New banners announced: Alm's Army/Celica's Army

[Silith13]

Whales are the true disease spreaders. But not to Greenland.

[Kaden]

1 hour ago, Lushen said:

All archers fall into one build category - Brave Bow+. 

Niles says hi and so do Faye, Rebecca, and even Gordin, Takumi, and Virion running counter builds.

Niles is the safest archer for mage countering because of his high resistance followed by Faye who gets doubled, but hits harder and Rebecca who doesn't get doubled as much like Niles and hits harder, but has lower resistance. Killer Bow, Fury 3, Quick Riposte, and Iceberg. The only change now is Killer Bow is obsolete with Slaying Bow taking its place.

Joining Gordin, Virion, and Takumi will probably be Leon running Close Counter, Quick Riposte physical builds. Killer Bow and Bonfire works for Gordin, but it's a bit weaker I think because of Killer Bow's pitiful MT. Silver Bow or Fujin Yumi for Takumi and Moonbow get more results if I recall correctly. The issue with this is Close Counter where Takumi already exists and is on par or better than Gordin and Virion running Silver Bow, Moonbow, Close Counter and Quick Riposte. This might change when Gordin and possibly Leon will have access to Slaying Bow+ which has 12 MT, 1 less MT than Silver Bow+ and 3 more MT than Killer Bow+, letting them use Bonfire or maybe Ignis since Gordin's pretty slow.

Gordin has 32 neutral defense, but using Killer Bow means he's stuck with a weapon that caps at 9 MT, but Slaying Bow+? 12 MT bow and 16 fixed damage from Bonfire on top of his average for an archer, 31 neutral attack. Heck, even Virion and maybe Takumi could work with Slaying Bow+ and Luna better. In Virion's case, he'd trade 1 MT for Luna instead of having Moonbow.

Y'know, at this point, there's almost no reason to use Silver weapons when the Slaying and anti-armor weapons exist let alone the gem weapons can just have Attack +3 or Fury 3 to make up the damage for Silver weapons.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kaden

[Lushen]

14 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Niles says hi and so do Faye, Rebecca, and even Gordin, Takumi, and Virion running counter builds.

I have never seen a Niles in arena.  Same goes for Faye, Rebecca, and Gordin.  I know Virion can be good, buy my understanding is he needs a rediculous amount of investment.  What I was saying is Takumi's class will likely be replaced by Leon.  Takumi's stats aren't very good for what his weapon and CC seem to suggest he should be doing, he doesn't have enough defense.  

Niles is like Felicia.  He's very good at killing mages (and maybe dragons), but that's pretty much it.  You can make any unit good at something, but the fact is Brave Bow Cordelia, Summer!Gaius, and Klein have significantly more utility.  We were in a situation where they kept releasing better and better Brave Bow units (Setsuna/Jeorge -> Klein -> Bride!Cordelia = Summer!Gaius), what I was saying is we might finally have a unit that has a unique class that can still offer as much utility, not that the others weren't there or didn't have any use what so ever. 

The CLASS of counter builds was always there, but we haven't had a unit that actually excels at it.  It's kind of like how Kagero is our best poison dagger unit, but they could very easily make a unit twice as good as her at using Poison dagger.  

 

As for silver weapons, I don't think they were ever really intended to be viable.  I always assumed they were intended to be budget weapons that everyone has easy access to if you don't have a god-tier weapon available.  I know some builds benefit from Silver Lance, but I don't think that was intended.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Lushen

[Othin]

40 minutes ago, XRay said:

Silver Weapons are not exclusives, but they are a requirement to get exclusive Weapons.

Usually. To my knowledge, there are two characters who have exclusive weapons preceded by a non-silver weapon: Ephraim, who gets a Heavy Spear instead, and Eldigan, who gets a Killing Edge. Ironically, both are 5* exclusive so it doesn't matter.

[XRay]

37 minutes ago, Sire said:

Slayer Weapons are a straight upgrade to Killer Weapons, period. Both are inheritable, and Slayer Weapons are introduced on a new character. At least the Wo Dao had different functionality, even if it was "better" than vanilla Killer Weapons. From my perspective, this is outright power creep.

The increase to 14 MT also calls for viability for Silver Weapons. Their main point was being 15 MT with no modifiers. With "Horseslayers" and "Slayer (Killer ++++)" being 14 MT with effects, there is no reason to run vanilla Silver Weapons any more because the loss of 1 MT is nothing compared to the effects gained. I guess there will be "Gold" weapons next that have 18 MT, making Silver Weapons pointless.

