Persona 5 Mafia - Game Over

[charlie_]

Votals 3.2

kirsche (3): Refa, BBM, SullyMcGully
SullyMcGully (2): kirsche, Via
Marth (1): Bartozio

Not Voting (2): Elieson, Marth

There are 51 hours and 50 minutes left in the day. With 8 alive, it takes 3 to lynch and 5 to hammer.

[BBM]

"Marth being tracked to Shinori" is what I meant, not "Marth being tracked to Bartozio". I read the posts about this more fully and Elie's posts annoy me because Bart and Sully are new and I can see them jumping to improper logic conclusions here, but Elie should know that a) being tracked to a kill doesn't mean you did it, and b) a SK is very unlikely in a setup this size.

I've gone back and forth on this and actually I guess Bart could be scum Tracker; it would make sense as a slightly weaker version of a Rolecop for a scum info role in a low-power setup. What worries me is that his targets were both people who had little to no suspicion on them; they both make sense as scum Tracker targets. The Refa target logic of "if he was scum, he would take the kill" is also bad because yes, while that's true, it's also true that given his low likelihood of being scum in the first place, you're probably not going to get a useful result? The way he claimed, to push a lynch on such faulty logic, has obvious scum intent too, but like I said earlier it's also easily plausible that he's just new and had bad logic? Overall I don't think I want to lynch him today because he could also be town Tracker but please pick an actual scummy person to target tonight, not a townie person because "if they're scum they'd take the kill". Even if you don't directly catch them taking the kill (besides, targeting a kill doesn't mean they actually took the kill), targeting scum increases the likelihood of catching them in a lie when they role claim, because they might lie about who they targeted.

next post will be back to kirsche

[BBM]

actually there isn't that much else in kirsche's post but given that kirsche was buddies with me in my most recent scum game he knows that I don't half-ass my busses; when I bus my buddies they get lynched. why would I as scum "waffle and half-ass" on Shinori? not to mention he also has me as a buddy with Sully and in that case I would also be not committing to a Sully bus either, after my D1 push against him. and then according to him it's also not townie that I didn't heap on the Prims wagon... so if I'm scum and I'm not trying to lynch town and I'm not trying to lynch scum who am I trying to lynch?

it's not really true that I waffled on Shinori D1- I waffled about one specific post Shinori made where he got mad at Bart misreading him. The rest of the time I consistently said that I had a gut feeling he was scum, but I just couldn't directly tie it to scum intent, although I wrote several posts talking about how Shinori's cases were bad. I also was pretty consistently pushing him as a #2 read after Baldrick on D2.

@Sully- ITP stands for Independent Third Party, which is a bit redundant but I guess it's an easy shortform.

[Bartozio]

Urgh..., I guess I was wrong then and it was just a coincidence? I guess I'll just believe you guys then, but if the next night phase has another unexplained kill, I know where my vote is going.

##Unvote

##Vote: Sully

[Refa]

Marth, I just got back and I’m on a phone but what did you think of Elie?  As in, the slot as a whole.  I really didn’t think Michelaar was scum and you’re the only person who knows how to read him besides me so I wanted to know what you’re current thoughts are there.

I can see Scum Tracker in a setup with a fucking 1x Janitor.  Marth is probably town because his role would PoE him if he was the last scum.  I’ll make replies when I’m not typing on a fucking phone.

[Refa]

Addendum: I wouldn’t want to lynch Bart because he’s the only claimed investigativ role, and when I thought about what investigative roles made sense in this setup, tracker was what I came up with. Actually fuck me, ignore the Scum Tracker thing.  It’s more likely as a town role.

[Bluedoom]

I thought Mich was town too but Eli pushing for a 1v1 and asking another town to out their role feels really scummy to me, I want him to post his thoughts on the players ASAP.

 

FYPOV if Bart is town then the team has to be like, 2 of kirsche/sully/eli. Thoughts?

