New banners announced: Alm's Army/Celica's Army

[r_n]

2 minutes ago, Lushen said:

I don't really see the issue with the anti-TA skill.

We have armorslayers and wolf tomes that would make short work of most armored units and horse units, but no one uses them.  Granted, horse emblems are still more powerful with their buffs than the advantage a wolf tome gives, but it's still there.  

No one uses these weapons because they're very specific.  There's no reason to think that everyone will have this skill on all members of their team, they'd be giving up other great skills like DC/CC/Fury/L&D.  

I think the other problem with these weapons is the only ones available were tomes so their advantage was kind of...eh, espeically compared to the holy grail that is blade tome where even the non+ variant was super good. Riderbane & Zanbato MIGHT make a dent due to higher power but also they're on units that we'll be lucky are 4 star. and do nothing against mages like rein on enemy phase unless you have DC

[Lushen]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Cancel Affinity is a B skill, not an A skill. Guess who has a free B slot.

Crap.  Guess watching the video 3 times isn't enough.  It should definitely be an A skill, it would compete with a lot more great skills.  Additionally, what the hell happens if I have TA and this new skill and fight someone with TA?

There is a shortage of B skills on attacking units.  Yea, there's some sketchy things you can do with desperation and ardent sacrifice, but ignoring that all the >=x% health skills aren't very good with the exception of quick riposte which assumes you can tank a hit.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Lushen

[Rezzy]

5 minutes ago, Oboro! said:

Hmmm....

Not sure if I should believe you since you openly said "I'm Nohrian scrum"...

Takes me a while to trust you people....

 

Also, am I the only one who isn't so sure about how well cavalry effective weapons will do? Sure, cavalry team can be a problem for some people, but is it worth the effect since you're losing other types of weapon potential (killer weapons for example)? Meh, all I know is, Delthea is going to change some things heh

I can still be Nohrian Scum and predate Fates.  You act like Nohr only came into existence a year ago.  We are a proud, ancient people.

3 minutes ago, Lushen said:

I don't really see the issue with the anti-TA skill.

We have armorslayers and wolf tomes that would make short work of most armored units and horse units, but no one uses them.  Granted, horse emblems are still more powerful with their buffs than the advantage a wolf tome gives, but it's still there.  

No one uses these weapons because they're very specific.  There's no reason to think that everyone will have this skill on all members of their team, they'd be giving up other great skills like DC/CC/Fury/L&D.  

For Tomes, the Wolf Tomes are pretty much always an inferior option to either ColorBlade or WTARaven.

And I think Cancel Affinity is a B skill, though I might be wrong.  It's a bit odd that it's not A

[Othin]

2 minutes ago, Lushen said:

I don't really see the issue with the anti-TA skill.

We have armorslayers and wolf tomes that would make short work of most armored units and horse units, but no one uses them.  Granted, horse emblems are still more powerful with their buffs than the advantage a wolf tome gives, but it's still there.  

No one uses these weapons because they're very specific.  There's no reason to think that everyone will have this skill on all members of their team, they'd be giving up other great skills like DC/CC/Fury/L&D.  

@RezzyLeo is an awesome name.  I love kids names that aren't common, but aren't unheard of either.

The difference is that CA takes up a skill slot rather than a weapon slot and rather than targeting a movement type, targets a skill that specifically makes the character tailored to beat the user. Specifically, it's not an A skill like all those skills you listed; it's a B skill, which is often far less contested.

Not everyone will use those skills, yes. But speaking personally, on my current cavalry team, TA-Raven Cecilia is my only green, and therefore key to stopping dangerous enemy blues like Reinhardt or Olwen. If I'm in the middle of an arena run and one of those shows up with CA, I'm probably fucked. It's not enough for it to not show up all the time; it just showing up occasionally is enough to make running TA become a huge risk.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Lushen said:

Crap.  Guess watching the video 3 times isn't enough.  It should definitely be an A skill, it would compete with a lot more great skills.  Additionally, what the hell happens if I have TA and this new skill?

Cancel Affinity's description (first sentence) specifically says it negates the effect of your own Triangle Adept and gem weapon.

[r_n]

3 minutes ago, Othin said:

The difference is that CA takes up a skill slot rather than a weapon slot and rather than targeting a movement type, targets a skill that specifically makes the character tailored to beat the user. Specifically, it's not an A skill like all those skills you listed; it's a B skill, which is often far less contested.

Not everyone will use those skills, yes. But speaking personally, on my current cavalry team, TA-Raven Cecilia is my only green, and therefore key to stopping dangerous enemy blues like Reinhardt or Olwen. If I'm in the middle of an arena run and one of those shows up with CA, I'm probably fucked. It's not enough for it to not show up all the time; it just showing up occasionally is enough to make running TA become a huge risk.

