Saint Rubenio Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 19 minutes ago, ping said: I think I brought it up in a previous discussion, but I think Brenda Romero's Trains fits into that list very well, too. I seem to faintly recall talking about this, yes. Either way, the twist still hit me like a truck. Or should I say, a train. I do love how (if I'm understanding the article correctly) the game basically wants you to ditch the rules and lead the little yellow pieces in an epic escape that is not covered by any mechanics of the game. After all, why not? The only thing compelling you to finish "properly" is a little booklet that came in the box. There's an interesting little thought process there. 12 minutes ago, ping said: And while it goes into a very different direction, You Have to Burn the Rope is a nice example of a purposefully un-fun game, too. Just played through it and... Yeah that's great. Only 9/10 though, because I was really hoping that the ending theme (banger by the way) would just loop forever, infinitely blue-balling me out of a satisfying sense of finality. Wore a big shit-eating grin on my face the entire song though. Glad the whole debate led me to discover this lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 hours ago, GuardianSing said: I recall an interesting video by game reviewer Yahtzee making the claim that a game can be engaging without being necessarily being "fun" and any game in how in portrays its context alongside the gameplay can be very engaging and interesting even if it isn't fun. That isn't to say games should be purposefully made bad or excuse games for frustrating experiences but it's like, if the game is supposed to be a gritty realistic anti-war world war 1 simulator and the gameplay thus is incredibly boring and extremely stressful, that is still in service to engaging the player in what the creators wanted them to engage in. Art doesn't really have a strict definition to it and I don't think it should beyond "Art is what people experience in it" but generally if you apply the same gameplay = fun puritan attitude to things like movies and books you run into some implications, that If you think that those art forms should always be fun and happy all the time or that a film could never be engaging without also being a fun happy time than you'll have to deal with the vast majority of that media containing some kind of downer scene that isn't fun to watch nor is it supposed to be. And you might say, "Well it's a game, so it's different." To which I respond, how? How is gameplay being purposefully made uncomfortable to convey a certain type of theming any different from a scene in a movie or book having a purposefully uncomfortable scene to convey a certain type of theming? You might say it's because of the direct player control but why shouldn't that be changed to be fit with the intended engagement even if some players may find it "not fun" I'll stress again that this isn't him saying that games shouldn't ever be fun or that something being bad because of dev oversight is good actually, but that a game can be engaging without being "fun" in the traditional sense. 2 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said: I disagree. Dark Souls is a regular action game with an above average difficulty curve. That's it. It is not comparable to, for the few examples I brought up before and a few more for good measure: - I Wanna Be The Guy, a meanspirited game intended to incite rage in its players by mean of completely unfair traps. - Papers Please, a "boring" game that puts you through a repetitive, increasingly more cumbersome day job to sell the hopeless, oppressive atmosphere of its totalitarian regime setting. - Disco Elyisum, a game with no "combat" in its classic inception, where you play a complete failure of a man whose "boss fight" is an uncomfortable chair and a dialogue tree. - Who's Lila, a mindfuck where you walk around trying to decipher like 10 layers of mystery that constantly dips in and out of meta. - Fear & Hunger, a niche RPG that thrives in being absolute bullshit because it suits the vibe it wants to go for. Though I hesitate to bring that one up as I've not played it myself. Really gotta sooner than later. What I'm trying to say is, they may not be as common (because we live in capitalism and niche stuff doesn't sell), but weirder games that aren't "fun" do exist. They're out there, if you look for them. Dark Souls is not one of them. 48 minutes ago, ping said: Of course, if you insist that games must be recreational, Druckmann's statement is still "wrong" in the unabridged form, but I fundamentally disagree with that premise. Games, video or otherwise, can be and have been used as self-expression, to communicate ideas or whatever else other forms of media can be used for. Why shouldn't they? I will say though that these are the "rules" of "the game". In theory, if you follow the rules of the game, it becomes "fun" for both player and audience. At the same time, you don't always find those rules to be "fun" either because you think the rules suck or you just hate the rules and don't want to play the game anymore. It's like sports, someone can like the rules of baseball but not like the rules of soccer. When you're playing unconventional games like Papers Please and you follow the rules of Papers Please, you could end up enjoying those rules. By enjoying the rules, you enjoy the game. So it's still "fun" in the end. Presumably. If you like it. 2 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said: What makes Killers of the Flower Moon so special? I haven't watched it nor heard of it. Remember, I'm not a movie guy, you're going to have to explain the significance to me. Martin Scorsese. So the movie is about the murder of Osage Tribe members after oil is discovered on their lands. They had the rights to it but the white man didn't like that non-white people had wealth so a series of murders were orchestrated. Yes this is a true event. For obvious reasons, I don't think that's movie you watch and say "yeah that was fun". Which brings me to my next point, books and movies don't really have "rules". They just are. So you have to engage with them differently than you would a video game. It's all still art, it's just a different type of art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 For the record, this is also why there's no such thing as "objectively (in)correct" art. Fastest way to lose an argument is "____ is objectively good/bad". The only