Should "Pick your Path" be a series mainstay?

[Acacia Sgt]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

But, as I've said, these are things people from that time literally picked up on.

And people also picked up the fact Phina could use the Rapier in MotE, which Kaga acknowledged as important since at least 1998. By your logic, that would be a sequel hook for a third Archanea game, where her "royal heritage", as Kaga stated, would be revealed. Yet we never got said game, and then Kaga left the company so we might never do. More so when NMotE removes her ability to use the rapier, so it might as well been retconned out.

And the fact Kaga opted to make a distant prequel likely hinted he was never intending to actually follow up on the Phina thing. Unless he was for his Emblem Saga, before the whole lawsuit debacle with Nintendo happened.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

The story of Elibe wasn't over, but the story of Roy and his friends was. Gaiden pulled the same thing with "people will eventually fight again". These are not sequel hooks, they are affirmations of themes and if they were sequel hooks they'd be hooks to distant futures of the continent which would work just as well in a game with branched stories.

Possible, but we are not obliged to keep the same characters as the lead. So even less than a decade, just not with the usual suspects. Kinda like what RD was doing in Part 1, before going back to using Ike.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

If it were just hacking the game then that would be it. But people didn't just hack the game and see identical stats and called it a day. Aside from the Renning thing they hacked the game and found supporting evidence.

Well, where are those discussions, then? Even this site is post-RD, so there won't be any here. For starters I tried to see in Gamefaqs, but even their PoR message board only goes as far back as 2008. Perhaps there were older posts/threads, since there are pinned threads from 2006, but it seems they were already deleted.

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Yes...What is the point? I've already talked about bow that sequel wasn't planned.

It was mostly to this:

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, and were unlikely to get an Elibe, Magvel, Jugdral or Ylisse set a few years after the current games.

Combined that you make statements such as this:

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The story of Elibe wasn't over, but the story of Roy and his friends was.

I brought up Shadow Dragon since it was in a similar position. The game gave Marth a sense of finality, his story being over just like you say Roy's story is over. Yet Shadow Dragon got a sequel that continued Marth's story, hence it leaves the door open for Roy's story to continue, or that of Ephraim and Eirika's, or that of Chrom's, etc.

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This is what I was referring to.

We did indeed see Elibe decades after Blazing Blade...But that's because it was a prequel and thus has no relevance to the topic of sequels to multi path games.

Yeah, I shouldn't have put that last comma. It was meant to be lumped with MotE and RD, in that the time gaps aren't that big.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

And people also picked up the fact Phina could use the Rapier in MotE, which Kaga acknowledged as important since at least 1998. By your logic, that would be a sequel hook for a third Archanea game, where her "royal heritage", as Kaga stated, would be revealed. Yet we never got said game, and then Kaga left the company so we might never do. More so when NMotE removes her ability to use the rapier, so it might as well been retconned out.

And the fact Kaga opted to make a distant prequel likely hinted he was never intending to actually follow up on the Phina thing. Unless he was for his Emblem Saga, before the whole lawsuit debacle with Nintendo happened.

I don't find those as good arguments as it's entirely possible Kaga was intending to make more Archanean games. Don't forget the BS titles game out between Jugdral games so it's not like Kaga ever really left the setting.

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Possible, but we are not obliged to keep the same characters as the lead. So even less than a decade, just not with the usual suspects. Kinda like what RD was doing in Part 1, before going back to using Ike.

Another point on Path of Radiance I should have emphasised more is that, ignoring the hints, the plot just lends itself more to a follow up as it's less of a total war scenario. Only three countries are directly involved with the conflict (Daein, Gallia and Crimeia) with the others providing support. After the game powerful nations are still standing while in most Fire Emblem games the major stability is over thrown if not resulting in an outright united land. I know youll probably disagree with that but Daein vs Crimea seems a lot more localized than anything that fame before or after.

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I brought up Shadow Dragon since it was in a similar position. The game gave Marth a sense of finality, his story being over just like you say Roy's story is over. Yet Shadow Dragon got a sequel that continued Marth's story, hence it leaves the door open for Roy's story to continue, or that of Ephraim and Eirika's, or that of Chrom's, etc.

Yes you could make a sequel to any game in the series by using bullshit excuses to revive all the enemies previously defeated. But aside from the early days when they did that once, they never did again. Marth' s story didn't lend itself to a sequel and the sequel we got, while popular, was very contrived in nature.

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, I shouldn't have put that last comma. It was meant to be lumped with MotE and RD, in that the time gaps aren't that big.

The point really still stands that Blazing Blade and Fodlan are no different in terms of sequel potential. They could pick one route for Three Houses and make a sequel. Or they could just make a sequel to Binding Blade. They won't for either though, but they're both completely viable.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I don't find those as good arguments as it's entirely possible Kaga was intending to make more Archanean games. Don't forget the BS titles game out between Jugdral games so it's not like Kaga ever really left the setting.

Did he? Since even Genealogy was not going to be a Fire Emblem game originally, but Kaga changed his mind.

https://garmtranslations.wordpress.com/2019/02/13/fire-emblem-genealogy-of-the-holy-war-fan-special-roundtable-discussion/

I had originally intended for this game to be separate from the ‘Fire Emblem’ series thus far…kind of like a different game, while still belonging to the same overall group; however, it ended up as a ‘Fire Emblem’ title due to various factors, which might explain how the game turned out.