On a less meta note, this is going to make the tower's upper strata even worse. I mean that's been a thing every single update, but it was nice being able to bring in jewel weapons and such...

[Lushen]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Cancel Affinity's description (first sentence) specifically says it negates the effect of your own Triangle Adept and gem weapon.

Ah, totally misread the first sentence.  This is why I was so confused the whole time (not just about this but the whole skill in general)

[LuxSpes]

14 minutes ago, Othin said:

It negates your own affinity skills. That chart isn't assuming any affinity skills on the CA user, just on its opponent.

---

I wonder if the expected meta-warping effects of CA are intentional. Player phase builds are much more expensive than enemy phase builds, so nerfing enemy phase builds could be a way to force people to spend more. Which seems pretty obnoxious.

I think I would slightly less angered with CA if it also removed your advantage against opponents with TA. It would make it an equalizer skill against TA, you lose your weakness, but you also lose your stronger match-up to compensate.

[DehNutCase]

18 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem is that Hector fails to kill Reinhardt in a single hit without +Atk, and +Atk Hector is not exactly the most accessible thing in the game. Multiple Reinhardts will just murder him because he can't run away. Panic Ploy on a pure Hone Cavalry team only negates Death Blow, meaning Hector still takes 17×2 damage from +Atk Reinhardt, and Hector is dead in 2 rounds of combat.

The needing +Atk is mostly due to a very, very high difference in merge levels and, IRRC, no offensive buffs on Hector. +1 Hector vs. +10 Reinhardt.

 

With +0 =Hector v. +7 Reinhardt, =Hector can get by with +6 buff to atk (From, say, Delthea). And yes, +0 =Hector survives +7, +Atk, DB 3, Moonbow Pulse Rein even at +6/+6, though a +2 buff to res is needed.

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

The needing +Atk is mostly due to a very, very high difference in merge levels and, IRRC, no offensive buffs on Hector. +1 Hector vs. +10 Reinhardt.

 

With +0 =Hector v. +7 Reinhardt, =Hector can get by with +6 buff to atk (From, say, Delthea). And yes, +0 =Hector survives +7, +Atk, DB 3, Moonbow Pulse Rein even at +6/+6, though a +2 buff to res is needed.

+0 Hector [=] has 52 Atk, which is 62 effective Atk against green. +0 Reinhardt [=] has 65 physical bulk. Neutral Hector cannot kill neutral Reinhardt with both units at +0 without buffs, a +Atk nature, or a special skill activation.

Furthermore, the problem isn't surviving one Reinhardt. My Nowi can do that if I need it. And obviously so can my Fae even with Cancel Affinity on Reinhardt. The problem is surviving two or more Reinhardts.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, LuxSpes said:

While Slayer weapons don't raise the ceiling, they do make another weapon, something that people may have invested orbs, feathers and time into, obsolete. Them 'balancing' killer weapons by releasing better version of killer weapons just sets a bad precedent. Them making Killer weapons have 14 Mt instead of just throwing them in the trash would have been a good sign for the future of the game. This seems to say they'd rather force us to spend more orbs if we want to have the balanced version of weak weapons. I just don't see how having a selection of weapons being clear downgrades to others is good for the game long term.

Counter Affinity I think is most dangerous for Blade tomes since it allows them to blow away their strongest counters and leave them with single digit HP. It's a similar scenario for QP Moonbow Reinhardt. As for B!Cordelia, it's still unsure whether or not she'll be able to inherit Cancel Affinity since colorless can't use TA. 

As @Xaos Steel Wing already said, I am pretty sure they weighed the option of changing past content versus making past content obsolete. They decided the latter is more beneficial. I personally agree with you that their chosen method is both sloppy and ugly, but there is nothing we can really do besides lodging a complaint and try to influence them. If you are willing to quit the game and stop giving them money over it, that is the most effective form of protest. Although by the time it works, you might not want to come back to the game anymore.

Making Slaying Weapons impacts more than just Killer Weapons. Some players probably invested in Wo Dao+/Silver Sword+ and Moonbow because that gave the highest kill count over Killing Edge+ and 3 CD Special. Players invested in Wo Dao and Silver Sword will have to update both their Weapon and their Special, whereas players invested in Killing Edge only has to update their Weapon.

[Lemmy]

hearing about reinhardt in every thread is starting to get old. it's definately increasing my suspicions that the developers kept the defense values too low compared to attack, then doubled down with the A skills.

if anyone sees me trying to buy orbs, just say reinhardt 

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, Lemmy said:

hearing about reinhardt in every thread is starting to get old. it's definately increasing my suspicions that the developers kept the defense values too low compared to attack, then doubled down with the A skills.

if anyone sees me trying to buy orbs, just say reinhardt 

They made the defense values low to speed up combat.

