Persona 5 Mafia - Game Over

[SullyMcGully]

Just now, Baldrick said:

I legit forgot about the 5 votes to lynch so I'm relieved I just made it up.

Never. Do. That. Again.

Though I guess if I had paid better attention to the rules, I wouldn't have been worried.

[SullyMcGully]

So was that fake-up supposed to make somebody confess something?

[Prims]

30 minutes ago, Shinori said:

One thing though prims, I never said it was crap logic and literally said I CAN SEE THE LOGIC IN WHAT MACK WAS SAYING.

Fair enough. My reading comprehension has been garbage this game.

Not really feeling Shinori lynch today overall. Ken and Mack are the best targets imo.

[Refa]

1 hour ago, Prims said:

Feeling better about both BBM and Marth after their recent content and interactions with each other.

Why that?

1 hour ago, BBM said:

I try to avoid using this word but basically it feels like Sully is misrepresenting both mine and Shinori's play in arguing that we don't have content, and his reasons for scumreading and townreading people aren't consistent. I think both those things are more likely to come from scum.

What makes you think he's intentionally misrepresenting you guys as opposed having a bad read?  That's my issue with your case, because I feel like it doesn't explain why he's scum, but more how he could do the actions as scum, if that makes any sense.  Don't know if you're doing it on purpose or not but it's bugging me!

36 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

##Activate Persona Power: Wish Granting

I hope the votals as they stand are correct.

What role was this supposed to fake, I genuinely don't get it.

I'd be okay with lynching Ken, but it honestly feels like a shot in the dark at this point.  I at least want to update my BBM and Sully reads before I make any vote changes.

[Refa]

@SB. Is there any chance Ken M. could get subbed before the end of the day?

[SB.]

If there's no sign of Ken by the time I wake up (<6 hours probably), I'll look for a sub. 

[BBM]

I think Baldrick was just making a joke rather than trying to fake a particular role.

@Refa- I get what you mean but I don't really know what else to say? I don't think it's an issue of Sully just being "wrong" because I don't think it's a subjective thing and we're interpreting it differently. It's one thing to say that my logic is bad or whatever, but I don't see how you could read my posts and come out with the conclusion that I don't have reads or that I'm not making unique points. It's not just missing one or two posts like with the Marth thing, he would have had to miss half my posts. It just seems like trying to make stuff up to me.

Sully, you've posted a bunch of times since then and haven't really said anything about my case on you or my question about your Shinori case.

[SullyMcGully]

I've been working on a big post for the past thirty minutes. I'm almost done.

[Baldrick]

Was just letting off steam, I also want this day to be over.

@Shinori: Mackc thought your weak reasoning was enough of a reason to unvote Michelaar and vote you. Why did you not tell him you were after a reaction? Do you agree with him that there's scum on his wagon?

@BBM; can you give me an example of Sully's reasons for scumreading and townreading people not being consistent?

 

[SullyMcGully]

3 hours ago, BBM said:

I think I'm going to go with this actually: ##Vote: Sully

His last few posts make me uncomfortable because it feels like he's just hopping around pressuring people who don't have votes down at the moment or haven't posted in a while and taking that to accuse them of not contributing- namely he accuses both me and Shinori of having contributed little or having no reads when I don't think that's true. It also doesn't mesh with his reason for not being worried about Ken, which is that scum would be aware of not having reads and fix that. The other bit about Ken is also kind of meaningless: "if Ken's next post is bad I'll think he's scum and if Ken's next post is good I'll think he's town". No shit?

Plus, the explanation for the initial Shinori vote here is wack. What does your opinion of the alignment of the people who voted Shinori before you have to do with why you find him suspicious?

@BBM The difference between you/Shinori and Ken is that you two have posts, Ken does not. Mafia that is trying to survive wants to fit in but Ken's actions (or lack thereof) stick out like a sore thumb. If he's mafia, he's terrible at it. On the other hand, skilled mafia would post as frequently as possible, trying to give the illusion of having actual content while rarely taking a side. That's the kind of behavior I see from you in particular, I'm not as suspicious of Shinori and I only really suspected him because of the voting irregularity (which he cleared up) and the rageposting (which seems to be normal for him). However, you have consistently

1) posted with neutral content, like when you correct people on other people's posts. That could be townplay, but it could also be a convenient way of contributing to the conversation and seeming useful without actually saying anything unique.

2) posted with no real reads, like when you say several people are suspicious but don't settle on anyone in particular. The most serious leads you've had were Mack, which was early enough that it could've gone anywhere, and me. I have a paragraph on that last dude.

