Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Kojima wrote every Metal Gear game and those ended up a mess of retcoms and plot holes. 

So Maeda clearly didn't care as much when it came to Awakening.

You know Big Boss revealing to Snake that he's his father was a complete retcon in Metal Gear Solid. It's not obvious because the events they refer to were a game unto itself, but in the original MSX Metal Gear 2 Big Boss says nothing of the sort. He just dies. It's a situation where someone actually playing through the series canonically would be more lost than someone just jumping in at the most popular title. It's kind of hilarious how major a revelation that is to be just casually dropped in as a by the way this conversation happened. Like fair enough if you want to have your plot retconning something from the previous game shouldn't be off limits, but it's a pretty massive plot point here that I can't help but feel they could have actually implemented in Metal Gear Solid more naturally. They really need to get around to remaking the first two games with Big Bosses recontexualized character, instead of just making more Big Boss games that clog up the timeline in increasingly nonsensical ways. Well that's my Metal Gear 2 Cents. Also the Game Boy Colour game is great.

[Ottservia]

7 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Maeda was also working with lore he had a hand in originally creating with Blazing Blade. Here he is pissing all over lore set down by Kaga, and the lack of care and respect shows.

He was the also the lead writer behind the FE 1 and 3 remakes. New mystery is actually where he made his directorial debut and by most accounts shadow dragon’s story is considered good. So obviously he does care about the world and such of those games otherwise those remakes wouldn’t be as faithful as they had been. Kris aside anyway. 

 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

The game certainty tries removes Whalhart from the equation by not including him in this plot at all. It makes no mention of Yen'fay trying to protect Say'ri from Whalhart, only Excellus. That he fears Whalhart's might is speculation. And even within the plot it's pretty erroneous. As this volcano battle is the decisive battle of the arc. After this battle Yen'fay's army joins Chrom's and suddenly Whalhart is holed up in his castle making his last stand, the war is effectively over. The whole reason Whalhart is winning at the point of this battle is because he has Yen'fay and Yen'fay controls a considerable host. So if Yen'fay thinks at this point that the best decision is to attack Chrom (by herding his sister into a volcano where she could be easily killed) instead of doing what everyone and their mother is telling him to do (join Chrom) despite the fact that Chrom and him our never Whalhart considerable, and his army seems quite willing to do so consider they do it on their own volition the moment Yen'fay himself is out of the picture. And this isn't a matter of honour as it's made clear fighting with for Whalhart is a stain on his honour.

So we have a character with the motivation to not fight the heroes (because his sister is among them and Robin has organised it so the battle happens in a naturally dangerous environment), a motivation to fight the antagonist (because that's what quote unquote any true Chon'sin would do), a means to join the heroes (given one of them is his sister who would vouch for him once his position is explained) and let's face it, no motivation at all to trust Excellus nor any reason at this point to believe he can carry out his blackmail (which Excellus himself admits too after Yen'fay is dead). The only way this plot can work is if Excellus managed to put a magical bomb inside Say'ri earlier that's never directly mentioned and then chooses to honourably keep his deal with Yen'fay following the latters death.

And that’s my point the fact that his plan doesn’t work is kind of the point. The story doesn’t reward him for going through with it. His plan isn’t supposed to work. It’s riddled with flaws and it’s because of those flaws that he ultimately dies upholding a deal that held very little weight to begin with. Yen’fey never wanted Say’ri to know the truth as to not burden her with grief but Excellus told her anyway. Again his plan ultimately backfires. Could it been handled with more nuance? Definitely but I do see what they were trying to do and for me that’s enough in this case.

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

He was the also the lead writer behind the FE 1 and 3 remakes. New mystery is actually where he made his directorial debut and by most accounts shadow dragon’s story is considered good. So obviously he does care about the world and such of those games otherwise those remakes wouldn’t be as faithful as they had been. Kris aside anyway. 

 

And that’s my point the fact that his plan doesn’t work is kind of the point. The story doesn’t reward him for going through with it. His plan isn’t supposed to work. It’s riddled with flaws and it’s because of those flaws that he ultimately dies upholding a deal that held very little weight to begin with. Yen’fey never wanted Say’ri to know the truth as to not burden her with grief but Excellus told her anyway. Again his plan ultimately backfires. Could it been handled with more nuance? Definitely but I do see what they were trying to do and for me that’s enough in this case.