objectivity is what's there, not what you thought of it. It's why saying "uh yeah, that thing you thought sucked ass was supposed to suck ass and that's why it's good actually" doesn't work, because it's an attempt to absolve the thing from criticism by making it "objectively good". Likewise, "you can like it, you just have to admit it's objectively bad" isn't how it works either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Rubenio Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 hours ago, Armagon said: I will say though that these are the "rules" of "the game". In theory, if you follow the rules of the game, it becomes "fun" for both player and audience. At the same time, you don't always find those rules to be "fun" either because you think the rules suck or you just hate the rules and don't want to play the game anymore. It's like sports, someone can like the rules of baseball but not like the rules of soccer. When you're playing unconventional games like Papers Please and you follow the rules of Papers Please, you could end up enjoying those rules. By enjoying the rules, you enjoy the game. So it's still "fun" in the end. Presumably. If you like it. Well, that concept of "rules" is rather broad, but I think I see where you're coming from. I think? I mean, there's an argument to be made for people who enjoy breaking games and finding unintended exploits and bugs, not to mention speedrunners who already spend half the time doing that anyway. Bending this already vague definition of "rules" even further there. 2 hours ago, Armagon said: Martin Scorsese. So the movie is about the murder of Osage Tribe members after oil is discovered on their lands. They had the rights to it but the white man didn't like that non-white people had wealth so a series of murders were orchestrated. Yes this is a true event. For obvious reasons, I don't think that's movie you watch and say "yeah that was fun". This, one the other hand... The thing that makes this movie so special and unattainable by videogames is... that it covers a difficult subject matter? It's still a movie with a plot, a script, actors, scenes and camera angles. You watch these factors come together to engage with the story being shown. It follows "rules" as well, in this way - and yes, it can be "fun" to watch Leonardo DiCaprio do good acting or behold well-executed camera shots or listen to well-written dialogue. The only thing that sets this movie apart from any other movie (aside from, I'm assuming, being really good) is that it just has a hard subject matter. And a hard subject matter is not something videogames are somehow incapable of handling. In fact, you can definitely tackle harrowing themes like that with great effectiveness by taking advantage of videogames' interactivity and throwing the player right in there, so to speak. I really don't think anyone's supposed to come out of Omori, or Fear & Hunger, or any other game like that thinking "yeah that was fun." Kinda feels like a bad example to me, ngl. A true example of a rulebreaking, "not made to be fun" movie would be Warhol's Empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 4 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said: - I Wanna Be The Guy, a meanspirited game intended to incite rage in its players by mean of completely unfair traps. Huh, I suppose that might explain FE12 and Awakening. ...although, that's not quite a fair comparison. From the gravity defying apples, to Dracula's wine glass. the game is very creative in killing you. Even when it looks like you suffer a standard bottomless pit death, a jet will suddenly fly by to turn you into mush before the ground gets a chance. It's never just "Here is the 20th cheap spawn kill. Exactly the same as the 19 previous ones. Have fun restarting." Not to mention I Wanna Be The Guy is also a really cute loveletter to beloved retro game franchises. You can feel the affection for it's inspirations, and that's just really charming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I guess I played Omori wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Rubenio Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 minute ago, BrightBow said: Huh, I suppose that might explain FE12 and Awakening. Hah! Oh you. 1 minute ago, BrightBow said: ...although, that's not quite a fair comparison. From the gravity defying apples, to Dracula's wine glass. the game is very creative in killing you. Even when it looks like you suffer a standard bottomless pit death, a jet will suddenly fly by to turn you into mush before the ground gets a chance. It's never just "Here is the 20th cheap spawn kill. Exactly the same as the 19 previous ones. Have fun restarting." Not to mention I Wanna Be The Guy is also a really cute loveletter to beloved retro game franchises. You can feel the affection for it's inspirations, and that's just really charming. That's a fair point. I'd still argue the game is not "fun" in the same sense that like, Dark Souls is where you're learning game mechanics and facing progressively tougher challenges to prove your increasing skills. It's base trial and error, it's just creative and charming enough about the bullshit that there's enjoyment to be had from going through it and seeing just how much more of a funny dick the game can be - again, different type of "fun." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 @Saint Rubenio I just remembered another thing: I wouldn't quite use this as an example for a fun-free game, since 33.3% of the players do have it, but it's definitely an example of a deliberately frustrating (for 66.7% of the players) game. If you ever have an hour to spare, I found it a, well, fun watch. If you have another 3 hours and 20 minutes to spare, there's two sequels to this, with more than two victims players. I only just now saw the third, so I'll have to make 1h40m worth of time one of these days... -- Speedy old lady. I think I know where this happened - during Wynne's personal quest line, there's one where she gains (and automatically uses) an ability that stuns her after the end of the positive effect; that status has a hidden -1000 modifier to Dex; and I think leveling up while the debuff is happening can "lock in" this +1000 boost. No idea about the details, but I found a handful of similar reports on google. And yes, that boost seems to be permanent. I've since exited and restarted the game, went to the party camp (where everybody is booted from the active party), and Wynne gained another level-up in the meantime. She's