[Refa]

If Mich is scum then I don’t want to play mafia anymore so yeah.  Elie should definitely give reads and stop egging people on.

The weird thung about Kirsche Sully is that Kirsche made his opening post within the first two minutes of the day.  He’d have to go into today casing both of his buddies, which seems like bullshit.  So I dunno...I’d lynch Bart over Sully on a Scum!Kirsche flip (at least one person is going to get cleared anyways so I’m not too worried).

[Refa]

Also considering Bart tied up the wagons, I doubt he’s scum with Sully so...yeah, Kirsche/Bart if acum is not these two feel free to case the fuck out of me.  I don’t even remember Bartozio making a Sully case today, did I miss it?

[Bluedoom]

Man Bart's claim is frustrating. Still trying to wrap my head around it but WHY DIDN'T YOU TRACK SULLY IF YOU FOUND HIM SCUMMY?

[Zkirsche]

I'm at L-1 and it's 5/2/1 if there's an SK so someone should unvote before we end up 2/2/1 or 3/1/1.

Sully first:

Quote

So suddenly saying that everything everyone else thinks is suddenly wrong or suspicious seems like desperate scum to me. Especially BBM: since when were you suspicious of him? That came out of nowhere. Maybe you've mentioned him somewhere and I haven't noticed, but the last time you cased BBM was D1.

Since D1. Nothing he did afterwards screamed suspicious but I was cautious of him since D1. Every defence that has been made towards him has never convinced me either and I've been keeping an eye out for them. Even D2 I was arguing against people saying BBM was town.

I'm saying what people are saying is wrong because it is wrong. Saying I was particularly suspicious or very "anti baldrick" D1 is wrong, saying I was defending Baldrick by not wanting to commit to a lynch 24 horus into the day on someone I had never read is wrong, saying I was defending you by asking opinions about where you had been coached is wrong. These are factually incorrect statement that are being used to forge scumreads of me. Were they not wrong Sully? Please point out to me how these statements or impressions were correct.

As for my suspicions, feel free to talk about which suspicions are wrong and why. I would love to know this as this would help me continually update my read on you and it may help brighten my understanding of this game.

Quote

I honestly think BBM's townplay is pretty good.. I didn't see his Shinori stance as being that waffling, waffling was to be expected dealing with Shinori

Here's a perfect example of BBM waffling on Shinori and one that I chastised him for D1:

Quote

Shinori's post kind of reads like scum getting mad about people voting him for reasons he interprets as shitty but also I was just mad at people for voting me due to not reading my posts properly last night so idk. Plus Shinori is just more reactionary to stuff like this regardless of alignment.

I think I originally did interpret Shinori's bit about not liking my initial vote as not liking my initial Marth vote as opposed to not liking my initial vote of the game on Mack, but then when I read Bartozio's vote I didn't go back to reread Shinori's post and just assumed Bartozio was correct about that. But it does bother me that Shinori jumps to talking about poor logic and what not when the most likely thing is just people misreading what Shinori meant.

In the first paragraph he goes on about how Shinori being mad is bad but not really because he did something similar (and FHPoV he is town). Next paragraph is him explaining that he messed up on his initial interpretation of Shinori's vote but Shinori is still bad because Shinori got annoyed at people voting him for reasons he interpreted as shitty instead of realising that people likely just misread what Shinori said. Pedit: See later for more on BBM waffling on Shinori.

I get re-evaluating after a failed flip but you agreed with my arguments before but now my arguments are scummy for reasons that you haven't gone into. Not to mention I wasn't super big on the Baldrick wagon so I don't really understand it. I don't think your opinion of me at the start of D2 was about Baldrick, so what changed between now and then? Not everything everyone says or doesn't say is suspicious: best example of that is in my very first post of the day, when I am questioning how you appeared coahced and what them them think it in the first place.

@BBM:

Quote

I don't know what the point of talking randomly about confirmation phase is, and the Prims meta thing based on an OC game is still bad, and asking what the scum intent in not wanting to reread the thread is ??? obviously that's scummy; why WOULD you as scum want to reread the thread and "improve your opinions" when your opinions are all fake anyways?