There's a difference between his plan being flawed and his plan being so completely contradictory to his actual motives that he must be mentally unsound to to think that tossing his sister into a volcano is some how protecting her. Seeing what they're doing is simply not enough. I can have an opinion on what pretty much every writer but the ones who are intentionally being vague are doing. Like again this is a defensive of criticism that is outright universal. I can see what the writer is trying to do in The Room or The Rise of Skywalker, it doesn't stop them being terrible movies. The story actually has to make sense under it's own logic too. Yen'fay wants to protect his sister, that is his stated motivation. The intention is that he stays true to this motivation albeit in a misguided way that causes tragedy for both him and her. But the actual result in the game is that none of the actions we see him take (and by actions I really mean the one singular action as he's only around for a single chapter and only does one thing) actually further that motivation at all. It's not well meaning, but misguided, it's just outright contradictory.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

34 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There's a difference between his plan being flawed and his plan being so completely contradictory to his actual motives that he must be mentally unsound to to think that tossing his sister into a volcano is some how protecting her. Seeing what they're doing is simply not enough. I can have an opinion on what pretty much every writer but the ones who are intentionally being vague are doing. Like again this is a defensive of criticism that is outright universal. I can see what the writer is trying to do in The Room or The Rise of Skywalker, it doesn't stop them being terrible movies. The story actually has to make sense under it's own logic too. Yen'fay wants to protect his sister, that is his stated motivation. The intention is that he stays true to this motivation albeit in a misguided way that causes tragedy for both him and her. But the actual result in the game is that none of the actions we see him take (and by actions I really mean the one singular action as he's only around for a single chapter and only does one thing) actually further that motivation at all. It's not well meaning, but misguided, it's just outright contradictory.

If I can buy into why Itachi did what he did in order to protect his brother(as in psychology torture him by forcing him to watch the slaughtering of his clan for 72 hours on repeat in a psychedelic illusion), then what Yen’fey did here is quite tame in comparison. Seriously if I can understand and sympathize with Itachi, then I can understand and sympathize with anyone. The dude literally threatened to pull his brother’s eyes out and put him in an illusion where he did exactly that. An illusion that was near indistinguishable from reality mind you. Again, Yen’fey’s actions are quite tame in comparison to that.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Ottservia

[Etrurian emperor]

50 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

New mystery is actually where he made his directorial debut and by most accounts shadow dragon’s story is considered good.

mmm not entirely. Shadow Dragon barely had a story. Sure its competent and makes few mistakes but only because it didn't do anything at all. 

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

You know Big Boss revealing to Snake that he's his father was a complete retcon in Metal Gear Solid. It's not obvious because the events they refer to were a game unto itself, but in the original MSX Metal Gear 2 Big Boss says nothing of the sort. He just dies. It's a situation where someone actually playing through the series canonically would be more lost than someone just jumping in at the most popular title. It's kind of hilarious how major a revelation that is to be just casually dropped in as a by the way this conversation happened. Like fair enough if you want to have your plot retconning something from the previous game shouldn't be off limits, but it's a pretty massive plot point here that I can't help but feel they could have actually implemented in Metal Gear Solid more naturally. They really need to get around to remaking the first two games with Big Bosses recontexualized character, instead of just making more Big Boss games that clog up the timeline in increasingly nonsensical ways. Well that's my Metal Gear 2 Cents. Also the Game Boy Colour game is great.

Yeah.

And then you have the mess of tech, while MGS3 and Portable ops at least tried to keep their tech relatively "Low tech" compared to later games, PW and MGSV flat-out went pretty much Sci-fi despite still being in the 80's roughly. (Like Wormhole generators or how the Metal Gears are way more advanced than anything in the chronologically later games because every thing has to be bigger and cool despite that massively screwing up the timeline.)

Haven't actually played the GBC game myself but I plan to.

 

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

If I can buy into why Itachi did what he did in order to protect his brother(as in psychology torture him by forcing him to watch the slaughtering of his clan for 72 hours on repeat in a psychedelic illusion), then what Yen’fey did here is quite tame in comparison. Seriously if I can understand and sympathize with Itachi, then I can understand and sympathize with anyone. The dude literally threatened to pull his brother’s eyes out and put him in an illusion where he did exactly that. An illusion that was near indistinguishable from reality.

It's less about how Yen'Fay is feeling and more about what he's doing. Which is the opposite of what he apparently wants. Yen'Fay could slice off Say'ri's arms and tie her to Grima's ass for what it's worth if he had some semblance of a reason for doing so. But fighting her in the volcano isn't something he has a reason to do given that Chrom and he have the superior military force to Whalhart and even his own soldiers apparently want to fight against Whalhart. He just doesn't do the thing he's motivated and encourage to do because he's inexplicably intimidated by a fat trans steretype who himself admits (though unintentionally) that the threats became empty the moment Chrom showed up.

