General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[ILikeKirbys]

@Ice Dragon @Jotari Thanks for the info! I'm not about to put Close Counter on my Julius and park him in front of a Legendary Marth to find out if he'd still be able to counter, if only because Julius would most likely get one-shotted thanks to his low DEF and Exalted Falchion letting LMarth ignore the -6 ATK from Loptous, but it's still good to know that he'd probably be able to counterattack if he somehow survived the first hit from Exalted Falchion.

And now, a weird question: Do you guys think we'll ever get effects like Julius's "X-Effective Damage Is Effective Vs. This Unit" for other units? I'm thinking mostly of Lukas here, who I could maybe see getting a weapon that makes him weak to Armor-Effective in exchange for some combination of effects that could justify adding a weakness to a unit who ordinarily wouldn't have that weakness (though I dunno what that could be, exactly, maybe something like Sturdy Stance 2 + Special Cooldown -1 with optional Guard When HP > 50% via refinement), but is there anyone else who could maybe end up with something like that? And would that be a terrible, terrible idea?

Also, do you ever think we'll get refinements for Poison Dagger+ and Kitty Paddle+?

Edited September 2, 2018 by ILikeKirbys

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Ice Dragon @Jotari Thanks for the info! I'm not about to put Close Counter on my Julius and park him in front of a Legendary Marth to find out if he'd still be able to counter, if only because Julius would most likely get one-shotted thanks to his low DEF and Exalted Falchion letting LMarth ignore the -6 ATK from Loptous, but it's still good to know that he'd probably be able to counterattack if he somehow survived the first hit from Exalted Falchion.

And now, a weird question: Do you guys think we'll ever get effects like Julius's "X-Effective Damage Is Effective Vs. This Unit" for other units? I'm thinking mostly of Lukas here, who I could maybe see getting a weapon that makes him weak to Armor-Effective in exchange for some combination of effects that could justify adding a weakness to a unit who ordinarily wouldn't have that weakness (though I dunno what that could be, exactly, maybe something like Sturdy Stance 2 + Special Cooldown -1 with optional Guard When HP > 50% via refinement), but is there anyone else who could maybe end up with something like that? And would that be a terrible, terrible idea?

Also, do you ever think we'll get refinements for Poison Dagger+ and Kitty Paddle+?

Well functionally anything a possible, I don't see it as too likely though. I do think it'd be cool is Ashnard had some kind of blessed armour skill that gave him access to armour buffs and weakness, though.

[Silverly]

5 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Also, do you ever think we'll get refinements for Poison Dagger+ and Kitty Paddle+?

I sure hope so. The Poison Dagger is especially outdated, and when we can have refines for other effective weapons it’s asinine that they be excluded. I don’t think it’ll happen until version 3 comes along though. 

[MilodicMellodi]

Actually, I'm against Poison Dagger getting refines for now. It won't be justified until Infantry get their own Hone/Fortify/Goad/Ward skills. Yes we do have the Tactic skills, but when everyone can make use of them it's not exactly making Infantry any better. Especially because you have to hybridize the teams to make use of them, as opposed to being able to build Infantry Emblem. Just because there are more Infantry units than there are the other movement types doesn't mean Infantry class skills can't come into play.

After that, then Poison Dagger getting its refine will be justified.

[Hilda]

9 hours ago, SilvertheShadow said:

I sure hope so. The Poison Dagger is especially outdated, and when we can have refines for other effective weapons it’s asinine that they be excluded. I don’t think it’ll happen until version 3 comes along though. 

mm the refine could be handled a bit different then other refines. Instead of branching out into SPD Atk def or res they could do:
Effective against red Infantry units
Effective against blue Infantry units
Effective against green infantry units
Effective against colorless infantry units.

I could see that working out for refined Poison daggers.

Or:
Effective against infantry sword/axe/lance
Effective against infantry  tome/staff
Effecitve against infantry bow/shuriken
effective against dragonstone users.

though i would really like the 1. option refine with effectiveness against a colortype of infantry users.

[MilodicMellodi]

5 hours ago, Hilda said:

mm the refine could be handled a bit different then other refines. Instead of branching out into SPD Atk def or res they could do:
Effective against red Infantry units
Effective against blue Infantry units
Effective against green infantry units
Effective against colorless infantry units.