I didn't think Sully's confirmation phase vote would come from scum who could ask his buddies "I should keep my role pm secret" instead of posting it publicly. The statement reads as the opposite of paranoid, which is generally a feeling that comes associated with rolling scum for the first time. I remember being quite intimidated and more than a little scared by it and I wasn't even scum my first game.

Why is it bad exactly? We played the first day of that OC game rather like NOC in terms of scumreads and lynching someone because of it. I questioned if it really makes such a huge difference that one can talk to people individually because frankly I don't think I would have played that game that much differently if the convos in thread stayed the same and I didn't talk to people out of thread.

As for your last point, so scum!me can fake opinions better. If I've only just barely read the thread I couldn't form informed opinions on people and that'd make me look scummy because I wouldn't be able to pass my fake opinions off as genuine. Like, you think I'm motivated enough to fake that giant 4 microsoft word page essay on why I think Prims is scum just to kill him anyway but I'm not motivated enough to reread Baldrick mid phase so I can actually have an opinion of him?

Quote

but the scumread portion of kirsche's post is what is really scummy though because it's full of saying "these are bad reasons for townreading BBM" and "I could easily see BBM being scum" while barely even talking about what I've done that's actually scummy, other than asking you to reread Sully.

I have weighed up why other people think you are town and I do not believe they are good reasons for doing so and have explained thoroughly why. I've been wary of you since my very first post but even though your content had improved and you were reading better it was always nagging at me. I guess you can call it gut or whatever but in addition to that:

-calling me out for asking other people about stuff and arguing that means I'm defending Sully is bad because it's a contrived argument used to justify a suspicion that has basically come out of nowhere considering you were townreading me D2. It also comes at a time when public opinion of me was obviously not great considering I was on many people's scumteams. This is opportunistic and scum taking advantage of a growing sentiment to fuel a mislynch when one more mislynch puts town in a very troublesome position.

-undermining my Sully case subtlety is scummy for the reason I mentioned. It doesn't matter if my Sully case was/is bad or not (it's not), not actually arguing against it is scummy because you are trying to convince people that its bad without actually proving its bad. Stating the case is obviously bad, doesn't make it bad.

-This was only really a kind of thought in my head and not something concrete at the time but I feel like your opinions and feelings as a player are very inconsistant this game. He liked to waffle on Shinori D1, then now criticises me for providing counterarguments and questions to Sully's aggressors in parts of my post. If the first can come from town, then surely the latter can come from town. So why is it come D3 that you think that it is scummy? I also don't think town!BBM would go from being unsure of his reads like he supposedly would have been post Baldrick mislynch to confidently claiming the scumteam is me/Bartozio?

My Sully case wasn't the most indepth, it isn't nearly as complex and well thought out as my case on you, but dismissing the reasons that I have made and saying that "I barely had a Sully case" just frankly isn't true. I have my reasons for it, part of it is PoE, but I believe that he has bad interactions with our flipped scum, had made bad votes all through the game including but not limited to this jump on me. Are these reasons bad reasons for calling someone scum? Are they scummy reasons?

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

@Via/Marth/Bartozio/Refa: Thoughts on my above points?

Quote

I did pick that last part apart by pointing out that when Bartozio made this same point about Sully being jumpy (albeit with a slightly different explanation of scum intent) you disagreed with it.

Where did I disagree with him? I wanted to know what scum intent he found in it, I never stated that there wasn't any. I just wanted to know more about his read for my understanding and to help me validate my read on him.