When people target me, it comes across as scummy to me because I'm the easiest to take advantage of. I've already made mistakes that have made me seem suspicious due to my inexperience with Mafia, and I'll probably make mistakes again. This post might be a flippin' mistake, I wouldn't know! But I'll bet whoever the Mafioso are would be looking to paint a target on my back since I have the highest chances of slipping up. And the fact that your most serious read in the game is on me, when I'm the least experienced and when I've just attacked you, makes me even more convinced that you might be scum.

As for that last bit in your post, do you think Ken coming back with a weak read would be less suspicious than Ken coming back with a strong one? The way I see it, Ken said he wasn't going to post any reads until he thought he had a good one (at least that's the impression I got), so if he comes back and has a poor read, it means he was lying about his reason for not posting a read, which is very scummy.

That said, with how long Ken has been out, I would be down for lynching him, as unless he has a good excuse for not showing up. I doubt he's really interested in this game, whether he's Mafia or not he should know how suspicious this is.

 

[SullyMcGully]

Allow me to clarify: I still don't think Ken is extremely scummy, his absence seems more like real-life obligations or general disinterest in the game than scum trying to hide. But if it came down to it, I would consolidate on Ken. Really, all we have to go off of for Ken was a charged post that came out shortly after RVS ended. I don't think he's more scummy for not posting after that, if he was scum trying to survive he would have posted or something, he could be scum but if he is he's lost the will to live.

[Refa]

7 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

But I'll bet whoever the Mafioso are would be looking to paint a target on my back since I have the highest chances of slipping up.

Are you sure you're not the mafias, though????

[SullyMcGully]

That's for you to decide. However, you should still be able to admit that if there was a town newb in the game, he'd be a prime target for mislynch.

[Refa]

I'm just shitposting because I want to see what BBM's response to you is before coming to a conclusion on that front.  I also need another reply from Marth, and ideally Ken M. or his sub will be around to shed some light on that slot before the end of the day.  Barring any new revelations, I'm basically done for the day so messing around is all I've got.

[SullyMcGully]

OK, I get it. This game is so much more serious than Kemono Friends... but that one was a little too lighthearted, wasn't it?

[Percivalé]

finally off work post impending

[Refa]

7 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

OK, I get it. This game is so much more serious than Kemono Friends... but that one was a little too lighthearted, wasn't it?

The great thing about being town is that as long as you're not an asshole, you can do whatever you want and if someone scumreads you for it, it's definitely on them not you.

[Bluedoom]

I'm kind of busy atm, going to uni soon. Open to answering any questions right now.

[SullyMcGully]

24 minutes ago, Refa said:

The great thing about being town is that as long as you're not an asshole, you can do whatever you want and if someone scumreads you for it, it's definitely on them not you.

I don't know. I'm town of course, but sometimes I feel like scum 'cuz I'm always worried about my reputation. I guess I need to lighten up a bit.

 

[Refa]

6 minutes ago, Magnificence Incarnate said:

I'm kind of busy atm, going to uni soon. Open to answering any questions right now.

Can you respond to the wall of text I quoted you multiple times on?  Specifically the parts addressed to you, although others would not be unwelcome.

[Bluedoom]

I agree with your analysis of Mack, I couldn't see his logic in thinking that there were scum on his wagon. If you're agreeing that the cases on you are good, what makes you think that some of them might be scum? Also, while I think that the realization of why his Mich vote might be bad is NAI(there's a consistent train of thought over the paragraphs), the Mich vote itself shouldn't be coming from Town!Mack IMO. Like, he knows Mich's play, so what does town!mack expect from a push on mich here? 

I'd vote Mack over Ken but Ken lynch nets better associative reads IMO, need to note that. Ken Masters needs to claim when he gets on, I can't see anything else changing the majority opinion on him.

I think my issue with Sully is similar to yours but he has become more passive during the later half of this phase, and the Shinori vote shows that. Clubbing Bart and Mich's reasons together when they're in fact different shows that he isn't reading the game properly.

In my defence, I was skimming the thread and keeping my vote there because I had to go to uni at that time. But yeah, I can see why you'd be worried by that.

[Bluedoom]

@Baldrick Have an issue here and I know I townread you earlier but you've become passive over the 2nd half as well. You've been consistently scumreading me and finding reasons for why i can't be town, so much to the point that you interject a convo between BBM and I to show how my actions have scum intent. So I need to ask:

 

In what world is Ken Masters your strongest scumread? Why are you voteparking there? The obvious move for town here is to vote me if you think I can't be town, yet you've been sitting on that Ken vote based on RVS.