We know that after leaving IS he did wanted to do more direct follow ups on Archanea, since he planned for Xane to show up in Emblem Saga. But between MotE and his departure from IS there's no indication he was going to work beyond MotE. Satellaview is an interquel and not even a full game, after all.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Another point on Path of Radiance I should have emphasised more is that, ignoring the hints, the plot just lends itself more to a follow up as it's less of a total war scenario. Only three countries are directly involved with the conflict (Daein, Gallia and Crimeia) with the others providing support. After the game powerful nations are still standing while in most Fire Emblem games the major stability is over thrown if not resulting in an outright united land. I know youll probably disagree with that but Daein vs Crimea seems a lot more localized than anything that fame before or after.

Actually, it's not that common.

Archanea and Valentia get united, yes.

Jugdral, however, does not. It can happen if you kill off everybody so Seliph takes over everything, but it's not something that happens by default like with Marth and Alm being given everything.

Elibe does not unite either. We're told that it will, one day, but that's about it.

Magvel doesn't unite either. The closest you can do is some (possible) personal unions, by having L'Arachel marry either of Innes or Ephraim and they don't have more than one kid or the firstborn inherits everything. And Ephraim highly likely inheriting Grado.

Tellius doesn't unite either, even after two games. The closest is the bird tribes all moving together back to Serenes.

Ylisse doesn't unite either. Valm did by Walhart, but it's very possible his empire will fragment back again after his death.

No united land in Fates either.

As it stands, PoR was not really standing out, since it was a trend already seen since Genealogy.

Yes, it's a localized conflict since the bulk of the war happened within Daein and Crimea proper, with only few battles outside their borders. But we still went all around the continent, like in most previous FE games. That's as much of a staple as the continent-spanning war is.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yes you could make a sequel to any game in the series by using bullshit excuses to revive all the enemies previously defeated. But aside from the early days when they did that once, they never did again. Marth' s story didn't lend itself to a sequel and the sequel we got, while popular, was very contrived in nature.

That's not an obligation, you know. Just because they did that once doesn't mean they would do it every time. Although... they kinda did anyway. RD brought back the Black Knight and Oliver, despite both being thought as death. But to their credit they didn't did the same to Ashnard.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

The point really still stands that Blazing Blade and Fodlan are no different in terms of sequel potential. They could pick one route for Three Houses and make a sequel. Or they could just make a sequel to Binding Blade. They won't for either though, but they're both completely viable.

Indeed.

[Lemmy]

In the short term, more paths should mean more maps which I'm fond of; but it would be very hard for three houses or fates to get a direct sequel, which is bittersweet knowing we'll never see the.characters again.

 

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Did he? Since even Genealogy was not going to be a Fire Emblem game originally, but Kaga changed his mind.

https://garmtranslations.wordpress.com/2019/02/13/fire-emblem-genealogy-of-the-holy-war-fan-special-roundtable-discussion/

I had originally intended for this game to be separate from the ‘Fire Emblem’ series thus far…kind of like a different game, while still belonging to the same overall group; however, it ended up as a ‘Fire Emblem’ title due to various factors, which might explain how the game turned out.

We know that after leaving IS he did wanted to do more direct follow ups on Archanea, since he planned for Xane to show up in Emblem Saga. But between MotE and his departure from IS there's no indication he was going to work beyond MotE. Satellaview is an interquel and not even a full game, after all.

You're defeating your own argument there admitting he actually did intend to return to the setting and characters (or at least one).

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Actually, it's not that common.

Archanea and Valentia get united, yes.

Jugdral, however, does not. It can happen if you kill off everybody so Seliph takes over everything, but it's not something that happens by default like with Marth and Alm being given everything.

Elibe does not unite either. We're told that it will, one day, but that's about it.

Magvel doesn't unite either. The closest you can do is some (possible) personal unions, by having L'Arachel marry either of Innes or Ephraim and they don't have more than one kid or the firstborn inherits everything. And Ephraim highly likely inheriting Grado.

Tellius doesn't unite either, even after two games. The closest is the bird tribes all moving together back to Serenes.

Ylisse doesn't unite either. Valm did by Walhart, but it's very possible his empire will fragment back again after his death.

No united land in Fates either.

As it stands, PoR was not really standing out, since it was a trend already seen since Genealogy.

Yes, it's a localized conflict since the bulk of the war happened within Daein and Crimea proper, with only few battles outside their borders. But we still went all around the continent, like in most previous FE games. That's as much of a staple as the continent-spanning war is.

Your mis representing me there by focusing on united continent. I said "most Fire Emblem games the major stability is over thrown if not resulting in an outright united land". Path of Radiance is essentially the only game where we have what you might class as observer states in the conflict (until Three Houses, but even that's a bit different, though definitely not unwelcome).

 

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Although... they kinda did anyway. RD brought back the Black Knight and Oliver, despite both being thought as death. But to their credit they didn't did the same to Ashnard.

Nor Petrine or Shiharam either (and even the Black Knight they had a convenient out with the castle falls lost in the rubble scenario...though they decided to not choose that as the canon path and just had some really weird excuse in the Japanese version). And yes, I definitely don't want them making sequels with them just bringing back all the old dead characters.