I could see that working out for refined Poison daggers.

Or:
Effective against infantry sword/axe/lance
Effective against infantry  tome/staff
Effecitve against infantry bow/shuriken
effective against dragonstone users.

though i would really like the 1. option refine with effectiveness against a colortype of infantry users.

So what you're saying is that you want their refines to be less useful than the other class-slayers?

[bottlegnomes]

23 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

And now, a weird question: Do you guys think we'll ever get effects like Julius's "X-Effective Damage Is Effective Vs. This Unit" for other units? I'm thinking mostly of Lukas here, who I could maybe see getting a weapon that makes him weak to Armor-Effective in exchange for some combination of effects that could justify adding a weakness to a unit who ordinarily wouldn't have that weakness (though I dunno what that could be, exactly, maybe something like Sturdy Stance 2 + Special Cooldown -1 with optional Guard When HP > 50% via refinement), but is there anyone else who could maybe end up with something like that? And would that be a terrible, terrible idea?

Heck, built-in Bold Fighter would almost certainly justify it. If anything, though, that might be a little too good. It'd give him an open B slot which would open up a bunch of stuff. Bonfire/BF/SB/QR/CD seal making him basically a 2 move mixed-phase armor that's a complete nightmare for physical units. Or say, Moonbow/BF/DB4/Desperation, which gives him all the fun of Brash Desperation with a killer weapon at a much more manageable health threshold. Or maybe even something like Ignis/BF/Armored Blow/Wrath, to basically guaranteed ORKO with still decent survivability thanks to 44-47 defense. Sure, mages would still destroy him, and he'd have to be careful around dragons, but you'd basically have a pre-BA vanilla Hector or Zelgius level unit with 2 move all the time (though to be fair, forest terrain penalties).

EDIT: Well, maybe not Zelgius—Black Luna is ridiculous—but Hector or Arden or some other armor that dies instantly to mages and doesn't have a unique special.

Edited September 3, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Hilda]

14 hours ago, MilodicMellodi said:

So what you're saying is that you want their refines to be less useful than the other class-slayers?

There are currently 165 infantry units compared to 24 armorered, 63 cavalry units and 42 flyers. Do the math.

You really want a 12 Mt weapon that is effectiv against 56% of the currently existing units?!?!

I am not saying they cant add an additional effect that does something different on top of that. I am just saying it would be foolish to keep it the way it is and slap higher might and additional stuff on it without reconsidering what effect it would have...

I mean look at Micaiah she has effectivness against armorers and cavalry, but thats only 27ish% of the cast. which is ok.

You can give it "Effectiv against red colord infantry units and cavalry unit" on top of it and it would come out around the same %ish as Micaiah which is in my eyes fine. but if you go all effectiv against all infantry you might as well just shoot everyone that runs against such a dagger user.

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, Hilda said:

There are currently 165 infantry units compared to 24 armorered, 63 cavalry units and 42 flyers. Do the math.

You really want a 12 Mt weapon that is effectiv against 56% of the currently existing units?!?!

I am not saying they cant add an additional effect that does something different on top of that. I am just saying it would be foolish to keep it the way it is and slap higher might and additional stuff on it without reconsidering what effect it would have...

I mean look at Micaiah she has effectivness against armorers and cavalry, but thats only 27ish% of the cast. which is ok.

You can give it "Effectiv against red colord infantry units and cavalry unit" on top of it and it would come out around the same %ish as Micaiah which is in my eyes fine. but if you go all effectiv against all infantry you might as well just shoot everyone that runs against such a dagger user.

I'm confused. Doesn't the poison dagger already deal effective damage to all infantry units?

EDIT: Oh. I see you're issue is with the 12 might. Still, I think it'd be weird if it's utility was actually reduced with its refine. Whatever happens it should still deal damage to the same range of units. Not sure how useful it would be, but giving it the actual Poison Strike ability would make sense at least like thematically. That would increase its damage out put while not pushing the effective damage multiplier to ridiculous degrees given its scope.