just really speedy now. And if I go through with my plan for this playthough, this is going to be rather OP. I wanted to go with three Rogues, all with the Ranger kit once Leliana and Zevran can pick a second one, which results in three summoned beasties that I wanted to complement with four Archers - the three Rogues, and Wynne with the Arcane Warrior kit. But since Dex increases accuracy and damage for bows, that would add insane damage with perfect accuracy to her impenetrable defense. Guess I might use Morrigan instead? But she can't do Arcane Warrior + Spirit Healer because she wasted her first kit on Shapeshifter (Unrelated) Good lord, Lloyd is an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Rubenio Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Anyway, 13 minutes ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said: inb4 a Japanese woman gives news. Nintendo become woke. 3 minutes ago, ping said: I wouldn't quite use this as an example for a fun-free game, since 33.3% of the players do have it, but it's definitely an example of a deliberately frustrating (for 66.7% of the players) game. If you ever have an hour to spare, I found it a, well, fun watch. If you have another 3 hours and 20 minutes to spare, there's two sequels to this, with more than two victims players. I only just now saw the third, so I'll have to make 1h40m worth of time one of these days... Just from the title and your description I can just imagine what this might be. 4 minutes ago, ping said: Speedy old lady. Look at her. She's so fast she might actually be able to stop me from salting the ashes to keep rebellions from sprouting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 3 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said: Just from the title and your description I can just imagine what this might be. I think the following two rules represent the entirety of the ruleset pretty well: Every player starts with 1000 rubels. If at any point in time, you have more than 1000 rubels, you go to jail for questioning where you got that money from, you bourgeois pig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 10 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said: inb4 a Japanese woman gives news. Nintendo become woke inb4 "WoKEtEmDpo!!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said: That's a fair point. I'd still argue the game is not "fun" in the same sense that like, Dark Souls is where you're learning game mechanics and facing progressively tougher challenges to prove your increasing skills. It's base trial and error, it's just creative and charming enough about the bullshit that there's enjoyment to be had from going through it and seeing just how much more of a funny dick the game can be - again, different type of "fun." It seems generally like a fair challenge once you figured out all the ways that a screen will kill you. I just don't vibe very well with games where a single scratch results in instant death. It's why I don't like Shmups and Run & Gun games. Give me a lifebar, please. Thank you. ...not to mention the game also really likes crashing. From my experience, at least. Edited February 2 by BrightBow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightcosmo Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 7 hours ago, Armagon said: This may have been sunk cost fallacy tbh. Like how I beat Persona 5 Royal despite knowing full well that it singlehandedly killed any interest I had in the series What does this mean? I bought Reverie knowing full well the gameplay was trash. I dont feel as though I did this out of obligation to the series, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Rubenio Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 So, as for what I couldn't wait for any longer. Yeah, it's the yearly Berwick. Conversations had elsewhere have led me to believe that max ranks may be doable. I got really close on the run before Min Ranks, and I wasn't even going for it, I was just doing that little "rotate the team every chapter" challenge that accidentally led to full recruitment and nearly complete promotion. Conversations had elsewhere have led me to believe it may just be doable. I'd just need to bench people immediately after promotion, which is counterintuitive but I'll live. Pictured is the man who will be a problem. He's gotten 2 spear points on map 1. Attaboy. Now please get more. Lots more. I don't have a plan for his shield level. Hope. 50 minutes ago, ping said: I think the following two rules represent the entirety of the ruleset pretty well: Every player starts with 1000 rubels. If at any point in time, you have more than 1000 rubels, you go to jail for questioning where you got that money from, you bourgeois pig. Ahh, reminds me of Papers Please once again. You can get a bad ending by accepting a generous gift. The neighbors report you and the police fucks you up. Envious bastards... 46 minutes ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said: inb4 "WoKEtEmDpo!!!!" #BringBackJapaneseMen 25 minutes ago, BrightBow said: It seems generally like a fair challenge once you figured out all the ways that a screen will kill you. I just don't vibe very well with games where a single scratch results in instant death. It's why I don't like Shmups and Run & Gun games. Give me a lifebar, please. Thank you. ...not to mention the game also really likes crashing. From my experience, at least. Well, it is what it is. At the end of the game, it's a rage bait game. Clever, cute rage bait, but rage bait still. They were never going to give you a life bar lol As for Shmups and Run & Guns... Well, in the arcade days they were intended to bleed kids dry of their quarters. But any modern game like that that maintains the 1-hit-kill thing is just being too nostalgic for its own good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Sub-Episode 45 Spoiler Some Daltanious kid I haven’t seen in like eons shows up, and alongside Arle, announces that Daltanious has been upgraded with Edon’s help. Enemies attack. Kento wants to test the weapons in the field, Arle warns against it because Kento will die if the Hyperspace energy fails. The fight is merely leaderless NPA grunts around Edon’s capital. Easily dealt with, Daltanious’s new weapons show no signs of malfunction. The Cannon Cubic is a pair of ammo-based wrist four-barrel machine guns with a base of 3200 firepower and post-movement range, the Blazing Cross Slash Attack is a range-1 4500 base power attack, very late and