[Zkirsche]

Prims do you think Ken couldn't be the kind of town that hates D1 and what makes his play so different from other people like that, e.g. Elieson. I've definitely seen this kind of play before and I'm not convinced its scum or a good lynch when there's a lot more in terms of interactions. Why would scum behave the way he is playing?

Quote

Secondly, he's not scumreading Shinori for anything other than being the weakest vote on his wagon, which is bad.

@Refa: The way I saw it is that Mack thought that Shinori was scum trying to find any reason at all to hop onto the wagon, whereas you and BBm were town trying to pressure him and look for clues. I think it's a bit wrong to simplify his townread on BBM as "he's uh uh townie" as he explained that he thinks BBM is trying to start conversations, which he claims is pushing towns agenda (agreeable enough imo). Iunno I think you're starting to get tunnel vision here.

Bizz/Quote is very forgettable and I'm having a hard time remembering his reads. I know he didn't like Bart but that seems to be it tbh.

BBM is flip flopping all over the place and its starting to bug me. He unvotes Marth as quickly as he voted him, seemingly content that Marth is trying to townread people (don't really get this, scum can easily fake town reads because they know who is town. Would like an explanation). He then leaves his vote open to be decided on later, which is fine imo, saying he'll decide on either Ken or Shinori later and prodding Baldrick who I agree is kind of in the background (because I'm one to talk). He then spends the next post waffling about Shinori with no real conclusion on him. He then votes neither and votes Sully for voting people "who don't have votes down at the moment or haven't posted in a while". For starters I think this is inaccurate, here's one of Sully's posts just the previous page:

Quote

Now that you have replied, I'm a little bit more suspicious about you. I just needed a simple explanation of your actions, and judging by the wording in Bart's post, that's all he wanted as well. What we got were a series of very charged posts telling us how illogical we were for wanting answers. Seems like the nice, town-friendly thing to do would have been to calmly explain why you did what you did.

The extra emotional force would be understandable if you were talking to people you think are scum. But you haven't posted any reads yet, so your reaction is kind of confusing. You seem more defensive than what our questions merited. Which one of us do you think is scum trying to get you mislynched? Because when you attack everybody's intelligence like that, you seem less like a team player and more like scum yourself.

You told mich you weren't flustered, and I think that's true. You aren't flustered, you're angry. Whether this is just your personality or you trying to hide something is something I'm trying to figure out. 

Now yes, he does mention that Shinori hasn't posted any reads yet but I don't think its' entirely inaccurate to say so as a lot of Shinori's content was reactionary to the cases put forth against him, he of course having a read on Marth and apparently myself (would still like that clarified a bit more @Shinori). However a big part of this is the tone that Shinori took that didn't sit right with Sully. Then Sully unvotes Shinori after he understood Shinori as a person more whcih alleviates some of this concern and switches to you after discussing what he felt was wrong with you before hand.. This all feels very natural to me and not really coming from a scum perspective but I suppose I am biased. I just think you are guilty of what you are accusing Sully of - it was not only the reads but also the tone of Shinori's posts that warranted concern with Sully on page 7.

HOWEVER, all of this is irrelevant as the reason Sully voted Shinori is because of "the timing of his vote" which has rightly been called out as ridiculous. The only part of your case that kind of rings true is that he is hopping his vote around and that the initial vote justification is wack. But being wrong doesn't mean he is scum, I would like to know a bit more about the scum motivation for these two things in particular, not the misrep stuff.

What do you think of Shinori's posts on page 8? What do you think of the more minor characters in this game e.g. Prims, Refa, Bartozio?

Honestly I think I was being a bit too paranoid with Marth before, his page 6 stuff was good. Prims has kind of resigned himself to a Ken lynch which I'm not very happy with, kind of forgettable prods on people too. Baldrick and Bartozio are still kind of floating in the background imo and I will need to reread them. Kind of focused too much on the Sully/Mack/BBM/Marth situation. Shinori's recent reads post was mediocre imo, lots of gut reads, and I wasn't very enamored by their BBM vote but I want to reread his argument again to get some more clarification on that I think. Sully's post this page is town imo because it's all stuff I agree with (potentially very biased here) but they are town because of their confirmation post anyway imo, scum wouldn't post that when they have teammates to talk to.