And Reinhardt! Reinhardt! Reinhardt!

[Arcanite]

6 minutes ago, Lemmy said:

hearing about reinhardt in every thread is starting to get old.

I like you a lot!

[Sentinel07]

I'm guessing at this point that I'm one of the few people to have not been bothered by Reinhardt teams.

Seriously, even in Arena, I barely ever see the character. I think I've seen more Olwens honestly. Maybe that's why I don't freak out as much as others.

[DehNutCase]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

+0 Hector [=] has 52 Atk, which is 62 effective Atk against green. +0 Reinhardt [=] has 65 physical bulk. Neutral Hector cannot kill neutral Reinhardt with both units at +0 without buffs, a +Atk nature, or a special skill activation.

Furthermore, the problem isn't surviving one Reinhardt. My Nowi can do that if I need it. And obviously so can my Fae even with Cancel Affinity on Reinhardt. The problem is surviving two or more Reinhardts.

Buff Hector (anyone can carry Hone Atk) and send him to Vantage clear. He only needs to survive 1 Reinhardt because Vantage kills the rest once he's low. I mentioned him surviving Reinhardt because, if he can survive the strongest Reinhardt variant, nothing else matters since it's just a bunch of Vantage OHKOs. Sure, Fae survives, one, maybe even two or three, but Hector survives 4 because he takes 0 damage after the first one.

Delthea even has Drive Atk for a total of +9 to Atk, in case it's some crazy tanky Reinhardt variant. (It's not like you send Fae out without buffing her, right?) Admittedly this would be dependent on Delthea not being crap in terms of spread, but even +6 (Reinas & Drive Atk or Hone Armor) should cover the vast, vast majority of Reinhardts.

+Atk, +0, Atk Seal Hector with +9 Atk from Delthea is strong enough to OHKO +9 Reinhardt with Fort Cavalry.

(And, technically speaking, buff-less =Hector kills =Reinhardt because he has Amads, he just doesn't OHKO.)

 

[Arcanite]

3 minutes ago, Sentinel07 said:

I'm guessing at this point that I'm one of the few people to have not been bothered by Reinhardt teams.

Join the club!

He appears frequently for me enough to notice him, but he's not a problem for me at all

We'll see how this whole CA thing goes. I for one think it won't make much of a difference to my people except my Azura and Male Robin.

[XRay]

7 minutes ago, Sentinel07 said:

I'm guessing at this point that I'm one of the few people to have not been bothered by Reinhardt teams.

Seriously, even in Arena, I barely ever see the character. I think I've seen more Olwens honestly. Maybe that's why I don't freak out as much as others.

Reinhardt and pony teams have a fairly low score value. However, when you do face them, they are very likely to be merged. I normally have no problem with pony teams unless I face them on the map with parallel bridges. If you are at the top of the arena running +10 merged Dragon teams, you might never run into pony teams.

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, DehNutCase said:

Buff Hector (anyone can carry Hone Atk) and send him to Vantage clear. He only needs to survive 1 Reinhardt because Vantage kills the rest once he's low. I mentioned him surviving Reinhardt because, if he can survive the strongest Reinhardt variant, nothing else matters since it's just a bunch of Vantage OHKOs. Sure, Fae survives, one, maybe even two or three, but Hector survives 4 because he takes 0 damage after the first one.

(And, technically speaking, buff-less =Hector kills =Reinhardt because he has Amads, he just doesn't OHKO.)

A Hone Atk 3 buff gives him 67 effective Atk, which then fails to kill +3 Reinhardt in a single hit. Vantage sweeps only work if you can kill the opponent in one hit, and considering you're typically expected to go up against opponents averaging 4 or 5 merge levels above yours, +3 Reinhardt isn't much of a stretch.

 

5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Delthea even has Drive Atk for a total of +9 to Atk, in case it's some crazy tanky Reinhardt variant. (It's not like you send Fae out without buffing her, right?) Admittedly this would be dependent on Delthea not being crap in terms of spread, but even +6 (Reinas & Drive Atk or Hone Armor) should cover the vast, vast majority of Reinhardts.

+Atk, +0, Atk Seal Hector with +9 Atk from Delthea is strong enough to OHKO +9 Reinhardt with Fort Cavalry.

Back to your overly specific counters again, huh? I think you're missing my point since you keep doing this.

A healthy metagame relies on the fact that you have options to counter everything you expect to see and that you don't need to go out of your way to build against specific threats. Things you do to counter those threats are still things that are useful in general and have a reasonable number of substitutes.