still rather weak for a Super. Oh, and the New Bax Sword’s animation isn’t very new, but it does have its own music. That’s nice. Episode 46 Spoiler Things begin with enemy perspectives. Ondoron’s Space Fortress, the titular man receives orders from Zakron to team up with the Zarl Empire again and launch an attack. Although Zakron criticizes Ondoron, he thinks he has been doing a good job fighting the Extradimensional Union. He also receives from Zakron, a nonchalant lady named Jilva. At the Zarl Mobile Fortress, the shadow’ed Emperor Dormen tells Kloppen the last showdown with the Extradimensional Union is at hand. They must conquer the Edon Kingdom to increase their firepower before the final battle vs. the EU. Kloppen says he is using the Nubia Connection to weaken Edon, and he shall deploy all generals to seize Edon at once. Dormen places his faith in Kloppen, who then assigns the task to General Voider. Over the planet of Gowahand, the Interstellar Alliance has crossed the border, Igo is astonished to hear the patrol forces gave way without fighting, the New Planets Alliance gave unbelievable orders to not interfere. Nubia and the Bloody Syndicate clearly exerted strong dark influence to do this. Igo defies orders and sends out orders to have everyone follow him into battle. At Edon, the White Base Corps hear about the massive attack, the Gowahand fleet is intercepting. The Interstellar Alliance has been waiting, they realize, for Edon to be weakened before it struck. Off to Gowahand’s aid! On the battlefield, three NPA battleships are sunk by Jilva and Voider, Igo’s gets surrounded and dropped to half-HP, desperate he be to buy time. The White Base Corps gets there not a moment later. Prince Mito speaks with Igo who confirms he is alive, Igo asks the Prince to rescue the wounded in the little Gowahand space stronghold. Igo then says he’ll buy time for Mito by carrying out a suicide attack, the Prince, the Gale, and other J9 Trilogy characters beg him to live for the future of Edon. They’ll destroy all the invaders here no problem! Igo, is moved by his only-in-SRW liege (he is canonically a space samurai in Baxingar it seems, fitting for being paired with Daiohja), and being a calm man, he backs down from self-sacrifice. He retreats to tell everyone in the NPA their Prince is absolutely resolved to win this, NPA morale and available manpower will rise! It’s a handful of Zarl Bemborgs and one type of Robot Empire grunt here. Alongside Voider’s 31k HP battleship, and the new Robot Empire lady, with 80k HP (at the battle’s start, really?😑). As I clear out the Zarl & Robot Empire forces, which include one additional wave of Tryder grunts, reinforcements to the southwest. The Posaydal Regular Army? What is the isolationist party in the Interstellar Alliance doing here? Daba shows concern about what has become of the Rebel Army if Posaydal could send troops here. I didn’t deploy Daba, so I didn’t see if he had a convo with Olibee (she doesn’t announce herself to the heroes), but after her defeat, he senses something strange about her mech. I left Nu and Sazabi to almost solo the Heavy Metals as everyone else whittled away at Voider and Jilva. And Ryoklay’s defeat message suggested this was nothing but a mandatory deployment, to fulfill Pentagona’s Alliance obligations. More reinforcements to the northeast. Amuro and Quattro have unpleasant Newtype reactions to whatever it is. Khamen… Khamen… Khamen Khamen’s chill, cliched-“Egyptian” personal theme has musical override. Did Khamen hack the Character Database? He wins? Like, the heroes lose? Is there something I’m not being told here?😕 Did he puppet the Jupiter Empire into crashing Little Bharm into the big gas planet causing the possessed GaoGaiGar to emerge? The J9 want to know why Nubia has finally taken direct action, yet they also eagerly see it as an opportunity to kill Khamen. Also, Bloody God the crime syndicate boss of Sasuraigar is aboard Khamen’s battleship. He says he won the Big Game to Blues, the Interstellar Alliance victory over Edon is certain, and he, Bloody, shall now run Edon’s economy. Blues counters that it’s still ongoing, and the battle continues. At some point, another group of Bemborgs show up to the northwest. But to the southeast… Leccee shows up in her new Nouvelle D-sserd and old man Semuj from the one battle before in the Rebel Army battleship (I don’t get to keep him nor the ship), alongside four NPC D-sserds. The Rebels are still plenty alive, having left Pentagona to come to the White Base Corps’s aid. (Also, Gowahand looks pretty with that magenta atmosphere.) After defeating Khamen’s flagship, the J9 invade it on foot, Kid shots Khamen dead, only to realize it’s a body double. Thanks to that, Bloody manages to escape into an NPA ship and flee -but Igo shows up and reveals that Bloody had been manipulating the NPA, catching Bloody by surprise. Sasuraiger’s disables the engines on Bloody’s ship, he feels humiliated enough, orders his syndicate lackey not to attack, and Bloody surrenders. Igo takes Bloody away, but not before saying to Blues he’ll watch their the end to their Big Game from prison, it shall go on as long as this war continues. Wait a sec, what happened here?🧐 Igo also says he’ll head over to nearby space sectors also under Interstellar Alliance attack and handle them. When everything is defeated, it turns out the Interstellar Alliance is withdrawing from its attacks on Edon elsewhere in space. Igo is partly to be thanked for this, and he ought to buy the White Base Corps time to take the offensive elsewhere. Mito reaffirms his commitment to continue fighting in the White Base Corps, now for the sake of Pentagona. Aboard the White Base, Nubia has emerged from the manipulative shadows. The New Planets Alliance has at least agreed to set aside intra-Edon politics to fight the Interstellar Alliance as a united star system. Bloody God is jailed. Though in serious danger when this battle began, Edon’s independence is actually strengthened now. Semuj and Leccee say the Rebel Army is a lot stronger than before. With Edon at internal peace again, the Interstellar Alliance in intense war with the Extradimensional Union, and the White Base Corps reunited with the Rebel Army, everyone knows where they’re heading next. Pentagona, we have returned! The Zarl Empire’s Kloppen criticizes Voider for his defeat, he had enough manpower to take Edon despite most of the Interstellar Alliance’s resources being tied up against the Extradimensional Union. Kabuto comes