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That's not an obligation, you know. Just because they did that once doesn't mean they would do it every time.

But that's kind of my point. A lot of the titles in Fire Emblem to fully explore what is presented, which to my mind Path of Radiance does not. Maybe I am biased by Radiant Dawn's existence, it's definitely possible, as I did play Radiant Dawn before playing Path of Radiance. But you haven't really convinced me Path of Radiance is just like every other Fire Emblem in this regard. I think the points I've brought up are strong, you think they're not, so we're at an impasse on that point.

All that being said, if they were looking to make a sequel out of the other games, the most reasonable thing to do would be to make a new external threat, such as an invasion by another continent not featured in the previous games. And they actually have kind of done this, though not as a bone fide sequel, but as the second arc of Awakening's story. This would be a way you could make a sequel for the likes of Binding Blade or Magvel without involving a rehash of the previous threats. And, somewhat ironically, Fodlan is the most posed to actually do that as it's the one setting (aside from the Gaiden-Archanea set up) to actually acknowledge the existence of outside lands. Of course by that same token, if they felt like it, they could have a follow up to Three Houses that just plain doesn't take place in Fodlan at all, focusing on Almyra or Brigid or the like, with some of the same characters appearing Gaiden style (Caspar and Lindhart's endings in particular would easily allow for that).

Edited August 15, 2022 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

You're defeating your own argument there admitting he actually did intend to return to the setting and characters (or at least one).

Not really. Since it shows he had no intention to return to Archanea for his fourth game, nor his fifth. And when he finally did more Archanea stuff, Phina was nowhere to be seen, which was the argument. That he created a detail that you would consider a plot hook, but then never delivered, as reflected in his work after he created the detail.

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Your mis representing me there by focusing on united continent. I said "most Fire Emblem games the major stability is over thrown if not resulting in an outright united land". Path of Radiance is essentially the only game where we have what you might class as observer states in the conflict (until Three Houses, but even that's a bit different, though definitely not unwelcome).

Not really.

Talys never officially participated in either war, for example. Short of a single non-affiliated pirate attack, nothing ever happened there. If you say something like Mostyn housing Marth or hiring Ogma and his men for him counts, then that invalidates your PoR point. Who can even count as observer state anyway? Only Goldoa perhaps, but even then they had Talys-level of involvement even if not participating directly in the war. PoR ended no different from previous contients did.

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Nor Petrine or Shiharam either (and even the Black Knight they had a convenient out with the castle falls lost in the rubble scenario...though they decided to not choose that as the canon path and just had some really weird excuse in the Japanese version). And yes, I definitely don't want them making sequels with them just bringing back all the old dead characters.

Except the Black Knight could've easily remained dead. So not a sign there'd be a sequel because we saw the "we didn't see him die so he's definitely alive" trope in action, since it's not a guaranteed thing. Also, his excuse for survival is as contrived as Gharnef's, as it were.

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But that's kind of my point. A lot of the titles in Fire Emblem to fully explore what is presented, which to my mind Path of Radiance does not. Maybe I am biased by Radiant Dawn's existence, it's definitely possible, as I did play Radiant Dawn before playing Path of Radiance. But you haven't really convinced me Path of Radiance is just like every other Fire Emblem in this regard. I think the points I've brought up are strong, you think they're not, so we're at an impasse on that point.

There's only so much I can do if you're still shackled by that mentality. You have to put effort to not be biased by RD's existence, otherwise there really is little chance to have a proper discussion on the subject.

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All that being said, if they were looking to make a sequel out of the other games, the most reasonable thing to do would be to make a new external threat, such as an invasion by another continent not featured in the previous games. And they actually have kind of done this, though not as a bone fide sequel, but as the second arc of Awakening's story. This would be a way you could make a sequel for the likes of Binding Blade or Magvel without involving a rehash of the previous threats. And, somewhat ironically, Fodlan is the most posed to actually do that as it's the one setting (aside from the Gaiden-Archanea set up) to actually acknowledge the existence of outside lands. Of course by that same token, if they felt like it, they could have a follow up to Three Houses that just plain doesn't take place in Fodlan at all, focusing on Almyra or Brigid or the like, with some of the same characters appearing Gaiden style (Caspar and Lindhart's endings in particular would easily allow for that).

Well, not necessarily an external threat. MotE still works with Hardin as the antagonist, it's only the Gharnef involvement that feels redundant since we already saw him in that role with Medeus. Maybe the Darksphere ploy could've been done by survivors of Gharnef's cult, enacting revenge by rotting the Archanean Kingdom from within. Or something like that.

But yeah, there's still room for new stories, no need to look outside the continent itself.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

16 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not really. Since it shows he had no intention to return to Archanea for his fourth game, nor his fifth. And when he finally did more Archanea stuff, Phina was nowhere to be seen, which was the argument. That he created a detail that you would consider a plot hook, but then never delivered, as reflected in his work after he created the detail.

Not really.

Talys never officially participated in either war, for example. Short of a single non-affiliated pirate attack, nothing ever happened there. If you say something like Mostyn housing Marth or hiring Ogma and his men for him counts, then that invalidates your PoR point. Who can even count as observer state anyway? Only Goldoa perhaps, but even then they had Talys-level of involvement even if not participating directly in the war. PoR ended no different from previous contients did.