I don't mind narrowing the gap between inheritable weapons and exclusive weapons. I don't mind that exclusives are slightly better than their counterparts. My main problem is that this sets a precedent and it ticks me off to no end. Why even build something if something better will come down the line and just replace it?

I don't mind the game being balanced over time, but doing so with a brand new item that completely invalidates the previous one is BS. Maybe I have my expectations in the wrong place, I came into FE: Heroes to have fun with my favorite Fire Emblem characters and create fun builds. If I wanted to run a "gear treadmill," I'll play an MMO or something.

As far as I am concerned, this is one of the worst developments to Fire Emblem Heroes. If this is the road the game wishes to follow, then I'm likely done. I can not support this method of balancing by introducing something new that invalidates the old. From a balancing perspective, they could have just changed the values in-game (update Killer Weapons with the new Slayer values) with patch notes and the like, but what do I know about Gacha games. Perhaps this is just the norm and I am a madman spouting nonsense that has no business playing these types of titles. /rant

Power creep refers to a rising ceiling. It does not refer to less viable units or builds being more viable. Cancel Affinity, for example could be an example of power creep since that affects Reinhardt and B!Cordelia, two of the strongest characters in game. Reinhardt and B!Cordelia represent power creep when they were released. Making Enemy Phase builds more viable, but still less powerful than Player Phase builds, is not power creep. Slayer Weapons do not change the meta game, while Cancel Affinity can.

Assuming Nintendo will not embrace power creep, there is nothing to worry about. Slayer Weapons and a Special together cost like 1,200 (750+450) from scratch, and running Chain Challenges repeatedly should rack enough SP quickly. The underlying build principle for Enemy Phase units is still the same, as Distant Counter and Quick Riposte are still the best Enemy Phase skills, only the Weapon is different and maybe the Special.

Fire Emblem Heroes is a lot better than many gacha games. Outside of Reinhardt and B!Cordelia, I do not think there are any other moments of power creep. Even Reinhardt and B!Cordelia still have their limits, although Cancel Affinity might change that.

Just now, Othin said:

Usually. To my knowledge, there are two characters who have exclusive weapons preceded by a non-silver weapon: Ephraim, who gets a Heavy Spear instead, and Eldigan, who gets a Killing Edge. Ironically, both are 5* exclusive so it doesn't matter.

Ah. I did not realize they used a different third tier Weapon.

[DLNarshen]

I want to think the introduction of physical horse killing weapons is more for the AI's benefit than the player's.  Horse Emblem has trivialized most challenge maps so far, and these will give IS a bit more flexibility when designing future GHBs, Bound Battles, etc. 

[Lushen]

 

Just now, DLNarshen said:

I want to think the introduction of physical horse killing weapons is more for the AI's benefit than the player's.  Horse Emblem has trivialized most challenge maps so far, and these will give IS a bit more flexibility when designing future GHBs, Bound Battles, etc. 

Good point.  I bet IS was getting annoyed when they craft these really difficult maps and people just horse emblem them in 10 seconds.

[Silith13]

And these horseslayer weapons won't nessecarily make them harder for the rest of us who play... "regualar builds".

[Kaden]

@Lushen, more of pointing out that not all archer builds are Brave Bow+ with the occasional Firesweep Bow+.

Anyway, checking to see how much of an impact Slaying Bow would have.

For the Close Counter, Quick Riposte, and *insert special here* build and against everyone with Fury 3...

Spoiler

+Atk, -Spd Gordin gets 73 wins, 44 losses, and 29 draws with Silver Bow+ and Bonfire. Killer Bow+ and Ignis gets 71 wins, 46 draws, and 29 draws. A simulated Slaying Bow+ (basically +3 to attack) with Ignis gets 78 wins, 44 losses, and 24 draws. Putting him on a defense tile with a Slaying Bow+ and Ignis would get him 100 wins, 20 losses, and 26 draws with Gordin not taking a lot of damage from physical units -- magic still destroys him as usual. Silver Bow+ and Bonfire gets 87 wins, 20 losses, and 39 draws on a defense tile. Gordin really wants Slaying Bow+ so he can use Ignis and his high defense. If Leon has similar attack and defense to Gordin, he could probably pull off similar results.

+Atk, -Res Takumi gets 76 wins, 32 losses, and 38 draws with Fujin Yumi and Moonbow. Killer Bow+ and Luna drops him to 61 wins, 33 losses, and 52 draws. Slaying Bow+ and Luna would give him 80 wins, 32 losses, and 34 draws. On a defense tile, Takumi with Slaying Bow+ and Luna would get 97 wins, 14 losses, and 35 draws. Fujin Yumi would get him 91 wins, 14 losses, and 41 draws. Not worth it for Takumi since Fujin Yumi would still be better in general compared to Slaying Bow+ if Takumi got +4 attack. Slaying Bow+ only beats Fujin Yumi if Takumi is on a defense tile and receives +4 attack, but by 1 win. Also, it's Takumi, still once of the best archers in the game, especially on offense.