Quote

actually there isn't that much else in kirsche's post but given that kirsche was buddies with me in my most recent scum game he knows that I don't half-ass my busses; when I bus my buddies they get lynched. why would I as scum "waffle and half-ass" on Shinori? not to mention he also has me as a buddy with Sully and in that case I would also be not committing to a Sully bus either, after my D1 push against him. and then according to him it's also not townie that I didn't heap on the Prims wagon... so if I'm scum and I'm not trying to lynch town and I'm not trying to lynch scum who am I trying to lynch?

it's not really true that I waffled on Shinori D1- I waffled about one specific post Shinori made where he got mad at Bart misreading him. The rest of the time I consistently said that I had a gut feeling he was scum, but I just couldn't directly tie it to scum intent, although I wrote several posts talking about how Shinori's cases were bad. I also was pretty consistently pushing him as a #2 read after Baldrick on D2.

The bus on Earlio was a terrible move that put us on the backfoot all game and your overconfidence that game cost us dearly at the end. You're not going to just do that again in the very next game. Half-assing your read on Shinori D1 is your way of holding back I'm sure.

Having a gut feeling with no backing behind it and outright stating "there's nothing particularly scummy about his posts" or something like that is why I'm calling your Shinori read a half-assed waffle.

[Refa]

You’re not at L-1, you’d need 4 votes to be at L-1.

I’ll go over your case in detail on a comp but my first impression is that I really don’t think BBM is scum.  Your defense seemed good on first read.

[Zkirsche]

If people don't want to read all of that then can people please read the bit just before my BBM vote and think about it and discuss it with me? @Refa @Quote @Bartozio @Magnificence Incarnate @Elieson  hell even @SullyMcGully.

[Zkirsche]

@SB. Would a theoretical Sk count towards the announced *ylo?

[Refa]

I don’t think there’s an SK.  Kill probably came from Mackc2.

https://epicmafia.com/role/789

Weirdly enough, I asked SB what an interrogator was when the day started and the jerk wouldn’t tell me.  I said it sounded like an EpicMafia role, but never bothered to check until now.

[Bluedoom]

I don't have much time to read the entire thing but I think the defence is good even though I disagree with your reasons for scumreading BBM. Yeah scum!BBM could be undermining your case but if BBM is town then he just believes that your case is bad. I have to look at the part where you argue for BBM defending Prims as scum D1 but I'll probably do that in 8-9 hours.

[Bluedoom]

Rolename doesn't necessarily imply anything. I'm a lightning rod but my rolename is Decoy.

[Refa]

Your role is Decoy, Marth!

[Zkirsche]

^^^^^Lmao

@Marth: I don't see Prims as being an easy turbo and I think arguing against turboing anyone is a fairly legit idea that can come from both town and scum.

I'm not arguing against BBM calling my case bad, I think the way he is(or rather, isn't) doing it is bad.

What about his mindset and his actions? Do you think the way he came into this thread today was natural considering he was a big proponent of the Baldrick wagon last phase?

[BBM]

kirsche wrote a lot of stuff and little of it is an actual rebuttal of what I said, especially the main points

firstly, he reiterates the stuff about me undermining his Sully case. I said it was under-supported because it was supposed to be a secondary push, and asked him to provide more support to give him a chance to improve it. and if he wants to treat that as me "undermining the case" when half of his first post isn't even a case. This is the case:

On 12/5/2017 at 4:32 PM, kirsche said:  Reveal hidden contents

Shinori still needs to tell me what he thinks of my actual cases as my BBM case originally was a lot more than just me agreeing with him and that kinda got dropped(would like to hear about my prims case also). His BBM case was ok – talking about BBM not seeming to pressure his scumreads just commenting on what’s happening. This was an understandable sentiment from BBM’s posts, although not one I agree with at the time.

His reads post on page 8 is really underwhelming. Doesn’t elaborate on a read on Bart, finds Bizz/Quote scummy on gut, Prims wasn’t obvtown which apparently puts him as third highest on the lynch priority, and his Mich read reads like an overjustified OMGUS. Why would scum!Mich in particular wait until you’ve said the same thing three times to unvote?

Next few posts he states he doesn’t want to lynch Sully and criticises Baldrick for seemingly wanting to lynch “anyone not Lord Gaius”. For the record, the only thing Shinori said regarding Ken’s alignment was that his RVS post wasn’t scum, just silly RVS shenanigans.