to Voider’s defense, they concur the White Base Corps is small, yet even stronger than it was back on Earth, they can slip in undetected and catch them off guard. Voider and Kabuto are assigned to the mobile fortress for now, Emperor Dormen will decide on how to fight the WBC. --- I guess this “concludes” Galactic Whirlwind [or Gust] Sasuraigar? Not like it really had anything in SRW GC in the first place. I can’t say I have a real understanding of what it is. It had zero enemies repping it, and only the thinnest most unnecessary story presence. Sasuraiger has weapons, so it’s obviously had bad guys (the Big Game was invented by a mafia boss whose entry says he throw obstacles in the J9-III's way), so why weren’t any of them around? Was Sasuraigar here solely to have the full J9/Galactic Trilogy in an SRW? Was it the victim of GC already being packed with perhaps too many IPs? Was there anything about Sasuraigar that made it less amenable to SRW adaptation? The original Big Game (turned into a bet on Edon’s continued prosperity in GC) was "visit 50 planets in a year", which makes me think of what one onetime poster in this topic said about… Escaflowne, Acrobunch? One of those two being a mecha anime, but an adventure mecha anime, with the implication I think that it wasn’t fighting-focused. Is Sasuraigar the same way, a wild adventure, which by virtue of being created in 1980s Japan, ended up having a giant robot because it was caught up in the two-decade mecha-craze? And perhaps the result of the creators of the J9 Series wanting to do something different after Braiger (the most traditional I assume) and the somewhat-adventurous Baxinger? I don’t know. I think I’d have to watch the Sasuraiger anime to find out -which I am not inclined to do. Or, maybe SRW could one day bring Sasuraiger back, its solitary appearance feels… mysteriously unsatisfying. Even DD would be fine, since there, there ought to be 50 licensed and Banpresto Original planets to play the authentic Big Game. --- I suppose this ends Galactic Gale Baxingar as well. Similar issues to Sasuraigar, I’m not sure if I have true understanding of Baxingar. It’s better than what I feel for Sasuraigar though. And some of Baxinger's characters and places felt decently-integrated into Edon. My hunch, reading the Character & Robot Database entries, is that there was indeed some kind of foreign invasion of the New Planets Alliance (by Anglais?) in Baxingar and that is indeed what happened here. *Checks Wikipedia* ...The entry there on the J9 Series provides some useful clarification!😃 It actually is all in the Solar System, after what must've been one weird Braiger ending. The New Planets Alliance mentioned as numbering 50 planets comes from Sasuraiger it sounds like. And Wikipedia states that Baxinger had a "Bakufu" ruling a "mostly peaceful, but lawless" Solar System as well. Bakufu, Edon/Tokuga, I can see how Banpresto bent Baxinger for Daiohja. Sounds like a natural fit then. Yet, if it is all within a simply-expanded Solar System, why haven't Baxinga and and Sasuraiga returned? The Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud are technically considered part of the Solar System. Cram some extra planets in them, sci-fi your way around a lack of solar radiation/light/warmth. -Wikipedia also tells me a spiritual-but-unconnected fourth J9 entry was planned four decades later- Jinraigar, but was canceled in 2019 after the head screenwriter for the entire J9 Series died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said: Khamen Khamen’s chill, cliched-“Egyptian” personal theme has musical override. I wonder if he actually has the music playing somewhere, like GoShogun's Bundle. XD 1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said: Did Khamen hack the Character Database? He wins? Like, the heroes lose? Is there something I’m not being told here?😕 Did he puppet the Jupiter Empire into crashing Little Bharm into the big gas planet causing the possessed GaoGaiGar to emerge? Hold it, this is news to me too! lol Will have to look up too. 1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said: I guess this “concludes” Galactic Whirlwind [or Gust] Sasuraigar? Not like it really had anything in SRW GC in the first place. I can’t say I have a real understanding of what it is. It had zero enemies repping it, and only the thinnest most unnecessary story presence. Sasuraiger has weapons, so it’s obviously had bad guys (the Big Game was invented by a mafia boss whose entry says he throw obstacles in the J9-III's way), so why weren’t any of them around? Was Sasuraigar here solely to have the full J9/Galactic Trilogy in an SRW? Was it the victim of GC already being packed with perhaps too many IPs? Was there anything about Sasuraigar that made it less amenable to SRW adaptation? The original Big Game (turned into a bet on Edon’s continued prosperity in GC) was "visit 50 planets in a year", which makes me think of what one onetime poster in this topic said about… Escaflowne, Acrobunch? One of those two being a mecha anime, but an adventure mecha anime, with the implication I think that it wasn’t fighting-focused. Is Sasuraigar the same way, a wild adventure, which by virtue of being created in 1980s Japan, ended up having a giant robot because it was caught up in the two-decade mecha-craze? And perhaps the result of the creators of the J9 Series wanting to do something different after Braiger (the most traditional I assume) and the somewhat-adventurous Baxinger? I don’t know. I think I’d have to watch the Sasuraiger anime to find out -which I am not inclined to do. Or, maybe SRW could one day bring Sasuraiger back, its solitary appearance feels… mysteriously unsatisfying. Even DD would be fine, since there, there ought to be 50 licensed and Banpresto Original planets to play the authentic Big Game. The travel aspect of the Big Game does make it hard to adapt to SRW. Short of making a lot of the visits happen off-screen. That's why GC turned it into something that could be more viable for party participation. It was definitely Acrobunch, since that one is basically "Give Indiana Jones a mecha". lol Then again, since Compact 3 did used both Escaflowne and Acrobunch, it's not like the format couldn't be used. Makes for perfect spacing if mecha fighting was only every other episode, since that adapts nicely to SRW's chapter formula too. So adventure mecha is a good fit to use in SRW. Hmm... even if Sasuraiger were to appear again, they'd likely change the Big Game again. 