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's less about how Yen'Fay is feeling and more about what he's doing. Which is the opposite of what he apparently wants. Yen'Fay could slice off Say'ri's arms and tie her to Grima's ass for what it's worth if he had some semblance of a reason for doing so. But fighting her in the volcano isn't something he has a reason to do given that Chrom and he have the superior military force to Whalhart and even his own soldiers apparently want to fight against Whalhart. He just doesn't do the thing he's motivated and encourage to do because he's inexplicably intimidated by a fat trans steretype who himself admits (though unintentionally) that the threats became empty the moment Chrom showed up.

You ever think that maybe that was the point. Say’ri even somewhat calls him out on that in that maybe if he had told her the truth things probably wouldn’t have ended up this way. If he had done what he was encouraged to do then he would have lived but he didn’t therefore he dies. Again, this is just how character flaws work.

[Alastor15243]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

He was the also the lead writer behind the FE 1 and 3 remakes.

I have trouble believing anyone who wrote this game even played the remakes, let alone helped make them. I just don't understand what they were thinking with all these crazy retcons knowing that now.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Ottservia]

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

I have trouble believing anyone who wrote this game even played the remakes, let alone helped make them. I just don't understand what they were thinking with all these crazy retcons knowing that now.

Hey if you don’t believe me look at the credits. His name is right there under director and scenario writer. He was also the director and lead scenario writer of awakening meaning most decisions regarding the story and it’s writing must get his approval so yeah. 

[Samz707]

54 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Hey if you don’t believe me look at the credits. His name is right there under director and scenario writer. He was also the director and lead scenario writer of awakening meaning most decisions regarding the story and it’s writing must get his approval so yeah. 

Then that kinda makes the rampant disregard even worse since he should have definitely known better.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Samz707

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

He was the also the lead writer behind the FE 1 and 3 remakes. New mystery is actually where he made his directorial debut and by most accounts shadow dragon’s story is considered good. So obviously he does care about the world and such of those games otherwise those remakes wouldn’t be as faithful as they had been. Kris aside anyway. 

 

Especially when compared to Blazing Blade, Shadow Dragon's story had some clear weaknesses due to how little they cared. Its in the little things like having Marth's face barely emote during story scenes, or their use of CGs (both of which were used effectively in Blazing Blade, and they could have done so in this game as well if they cared...). As for New Mystery, I find it particularly telling that this was the first game with Maeda directing, as Kaga has made some explicit statements about the importance to permadeath to his vision of these game, and Maeda starts undermining that design decision with casual mode in a remake of one of Kaga's games (and that is before even mentioning Kris).

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

If I can buy into why Itachi did what he did in order to protect his brother(as in psychology torture by forcing him to watch the slaughtering of his clan for 72 hours in a psychedelic illusion) then what Yen’fey did here is quite tame in comparison.

Yan'fey isn't Itachi, nor is Awakening Naruto. The actions, and circumstances around Itachi's situation are not the same as Yan'fey's either. From what you have said so far, they only barely resemble each-other...

 

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, it makes me wonder. Is it a case of changing over the years, after facts like the decline of sales and notoriety also influenced the actions made down the road, or the fact Blazing Sword was going to be the series' first venture on the international market meant there had to be at least lip service done in order to make the product presentable.

Or both...

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Especially when compared to Blazing Blade, Shadow Dragon's story had some clear weaknesses due to how little they cared. Its in the little things like having Marth's face barely emote during story scenes, or their use of CGs (both of which were used effectively in Blazing Blade, and they could have done so in this game as well if they cared...). As for New Mystery, I find it particularly telling that this was the first game with Maeda directing, as Kaga has made some explicit statements about the importance to permadeath to his vision of these game, and Maeda starts undermining that design decision with casual mode in a remake of one of Kaga's games (and that is before even mentioning Kris).

I mean he could’ve been on the side opposed to casual mode. You never know with big industry projects like this. We do have knowledge that casual mode was a highly debated topic even among the development staff. Also he was the scenario writer. He was not in charge of anything regarding graphics, sound design, character design, etc. he just wrote the script really.

 

7 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Yan'fey isn't Itachi, nor is Awakening Naruto. The actions, and circumstances around Itachi's situation are not the same as Yan'fey's either. From what you have said so far, they only barely resemble each-other...