I didn’t like his Bart vote in D1 then and I still don’t now. Most of his points were pretty meh – Bart not wanting to lynch a sub is somewhat understandable even if the slot is bad, he was voting Ken beforehand so it isn’t really a sheep onto a wagon; though the vote IS a park. He also never explained whether or not Bart’s Sully case was actually scummy and why.

Then that’s it. He votes Bart and leaves, stating that he’d prefer not to leave his vote on LG because he doesn’t think hammer is required. Note he hasn’t: explained why LG/Ken isn’t on his lynch priority at all or why it’s a good/bad lynch, explained his Sully or Prims reads. His reads D1 were not only weak, but mostly unexplained, and he rarely participated in the discussion on the main wagon which made him coast hardcore.

His first post in D2 doesn’t explain why BBM’s reads on Bartozio were half-assed and I feel like his Mich case is just filled with nitpicks. Constantly going over how Mich said he understood the cases on Baldrick but wasn’t feeling it and how this gets contradictory. Again, what is the scum intent here? What is scum!Mich trying to achieve by not wanting to hop onto the wagon? I guess you could argue he is buddies with Baldy but that didn’t happen, so what are your thoughts on him now?

Would like to know what my really iffy post was and why.

At phase end he was defending Baldrick when he was criticising his play all game before the Mack claim? Specifically he criticised Baldrick’s vote on him at the start of D2 but by the end of D2 he “was focusing on other people more” but the only reason why is that Baldrick made “a bad move” which was unlikely to come from scum? How does that stop you from pushing him before the move? What were your thoughts on the cases brought forth against Baldrick at the start of the day by people like BBM and later Paperblade? This is the second time he has avoided the main wagon. Notice how he hasn’t really defended Baldrick that much, just kind of sat on the sidelines saying that he isn’t his priority in terms of being lynched.

@Shinori: What was biased about your scum teams?

Tl;dr Shinori has dodged both lynch wagon, talking very little about them, and has spent much of his days focusing on Bart/Mich in ways which I find contrived. His other reads are not really explained.

Sadly I can’t bring myself to ISO Sully as he has so many posts and he posts outside of SF mafia frequently rip. My general impression from seeing his posts scattered about when ISOing others though is that he likes to sheep other people, but not necessarily sheeping the real reason that person suspected someone. (E.g. agrees with me and BBM about feeling wary about Baldrick D1 when I at least hadn’t got an opinion of Baldrick D1). Not sure if this is scummy thought because a newbie is not only more likely to sheep but also more likely to misunderstand people.

I think the worst thing is that he seems to be also hopping onto the largest wagon at the time each time which is quite opportunistic and I can definitely see newb!scum doing that. @Sully: Can you give another list of reads on each person and reason for each where possible? Like your D2 one I guess. @People scumreading Sully: Can you guys think of an example where Sully backtracked on a read to hop opportunistically on a wagon? You can potentially use his page 18 reads post as a eference.

Also @Refa/Paperblade: What made you think Sully was being coached, like what sentences and stuff do you think were too confident/well made to come from a newbie like him that warranted this suspicion in the first place? I ask because Sully seeming confused about whether Mackc could be scum or not doesn’t suggest that they are being coached by anyone. Also I feel like someone being coached would make way less mistakes.

I think Sully/Shinori makes a reasonable scum team, as Shinori town reads him and never really expands on it, never really commenting on the actual cases made by other people on him in the process. Shinori had also supposedly eased Sully’s suspicions because his Bart case was “weak but with merit” which is weird. What are those merits?

Since Shinori is dead and has flipped scum I am happy to ##Vote: Sully because my confirmation vote defence is dumb and he has bad interactions with Shinori. I'll need a bit of time to think about the otehr scum members. Specifically I'm not sure scum!Mich and scum!Shinori woudl argue like that in the thread. The reasoning on both sides is bad enough to make me think its purposeful bussing but the constant back and forth about misreading each others posts feels unlikely to come from scum/scum.