+Atk, -Res Virion gets 65 wins, 29 losses, and 52 draws with Silver Bow+ and Moonbow. Killer Bow+ and Luna gets 60 wins, 30 losses, and 56 draws. Slaying Bow+ and Luna gets 77 wins, 29 losses, and 40 draws. On a defense tile, Slaying Bow+ and Luna gets 92 wins, 12 losses, and 42 draws. Silver Bow+ and Moonbow gets 77 wins, 12 losses, and 57 draws. In Virion's case, Slaying Bow+ is superior in all cases i.e. Virion getting +4 to attack still means Slaying Bow+ is better.

For the mage counter build of Killer Bow+, Fury 3, Quick Riposte, and Iceberg against all mages with Fury 3...

Spoiler

+Atk, -Spd Faye gets 36 wins, 0 losses, and 4 draws. If she had Slaying Bow+, 37 wins, 0 losses, and 3 draws. Do note she's the slowest of the mage counter archers, so she might end up taking more damage despite having good resistance and higher HP than Niles and Rebecca. Defense tiles, of course, can help with this.

+Atk, -Def Niles gets 31 wins, 0 losses, and 9 draws. If he had Slaying Bow+, 35 wins, 0 losses, and 5 draws. Probably the safest of the archers because of his high resistance and speed. He really wants that extra +3 attack from Slaying Bow+.

+Atk, -Def Rebecca gets 33 wins, 0 losses, and 7 draws. If she had Slaying Bow+, 36 wins, 0 losses, and 4 draws. Higher attack than Niles and higher speed than Faye, but the lowest resistance of the three. Also, she use Luna instead of Iceberg which gets the same results for her.

If Leon ends up with good mixed bulk and decent attack, he could possibly run a build that covers both mages and physical units. He'd be the defensive archer if that were the case. Probably not going to happen since I there wouldn't be enough stat points to do that as a normal ranged unit.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kaden

[Anime27Arts]

I can say I'm honestly surprised at the presence of Mahtilda and Sonia but I'm not complaining. I was honestly expecting Kliff and Valbar in their place.  I sure didn't realize that Mahtilda was that popular with anyone besides me. Her and Gray were my favorites from Alm's side while Boey and Leon were my favorites from Celica's route. I hope I can just hurry and get one summer unit for collection purposes so I can get Mahtilda. At least I like Delthea and won't get upset if I get her instead like what happened last time I fished for blue units. Thanks IS for the very nice birthday gift. 

[Xaos Steel Wing]

I don't really use Triangle Adept outside of maybe one GHB. So while people seem to be freaking out over it, I'm completely unaffected.

It does remove some counters / bait units to the most overpowered unit in the game, which is unfortunate...

As for Reinhardt counters... lately I've been using Reinhardt myself on offense. It seems that the best Reinhardt counter... is Reinhardt himself!

Previously, I'd use Soren (without TA) to counter Rein.

Slaying weapons feel like power creep, yet I really don't think they actually are, because at the high end, no one really used killing weapons. The 14 mt does encroach on Silver weapon's 15mt... but unique legendary weapons are 16mt, so that's the ceiling. It's not like they can go higher than 16mt, lest they instantly powercreep everything in one fell swoop. Maybe it adds more options for characters who don't have access to a legendary weapon, making those characters more viable. Is that really a bad thing?

Also, at the moment, it will take a sacrifice of a 5* unit to inherit the Slaying weapons...And we don't yet know if they'll be set to 4* after the banner ends either.

31 minutes ago, DLNarshen said:

I want to think the introduction of physical horse killing weapons is more for the AI's benefit than the player's.  Horse Emblem has trivialized most challenge maps so far, and these will give IS a bit more flexibility when designing future GHBs, Bound Battles, etc. 

There's something to that line of thought.

The greatest problem when it comes to horses is actually mounted mages... and melee anti-cavalry weapons don't actually address that problem. Unless you dance your anti-cavalry unit to the mounted mage... but if you were to do that, there's plenty of units that could take care of the mounted mages with WTA anyway without requiring an anti-cavalry weapon.

[Jave]

Seeing Clive among the enemies in one map made me hope that he's part of a new batch of a dozen free rotational units. Lord knows we're long overdue that. 