Except the Black Knight could've easily remained dead. So not a sign there'd be a sequel because we saw the "we didn't see him die so he's definitely alive" trope in action, since it's not a guaranteed thing. Also, his excuse for survival is as contrived as Gharnef's, as it were.

There's only so much I can do if you're still shackled by that mentality. You have to put effort to not be biased by RD's existence, otherwise there really is little chance to have a proper discussion on the subject.

Well, not necessarily an external threat. MotE still works with Hardin as the antagonist, it's only the Gharnef involvement that feels redundant since we already saw him in that role with Medeus. Maybe the Darksphere ploy could've been done by survivors of Gharnef's cult, enacting revenge by rotting the Archanean Kingdom from within. Or something like that.

But yeah, there's still room for new stories, no need to look outside the continent itself.

You're getting hung up on details here talking about Phina and the like. That's why I haven't been talking about a "Mystery of the Emblem" sequel, it's not relevant to what I'm trying to say. Rather than trying to bring up any points of your own, you're just trying to refute my points by sayinfg "not really" using logic that is obviously failing to convince me and me responding with logic that fails to convince you. I've admited that I might have some bias, do you think that it's impossible that you too might have some bias too? Because it feels a lot more like you're trying to "win" rather than trying to actually listen to what I'm saying with these points. I'll say it again. You're either misrepresenting me or misunderstanding me. So let's dispense with Godloa and Phina and Darkspheres and the like and listen to the actual crux of my opinion. I'm saying that Fire Emblem stories, largely by their structural design, do not lend themselves easily for natural sequels, with the exception of Path of Radiance which sprinkled a lot more stuff like Phina than a typical Fire Emblem games does (because a sequel literally was planned before the game was finished being made). What I am not saying is that sequels are impossible to any of these games. I am not saying that any little bit of potential needs to be a sequel. Maybe Kaga did have far more plans for Archanea, or if not Archanea than continents set in the same continuity as all of his games were always linked in some way. Fire Emblem could have been the ongoing story of Marth with him as the star of every game like Mario or Link, but neither Kaga nor IS did that because it just wouldn't work, and I think they knew that after making Mystery.

Let me ask you this. Do you personally want more sequels to Fire Emblem games that already exist? Do you want to see Fomortiis and Yahn come back to stir up trouble again? Are you disappointed that Fire Emblem decided to focus on a different cast of characters in different (largely separate) continuities? Do you think it would have been good to spin out Marth as the hero and having sixteen games with him? Because they could do it. They could do anything. But they chose not to. And I think that was a good decision.

What I am ultimately saying with all this, and listen closely, is that I don't think that it's a coincidence that in the 32 years of Fire Emblem we've had only two direct sequels, one of which being very early in the series' history and the other being planned ahead of time. I think making prequels, spin offs, unrelated sequels, new continuities, distant sequels and interquels were the most sensible choice to handling the IP rather than shitting out an unplanned sequel because Lucina or Hector turned out to be popular characters.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

You're getting hung up on details here talking about Phina and the like. That's why I haven't been talking about a "Mystery of the Emblem" sequel, it's not relevant to what I'm trying to say. Rather than trying to bring up any points of your own, you're just trying to refute my points by sayinfg "not really" using logic that is obviously failing to convince me and me responding with logic that fails to convince you. I've admited that I might have some bias, do you think that it's impossible that you too might have some bias too? Because it feels a lot more like you're trying to "win" rather than trying to actually listen to what I'm saying with these points. I'll say it again. You're either misrepresenting me or misunderstanding me. So let's dispense with Godloa and Phina and Darkspheres and the like and listen to the actual crux of my opinion. I'm saying that Fire Emblem stories, largely by their structural design, do not lend themselves easily for natural sequels, with the exception of Path of Radiance which sprinkled a lot more stuff like Phina than a typical Fire Emblem games does (because a sequel literally was planned before the game was finished being made). What I am not saying is that sequels are impossible to any of these games. I am not saying that any little bit of potential needs to be a sequel. Maybe Kaga did have far more plans for Archanea, or if not Archanea than continents set in the same continuity as all of his games were always linked in some way. Fire Emblem could have been the ongoing story of Marth with him as the star of every game like Mario or Link, but neither Kaga nor IS did that because it just wouldn't work, and I think they knew that after making Mystery.

I brought up Phina because you brought up Sothe. It totally is relevant since your argument is that Sothe's subplot existing must be a sign that a sequel will exist to resolve it. However, it's easy to say that when said sequel already exists. Don't know if it'd fall under Confirmation Bias, but it's clear it is influencing your thought process, per your own admission. Meanwhile, my counter argument was that not everything has to have a resolution, hence bringing up Phina as an example within Fire Emblem itself, since it never received a follow up. Thus, Sothe's own situation could easily be the same, and so someone back in 2005 would not be entirely convinced a sequel was coming, unlike your claim it was an 100% sure thing. If you want an example closer to home, Mia's white-clad rival subplot never gets resolved either, not even in Radiant Dawn.

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Let me ask you this. Do you personally want more sequels to Fire Emblem games that already exist? Do you want to see Fomortiis and Yahn come back to stir up trouble again? Are you disappointed that Fire Emblem decided to focus on a different cast of characters in different (largely separate) continuities? Do you think it would have been good to spin out Marth as the hero and having sixteen games with him? Because they could do it. They could do anything. But they chose not to. And I think that was a good decision.