I bolded the parts where he actually says Sully is scum; italicized the parts where he's just talking about him or asking other people about him. Yes, he has reasons to vote based on interactions with flipped scum and Sully jumping votes a lot, which I acknowledged in every post talking about his Sully case. I didn't say he had no reasons! I just asked him to flesh out his case because:

a) He makes the claim that Sully is hopping onto large wagons opportunistically and doesn't have an example. He asks other people to give examples! but sure, me asking him to reread sully so that he gives his own examples is scummy

b) also, earlier when Bartozio made this point this was his response:

On 12/3/2017 at 6:49 PM, kirsche said:

His Sully case is good, I would like him to explain what scum!Sully is trying to achieve by just hopping about and voting people who are under pressure though.

this implies that at this point he did not consider that hopping about and voting people who are under pressure was scummy.

then he talks about how I'm scummy for saying his Sully case is bad because he asks other people questions. I'm not saying that's bad! Asking people for their opinions on perspectives is good! But that's not a case.

next, I literally said "I only waffled on Shinori in one post" but was consistently scumreading him otherwise and then to rebut that kirsche quoted that post and wrote two paragraphs about it; cool. He said in his first post that he would reread my D2 on Shinori and evidently he hasn't because starting D2 I talked about Shinori's posts having scum intent a lot more.

it doesn't matter if you guys were playing OC like NOC; being able to communicate outside of thread makes it a completely different situation because Prims was able to take charge and town lead, which he couldn't have done in NOC. it's a lot easier to be proactive in OC

doing the big Prims write-up just to kill him is a point in your favour (which I noted on D2 and is why I didn't push you before) but also it gave you an excuse to not say as much at the beginning of the phase?

my point wrt bringing up the smogon game wasn't wrt early-bussing but wrt how hard I bus but if you want to argue I'd change my play based on losing that game whatever; I don't want to get into self meta too much

[BBM]

also the bit about me coming into the thread confident despite Baldrick flipping town is dumb. I'm more confident because we finally got an actual scum flip with which to analyze interactions as opposed to discussing them based on theories of who's scum. and yeah I was really disappointed and annoyed at myself after Baldrick flipped town but that was 24 hours earlier. If I couldn't get over my scumreads being wrong in that amount of time I wouldn't be very good at mafia

tl dr of me vs kirsche

me: please reread sully to flesh out your case because half of it is asking other people questions and waffling on Sully; also part of your case on Sully is that he's super jumpy but you didn't think that was scummy earlier

kirsche: asking me to expand on my case without attacking it directly is subtly undermining it and is scummy; also you waffled on Shinori; also the reasons people are townreading you are bad

me: no but like your sully case is barely a case; looking at the post it was clearly supposed to be secondary to a Shinori case, so talk more about it to flesh it out; also I did in fact directly attack the case itself; also I only waffled on Shinori in one post; people having bad reasons for townreading me don't make me scum

kirsche: yes it wasn't that fleshed out but you saying it was "barely" a case is scummy; you're still not directly attacking my case; also all my questions are extremely important to developing an opinion; also here is a post where you waffle on Shinori; also you saying I waffled on Sully is hypocritical because you waffled on Shinori

me: questions are important but they're not actually a case; also here is my attack on your case again; also I already said I waffled on Shinori in one post, that doesn't mean I waffled on him as a whole

[SullyMcGully]

11 minutes ago, kirsche said:

I'm saying what people are saying is wrong because it is wrong. Saying I was particularly suspicious or very "anti baldrick" D1 is wrong, saying I was defending Baldrick by not wanting to commit to a lynch 24 horus into the day on someone I had never read is wrong, saying I was defending you by asking opinions about where you had been coached is wrong. These are factually incorrect statement that are being used to forge scumreads of me. Were they not wrong Sully? Please point out to me how these statements or impressions were correct.