[Kaden]

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Keep Fiore DeRosa away from this game! The last thing we need is him melting half the cast into a cauldron of cologne.

I sided with DeRosa in Bravely Second. I wanted the Thief asterisk; I did not agree with DeRosa.

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As for people expressing concerns about a red mage shortage, more Jugdral or Tellius would be best for fixing this. Tormod and Calill are in RD explicitly Fire Sages (wonder if they'd give the former anything to allude to his Celerity). Jugdral would be the absolute best shot though- Arvis is mega important to the plot and has Valfame, and Azelle could give a red rider. For Thracia, if they wanted to be creative with Saias, they could opt against making him a Staff or Light user and instead give him Valflame too. And Miranda, an Est and thus infinitely lovable by casual standards, starts with her Fire rank being by far her highest (and she too promotes to Mage Knight).

This is more of a personal problem rather than an everyone's problem. There are 10 blue mages with Delthea's introduction -- would be 11 if Bruno was playable -- and 2 of whom are seasonal, bride Caeda and spring Lucina, 9 green mages with Sonya's introduction -- would be 10 if Veronica were playable -- 1 of whom is seasonal and the only flying mage, spring Camilla, and 9 red mages with everyone knowing Aversa would probably be a regular flying red mage. Seems all right at the moment even if there's only 1 green and 1 red mounted mage compared to the 2 sword fliers, 3 axe cavaliers, 1 summonable sword knight -- at least Zephiel is regularly available --, and axe knights not having a 3* to 4* summon, another 4* to 5* summon, or a GHB axe knight.

For me, the only red mages I've summoned are two Raighs both being +HP, -Res for some reason -- yeah, I'll stick with starter Raigh, thank you very much --, five to six Sophias all of whom had terrible boons and banes -- many were -Atk or -Spd and with some not so great boon -- with me being stupid early on and ignoring boons and banes leaving me stuck with a -Atk 4* Sophia that I merged the special map Sophias into until a Sacred Seal? quest Sophia was available, and one 3* Henry from my 45th out of 46 total summons who's +Def, -Atk. My luck with red mages is absolutely atrocious. I have never summoned Celica, Katarina, Leo, Lilina, Sanaki, or Tharja except in re-rolls way back then. Meanwhile, MEANWHILE, two Lindes in one summon, 5* Mae, two 4* Reinhardts, a bunch of Odins, +Atk, -Res 3* M!Robin to make up for +Def, -Atk 4* M!Robin for blues and 4* Merric, +Spd, -Def being my first Nino after coming home on this file -- had her as one of my first file before I re-rolled for a Selena --, and two 5* Sorens within summons of each other with the second being +Spd, -Res for greens. I would not be surprised if I get Delthea or Sonya. I like them, but a different red mage would be useful -- having more options is never bad.

Green mages with high defense and low(er) resistance like Boey, Merric, and Veronica have traumatized me. 33 speed Boey with his high defense showing up on a lunatic run was not a fun thing to deal with in this current trials. RIP using units like Lucina to brute force my way through. Just give me another Henry, game... I concede, I'll give Sophia G Tomebreaker... At least I'll have a red mage to counter green mages while being able to keep a Henry. ;_;

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kaden

[Lushen]

18 minutes ago, Xaos Steel Wing said:

I don't really use Triangle Adept outside of maybe one GHB. So while people seem to be freaking out over it, I'm completely unaffected.

Problem is there are units literally based around TA.  For example, dancers are best used with ruby/saphire/emerald/Triangle Adept because they aren't very good units so they need a bit of help from triangle advantage.

Tanks are the biggest issue, imo.  Tanks used to take ~0dmg when they were against the right colored unit.

Additionally, there is some concern (from me) that units like Robin and other raven users (like my Spring!Camilla) will lose a lot of utillity.  Even if this skill is not available to nocolors, it means Robin will not be effective against all reds anymore.

5 minutes ago, Jave said:

Seeing Clive among the enemies in one map made me hope that he's part of a new batch of a dozen free rotational units. Lord knows we're long overdue that. 

Doubtful.  He will probably be the GHB after Berkut.  

They're not going to make new unis go straight into the free rotation as freebies, they would lose out on so much money.  If they do change the rotational units (which I don't know why they would), it would be with older units.  I don't think they should change up the rotational units because they're no meant to be good for veteran players.  They're supposed to say, 'hey, here's some units that should cover all the basics if you don't get lucky with your pulls'.  GHBs provide the same function.  

[DehNutCase]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's definitely not anything similar.

Over-centralization of the meta limits team-building by invalidating entire team compositions and play styles and forcing dedicated counters to a small number of specific threats. An individual unit being not viable doesn't do this.