Sequels? Yeah, I'm not opposed.

Rehashing plotlines? I'd prefer if they use different ones, but I'm not entirely opposed. Hence liking the Hardin angle but being neutral at worst about Gharnef being back (Medeus I don't really count since he's only really back in the very last chapter and only if you unlocked the true ending; he's no longer a driving force of the plot and more or a plot prop now).

Disappointment in cast and setting changing? No, not really.

Good to reuse Marth? Yes, if properly done it can work, so I wouldn't be opposed to the idea. There's series who have kept the same protagonist for lots of games, after all, so it can be done.

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What I am ultimately saying with all this, and listen closely, is that I don't think that it's a coincidence that in the 32 years of Fire Emblem we've had only two direct sequels, one of which being very early in the series' history and the other being planned ahead of time. I think making prequels, spin offs, unrelated sequels, new continuities, distant sequels and interquels were the most sensible choice to handling the IP rather than shitting out an unplanned sequel because Lucina or Hector turned out to be popular characters.

I wonder what would the opinion if FE had done otherwise. When did you first learned about Fire Emblem? I would presume you might have a different opinion if Fire Emblem had instead been a sequential story in the same setting by the time you learned about it. Since the formula can only remained unaplanned for so long if they're already set in making a chain of sequels. Kaga, at least, seemed to have wanted to develop a single word from the start. And even later on, they don't need to be working on the next game right away once the most recent one is fresh out of the oven. Give the game time to see how people react, and if it proved popular to suggest a sequel, they can begin planning for it and give it the proper process to develop things well.

But yeah, sequential storyline didn't happened for FE, and same world stopped being a thing after Kaga left.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[genesis]

I'd rather rif they do split paths/endings, or two stories played simultaneously like Shadows of Valentia and Radiant Dawn. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 8/14/2022 at 4:29 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

I think the problem here is that you're letting RD's existence cloud your judgement. You need to see this from the lens of 2005, when PoR had just released and we had no knowledge that a sequel was indeed in the plans.

 

I'm scratching my head at this exchange, because I remember 2005 and many people (myself included) were convinced Path of Radiance was setting up a sequel. I basically second all of Jotari's points, particularly almost everything related to Sephiran and Zelgius/the Black Knight. I don't think they mentioned this yet, but the whole final scene even has Sephiran go on a monologue about how Ike's actions are about to stir up an even greater conflict:

"...Thus do heroes give birth to new chapters in history... Ike, I doubt if you've even noticed... Your story, the everyday mercenary who becomes a hero will awake ugly appetite and ambition in many. It will be the cause of strife and discord throughout the land. I'm certain Ashnard saw the truth in this. In a way, Ashnard's dream may have been fulfilled. The seeds of war have indeed been sewn across  the continent. It appears your trials are just beginning, my  gallant, young hero... May the goddess ride with you."

I don't recall any other FE ending with anything remotely like this... except Blazing Blade, which of course was setting up the previously-released Binding Blade.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Dark Holy Elf

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

I'm scratching my head at this exchange, because I remember 2005 and many people (myself included) were convinced Path of Radiance was setting up a sequel. I basically second all of Jotari's points, particularly almost everything related to Sephiran and Zelgius/the Black Knight. I don't think they mentioned this yet, but the whole final scene even has Sephiran go on a monologue about how Ike's actions are about to stir up an even greater conflict:

"...Thus do heroes give birth to new chapters in history... Ike, I doubt if you've even noticed... Your story, the everyday mercenary who becomes a hero will awake ugly appetite and ambition in many. It will be the cause of strife and discord throughout the land. I'm certain Ashnard saw the truth in this. In a way, Ashnard's dream may have been fulfilled. The seeds of war have indeed been sewn across  the continent. It appears your trials are just beginning, my  gallant, young hero... May the goddess ride with you."

I don't recall any other FE ending with anything remotely like this... except Blazing Blade, which of course was setting up the previously-released Binding Blade.

Because the point was it could've easily... just not happened. Like, they could've just as easily set all this up... and just not deliver. Just like how RD sets up Ike still having plenty of adventure ahead of him yet we've not yet gotten a game about that. Or Binding Blade teasing a story about the unification of Elibe that we've yet to see as well.

I never said the possibility of a sequel was 0. Just that it wasn't 100%, as Jotari claimed, going by the points he himself raised.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Because the point was it could've easily... just not happened. Like, they could've just as easily set all this up... and just not deliver. Just like how RD sets up Ike still having plenty of adventure ahead of him yet we've not yet gotten a game about that. Or Binding Blade teasing a story about the unification of Elibe that we've yet to see as well.

I never said the possibility of a sequel was 0. Just that it wasn't 100%, as Jotari claimed, going by the points he himself raised.

I mean, I agree that the probability wasn't 100%, but I certainly felt it was... quite high? Over 50% for sure, and much higher than any other game in the series.

Like you mention RD, but that isn't even remotely comparable, in my opinion. RD ends with far more finality. The plot threads which PoR left open are tied up, your final opponent is literally the setting's deity (hard to top), and everyone gets explicit endings detailing their (usually peaceful) rest of their lives. A Gaiden-style sequel involving Ike travelling to a whole new continent is possible but much less likely (I certainly wasn't expecting it, and I don't think many others were either), compared to PoR which looks the player directly in the eye and says "this story isn't done".