A weapon with high might that deals effective damage to certain combinations of colours and movements isn't a bad idea though. I just don't think it should be given to something that already covers a full movement set.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

39 minutes ago, Hilda said:

You really want a 12 Mt weapon that is effectiv against 56% of the currently existing units?!?!

There is nothing that forces it to have 12 Mt.

[Corrobin]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There is nothing that forces it to have 12 Mt.

Poison Dagger+ has 5 Might. The MAX Might I think it should have is 7. Maybe 8, if you're really pushing it. But certainly not 12.

[Hilda]

26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There is nothing that forces it to have 12 Mt.

i know but i rather have a 12 mt weapon that is partially effective against some infantery users and still viable in other departments, then a 8 mt weapon thats borderline only usefull on infantry units and nowhere else... Just my suggestion

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Hilda said:

i know but i rather have a 12 mt weapon that is partially effective against some infantery users and still viable in other departments, then a 8 mt weapon thats borderline only usefull on infantry units and nowhere else... Just my suggestion

"Only useful against infantry units" is useful against 56% of the game.

[Corrobin]

Selena

• Nohrian Longsword-Effective against Armored units. If unit's Speed is equal to or higher than opponent's Speed, unit gains +7 Attack.
• Refine- When attacked at 2 Range, always use the highest of Defense or Resistance.

Hana

• Hoshidan Katana- -1 to Special cooldown. +6 to Attack and Speed if unit's current Special cooldown number is lower than opponent's.
• Refine- +10 to Special damage.

Laslow

• Dancer's Claymore- Effective against Calvary units. If unit uses a Rally, bonus is applied to all allies on team.
• Refine- + Hone Attack/Speed 2.

Saizo

• Blazing Kunai- After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Attack/Defense/Resistance-5 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions.
• Refine- At start of turn, all enemy units within two spaces take 7 out of combat damage.

Anyone want to comment on these?

[redlight]

16 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Selena

• Nohrian Longsword-Effective against Armored units. If unit's Speed is equal to or higher than opponent's Speed, unit gains +7 Attack.
• Refine- When attacked at 2 Range, always use the highest of Defense or Resistance.

Hana

• Hoshidan Katana- -1 to Special cooldown. +6 to Attack and Speed if unit's current Special cooldown number is lower than opponent's.
• Refine- +10 to Special damage.

Laslow

• Dancer's Claymore- Effective against Calvary units. If unit uses a Rally, bonus is applied to all allies on team.
• Refine- + Hone Attack/Speed 2.

Saizo

• Blazing Kunai- After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Attack/Defense/Resistance-5 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions.
• Refine- At start of turn, all enemy units within two spaces take 7 out of combat damage.

Anyone want to comment on these?

Selena: Decent, but the speed damage might to scale most of the time as her speed is good, but definitely fallen behind the times. The special refine doesn't do anything really. +4 res at least or something is what you'll get from it

Hana: I like it

Laslow: Special refine is kinda too powerful IMO, but oh well.

Kagero: I'm guessing you forgot speed? The special refine is kinda broken as you can spam it to bits

[Corrobin]

First off, that's SAIZO, not Kagero.

Second of all, I left out Speed intentionally.

Thirdly, it can't kill anyone, the "Threaten Poison", and using it means getting within range of an enemy, where they can attack you and possibly kill you.

[Hilda]

19 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

First off, that's SAIZO, not Kagero.

Second of all, I left out Speed intentionally.

Thirdly, it can't kill anyone, the "Threaten Poison", and using it means getting within range of an enemy, where they can attack you and possibly kill you.

I dont like that saizo refine, i would like to keep the -6 on all stats. Just give him the Felicia treatment but for melees.

[ILikeKirbys]

@Corrobin Here you go!

Selena: Interests me, though I think the base effect could maybe just be a flat +7 damage in that situation like the Light Brand. Outside of that, I quite like it.

Laslow: The base weapon interests me, I'd probably end up running a dual-Rally on him if he got this and I used Laslow. The Skill-Refine seems fairly pointless, as Laslow comes with Hone SPD 3 by default so you're just getting Hone ATK 2 on the weapon.