Hyper offense and OHKO Vantage shenanigans being the only viable strategies is not a healthy meta.

By 'Selena not being viable' I was referring to the whole class of people with Selena's spread. Odin also counts. Mind, if you're willing to invest in the 14 MT killer, Fury 3 Selena's spread is actually good enough to get ~60 kills on offense with Bonfire, or ~75 with quick pulse Ignis, which is fairly decent. So the patch is more like a buff to certain defensive units (the ones who rely on sheer stats in the A-slot) and a nerf to others (the ones who rely on TA-3).

Highly defensive units like Odin have been getting better with things like Panic seal, though, since his high HP lets him win the -blade mirror. Shield pulse + 14 MT killer should also mean that people running weird stuff like Escutcheon Killer QR gets more viable. (Or Aegis/Sacred Cowl DC QR vs. ranged.)

On the note:

+0 +Spd/-Def Sheena (-Hp Also works) with DC, 14 MT killer, Aegis, and Shield pulse takes 16 damage from +10 levels, DB 3, +Atk, Moonbow Pulse Reinhardt, and doubles back for the KO. Atk seal Rein only manages 12 damage, so Sheena tanks 16 + 12 +12 = 40 < 45 3 Reinhardts without buffs, and Sheena has the raw hp to panic ploy off all of Reinhardt's horse buffs. (If Sheena gets Fortify and Reinhardt doesn't have Hone, or gets panic'c Hone, he's doing either 5 damage or 0, which is low enough that Sheena can 2RKO and still be fine vs. a whole team.)

Again, it feels more like a metagame shift than anything else. Some tanky builds suffer but others get buffed from the Killer & Shield Pulse change.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Compare your list to something like the list of counters for, say, Xander:

• Any fast mage with Desperation (minus green if Triangle Adept)
• Any mage with Blarblade+ (minus green if Triangle Adept)
• Any blue mage or dragon with Triangle Adept
• Any bulky, strong blue physical unit
• And a bunch of other things

No one bothers bringing a counter for Xander because he's pretty low tier on a defense team (and in general, if I'm being perfectly honest). Camus has all of his enemy phase and about octuple his player phase. In this regard, the Tier List, as always, is a complete joke with Xander being 1 tier above Camus when Camus should've been 1 or 2 tiers above Xander. L&D Vantage Camus is terrifying on offense while being strong enough to OHKO Fury 3 Linde.

Even Hector is more bothersome than Xander because they have basically the same player phase (Xander has the mobility to reach things but the shittiest player phase matchups imaginable, thanks to 32/24 offenses, when Selena has better player phase than you, you've failed as a unit), but Hector has the spread, the Prf, and an open B-slot to be terrifying with Vantage, so he's far better on enemy phase.

 

Reinhardt is about 3 or 4 tiers above Xander as a unit, if I'm being perfectly honest, so it's only natural that he has far less counters. Same goes for Reinhardt v. Dragons, if Reinhardt was S+, Dragons should've been B. Even amongst Cav Mages, the currently strongest unit type, Reinhardt is a standout (fuck you +Spd/-Atk Leo and your 25/25 offenses), so any list worth a damn should've put Reinahardt at the very top, Cav Mages in the tier behind him, and the current 'S+' units in the 3rd tier from the top at best.

 

Reinhardt has:

Better mobility than Xander (Ranged). Better color than Xander (Blue). Better player phase than Xander (duh). Better enemy phase than Xander (CC Vantage is bonkers, and keeps most of Rein's player phase. If Reinhardt takes QR rather than Vantage, he's better than Xander in terms of matchup spread so long as +6/+6 is up for both, no need for the +6 all stats. Xander is only better in the case when neither of them has Hone. Taking QR is a sad, sad choice when you can just +6 all stats and Vantage, though). To be perfectly honest, a comparison of Rein v. everyone ends up like that.

 

Xander is, at best, a E/A/B/B/B unit, versus Reinhardt's A/B/C/A/A or A/A/A/A/C, the two aren't even close to being comparable. (Offense/Bulk/Counter-kill/Mobility/Support Needed)

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Triangle Adept is the only good defensive option and it already comes with a trade-off. There was literally no good reason to nerf it.

*Shrugg* DC is also a pretty good defensive option considering armors can run it for a bunch of non-fury stats across the board. Mind, I also like Fury & Renewal a lot on defensive units, but very few have the spread to run that build, given that it wants a good speed tier---and probably good mobility---to do well.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Whoop-dee-doo. There are two characters out of 147 that can perform this role. What amazing diversity of options we have available to us.