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I mean, I agree that the probability wasn't 100%, but I certainly felt it was... quite high? Over 50% for sure, and much higher than any other game in the series.

Like you mention RD, but that isn't even remotely comparable, in my opinion. RD ends with far more finality. The plot threads which PoR left open are tied up, your final opponent is literally the setting's deity (hard to top), and everyone gets explicit endings detailing their (usually peaceful) rest of their lives. A Gaiden-style sequel involving Ike travelling to a whole new continent is possible but much less likely (I certainly wasn't expecting it, and I don't think many others were either), compared to PoR which looks the player directly in the eye and says "this story isn't done".

Which was kinda my point. Something like Ike leaving Tellius to who knows where can work as a sequel hook for a future work... but also it can work as just something we don't need a follow-up for. Which was more or less what I meant with the Sothe thing. Jotari stated that him having a subplot that remained unresolved in PoR was a definite sign there'd be a sequel since it had to have a resolution, but my counter-point was that there's no obligation to have one, so it's not a sign there will be a sequel. Could, yes, but not will. Even then, there's always a chance that even with a sequel it could've still remained unresolved. Like Mia's subplot ended up being.

So, "this story isn't done" can certainly make one think there'll be a future work, but at the same time it's not a guarantee thing. Since "the story isn't done... but that's all we'll show to you" is also a thing that can be pulled off. As Binding Blade kinda did by revealing something in its Epilogue that never got a follow up.

[Dark Holy Elf]

14 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Which was kinda my point. Something like Ike leaving Tellius to who knows where can work as a sequel hook for a future work... but also it can work as just something we don't need a follow-up for. Which was more or less what I meant with the Sothe thing. Jotari stated that him having a subplot that remained unresolved in PoR was a definite sign there'd be a sequel since it had to have a resolution, but my counter-point was that there's no obligation to have one, so it's not a sign there will be a sequel. Could, yes, but not will. Even then, there's always a chance that even with a sequel it could've still remained unresolved. Like Mia's subplot ended up being.

So, "this story isn't done" can certainly make one think there'll be a future work, but at the same time it's not a guarantee thing. Since "the story isn't done... but that's all we'll show to you" is also a thing that can be pulled off. As Binding Blade kinda did by revealing something in its Epilogue that never got a follow up.

For what it's worth I don't personally consider Sothe's hook a smoking gun that there will be a sequel (I will admit I didn't think anything of it at the time). The Sephiran and Black Knight stuff kinda is, though, especially since the game draws major attention to it in the final scene. It's not a certainty, but, at the risk of repeating myself, it was way more likely than for any other game in the series (including Binding Blade and RD). Basically, if you told me right after finishing RD (or BB, I guess) that "no direct sequel will be made to this game" I'd say "yeah, wasn't expecting one". If you'd told me that after PoR, I'd have said "huh, that's a surprise. Guess PoR really bombed for sales". Like it's a reasonable possibility, sometimes stories have obvious sequel hooks and never get them, but that doesn't change the fact that PoR had clear sequel hooks in a way no other game in the series does (including the other one that actually did get a direct sequel, i.e. Shadow Dragon).

[Jotari]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:37 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

I brought up Phina because you brought up Sothe. It totally is relevant since your argument is that Sothe's subplot existing must be a sign that a sequel will exist to resolve it. However, it's easy to say that when said sequel already exists. Don't know if it'd fall under Confirmation Bias, but it's clear it is influencing your thought process, per your own admission. Meanwhile, my counter argument was that not everything has to have a resolution, hence bringing up Phina as an example within Fire Emblem itself, since it never received a follow up. Thus, Sothe's own situation could easily be the same, and so someone back in 2005 would not be entirely convinced a sequel was coming, unlike your claim it was an 100% sure thing. If you want an example closer to home, Mia's white-clad rival subplot never gets resolved either, not even in Radiant Dawn.'

No, I didn't. I said there were specific plot points left hanging. Which is absolutely objectively true. Are there specific plot points left hanging in other Fire Emblem games? Sure, yeah, a few here and there. But there are more in Path of Radiance. And ones that were quite literally intentionally done. I'm repeating myself now, but you are very blatantly misrepresenting me and hyperfocusing on minor parts of my overall argument. I never said it was 100% sure thing. This is what I said.

On 8/14/2022 at 2:41 PM, Jotari said:

I think there is significant differences between Shadow Dragon and Path of Radiance. Path of Radiance has specific plot points that were left hanging. Could the story have stopped there? Well yes, of course it could have its still a stand alone story. But had it stopped there then it would have stood out as the Fire Emblem game were a sequel would make the most sense.

We can have fun arguing this point, but you have to actually understand what I'm saying. I think you're too wrapped up in winning the argument here over actually talking about the topic at hand. Because I've only ever said the same stuff Dark Holy Elf has.