1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said: I suppose this ends Galactic Gale Baxingar as well. Similar issues to Sasuraigar, I’m not sure if I have true understanding of Baxingar. It’s better than what I feel for Sasuraigar though. And some of Baxinger's characters and places felt decently-integrated into Edon. My hunch, reading the Character & Robot Database entries, is that there was indeed some kind of foreign invasion of the New Planets Alliance (by Anglais?) in Baxingar and that is indeed what happened here. It does feel they wanted to use all three J9 series in the same game. However, adapting them to coexist was indeed easier said than done. So the Big Game gets changed, and Baxinger has to plot meld with a different series, I suppose. 1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said: *Checks Wikipedia* ...The entry there on the J9 Series provides some useful clarification!😃 It actually is all in the Solar System, after what must've been one weird Braiger ending. The New Planets Alliance mentioned as numbering 50 planets comes from Sasuraiger it sounds like. And Wikipedia states that Baxinger had a "Bakufu" ruling a "mostly peaceful, but lawless" Solar System as well. Bakufu, Edon/Tokuga, I can see how Banpresto bent Baxinger for Daiohja. Sounds like a natural fit then. Interesting. Those kind of setting changes certainly are par for the course for SRW. Like how GunxSword usually takes place on Mars instead in a galaxy far far away. You should check the Japanese entries of their wiki pages. They contain even more info. Fun fact, Baxinger has a Khamen the 18th, and Sasuraiger Khamen the 25th. Also, it seems Khamen is now seen as a heroic figure by Sasuraiger's time. I guess that being far detached from the even itself, creating dozens of planets for humanity to inhabit at the expense of the single one that was before... is long considered an acceptable exchange. Good, even, I guess. 1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said: Yet, if it is all within a simply-expanded Solar System, why haven't Baxinga and and Sasuraiga returned? The Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud are technically considered part of the Solar System. Cram some extra planets in them, sci-fi your way around a lack of solar radiation/light/warmth. Hmm... maybe? Sounds easier to just do what GC did and make the 50-planet star system be different from Sol's. 1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said: -Wikipedia also tells me a spiritual-but-unconnected fourth J9 entry was planned four decades later- Jinraigar, but was canceled in 2019 after the head screenwriter for the entire J9 Series died. Oh, that's a shame. Edited February 2 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 3 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said: I mean, there's an argument to be made for people who enjoy breaking games and finding unintended exploits and bugs, not to mention speedrunners who already spend half the time doing that anyway. Bending this already vague definition of "rules" even further there. Breaking the rules is fun too, I mean nobody actually plays by Uno's official rules now do they? 3 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said: This, one the other hand... The thing that makes this movie so special and unattainable by videogames is... that it covers a difficult subject matter More like one covers a difficult subject matter and the other covers a difficult subject matter but with some sick-ass gameplay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 On that whole art/gaming discussion before, I'll simply repeat a quote I heard- "I don't know what art is, but I know what I like.". 20 hours ago, Armagon said: I think even Dragon Quest was doing it too early on before they stopped. I know this is late, but yes. Dragon Quest IV (1990) on the old NES. The first four, shorter, chapters had you experiencing the start of the journeys of characters other than the Hero, all of whom you could control. When you got to the fifth chapter -the meat of the game- the Hero became the only character you could directly command, everyone from before became AI-controlled once you recruited them. Dragon Quest V (1992), ditched mandatory AI control, as in the previous three DQ games. But it was optionally kept around. 17 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said: Heck, do it like how Rayearth did it. There's plenty of on-foot battles, but occasionally it was time to hop on the mechs... er, Rune Gods. So, also kinda how Codename S.T.E.A.M did it, with the occasional mecha stage. FE as of late has used "large enough they need 2x2 tiles to stand on" enemies. So just make them even bigger and have them be the ones the mech(s) needs to take care of. Employ a system like those of G Gundam or what a few OG mechs like Valsione, Soulgain, and Dygenguard use. Much easier for a medieval person to control the mech if it's through body movement instead of levers and buttons. *Grumble grumble* Stick to making one type of battle good, not two sucky ones. *Grumble* -Not me. But I'm sure there's people on the Web who'd say exactly that. ...I'd probably put an in-universe deployment time limit on the Magical Robots. You know, to explain why they can't be out all the time. There is only so much magic-rich blood the ancient dragon sleeping beneath Castle Goodoer can donate to channel through the DaiWarrior's hydraulic lines at any given time. And the blood don't hold the magic for that long once you starting using it. 17 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said: Like, yeah, screw fighting Grima's human avatar while atop his dragon body's back. Let's just Rocket Punch that sucker in the face! Rocket Punching the face does no real damage. It does send their head reeling backwards and expose the neck though, time for the Final Naga Blaado! 27 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: Hold it, this is news to me too! lol Will have to look up too. Oh, didn't mean to surprise you.😆 But then, I see how Alpha Gaiden wouldn't have that, or any SRW for that matter.😅 30 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: Hmm... even if Sasuraiger were to appear again, they'd likely change the Big Game again. I don't have any qualms with that. The return of the space train would be enough for me.😄 -Just let me see the solar sails GC doesn't next time.