If you have someone who can survive the first round (doesn't have to be the Vantage user, designated bait units like fully defensive Odin with Reciprocal or Pivot---to gtfo---also work, due to Ardent and Reciprocal existing), Vantage OHKO with -blade isn't hard even vs. Reinhardt's 63 magical bulk. 3/4/4/2 is 16 damage for -blade, 13 for weapon, and that's 34 Atk needed to OHKO before A-slot for blues.

Rein's 65 physical bulk is nightmare-ish, though, since even L&D Camus only reaches 53. +1, +Atk, Hector with Atk Seal 1HKOs +10 Reinhardt, however, and +2 buff to res survives the Moonbow Pulse variant. Admittedly the build would need to run panic ploy, but that's mostly as insurance vs. full on horse emblem.

 

The magical bulk needed to survive Moonbow Pulse Reinhardt is around 38/35 for greens, and the Atk needed to OHKO is about 34 for blue mages (before A-slot), though admittedly out of range for blue physicals. Green mages easily OHKO, however, and stronger green physicals, like Hector, reach OHKO status despite losing A-slot for DC.

 

In all honestly, the main reason that Reinhardt feels 'unfair' is that people keep expecting units 4 tiers below to somehow keep up with him. Best offenses, near best bulk, excellent counter-kill, best mobility, near the best in terms of support needed. Most units lack at least two of these categories, but Reinhardt has all of them.

[Lushen]

5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

*Shrugg* DC is also a pretty good defensive option considering armors can run it for a bunch of non-fury stats across the board. Mind, I also like Fury & Renewal a lot on defensive units, but very few have the spread to run that build, given that it wants a good speed tier---and probably good mobility---to do well.

Can confirm.  I think most of my wins come from people not expecting my Lloyd to have DC on him.  At least, the rate at which I was getting wins doubled since I put him on my team.  This is also why Hector is such a good defensive unit, despite not being the greatest offensive unit (IMO).

But it only applies to units with high enough survivabillity and a lot of attack/speed (well-rounded units)

Fury is always good on defensive units.  I would say Renewal loses a lot of utility b/c most people plan to kill your unit in one turn.  Additionally, the AI isn't smart enough to kite so it can heal.  It's also a B skill so it's not really relevant to TA.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Lushen

[LuxSpes]

11 minutes ago, XRay said:

Power creep refers to a rising ceiling. It does not refer to less viable units or builds being more viable. Cancel Affinity, for example could be an example of power creep since that affects Reinhardt and B!Cordelia, two of the strongest characters in game. Reinhardt and B!Cordelia represent power creep when they were released. Making Enemy Phase builds more viable, but still less powerful than Player Phase builds, is not power creep. Slayer Weapons do not change the meta game, while Cancel Affinity can.

Assuming Nintendo will not embrace power creep, there is nothing to worry about. Slayer Weapons and a Special together cost like 1,200 (750+450) from scratch, and running Chain Challenges repeatedly should rack enough SP quickly. The underlying build principle for Enemy Phase units is still the same, as Distant Counter and Quick Riposte are still the best Enemy Phase skills, only the Weapon is different and maybe the Special.

Fire Emblem Heroes is a lot better than many gacha games. Outside of Reinhardt and B!Cordelia, I do not think there are any other moments of power creep. Even Reinhardt and B!Cordelia still have their limits, although Cancel Affinity might change that.

Ah. I did not realize they used a different third tier Weapon.

While Slayer weapons don't raise the ceiling, they do make another weapon, something that people may have invested orbs, feathers and time into, obsolete. Them 'balancing' killer weapons by releasing better version of killer weapons just sets a bad precedent. Them making Killer weapons have 14 Mt instead of just throwing them in the trash would have been a good sign for the future of the game. This seems to say they'd rather force us to spend more orbs if we want to have the balanced version of weak weapons. I just don't see how having a selection of weapons being clear downgrades to others is good for the game long term.

Counter Affinity I think is most dangerous for Blade tomes since it allows them to blow away their strongest counters and leave them with single digit HP. It's a similar scenario for QP Moonbow Reinhardt. As for B!Cordelia, it's still unsure whether or not she'll be able to inherit Cancel Affinity since colorless can't use TA. 

[maybe]

yeah as someone who dropped 20k feathers into getting tobin a killing edge+

i'm not very happy with the whole "slaying" thing

[Xaos Steel Wing]

10 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

While Slayer weapons don't raise the ceiling, they do make another weapon, something that people may have invested orbs, feathers and time into, obsolete. Them 'balancing' killer weapons by releasing better version of killer weapons just sets a bad precedent. Them making Killer weapons have 14 Mt instead of just throwing them in the trash would have been a good sign for the future of the game. This seems to say they'd rather force us to spend more orbs if we want to have the balanced version of weak weapons. I just don't see how having a selection of weapons being clear downgrades to others is good for the game long term.