 

1 minute ago, XRay said:

Reinhardt and pony teams have a fairly low score value. However, when you do face them, they are very likely to be merged. I normally have no problem with pony teams unless I face them on the map with parallel bridges. If you are at the top of the arena running +10 merged Dragon teams, you might never run into pony teams.

Indeed. There are literally no cavalry units to be seen above 730 points.

[Cute Chao]

Just thinking about coming across CA in the Tower irks me. One of my main ways of winning the flier quests each month is to send out Narcian, Palla and Subaki to handle their weapons match. Now I can just imagine half of them having CA, like how I seem to come across the ploys all the time now... and how armourslayers are suddenly everywhere when trying to do armour quests -.- Makes those three characters almost useless as they are :( 

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Indeed. There are literally no cavalry units to be seen above 730 points.

Sounds like heaven. Maybe I will be able to run a Loli team some day. I need a lot more Ninians and Y!Tikis though

[DehNutCase]

30 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Back to your overly specific counters again, huh? I think you're missing my point since you keep doing this.

A healthy metagame relies on the fact that you have options to counter everything you expect to see and that you don't need to go out of your way to build against specific threats. Things you do to counter those threats are still things that are useful in general and have a reasonable number of substitutes.

A double Hone Armor core would be fine as a defense core: Their coverage should be comparable to any of your two QR TA3 dragons.

 

A 'general' counter is just: Toss horse emblem at the problem (run -blade, CC, Vantage). Horse emblem has the defensive counter-kill ability of the very best defensive units (Reinhardt's OHKO coverage should be better than or equal to TA3, QR 3 Nowi, same for Leo vs. Y!Tiki). They also have the offensive ability of regular -blade cavalry (because they are -blade cavalry), so you can pick and choose what strategy to use each map.

You're deliberately asking me for crappy units that don't work in the meta---because you want to run defensive units when the best offensive units also have the defensive matchups of the best defensive units.

If a low unit can beat high tier units consistently, then either the unit should be high tier or the high tier units should be low tier. Of course my examples are niche because they're picking from low tier units.

 

Edit: That said, I get that 'this' is your point, in that Horse Emblem beats everyone at everything, but it's not like 'crappy' builds are unviable just because the best units are several tiers above everyone else. Particularly since, like you've said, horse still have a minor scoring penalty so you can ignore them if you whale hard enough. (This is also part of why Horse Emblem is dominant, though, since they're fighting 'down' versus everyone else.)

30 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

A Hone Atk 3 buff gives him 67 effective Atk, which then fails to kill +3 Reinhardt in a single hit. Vantage sweeps only work if you can kill the opponent in one hit, and considering you're typically expected to go up against opponents averaging 4 or 5 merge levels above yours, +3 Reinhardt isn't much of a stretch.

Then I guess you don't run Hector unless you have a +Atk Hector. *Shrugg* Not sure what's the point of facing optimal arena enemies while pretending you're shackled to =IV units. 

 

Edit: Camus goes crazy under conditions like this, though, since Peri's Atk lead disappears in the face of the fact that he can run specials other then Escutcheon but Peri is shackled to her 33/33 offenses and crappy bulk.

Same for Abel, but Abel's better than Peri even in optimal situations, so that's not news.

Edited July 13, 2017 by DehNutCase

[SniperGYS]

If IntSys add Kliff to heroes, and they made him a sword user, I'm going to cry really...

I'm going to try for Sonya and Leon, hope I get one of them :S

[Rezzy]

7 minutes ago, SniperGYS said:

If IntSys add Kliff to heroes, and they made him a sword user, I'm going to cry really...

I'm going to try for Sonya and Leon, hope I get one of them :S

They might make Kliff a healer.

[Lushen]

55 minutes ago, Lemmy said:

hearing about reinhardt in every thread is starting to get old. it's definately increasing my suspicions that the developers kept the defense values too low compared to attack, then doubled down with the A skills.

if anyone sees me trying to buy orbs, just say reinhardt 

But Reinhardt is the best

In all seriousness, he's really not.  I was one of the few who pulled him on his original banner as a 5* and used him like crazy before horse emblems were really in play.  At the time, he was a god, capable of destroying everything.  Now, however, he really kinda sucks just because so many people specifically build against him.  All it takes is a green unit, a brave bow unit, or another blue mage to take him down.  And his horse mage status makes him very easy to lure from long distance away from all the other units if he's not on a horse emblem.

On my cavalry account which I have recently retired, I actually found myself using him to KO units less and less in favor of Xander and Camus who were superior in most cases due to their fantastic stat spreads.  Reinhardt was only really used on high def units. 

I think most of the hype around Reinhardt is he is one of the best units you can get as a 4*.  Most of the other units as good as him are only available as 5* or require a lot more SI so most people don't have them built.  If you're a whale, there are better units in most cases.  

Edited July 13, 2017 by Lushen