality between Tobin on one hand being the most cynical of the Ran boys while on the other hand also seemingly the innocent one of the group, the one likeliest to get flustered and who's not really respected as much as the others. Both his support with Kliff as well as him working to provide for his siblings also imply a more nurturing side of him.

You can get all that out of Tobin’s supports which are more one dimensional than Cordelia’s chest yet you can’t understand the themes of Fates’s story even though it blatently explains it to you every five minutes. Like I know I say this a lot but Fire Emblem stories aren’t exactly subtle. Fates especially beats you over the head with its themes every chance it gets. Like I was just replaying conquest recently and it really isn’t that subtle. I mean it’s not as blunt as Naruto or Persona 5 but it’s definitely close.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Ottservia

[NaotoUzumaki]

True blunt isn’t an issue if the evidence point the player towards it. Zelda does it and it can work. Although beating over the head with it is the issue. It like navi “ yes I know what my next objective is you dumb dumb I just wanna sidequest. So treating your player like a moron is the problem. Which begs if that features is for Five year olds and if it is they won’t understand your story even if you beat them with it repeatedly so yeah….

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

True blunt isn’t an issue if the evidence point the player towards it. Zelda does it and it can work. Although beating over the head with it is the issue. It like navi “ yes I know what my next objective is you dumb dumb I just wanna sidequest. So treating your player like a moron is the problem. Which begs if that features is for Five year olds and if it is they won’t understand your story even if you beat them with it repeatedly so yeah….

I’m not even just talking about tutorials. At the end of conquest Xander outright directly states the point of his character arc word for word and yet people still don’t understand the point of his character like come on it’s all right there.

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You can get all that out of Tobin’s supports which are more one dimensional than Cordelia’s chest yet you can’t understand the themes of Fates’s story even though it blatently explains it to you every five minutes. Like I know I say this a lot but Fire Emblem stories aren’t exactly subtle. Fates especially beats you over the head with its themes every chance it gets. Like I was just replaying conquest recently and it really isn’t that subtle. I mean it’s not as blunt as Naruto or Persona 5 but it’s definitely close.

Not from Tobin's supports. From the many times that he popped up in the main story. And no, I'd say criticizing things like Corrin being overly perfect yet simultaneously overly bumbling, blood siblings carrying letters from mom saying its okay to sleep with them and Garon being Garon has more to do with those things being very questionable rather than ''not understanding them''

Edited December 21, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Ottservia]

7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Not from Tobin's supports. From the many times that he popped up in the main story. And no, I'd say criticizing things like Corrin being overly perfect yet simultaneously overly bumbling, blood siblings carrying letters from mom saying its okay to sleep with them and Garon being Garon has more to do with those things being very questionable rather than ''not understanding them''

I mean the fact that you criticize Garon and Corrin’s writing at all just proves to me that you did not get the point. Then again you can’t even understand the point of Naruto’s story and Naruto is even more blunt than fates in its messaging to the point of spelling it out for you every single arc

Edited December 21, 2021 by Ottservia

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean the fact that you criticize Garon and Corrin’s writing at all just proves to me that you did not get the point. Then again you can’t even understand the point of Naruto’s story and Naruto is even more blunt than fates in its messaging to the point of spelling it out for you every single arc

Come on now, Ottservia, that's not conductive to debate. You're devolving to petty insults. Try to say something that could actually move the argument along rather than the equivalent of "You're stupid and wrong."

[Ottservia]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Come on now, Ottservia, that's not conductive to debate. You're devolving to petty insults. Try to say something that could actually move the argument along rather than the equivalent of "You're stupid and wrong."

Maybe I would if people actually acknowledged my points instead of dismissing them on the grounds of “fates bad so of course it can’t have anything meaningful to say” or whatever. Like it’s one thing to criticize it’s another thing entirely to be unreasonably dismissive towards it. And this is why I hate pseudo intellectuals.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Ottservia

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Maybe I would if people actually acknowledged my points instead of dismissing them on the grounds of “fates bad so of course it can’t have anything meaningful to say” or whatever. Like it’s one thing to criticize it’s another thing entirely to be unreasonably dismissive towards it. And this is why I hate pseudo intellectuals.

If this keeps happening to you you should possibly consider that your arguments just aren't as great as you think they are. Because not addressing any points and saying "You just don't get it, man" is a lot more dismissive than anything Etrurian Emperor said.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If this keeps happening to you you should possibly consider that your arguments just aren't as great as you think they are.