☀️ 18 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: It does feel they wanted to use all three J9 series in the same game. It gave us ...the J9 Special! (It's at the very end of this.) Not the flashiest b/c 3D graphics, but still cool. (Also, Last Shooting is not in GC, another XO-exclusive. I get why they added it, Sasuraiger had to rely on J9 Special or switch to J9-III form for Battrain Cannon for a truly ultimate attack.) 51 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: However, adapting them to coexist was indeed easier said than done. So the Big Game gets changed, and Baxinger has to plot meld with a different series, I suppose. ...The Baxinger-Edon fusion was unique though. I'll give it that. GC sure has a spectrum. Neo Getter and Mazinkaiser are played 100% pure, no blending of any kind. Zeon-Giganos leans towards Zeon/MSG favoritism most of the time, but it's a subtle, sorta-balanced merge that doesn't radically mess with either license. The Baxinger-Daiohja Cross Synchron Triangle Combination is thorough interweaving, in roughly even measure repping both, I think. I like this. -Though I lean towards more mixing in SRW than less. 32 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: You should check the Japanese entries of their wiki pages. They contain even more info. Fun fact, Baxinger has a Khamen the 18th, and Sasuraiger Khamen the 25th. Also, it seems Khamen is now seen as a heroic figure by Sasuraiger's time. I guess that being far detached from the even itself, creating dozens of planets for humanity to inhabit at the expense of the single one that was before... is long considered an acceptable exchange. Good, even, I guess. Khamen, SnakeMan, a hero. Atum, tell me what your apostle is thinking, doing, as he looks down from the heavens into this corner of the universe. It's... incomprehensible, in a way. Think of all the villains who only wish they could have such a pleasant posthumous reputation as Khamen... Khamen...🤣 Befitting?🤔 15 hours ago, GuardianSing said: I present to you a unified Pan-Arab state led by the only Albanian in the entire country. Muslim brother nonetheless. Ethnicity should be no barrier before those who truly share the faith. 1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said: So, as for what I couldn't wait for any longer. Good luck! -Not that you'll need it!😉 And it's almost never a bad thing to not be able to wait on playing a game (provided your life is properly balanced on the whole), it means you reeeeeeally intend to enjoy it. If only we could be that way with every game we get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: Dragon Quest V (1992), ditched mandatory AI control, as in the previous three DQ games. But it was optionally kept around. Though there was the caveat that monsters began AI controlled, until their Wisdom stat reached like... 20 points or so. I know it works like that in the DS/Mobile version, but not sure on the others. 21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: *Grumble grumble* Stick to making one type of battle good, not two sucky ones. *Grumble* -Not me. But I'm sure there's people on the Web who'd say exactly that. ...I'd probably put an in-universe deployment time limit on the Magical Robots. You know, to explain why they can't be out all the time. There is only so much magic-rich blood the ancient dragon sleeping beneath Castle Goodoer can donate to channel through the DaiWarrior's hydraulic lines at any given time. And the blood don't hold the magic for that long once you starting using it. Heh, for its worth, Season 2 did upped the mecha time. Mostly thanks to the other planets involved bringing their own stuff to the front. Even if only Autozam used mecha proper. Chizeeta had the giant genies, and Fahreen the painted apparitions. Shame 30 didn't had them all playable, but at least we got Giant Sang-Yung. XD 21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: Oh, didn't mean to surprise you.😆 But then, I see how Alpha Gaiden wouldn't have that, or any SRW for that matter.😅 It's naturally a thing for SRW to subvert, for sure. 21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: I don't have any qualms with that. The return of the space train would be enough for me.😄 -Just let me see the solar sails GC doesn't next time.☀️ Oh yeah, that concept is still totally amusing. XD 21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: It gave us ...the J9 Special! (It's at the very end of this.) Not the flashiest b/c 3D graphics, but still cool. (Also, Last Shooting is not in GC, another XO-exclusive. I get why they added it, Sasuraiger had to rely on J9 Special or switch to J9-III form for Battrain Cannon for a truly ultimate attack.) Yeah, it was worth it, yep. If it had to be the one time, at least it was like this. 21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: ...The Baxinger-Edon fusion was unique though. I'll give it that. GC sure has a spectrum. Neo Getter and Mazinkaiser are played 100% pure, no blending of any kind. Zeon-Giganos leans towards Zeon/MSG favoritism most of the time, but it's a subtle, sorta-balanced merge that doesn't radically mess with either license. The Baxinger-Daiohja Cross Synchron Triangle Combination is thorough interweaving, in roughly even measure repping both, I think. I like this. -Though I lean towards more mixing in SRW than less. Oh yes, it's always a treat to see how they can interweave the IP's. 21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: Khamen, SnakeMan, a hero. Atum, tell me what your apostle is thinking, doing, as he looks down from the heavens into this corner of the universe. It's... incomprehensible, in a way. Think of all the villains who only wish they could have such a pleasant posthumous reputation as Khamen... Khamen...🤣 Befitting?