I like to think of the Slaying Weapons as an opportunity.

Let's face it, Killer weapons were not that great. Not many people were using them.

But with the 14 might Slaying Weapons, this might create an opportunity for a new set of builds around killer weapons. That 3 extra might (or 6 across two attacks) might make a difference.

We also don't know if the Slaying weapon units will come down to 4*, or remain 5* after the banner.

Also, with legendary weapons being 16 might... I really don't think there's room for more power creep. 14-15 is as high as they can go without power creeping everything which would just destroy the game.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Xaos Steel Wing

[Lemmy]

it's weird how much everyone cares about an updated killing edge, don't brave weapons disgustingly outclass both

[Kaden]

Y'know, I'm starting to wish that skills were described in better detail. Like in-battle, it could be a short description, but if you go to a character's page, it'd be described more thoroughly. Or maybe the official website should have a skill guide or something. I mean, there are people who out there who don't understand exactly how Brash Assault, Brave weapons, or Desperation work.

Note: I know the Japanese description of Cancel Affinity was posted and explained as, but what if both the Japanese and English descriptions were poorly worded?

Anyway, what if Cancel Affinity could be interpreted as this? "Any weapon triangle affinity granted by unit's skills is negated." That's simple, it just cancels T-Adept, gem weapons, and -raven tomes because of their effects, their skills, affect the weapon triangle affinity.

Moving on, "If affinity disadvantage exists, weapon triangle affinity granted by foe's skills is reversed." What if this meant that regardless of who has weapon triangle disadvantage, the effects of T-Adept or gem weapons were negated or reversed in a sense that it restores normal weapon triangle affinity?

It does not explicitly state who has to be at affinity disadvantage e.g. "If affinity disadvantage exists for the user...", it just says if affinity disadvantage exists regardless of who has it. The next part is an issue because of the word "reversed", but a thing that is not stated is if it's advantage or disadvantage.

If the sentence was or is supposed to mean "If affinity disadvantage exists for the user, advantageous weapon triangle affinity granted by foe's skills is reversed", then that would imply what people are thinking of a blue with Cancel Affinity fighting a green with T-Adept would result in the blue dealing neutral damage to the green aka Reinhardt's big middle finger.

If, however, it is supposed to mean "If affinity disadvantage exists for either party, weapon triangle affinity granted by foe's skills is reversed/restored to normal", then it could mean what the possible interpretation I'm thinking of (and I think someone mentioned on Reddit a thread interpreted as) where if say, Stahl fighting Mathilda will not deal 0.6 damage and take 1.4 damage to Mathilda, but instead will fight it out as a normal battle of red vs. blue. He'll lose, but not to the degree of Ruby Sword vs. blue destruction.

Cancel Affinity either has a really bad description that its freaking name would be better used to describe its effects or it's a terrible idea of a skill.

if you go by its name alone, Cancel Affinity could imply the problematic issue of being neutral to everything. Cancel as in negating and affinity as in weapon triangle, therefore, removing the weapon triangle from play if you have this skill equipped. It would make sense since Gaiden does not have the weapon triangle and neither does Shadow Dragon, right? Anyway, it's justified from who's bringing it in: Mathilda, a Gaiden character from a game and its remake, Echoes, without the weapon triangle. But this creates an issue as a character could become colorless, but not at the same time which would remove any counter benefits by normally having weapon triangle advantage against them. It would also be worse than what people are thinking as it would not require that you fight someone with T-Adept, a gem weapon, or -raven tome. You have this skill? Cool, the weapon triangle no longer exists for you. "sounds of Dire Thunder crackle in the background*

At the same time and this might be text limitation issues -- What is this? A NES game? --, Cancel Affinity could have meant Cancel Affinity Intensification which its first sentence would be enough to describe what it's meant to do: negate any skills that affect/intensify the weapon triangle. This would be much preferred as the weapon triangle is still in play where a unit cannot get hard countered because someone runs T-Adept, but at the same time, combat isn't treated as if everything was neutral. So, Hector with this could still fight and possibly overpower reds with low defense, but he doesn't get to do neutral damage to them, he's still at a disadvantage to them. Sort of kind of like how Sheena with Svalinn's Shield can still take more hits than usual against someone with Armorslayer, especially if they don't have high attack, but doesn't get obliterated if they have that and T-Adept 3.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kaden

[LuxSpes]

39 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Again, it feels more like a metagame shift than anything else. Some tanky builds suffer but others get buffed from the Killer & Shield Pulse change.