Okay, so the last two things you mentioned there were things I never actually said. I did say you were "anti-Baldrick" because you were one of the first to raise that point and you pretty much kept at him in some way or another from then on. However, I never said anything about your other two points. I've never seen a good time for a hammer in this game, and agreeing with the third one would be like me outright saying I'm scum. Are you asking me for my opinion on something BBM said? Because I'm not scumreading you on either of those last two things and would disagree with those who do.

1 hour ago, kirsche said:

My Sully case wasn't the most indepth, it isn't nearly as complex and well thought out as my case on you, but dismissing the reasons that I have made and saying that "I barely had a Sully case" just frankly isn't true. I have my reasons for it, part of it is PoE, but I believe that he has bad interactions with our flipped scum, had made bad votes all through the game including but not limited to this jump on me. Are these reasons bad reasons for calling someone scum? Are they scummy reasons?

I find the bolded part interesting. Your case on me may have been poor, but I don't think what you have on BBM is much better. It's not that you don't raise any points, and I'll admit that you've made me reconsider my opinions on BBM, but this case lacks convincing power. As someone who has sheeped a few cases throughout this game, I can at least tell the strong ones from the weak ones, and yours is pretty weak. Maybe all of that stuff about BBM is true, but there's a fair chance it isn't. And while I'm sure it must be stressful for you under all the pressure you are currently under, I just don't see how that merits all of this... certainty. I dare say I've made a case or two that is stronger than yours, and I wouldn't call any of them complex or well-thought out. You seem desperate to pass off a loose assortment of ideas as undeniable fact, and it isn't making it any more believable.

Also, I don't plan on defending BBM that much because he can probably do a much better job of it than I can, but allow me to say one thing: I don't blame him for waffling on Shinori. He very well could have done that for the same reason that I never had much of an opinion on him. Shinori's (and also Michelaar's) tone was too aggressive and emotional for me to really understand what was supposed to be logical and what was supposed to be a rant, so I ended up with multiple confusing reads which I decided not to post because they were all so minor. It's hard to say "Shinori is scummy because he overreacted to this" when he overreacts to everything and is proud of it.

@kirsche: you aren't caught up on rereading, how about recent history? Do you think there was anything scummy in that exchange between Bartozio, Marth, and Elieson?

@everyone currently suspecting Elieson: do you think the Shinori/Michelaar hatematch could have been faked?

@Elieson: how is it that I actually think Michelaar was doing a better job at being inconspicuous than you?

[Percivalé]

I'm attempting to read the BBM case, I don't think it's going to convince me to vote BBM though. 

[charlie_]

5 hours ago, kirsche said:

@SB. Would a theoretical Sk count towards the announced *ylo?

*YLO occurs when the town faction can be endgamed by the beginning of the following day. If the game can continue no matter what, an *YLO warning will not appear.

[Percivalé]

on elie; i remember being pretty ok at being able to read scum!elie and so far i feel like town!elie would have participated a lot more (despite being behind on the thread, i realize that's a thing) but scum!elie is a lot more distant and also his reads are really weird. elie's hop on marth was meh and then he sulked away

ftr elie i was scumreading kirsche largely off of PoE rip.

i have my reasons to believe in a sully/mich scumteam and i'm sorry i can't really be open about them right now.

kirsche's sudden hop to bbm is weird and it reads the same way his prims vote did but see that's where i'm starting to doubt he might be scum. for one it's highly unlikely a bbm wagon is going to happen today and it'd be really ballsy to try to push one as scum. i don't know how this benefits him as scum and i also don't know how nightkilling your scumread that read you as scum benefits him as scum either. 

i really don't think there's an sk in a game this small. i was starting to think there might be an itp and that the itp was mack but obviously that wasn't true. bart claiming tracker doesn't clear him as town because he outed a potential itp instead of a scum and scum trackers exist so i don't think bart's claim should clear him (though would he be ballsy enough to do what he did as scum idk).