BBM >> Prims > Shinori

I still don't have a lot of scum reads. Concerned I'm starting to tunnel on BBM like I did with Snike but I still feel like this is the best option right now.

[Mackc2]

Wow okay alot sure turned up while I was asleep, I'm going to respond to thing I saw in some of the earlier posts first as a little make up on things that bothered me... haven't read the two most recent pages yet but I feel I am just going to start forgetting things if I do 

8 hours ago, Shinori said:

Ass reasoning for a vote reason.  Why the fuck would I leave my vote on Mack after he responded and I got a reaction that was favorable.  Why would I respond to mack's reasoning for voting me when it is literally "I think one of the 4 people who voted me on page 2/3 is scum and Shinori WHO STATED HE WAS SHEEPING IN HIS VOTE has the weakest reasoning because he's sheeping the vote"  Like really, what do you expect me to respond to that with? There are no counter arguments for me to state to mack, My vote was a weak sheeping vote fishing for a reaction.

Fucking mack wagon winding down, getting flack for it, you kidding me?  I NEVER expected mack to actually be lynched, thought his first post was weird wanted a reaction, got a reaction, also got a lot of other people talking about mack and other parts of the game.  Also getting flak for it? The other person who "gave me flak" was mack and his reasoning for voting me IS poor and there is literally NOTHING I could, or SHOULD respond to his vote with.

Poor reasoning.  Literally the question asked to me up above in his previous post was asking me about my opinion on BBM's post, he thinks I didn't like his initial post on Mack which I never said so that's literally a vote on me based on something in his own head.  On one hand it's funny as fuck because he literally goes "Yeah Shino said this even though he didn't, I find that scummy" On the other hand I see nothing but poor logic.

Gonna go reread Baldrick, mich and bartozio to see who I'm voting.

I agree with Shinori here, there is nothing odd about their vote swap or its timing, I answered their question, they no longer found me Sus and decided someone else was more sus. I can also accept that you hopped on my wagon to sheep some pressure on me. But your attitude about it really isn't great, essentially calling the opposition fucking stupid isn't a good way to win arguments and its counterproductive but that's not really alignment indicative.

That said I don't like that you voted BBM for doing things that you had been doing up until that point, namely you called him out for not pushing towns agenda while you weren't really doing much up until that point but sitting on your vote on me and commenting on me and Ken once, and also for not posting deep post. That said I have a bad feeling about you but I need to read a bit more before I can say if I still find you most scummy.

##Unvote

7 hours ago, Refa said:

@Magnificence Incarnate It doesn't make me feel any better about him.  His Michelaar case just doesn't read as genuine to me.  Okay, I can buy him being like "this pressure was a mistake" but I don't like how it still took him several paragraphs after that to change his vote.  Additionally, the part where he says he doesn't specifically want Michelaar to talk more but anyone who's not posting is a bit contradictory considering he voted Michelaar specifically and hasn't even so much as thrown shade at the other guys.

I don't get how anyone felt better after his vote analysis.  He townreads me for giving him a chance to defend himself, townreads BBM because he's uh uh townie, and Sully for having decent reasons to scumread him, which leaves Shinori because he has the weakest reasoning on the wagon.  First of all, I'm pretty sure I did the same thing when I tried to mislynch him as scum, so I don't get how that makes me town.  But forget about that, I don't really have any issues with the town reads themselves but how he's using them to justify a scum read of Shinori.  Firstly, he never explained why he thought that there had to be scum on his wagon.  Secondly, he's not scumreading Shinori for anything other than being the weakest vote on his wagon, which is bad.  If Shinori wasn't voting him, then one of the people he's townreading would have to have the weakest vote on the wagon.

Addressing that top bit, I don't like changing my vote unless I have someone else to vote for and I thought there really was no harm in just keeping my vote on Michelaar until I found someone better because there wasn't anyone else who would vote him, there is no danger of him getting lynched if I kept my vote there so thats just what I did, that said I think shinori is currently at L-1 so I am taking that away. 

Maybe I didn't word it correctly but I was thinking there might be scum on my wagon because I knew I was townie and scum knew I was townie thus scum wouldn't mind a lynch on me. If scum where to hop on wagon I wouldn't think they would be the one to create it so BBM was out and I have been reading you as town the whole time because of just how critically you have been analysing everything and how you have been asking for discord on everything. I thought if scum where to join my wagon they would do so in a way that doesn't draw much attention to themselves so they probably wouldn't add anything, thus Shinori. I did also have another reason for voting Shinori which I thought I adressed in my post, I didn't like that they where sheeping and I didn't like that they weren't adding anything of value to the conversation.  Regardless I probably have wrong assumptions on how scum would act and vote on wagons. 