They didn't need to nerf TA to give us Shield Pulse and makes Killer better though. I just don't see how nerfing TA improves the game. Especially when the alternative is to a bunch inherit 5* exclusive skills. If they released a bunch of new 3-4 that had Panic Ploy, Distance Def, Shield Pulse, Distant Counter, it would make this meta shift less troubling, but considering how good these skills are and that this is a gacha game, I really doubt we'll see it happen anytime soon.

Just now, Xaos Steel Wing said:

I like to think of the Slaying Weapons as an opportunity.

Let's face it, Killer weapons were not that great. Not many people were using them.

But with the 14 might Slaying Weapons, this might create an opportunity for a new set of builds around killer weapons. That 3 extra might (or 6 across two attacks) might make a difference.

Why couldn't have just buffed all Killer weapons to have +3 Mt though?

Now, instead of being able to obtain fodder for these weapons from 3*-4* units like Fir, Beruka, Gwendolyn and Niles, we'll have to deal with units that are obtainable at 4-5 stars or at 5 star only. 

 

[Xaos Steel Wing]

3 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

Why couldn't have just buffed all Killer weapons to have +3 Mt though?

Now, instead of being able to obtain fodder for these weapons from 3*-4* units like Fir, Beruka, Gwendolyn and Niles, we'll have to deal with units that are obtainable at 4-5 stars or at 5 star only. 

 

I think at some point IS made a hard decision that they are not buffing or nerfing existing units/skills/weapons. I think the answer is as simple as that.

As far as I know, Brave+ and Silver+ weapons are only obtainable at 5*. So it's not really a shift.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Xaos Steel Wing

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, Othin said:

It's cool to see the set of "Atk/X" Blow skills completed, although it's odd how their names are so different: Swift Sparrow, Sturdy Blow, and Mirror Strike, compared to all the single-stat ones being just "Blow". Are they more consistent in Japanese?

They're extremely consistent in Japanese.

Death Blow is "Fierce Deity Blow".
Darting Blow is "Flying Swallow Blow".
Armored Blow is "Adamantine Blow".
Warding Blow is "Clear Mirror Blow".

Swift Sparrow is "Fierce Deity Flying Swallow Blow".
Sturdy Blow is "Fierce Deity Adamantine Blow".
Mirror Strike is "Fierce Deity Clear Mirror Blow".

 

6 hours ago, Othin said:

Most skills are all upside, aside from using up a skill slot. Using a skill slot for a skill that does nothing unless your opponent has a TA effect seems fair to me, even if it's really powerful when they do.

The problem is that Triangle Adept has both an upside and a downside already. All this does is give it another downside, and "using a skill slot for a skill that does nothing unless your opponent has Triangle Adept" is absurdly good when your only downside is using up a skill slot that you aren't already using. A lot of powerful units, namely Brave weapon users, don't need a B skill, and Cancel Affinity allows them to absurdly easily break through what would otherwise be indestructible walls.

 

5 hours ago, XRay said:

The meta has always drifted towards hyper offense, this is just continuing the trend. Hyper offense is also a lot less risky than "impenetrable" walls in most games in general. Vantage builds are okay, but I find them inferior to dedicated Player and Enemy Phase builds. Whether this is healthy or not, we will see soon enough.

The problem is that defensive builds have been entirely viable until now because Triangle Adept exists. Cancel Affinity makes Triangle Adept a much more risky option than it already was.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

-snip-

The problem is not that people are expecting characters "4 tiers" below Reinhardt to be able to keep up with him. The problem is that Reinhardt is "4 tiers" above nearly everything else and is getting even farther away.

This is the very definition of centralization of the meta where niche builds are a requirement because a specific threat exists that invalidates so many of your other options. All I'm seeing of your suggestions for counters for Cancel Affinity Reinhardt are niche builds, and that's not healthy for a metagame.

 

23 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Note: I know the Japanese description of Cancel Affinity was posted and explained as, but what if both the Japanese and English descriptions were poorly worded?

Honestly wishful thinking. The descriptions of Brash Assault and Desperation are literally crystal clear in Japanese, and there hasn't been a skill with an inaccurate description yet in Japanese.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Tybrosion]

I'm not sure if anyone else has made this connection or at the very least has said it out loud, but Delthea has apparently been Yveltal this whole time. No wonder she has such destructive power when her true identity is that of the bacon bird of death itself.