 

No, but they are similar enough where a comparison can be drawn. Both Yen’fey and Itachi both side against their sibling in a deal meant to guarantee their safety. In doing this, the both plan to die at their hands branding their sibling a hero and so they can die with the knowledge that they’re safe. The similarities end when you get into how these actions affect Sasuke and Say’ri who are so drastically different in how they’re written a comparison can’t even be made. 

[Icelerate]

On 1/1/2021 at 4:05 PM, Alastor15243 said:

So yeah, the game's basically saying that Excellus was coasting on Yen'fay's reputation this entire time with his threats and blackmail, meaning that yes, the answer was that Yen'fay was stupid, and that if it weren't for Yen'fay being so stupid to believe Excellus was dangerous... he never would have been dangerous.

 

But if Yen'fay is this stupid, why does he have such a strong reputation? 

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Icelerate said:

But if Yen'fay is this stupid, why does he have such a strong reputation? 

Question for the ages.

 

Also, any thoughts on the DLC? Would anyone be broken up if I didn't do the rest of it?

[Venger_06]

6 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Kojima wrote every Metal Gear game and those ended up a mess of retcoms and plot holes. 

As he gained more freedom from the studio, his shortcomings began to appear. Kojima at least had help from Fukushima in the first three. He always kept Kojima in check, which Murata was unable to do.

21 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

But if Yen'fay is this stupid, why does he have such a strong reputation? 

Martial prowess, I guess?

20 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also, any thoughts on the DLC? Would anyone be broken up if I didn't do the rest of it?

Most DLCs are just fanservice, but it is important to play at least Future's Past, as it helps to contextualize the second generation, which unfortunately could not be explored much in the main campaign.

[Eltosian Kadath]

18 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean he could’ve been on the side opposed to casual mode. You never know with big industry projects like this.

It sounds like his involvement in the FE 1, and FE 3 remake isn't an ironclad defense if we can never know...

 

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Also he was the scenario writer. He was not in charge of anything regarding graphics, sound design, character design, etc. he just wrote the script really.

And games are a collaborative medium, and its in how poorly they collaborated that they showed this lack of care. When the writing says one thing, while the CGs show something contradictory, or the writing evokes emotions that are not backed up by the images or sounds (especially when they showed they capable of doing so, like they did in the Blazing Blade...) that is a failure on the team as a whole. The idea of stage direction in writing, or story boarding are some basic ways that a scenario writer can involve themselves in these collaborative processes of combining these elements together. This isn't on Maeda alone, but nor is he devoid of blame for the lack of care shown by how the story segments were put together.

 

53 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Both Yen’fey and Itachi both side against their sibling in a deal meant to guarantee their safety. In doing this, the both plan to die at their hands branding their sibling a hero and so they can die with the knowledge that they’re safe. The similarities end when you get into how these actions affect Sasuke and Say’ri who are so drastically different in how they’re written a comparison can’t even be made. 

The comparison falls apart the minute you look at it for longer than a few seconds. That first statement is carefully written to make two very different events looks similar (Is the one Itachi making a deal with constantly threatening to kill Sasuke if Itachi doesn't continue to follow his orders? Is the threat to Sasuke's life still present after Itachi's death? ), and the second is arguably false, as it is unlikely that Say'ri will face Yen'fey on the battle field, and even if they do, its either Robin or Chrom that gets the branded a hero for orchestrating the kill. What do you think about this plot point as something that is separate from this passing similarity to Itachi and Sasuke?

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also, any thoughts on the DLC? Would anyone be broken up if I didn't do the rest of it?

You need not do it, Grandmaster = Grindmaster, Scramble = Words, Einherjar = filler. Maybe FP because of the kinda relevant plot, but getting the good ending there means all kids alive, and I’m not sure if you’d be able to do that.

Spotpass Paralogues... You might be able to one-turn Emm’s. Aversa’s can be cheesed. Gangrel’s might be doable, but if Chrom is vulnerable to being ORKO’ed by Gang, then skip it or you’d need to pop Rescue after each of the first two chats. Walhart’s requires Chrom survive a round with him. Yen’fay’s should be bearable, Priam’s might not. But, let’s recognize most of these will likely be a little more criticism of Awakening’s writing. 

[Lightcosmo]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Question for the ages.

 

Also, any thoughts on the DLC? Would anyone be broken up if I didn't do the rest of it?

Perhaps as a side thing? Maybe after the game is complete or when you complete the rest of the series?

[Icelerate]

@Alastor15243 Do you think this criticism of Lyn is really nitpicky? 