 

[Percivalé]

here's how i feel before actually reading through the whole thread (trying not to rapid-fire posts like iused to but writing long posts kills me so that's why my content's been kind of weak admittedly)

my explanation was fucking awful but bart post where he sheeped read like newbscum and i think i mistakenly thought more people were pressuring him but it turned out to be just marth. i don't know what i think about marth yet.
i've stayed on the bart vote this long because i haven't had time to do more than a skim and i don't like to vote hop if i haven't read the thread, and i wanted bart to post more anyway. my one post last night before i passed out was lazy i admit that

i skimmed through the thread while i was at work multiple times and i get the feeling bbm might be scum, this is pre-me actually getting all of the reading done so i can't put my finger on it until then (if one of marth and bbm is scum i think it's more likely to be bbm)-- and also

Quote

Not reading Prims as obvtown which says a lot in itself and I don't like that.

(quote via shinori)
yeah this is how i feel too.
however later prims content has me thinking it's probably just apathetic town prims over apathetic scum prims. i have trouble telling the difference earlygame though.

before thread read i'm really unsure who i would definitely want to lynch today except that if bbm becomes a wagon i'd sit on that and if we end up lynching ken anyway (despite the flaking) i would rather that over sully

i think i said i was gutreading shinori scum and i'm re-reading his post that made me think that and i'm not really sure anymore.
i know this is dumb meta but shinori is quicker to anger/be defensive as town i feel like.

i don't think sully is scum and i know no one's flipped yet but i'm taking a closer look at the people voting for them

THREAD READ--START!!!

i'm starting from page 6 which is where i last left off. i was willing to vote ken masters if he ended up being the wagon today but he flaked which sucks, if there is scum in that slot i don't want them to get the pass for that. bart content after his bad vote i thought was ok. 

i don't know if the baldrick fakeclaim was supposed to be serious but it read me like town, & before i was really null on baldrick (didn't mention him until now because i've had trouble reading everyone this game him included)

Quote

I feel like Sully is being setup to be lynchbait, just by general thread flow.

(quote via marth)
this is a really weird comment to make BUT i don't think it reads me as scum and also i agree. i can't really explain it but this is partly why i think sully is town.
they haven't been giving off the impression that they're playing it safe like new scum would likely try to do & despite the lack of early reads it feels genuine to me. i asked them if they had any reads because i was curious but it wasn't because i thought they were scummy for it. gently prodding them if you will.

shinori calling mich scum for the vote on him doesn't really bother me it seems like something town shinori would do over scum shinori
i kind of wonder if scum is in one of the players flying under the radar like mich 
(though i realize i'd probably count as one of those players lol whoops!!)

if shinori is town i think he'd be an easy target for scum because he flusters easily

i have no fucking idea about refa. i don't know how to read him before flips happen,

and again i know no one's flipped yet, but bbm sully vote kinda reads to me as scum taking a chance at the wagon, seeing that it's kinda been teetering between being viable and dying down. i think he waffled on shinori. i don't like this post but i can't explain why. 

another thing is he doesn't seem committed to a lot of his reads from what i've seen, he keeps harping on marth's bartozio vote and repeated twice he thought my vote on bart was bad too "but i have better content" so like, does that mean you think marth is scum reaching for an easy lynch and i'm town that liked the idea or something? "wasn't as concerned about his slot" so like are you concerned about me or nah

i don't think bbm's marth vote is bad but it feels easy to me idk. i guess you could argue the bart vote was easy too though so shrug.

Quote

His last few posts make me uncomfortable because it feels like he's just hopping around pressuring people who don't have votes down at the moment or haven't posted in a while and taking that to accuse them of not contributing- namely he accuses both me and Shinori of having contributed little or having no reads when I don't think that's true. It also doesn't mesh with his reason for not being worried about Ken, which is that scum would be aware of not having reads and fix that. The other bit about Ken is also kind of meaningless: "if Ken's next post is bad I'll think he's scum and if Ken's next post is good I'll think he's town". No shit?

(quote via bbm)
shinori at the time had spent a lot of words defending himself so i could see why sully would accuse him of not having reads.

##unvote
##vote: bbm

i just don't!!!! feel!!!!!! as good!!!! about any other lynch right now. if sully ends up being a wagon today i'm not voting there