🤔 Yeah, it's... bizarre. Though then, it is a big time skip, and the result itself isn't negative (what is the downside to 50 Earth-like planets over just the one?), so... yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) @Interdimensional Observer I looked up some more through the Japanese wiki entries. The biggest concern about Project Atum was the possible destruction of Earth. As it turns out, it seems at the end of Braiger the J9 team do manage to avoid Earth being affected, but Project Atum succeeds anyway. I guess this also plays into why Khamen is seen in a favorable light in the distant future. Since for all intents and purposes, nothing truly bad happened. Earth was fine and avoided catastrophe (even if it wasn't exactly due to Khamen), so the new planets were just all pluses and no downsides. Also... man, Baxinger truly is a big allegory, ain't it. Your posts already showed as much, but the wiki entry really lays it out straight outright. Also, I just found the entire Braiger series is in Youtube... in Italian. Well, better than nothing I guess. At least I can understand it to a degree. XD Edited February 3 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Me going back in time and stopping academia from implementing minimum word counts in essays 3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said: "I don't know what art is, but I know what I like.". This a damn good quote actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 3 minutes ago, Armagon said: Me going back in time and stopping academia from implementing minimum word counts in essays Meanwhile I still worry about reaching thresholds for my fanfic chapters. Though right now I worry in making the chapter too wordy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Episode 47 Spoiler Semuj and Leccee guide the heroes back to the Rebel Army Base in an asteroid field. They get the low-down on the weapons factories, the mining operations, everything is going veeeery smoothly. The Rebels also captured and modified a prototype Heavy Metal, L-Gaim Mk. II.😄 They've kept it ready, waiting for Daba's return. Daba gives a speech to the Rebels, mentioning his Yaman blood, ending with "Down with Posaydal!", which his troops make their rallying cry. Emma, Chris, Shiro and Blues discuss what the Rebel Army might possibly be planning, probably a direct assault on the Pentagonan capital of Sveto. Then, Semuj is informed the Poseidal army is approaching a Rebel decoy base in the asteroid belt. Again, a decoy, but Bright (using the phrase "White Base Corps" himself) takes up the request to go and defend it. It'll be easier on the Rebel Army if it avoids capture. Kyao deploys in the L-Gaim, Daba is not quite used to it, but he deploys in the L-Gaim Mk. II. Oooooh at last, Daba's true Heavy Metal is here (with 3 free upgrades in everything of course). -The Double Buster Launcher is a combination attack with the original L-Gaim. And "Transform"? SRW30's anti-vehicular form stance meant I hadn't seen this before.😀 It retains access to the Power and Buster Launchers, but with those lovely S ranks and additional Mobility every Real wants. Daba had to wait, unlike 30, where my lingering impression is that Daba's upgrade came veeeeeery early. However, the L-Gaim Mk. II is a thing of beauty.🤩 It reminds me of Layzner Mk. II, but the loss of V-Maximum is compensated for with higher firepower than even the Sazabi and Nu. Layzner's big issue is that it's a Blue House Fly, it's hard to swat, but V-Maximum is on the weak side. J had to invent the very potent Layzner Formation to fix that, GC unfortunately doesn't have that combination attack. L-Gaim Mk. II is practically as dodgy, but greater strength is appreciated. Plus Daba has Lilith as a sub-pilot. Will fit Daba into my final team for sure now.😁 Better than Time for L-Gaim? Maybe? -Who cares, wondrous theme for Mk. II. -- There's a lot of enemies here, but there isn't a single reinforcement, nor enemy commander. Very low-key mission. I had to use an Enable, but this might be the first truly useful MAP I've pulled off in GC. Destroyed all but two of them, you can thank Eiji for weakening the Heavy Metal. Oh, and I decided to have Eiji tickle one of the three Sarge Opus. The generic Poseidal Officer panicked at Rebel strength, Amandara was on board the ship (not too much of a surprise, Episode 47 is called "Amandara Kasandara"), he said he wasn't comfortable in this situation and intended to leave now. What exactly happened next I'm not sure of. But I think Amandara blew up the Sarge Opus himself, he then escaped in a Shuttle, made an SOS to the White Base Corps. Amandara then got aboard MY ship! Amu, Kyao, and Lilith didn't want him on. Amandara said he's just a merchant, and Diane from Dragonar said he can stay and even invited him to the residential block.😑 The merchant turned it down, he'd like to escape via the shuttle right away if things get dangerous. (Oh, if they knew what I knew you'd be DEAD right now!) Daba told his friends to stop arguing, they've got combat to get back to, they'll talk with Amandara later. Very light battle is won very easily. The heroes return to ship to resupply, Judau is hungry and wants his little sister to freed him. Jin is also insensitive to girls. Fraw, Quattro, Bright say a blurb about enemies requesting reinforcements. Things then turn to a Daba and Amandara one-on-one conversation. Daba thanks Amandara for providing the Rebel Army with a lot of ships and weapons, Amandara says Daba has grown since they last met. Daba then requests all the ships in Amandara's self-defense force. Amandara says he hates the government, but he admits to prolonging the war by selling to both sides to sell more weapons. Daba criticizes Mammon-dara as a merchant of death, he rolls with that. A few more words ending in acrimony and Daba's vow to take down Posaydal. Amandara takes his shuttle out, he sees Daba is serious, he'll wait for him at Sveto. No idea what that could possibly mean. Again, setup for what'll be one lategame rush of pure Pentagonan plot. (Which for the record will leave Nubia, Zarl-Robot Empires, Muge Empire, maybe Belzeb, and Gadisword left.) 1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said: As it turns out, it seems at the end of Braiger the J9 team do manage to avoid Earth being affected, but Project Atum succeeds anyway. I guess this also plays into why Khamen is seen in a favorable light in the distant future. Since for all intents and purposes, nothing truly bad happened. Earth was fine and avoided catastrophe (even if it wasn't exactly due to Khamen), so the new planets were just all pluses and no downsides. -THAT explains the Sasuraigar Canadian!😃 So the heroes managed to do something meaningful after all.😄 51 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said: Also... man, Baxinger truly is a big allegory, ain't it. Your posts already showed as much, but the wiki entry really lays it out straight outright. More than just a cool giant robot being cool by smashing things cooly?😜 -Any true mecha fan knows it's more than just about the steel giants blowing things up, that's only 60% of the glory of mecha -give or take ...30%?😆 ...The Shinsengumi Bakumatsu period samurai thing that Wikipedia mentions you mean? Never actually heard of it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.