Saizo: The base weapon is a weaker refined!Smoke Dagger+, should be -6 and drop SPD too to at least be on par with that weapon. The skill-refinement... Is that a Threaten HP I see? I'm not sure I'd use it, personally (I'd go +DEF, mostly because mine's +SPD), but it's certainly interesting. Not enough to be worth running this weapon in its current form over a refined Smoke Dagger+ though, IMO. Having more stats, a little more HP, and dropping all stats would be better than Threaten HP IMO.

@bottlegnomes Damnit, I completely forgot about Fighter skills when I was writing that up! Bold Fighter would be an amazing addition to any weapon that made a unit Armored as well as Infantry, though like you said it'd probably be a bit too good. Here's what I'm thinking:

Lukas: Sharp Soldier - Sentinel's Lance | MT 16 | Grants Special Cooldown -1. Grants ATK/DEF +4 when attacked. | This unit is additionally considered Armored for the purposes of Skills and Effective Damage. When unit's HP > 50%, grants Special Charge +1 per attack to this unit and inflicts Special Charge -1 on foe during combat.

Gives Lukas a fairly basic personal weapon, being a 16-MT Slaying weapon with built-in Sturdy Stance 2 (which should always be useful on an Enemy Phase unit like Lukas), and gives the option to promote Lukas into an Infantry/Armor (So Lukas benefits from Infantry Pulse/Rush/Flash as well as Hone/Fortify Armor and can act as a recipient of Armor March so that his Armored allies can get +1 MOV even though he can't actually benefit from it himself, but he'll also be vulnerable to anti-Infantry and anti-Armor weapons, and he won't be able to get rid of the latter weakness since he can't equip Svalinn Shield like a real Armor) and get Special Fighter 3 on his weapon, making him quite a bit sturdier than he normally is (since he'll have, assuming neutral stats and skill-refine with no other skills, 48 HP and 42 DEF on Enemy Phase with accelerated Special Charge for himself and slowed Special Charge for his foes as long as he has half HP or more). If nothing else, Lukas could be a decent choice to run on mixed teams if his ally has Armor March so he and his Armored buddy can both move two spaces.

I dunno how good that would be, but it'd at least be something different.

And since that would effectively powercreep Shiro's Bright Naginata, as it's got the Sturdy Stance, but also a Slaying effect and Special Fighter and making-Lukas-an-Armor-and-an-Infantry which has its benefits...

Shiro: Raw Talent - Bright Naginata [Refine] | MT 16 | Grants ATK/DEF +6 when foe initiates combat. | When in combat with foe using Sword, this unit performs a follow-up attack and foe does not.

Rather than getting Slaying effect, Shiro upgrades to Sturdy Stance 3, buffing his ATK and DEF more on Enemy Phase, and can also get Swordbreaker Infinity as well, to better deal with the many swordies in Heroes (though it won't necessarily stop Sword Armors with Bold Fighter/Vengeful Fighter/Follow-Up Ring from doubling, it will turn their auto-double into a regular SPD check to double, which shouldn't happen most of the time thanks to Shiro's actually-not-bad neutral SPD). It's probably nothing super amazing, but it gives Shiro the ability to always beat his dad a place as an anti-Sword unit with high ATK and DEF and respectable HP.

[Ice Dragon]

I would personally like to see Saizo get something that references his Japanese title, 爆炎使い, "Wielder of Explosive Flame", which comes off in my head as "I throw incendiary bombs everywhere":

Explosive Shuriken: 14 Mt. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res -6 on and deals 7 damage to target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions.
Unique refine: After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts status on target and foes within 2 spaces of target preventing counterattacks through their next actions.

If Candlelight is too powerful, Panic makes sense for the weapon as well. As does Gravity. Things go boom. Debuffs everywhere.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[Jotari]

Beloved Zofia: Mt 16, Rng 1

Grants Def+3. At the start of combat, if unit's HP = 100%, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5, but after combat, if uint attacked, deals 4 damage to unit.

At the start of every second turn, restore 10HP.

Beloved Zofia has a recovery effect in Shadows of Valentia, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to give it one here. It'd make Fallen Celica a bit more self sustainable as she wouldn't need to depend on outside help (or using up her B slot) to heal.