[Alastor15243]

7 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

@Alastor15243 Do you think this criticism of Lyn is really nitpicky? 

Well I think it's fair in the sense that that would have been a valuable thing to discuss in supports. And it probably isn't the sort of thing you should do, give a land a legendary heroine and then have them unwilling to follow women, without exploring that aspect of the culture more.

Honestly I just find it weird that just because they wouldn't follow Lyn, they all scattered rather than uniting under someone else, and when they scattered to join other tribes, Lyn never did the same. Was she really living all alone and keeping her father's tribe alive as a tribe of one... just for the sake of her dad's legacy? If you think about it her loneliness is kind of self-inflicted in a sense in that light, and it's a shame that isn't discussed in supports as far as I know. Would've been interesting.

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The comparison falls apart the minute you look at it for longer than a few seconds. That first statement is carefully written to make two very different events looks similar (Is the one Itachi making a deal with constantly threatening to kill Sasuke if Itachi doesn't continue to follow his orders? Is the threat to Sasuke's life still present after Itachi's death? ), and the second is arguably false, as it is unlikely that Say'ri will face Yen'fey on the battle field, and even if they do, its either Robin or Chrom that gets the branded a hero for orchestrating the kill. What do you think about this plot point as something that is separate from this passing similarity to Itachi and Sasuke?

Look this isn’t the thread to get into the Naruto lore and explain Itachi’s character. Like obviously the two scenarios aren’t exactly 1:1 the same. That’s true of any comparison regarding storytelling. Unless it’s deliberate, no two stories are going to be exactly the same. The point I’m making with this comparison is that the two scenarios are similar enough to the point where if I can buy into one then I can buy into the other. The nuances of each scenario obviously make them different. The uchiha massacre was the result of generations of civil unrest between the uchiha and the leaf that eventually boiled over. He had the choice to die with the rest of his clan or kill them himself which guaranteed both his life and his brother’s. Itachi’s deal was that he would act as the scapegoat for the village on the condition that Sasuke be protected within the village. 
 

Yen’fey’s situation is far less nuanced by comparison. He just wants to protect his sister from an overwhelming threat. He knows for a fact she can’t take on alone nor would her life be guaranteed if he fought with her from the start(which thanks to his paralogue we know she would’ve died in that scenario). This way he can at least temporarily guarantee her safety until she’s strong enough to be able to handle the threat on her own or has allies who can help her. Regardless of the differences the base plan is more or less the same. They both made a deal to betray their family/country in order to protect their younger sibling. If I can sympathize and understand why Itachi did what he did then Yen’fey is well within the realm of believability.

[Shadow Mir]

On 1/1/2021 at 10:41 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Steal does exist, and mastering Thief lets anyone use it any time, though I never really tried to see what it could get me. The one thing I do remember is the bridge battle in the second half had a Master Seal you had to steal from an enemy, I think.

One of the bosses in that chapter also has an Aurora Shield (on any route other than Crimson Flower), as well as the Weathervane (aka Acheron) having an Evasion Ring.

On 1/1/2021 at 10:41 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I forgot about the Beaststones, though I did remember that the Taguel class is bad.

You’re right on bows having a niche, but it is as you say only to semi-counter Counter and player-phase some stuff at the supremely high end of Awakening.

I meant on a more... less optimized level. Tomes hit Res with good Mt & 1-2 range (and Nosferatu for durability) so they’re the best. Axes and Lances have Handelins being infinitely buyable and they can kill things readily enough on a snowball unit as weak as they are. Dragonstones are 1-2 if hindered by being locked to a slow class. Swords need Armsthrift + Ragnell/Amatsu for 1-2, but being range 1 locked is far better than being range 2 locked in most circumstances.

No surprise, the drastic phase imbalance casually defines Awakening’s weapon balance (prior to getting a full team of Galeforce gals and sons of fallen angels). Not like it hasn’t happened before, although RD was cruel to tomes.

Tomes are almost as bad in Fates, though most of that can be due to the fact that most of the mages you get just suck.

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You ever think that maybe that was the point. Say’ri even somewhat calls him out on that in that maybe if he had told her the truth things probably wouldn’t have ended up this way. If he had done what he was encouraged to do then he would have lived but he didn’t therefore he dies. Again, this is just how character flaws work.

No, because I think the point is that he's well intentioned but misguided, what we got was he was well intentioned, but a complete moron. It's not that he does something bad or refuses to talk, it's that he continues to do so long after he has any conceivable reason to do so, right up until his death.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Jotari