Quote

I wonder what would the opinion if FE had done otherwise. When did you first learned about Fire Emblem? I would presume you might have a different opinion if Fire Emblem had instead been a sequential story in the same setting by the time you learned about it. Since the formula can only remained unaplanned for so long if they're already set in making a chain of sequels. Kaga, at least, seemed to have wanted to develop a single word from the start. And even later on, they don't need to be working on the next game right away once the most recent one is fresh out of the oven. Give the game time to see how people react, and if it proved popular to suggest a sequel, they can begin planning for it and give it the proper process to develop things well.

But yeah, sequential storyline didn't happened for FE, and same world stopped being a thing after Kaga left.

I wouldn't have an issue at all if Fire Emblem continued to develop the same world (though I do have some issue without how Kaga actually did that with Camus in Archanea). And, in fact, with Three Houses we stand the best chance of them actually doing something like that again if they decide to reuse Almyria or Sreng in some fashion in future games. I don't actually expect them to, but I think it would be great. But there's a big difference between developing the same world and developing the same cast.

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

I'm scratching my head at this exchange, because I remember 2005 and many people (myself included) were convinced Path of Radiance was setting up a sequel. I basically second all of Jotari's points, particularly almost everything related to Sephiran and Zelgius/the Black Knight. I don't think they mentioned this yet, but the whole final scene even has Sephiran go on a monologue about how Ike's actions are about to stir up an even greater conflict:

"...Thus do heroes give birth to new chapters in history... Ike, I doubt if you've even noticed... Your story, the everyday mercenary who becomes a hero will awake ugly appetite and ambition in many. It will be the cause of strife and discord throughout the land. I'm certain Ashnard saw the truth in this. In a way, Ashnard's dream may have been fulfilled. The seeds of war have indeed been sewn across  the continent. It appears your trials are just beginning, my  gallant, young hero... May the goddess ride with you."

I don't recall any other FE ending with anything remotely like this... except Blazing Blade, which of course was setting up the previously-released Binding Blade.

It's not just you. Here's a prerelease interview for Radiant Dawn where the interviewers specifically note how a lot of mysteries were left unanswered in Path of Radiance.

https://serenesforest.net/general/interviews/radiant-dawn/nintendo-dream/page-3/

It also notes how they never intended to leave Tellius with just one title, how they began developing Radiant Dawn immediately after Path of Radiance's release and how Path of Radiance told the first half of the continent's story (but also that you don't necessarily need to play Path of Radiance to play Radiant Dawn as they are stand alone games). Course the developers could say anything to try and sell the game, but it's clear from the interviewer's question that they considered Path of Radiance as a game with obvious sequel potential.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Jotari

[Eltosian Kadath]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:37 AM, Acacia Sgt said:

Don't know if it'd fall under Confirmation Bias, but it's clear it is influencing your thought process, per your own admission.

The word you are looking for here is Survivorship bias. Radiant Dawn is the sequel that managed to make it, so people go looking for the reasons, not realizing that many of those "reasons" are things that other games did as well, and didn't get a sequel, they are just given more weight after the fact because Radiant Dawn succeeded, and evidence comes to exist that wouldn't for those that failed (like softball interviews where they are paid to mention how excited, and expected this sequel was).

 

On 8/15/2022 at 5:01 AM, Jotari said:

Your mis representing me there by focusing on united continent. I said "most Fire Emblem games the major stability is over thrown if not resulting in an outright united land". Path of Radiance is essentially the only game where we have what you might class as observer states in the conflict

Fates is another one that comes to mind, I mean we never even see the Fire Tribe beyond Rinkah for instance, and the Wind tribe also act far more as observers testing Corrin, than an active part of this conflict. Honestly, Fate's world is so underdeveloped with so many questions and myseries left unanswered (like who are the other primordial dragon, and who are their people? What happened to the curse of Valla, and how did it come to be? If I specified a route I could keep going for days on the plot points left open by this game/these games...), that it kinda needs another game to actually develop it. If we are counting Begnion as an observer (which you indicated in a previous post), than I think Awakening's Regna Ferox would apply, like Begnion their main role is to give the good guys a big imaginary army, rather than being a big part of any of the conflicts with major instability brought to its lands, with a couple maps of the good guys being tested, and only a very minor incursion via boats. Three houses has what feels like a lot of these observer states, with places like Almyra, Brigid, and Dagda (and others I am surely forgetting) and we only got the alternate version of events in Three Hopes...

 

29 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't think they mentioned this yet, but the whole final scene even has Sephiran go on a monologue about how Ike's actions are about to stir up an even greater conflict:

"...Thus do heroes give birth to new chapters in history... Ike, I doubt if you've even noticed... Your story, the everyday mercenary who becomes a hero will awake ugly appetite and ambition in many. It will be the cause of strife and discord throughout the land. I'm certain Ashnard saw the truth in this. In a way, Ashnard's dream may have been fulfilled. The seeds of war have indeed been sewn across  the continent. It appears your trials are just beginning, my  gallant, young hero... May the goddess ride with you."

And this quote is left unfulfilled in the sequel. Everyone causing problems in Radiant Dawn were all people of means, and political power, many of whom were already casing problems in Path of Radiance (like the slaving senators, and the feral master Izuka), or like the Dawn Brigade, are doing so righteously. Plus, the quote is just a minor variation on the conflict are caused by greed/pride/ambition living on in the hearts of men, which is one of the most traditional, and repeated theme's of Fire Emblem game's endings. Medius has a version of it as his death quote in every game he is in, Gaiden and Echoes ends on their own variation of it, Julius has a similar thing as his death quote if Seliph gets the kill.