 

Ragnarok: Mt 16, Rng 2

At the start of combat, if unit's HP = 100%, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5, but after combat, if unit attacked, deals 4 damage to unit.

Unit can counter attack regardless of foe's range. If foe's range = 1, calculates damage using the lower of defense and resistance.

To keep normal Celica on par with her alts, I think we should boost her Ragnarok effect to be as good as Beloved Zofia's. Ragnarok Omega's range is 1 so I think close counter makes sense on it too. Could work well with her weapon now providing defensive boosts too. I also gave her an inverted breath effect to mimic how she can use sword or magic.

 

[MilodicMellodi]

11 hours ago, Hilda said:

There are currently 165 infantry units compared to 24 armorered, 63 cavalry units and 42 flyers. Do the math.

You really want a 12 Mt weapon that is effective against 56% of the currently existing units?!?!

And yet everyone can only use up to 4 units at a time in normal gameplay (ignoring Rival Domains). I don't know why everyone thinks that more common = more powerful, especially in a game where almost all the game's content involves using a max of 4 units at a time. The only thing that would make infantry "over-powered" in the game would be the Hero Merit mechanic, which is not a battle mechanic.

In battle, Infantry are only powerful because of their lack of exploitable weaknesses. Fliers are weak to bows and certain tomes, but generally have higher Res and the ability to travel over mountain and water terrain (as well as the ability to travel over forest terrain without movement reduction). Armored units tend to have higher BST at the cost of having the lowest movement without skill assistance. Cavalry have the highest movement at 3, at the cost of being unable to traverse forest terrain. Infantry? Infantry is the balance between the 3...not just in movement, but in stats. Lately though, due to how much IS has been paying attention to the non-Infantry movement types in comparison to Infantry themselves, it's apparent that Infantry are falling out of favor. And less favor means less power, as the other movement types move up in the world while Infantry units stagnate. It's quite honestly a godsend Odin and Celica are getting new weapons to play with, because frankly I haven't seen an Arena team with more than 2 Infantry units at a time since before they introduced the Tactic skills.

That's why I said that Infantry units need their own class Hone/Fortify/Goad/Ward skills before justifying Poison Dagger getting refines. However, limiting its usefulness compared to other class-slayers because of something simple as a population difference in a game where the armies have a fixed population discredits and shames the weapon's potential, not to mention the potential of the units that can make use of said weapon.

Edited September 4, 2018 by MilodicMellodi

[redlight]

@Corrobin Whoops. My bad. I was thinking of Kagero from a Kagero BHB solo I watched and that probably confused me

The thing is that the unrefined effect is too weak. Daggers usually have something in addition to the def/res debuffs. You've got def/res buffs, atk/spd debuffs, cooldown acceleration, +10 damage when special triggers, etc. New legendary weapons as unrefined for the most part are carbon copies or more powerful variants of the unit's previous default weapon. Occasionally they're nothing like the unit's previous default weapon, but that only applies to brave and silver weapons. So it's really bothering me that you just removed the speed debuff. If I had to give it and smoke dagger a stat refine then I'd go with smoke dagger as it simply does more despite the other having slightly more might. Kind of a "why use slaying weapon over silver weapon" argument. And I just noticed that you decreased the debuff value. Probably typo

I didn't say it could kill anyone. I just said it's abusable. While yes, you can get killed if you go too close, but if you hind behind a ally, wall or trench you can basically sap your opponents hp without consuming a action. At least for healers they have to decide whether they want to heal, nuke or move

[Ice Dragon]

27 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

Occasionally they're nothing like the unit's previous default weapon, but that only applies to brave and silver weapons.

Lightning Breath+ → Breath of Fog
Wo Dao+ → Nameless Blade

[MilodicMellodi]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Wo Dao+ → Nameless Blade

Nameless Blade's refinement has a Wo Dao effect in addition to its Killer effect, hence why Killing Edge+ users like Fir AND Wo Dao+ users like Karel can use Nameless Blade.

[redlight]

23 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Lightning Breath+ → Breath of Fog
Wo Dao+ → Nameless Blade

UwU. My bad. Silly me