Right who’s the one resorting to insults now? Maybe it’s because people refuse that there’s the possibility that I maybe have a point but no of course not how could I? Fates is terrible after all. There’s no way it could possibly have a deeper meaning or message it wants to say. It’s all plot holes and plot contrivances that the writers are using to manipulate your emotions. But SoV? Oh no that shit is great because it doesn’t have those stupid anime tropes. It saved the franchise from the blight that was Fates. The characters are so much better because they’re not anime tropes and obviously anime tropey characters are all super shallow and can’t have anything deeper to them and anyone who relates to them are just horny or not thinking critical enough. God the double standards in this fanbase make me angry. I’ve had enough of this pseudo intellectual bullshit

[Jotari]

Just now, Ottservia said:

Right who’s the one resorting to insults now? Maybe it’s because people refuse that there’s the possibility that I maybe have a point but no of course not how could I? Fates is terrible after all. There’s no way it could possibly have a deeper meaning or message it wants to say. It’s all plot holes and plot contrivances that the writers are using to manipulate your emotions. But SoV? Oh no that shit is great because it doesn’t have those stupid anime tropes. It saved the franchise from the blight that was Fates. The characters are so much better because they’re not anime tropes and obviously anime tropey characters are all super shallow and can’t have anything deeper to them and anyone who relates to them are just horny or not thinking critical enough. God the double standards in this fanbase make me angry. I’ve had enough of this pseudo intellectual bullshit

I'm not resorting to insults. I'm trying to help you, and more generally help the debate.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not resorting to insults. I'm trying to help you, and more generally help the debate.

You know maybe I would believe you if you didn’t sound so condescending about it but I think this discussion has gone on long enough 

[Jotari]

13 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You know maybe I would believe you if you didn’t sound so condescending about it but I think this discussion has gone on long enough 

How could I deliver the same information in a manner that would sound less condescending to you?

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Because not addressing any points and saying "You just don't get it, man" is a lot more dismissive than anything Etrurian Emperor said.

I’ve already addressed those same points numerous times in the past. Has he listened to them? No of course he hasn’t because he keeps making the same dumb arguments I’ve already debunked multiple times. Also it’s not like you’re much better in this regard. You’re rather dismissive of my arguments too. As I said before, how could my arguments hold any water when everyone knows fates is terrible? Like of course Fates can’t have deeper themes or messages. It’s all garbage. Actually meeting the story on it’s own terms and analyzing it for what it wants to say instead of dismissing on the grounds of popular concensus and subjective opinion? Pfffft fuck that that’s for losers. Why would I ever want to do that. The writers are all incompetent anyway who have no idea what they’re doing and I’m simply smarter than them.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Ottservia

[Benice]

28 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

’ve already addressed those same points numerous times in the past. Has he listened to them? No of course he hasn’t because he keeps making the same dumb arguments I’ve already debunked multiple times.

In that case, why do you think that the general population considers Fates to have a weaker story than Awakening and Three Houses? I know a lot of people who loved Awakening, didn't enjoy Fates, didn't know SoV existed, and then adored Three Houses and considered it a strong return to the series. I'm not trying to make an argument against you; I've just not played Fates and I'd like to hear why you think people dislike it in comparison to its peers.

I personally do not know if it is simply a hate train, but I kind of doubt it to an extent, given that people outside the fanbase had a smilar, if less extreme, reaction to Fates' plot or characters.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Benice

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean the fact that you criticize Garon and Corrin’s writing at all just proves to me that you did not get the point. Then again you can’t even understand the point of Naruto’s story and Naruto is even more blunt than fates in its messaging to the point of spelling it out for you every single arc

Kindly refrain from making things weirdly personal when an attempt of doing so got you egg on your face in the not so distant past. 

I like to think I've been one of the posters who went more in debt as to why Garon was made such an awful character so I hope you'll excuse me if I don't take guesses of me ''not getting the point'' to heart. I've speculated quite a lot on what Garon's point was. That it proceeded to be not particularly flattering diminishes nothing of that. 

Its honestly not particularly hard to see a very recurring trend between Validar, Garon and Thales and draw conclusions from that. Especially between Garon and Thales because they seem explicitly used to ensure the protagonists hands stay as clean as possible. Kind of an implication that the idea of a murky protagonists makes IS nervous huh?

And yeah. It must also have been a rather off putting lack of ambition in writing villains, and a lack of interest towards Garon in particular that made Garon the boring dolt that he is. Its very easy to write for a character who's vocabulary only consists of ''shut up' and ''or I'll kill you''. That they set up a villain like Travant and then got bored and decided to settle Evil Macvillainston does imply some unflattering things.  

Edited December 21, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[joevar]

poor @Jotari, his effort to mediate been wasted.

not even his last question, asking how to be even more polite is answered

 

can we move on to another "unpopular opinion" ?

or just continue this argument that's been repeated numerous times and in several different thread?

@Ottservia are you sure you're "reading between the lines" not 'filling in the blanks" in that topic? if its the former, the moment you point out something, people will get it.
but you already admit it yourself "people dont get it". so its likely the latter, which no matter what, people wont get it, since other people are not you, didnt read what you already read, see, hear, etc that they will not reach the same conclusion unless its the fact.

-----------------------------

its almost similar if im trying to convince people that Roy is one of best protagonist in FE since i can fill in his "supposed characterization, motivation, etc" since i can relate to similar premise in another medium to draw conclusion it should be the same. you know what will happen then

Edited December 21, 2021 by joevar