 

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Basically, if you told me right after finishing RD (or BB, I guess) that "no direct sequel will be made to this game" I'd say "yeah, wasn't expecting one".

Funny, as I think both end on better sequel hooks than Path of Radiance did. If Lehran both lived, and is recruited, Radiant Dawn ending with the return of both Ashunera, and war to the continent, and The Binding Blade ends by mentioning a conflict that unites all of Elibe into a single nation "but that is a tale for another time"...

[Jotari]

52 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Fates is another one that comes to mind, I mean we never even see the Fire Tribe beyond Rinkah for instance, and the Wind tribe also act far more as observers testing Corrin, than an active part of this conflict. Honestly, Fate's world is so underdeveloped with so many questions and myseries left unanswered (like who are the other primordial dragon, and who are their people? What happened to the curse of Valla, and how did it come to be? If I specified a route I could keep going for days on the plot points left open by this game/these games...), that it kinda needs another game to actually develop it.

I don't get the impression the Fire or wind Tribes are powers that can rival Hoshido or Nohr, but yeah, for Fates it feels more down to under development than any idea for a sequel. I'm still not sure where you'd go with a sequel in Fates though. Would it be focusing entirely on one of Nohr, Hoshido or Valla? Or would it be Nohr and Hoshido coming into conflict again? Focusing on one of the three would probably be the best route, but even then they're so underdeveloped I'm not even sure what the threat would be if it was some kind of internal conflict. Just jumping full into Valla and making up a population or exploring some other weird fantasy worlds from that point might be the best avenue to take.

52 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

If we are counting Begnion as an observer (which you indicated in a previous post), than I think Awakening's Regna Ferox would apply, like Begnion their main role is to give the good guys a big imaginary army, rather than being a big part of any of the conflicts with major instability brought to its lands, with a couple maps of the good guys being tested, and only a very minor incursion via boats. Three houses has what feels like a lot of these observer states, with places like Almyra, Brigid, and Dagda (and others I am surely forgetting) and we only got the alternate version of events in Three Hopes...

Well if you're taking just Gangrel, then yeah. But with Valm Basillio and Flavia are major characters with them and their nation contributing to the war effort and the defeat of Grima.

[AnonymousSpeed]

An FE9 sequel was so guaranteed they made it even when the game both performed and played poorly.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Course the developers could say anything to try and sell the game

As they did with Golden Sun.

[joevar]

36 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

An FE9 sequel was so guaranteed they made it even when the game both performed and played poorly.

so.. more or less FF13 right? i dont think people like it that much (people downright hated it actually) but the game go on to have a trilogy despite the second part performed even worse.

i dont think just because a game have hanging plot means it would or should get a sequel.  it works as sequel bait maybe, but developer mistake (of making plot hole) should be considered too, as to why it happen in the first place.

Edited August 20, 2022 by joevar

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

As they did with Golden Sun.

I'm pretty sure in that situation they literally just ran out of money and released the game half complete and then just made the sequel as the second half.

[AnonymousSpeed]

2 hours ago, joevar said:

so.. more or less FF13 right? i dont think people like it that much (people downright hated it actually) but the game go on to have a trilogy despite the second part performed even worse. 

FE13 sold very well, and I wouldn't exactly call it a trilogy with Fates and Echoes. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, in which case I apologize.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I'm pretty sure in that situation they literally just ran out of money and released the game half complete and then just made the sequel as the second half.

I was talking about Dark Dawn more specifically, sorry.

[Fabulously Olivier]

23 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

FE13 sold very well, and I wouldn't exactly call it a trilogy with Fates and Echoes. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, in which case I apologize.

I was talking about Dark Dawn more specifically, sorry.

He said FF13, as in Final Fantasy 13. Probably the most hated part of the franchise (even though 15 is worse).

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

He said FF13, as in Final Fantasy 13. Probably the most hated part of the franchise (even though 15 is worse).

Final Fantasy 15 probably gets less anger directed at it because it's well-understood at this point that the game suffered a truly horrifying 10-year development nightmare. It wasn't even originally supposed to be FF15; it was supposed to be a spinoff title called Final Fantasy Versus XIII with a wildly different story.

 

Anyway, back to Fire Emblem, it was very obvious that Path of Radiance was going to get a direct sequel; several characters were set up with the intent that they would do more in a future title and a number of mysteries were left unanswered as a sequel hook. Honestly, with so many stories these days being so focused on setting up future sequels that they forget to tell their own story, it's nice looking back on Path of Radiance and seeing that it set up a sequel properly and didn't forget to have its own story.

[ciphertul]

To be honest, I'm against it. I would like to have a post game again kinda like a more updated version of creature campaign. 

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I was talking about Dark Dawn more specifically, sorry.

I'm still not sure what specific developer comments you're referring to inregaeds t0 that game. It seems like they were setting up a sequel though, until the game bombed. But considering the teaser at the end was the same as the very first plot point that was forgotten five hours into the game, I'm not sure they even knew what they were doing. Alas we'll probably never see a Dark Dawn follow up, so a fourth instalment of the series that is actually good rather than just charming and we have the oppertunity to kick Alex's ass will have to exist purely in our imaginations.