Should "Pick your Path" be a series mainstay?

[Acacia Sgt]

I recall reading it was a space issue. Both TBS and TLA couldn't fit in a single cartridge, so Camelot had to split it up into two games.

Smh those gold passcodes were a chore to write in...

Edited August 21, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I recall reading it was a space issue. Both TBS and TLA couldn't fit in a single cartridge, so Camelot had to split it up into two games.

Smh those gold passcodes were a chore to write in...

I don't doubt it,  but the Lost Age feels twice as big as Golden Sun. And also feels like half of it is filler. I think the decision certainly worked out in the end because it led to the Felix-Isaac split, but I'm sure they could have fitted it in to one cartridge if they were willing to drop some stuff. On an only slightly related note, the world map from the first game still fully exists in Lost Age and exploring it is a surprising amount for fun.

Dark Dawn also has a glitch allowing more of the continent to be seen too including glimpses at one of the other light houses.

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't doubt it,  but the Lost Age feels twice as big as Golden Sun.

Oh, it is actually. Literally. TBS is 8MB, TLA is 16MB. Considering TBS is a 2001 game, as in, the GBA's debut year, perhaps 24MB's was truly out of their scope. We know they eventually could've done it, as the largest GBA games are 32MB, but perhaps not back in 2001.

Quote

And also feels like half of it is filler. I think the decision certainly worked out in the end because it led to the Felix-Isaac split, but I'm sure they could have fitted it in to one cartridge if they were willing to drop some stuff.

And ironically some people feel it's empty at times, specially when it comes to the Western Sea. There's already signs some things had to be changed quite a bit during development (map placement in the data suggests as so), so it wouldn't be surprising that the game feels off in a way.

Quote

On an only slightly related note, the world map from the first game still fully exists in Lost Age and exploring it is a surprising amount for fun.

Dark Dawn also has a glitch allowing more of the continent to be seen too including glimpses at one of the other light houses.

Oh yes, by necessity they had to keep the parts already made in the first game, though there's still some changes. Like Hesperia being completely different, or that island southeast of north Gondowan being gone in TLA, etc. But it also shows that, likely for space reasons, they had to remove just about everything in there save for those few map icons and field maps required for cutscenes, and some of the enemy data since they just copied it into the TLA portions. That's why there's still encounter rates in there.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[joevar]

12 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

FE13 sold very well, and I wouldn't exactly call it a trilogy with Fates and Echoes. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, in which case I apologize.

i meant Final Fantasy, well its just one letter from FE to FF , lol. im just drawing parallel between what you said about getting sequel depite performing poorly. in which case because the dev already had planned for it they just push through with it no matter what fans said.

 

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Honestly, with so many stories these days being so focused on setting up future sequels that they forget to tell their own story

this i agree. they still need to aim to make you feel satisfied with the story/gameplay which make you want more, instead of making you need more (from so many things left hanging) just because they already had sequel in mind

with that in mind, if blazing blade were to release before binding blade it will also work just like PoR, since the plot in FE7 already solved. but there are some extra element that should be interesting such as places that were mentioned but not visited, divine weapon thats not appeared yet, and maybe whatever happen after certain character failed to meet its end, and even bigger conflict

12 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

He said FF13, as in Final Fantasy 13. Probably the most hated part of the franchise (even though 15 is worse).

FF15 might be worse to some, but the devs clearly pull the plug even though they had more plans for it. while FF13 spawn 2 (forced?) sequel which bombed even harder afaik.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, joevar said:

i meant Final Fantasy, well its just one letter from FE to FF , lol. im just drawing parallel between what you said about getting sequel depite performing poorly. in which case because the dev already had planned for it they just push through with it no matter what fans said.

 

this i agree. they still need to aim to make you feel satisfied with the story/gameplay which make you want more, instead of making you need more (from so many things left hanging) just because they already had sequel in mind

with that in mind, if blazing blade were to release before binding blade it will also work just like PoR, since the plot in FE7 already solved. but there are some extra element that should be interesting such as places that were mentioned but not visited, divine weapon thats not appeared yet, and maybe whatever happen after certain character failed to meet its end, and even bigger conflict

FF15 might be worse to some, but the devs clearly pull the plug even though they had more plans for it. while FF13 spawn 2 (forced?) sequel which bombed even harder afaik.

The weird thing about Blazing and Binding Blade of they were inverted would have been the legendary weapons going from prfs to S ranked weapons. It's already a bit weird, but I think it feels more natural going from S to prfs as the previous game establishes anyone can use them, and its just plot that only these two guys are using them. But if they were established as prfs it would be slightly strange to suddenly have everyone able to use them as you'd expect them to be locked to the establishes chosen warriors (one of which is still alive).

Also if they were inverted then Lyn probably would have shown up in Blazing Blade somewhere. If even only mentioned. Course Binding and Blazing Blade are another good example of why Fire Emblem rarely give sequels. Paired endings. If Eliwood is released first and you pair him with one character in one game then suddenly he's with someone else there's a disconnect. It's kind of like route splits, only minor, but related to shipping,  so far more important! They sort of lucked out by having Roy's mother so obliquely referred to, if it was 're other way round I have a hard time seeing them not canonizing Ninian. Mystery handled it by just having an official ship for Marth. Meanwhile Thracia managed it by just having the balls to canonize certain ships (and Radiant Dawn managed to avoid shipping entirely).

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Oh, it is actually. Literally. TBS is 8MB, TLA is 16MB. Considering TBS is a 2001 game, as in, the GBA's debut year, perhaps 24MB's was truly out of their scope. We know they eventually could've done it, as the largest GBA games are 32MB, but perhaps not back in 2001.

Ah yeah. I didn't consider the timing from that perspective. Still that meant the literal console had the capacity for it, the team just didn't have the experience.

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

And ironically some people feel it's empty at times, specially when it comes to the Western Sea. There's already signs some things had to be changed quite a bit during development (map placement in the data suggests as so), so it wouldn't be surprising that the game feels off in a way.

Oh yes, by necessity they had to keep the parts already made in the first game, though there's still some changes. Like Hesperia being completely different, or that island southeast of north Gondowan being gone in TLA, etc. But it also shows that, likely for space reasons, they had to remove just about everything in there save for those few map icons and field maps required for cutscenes, and some of the enemy data since they just copied it into the TLA portions. That's why there's still encounter rates in there.

Empty is certainly a good word for it. The most age felt quite promising, showing one continent in one game and then focusing on the entire world in the second. But then there's basically as much content on that first continent than the rest of the world put together. And you basically spend your time exploring that empty world trying to find the plot. At one point the "villains" even show up asking if you've forgotten that you actually have a specific mission to accomplish XD

[joevar]

44 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The weird thing about Blazing and Binding Blade of they were inverted would have been the legendary weapons going from prfs to S ranked weapons. It's already a bit weird, but I think it feels more natural going from S to prfs as the previous game establishes anyone can use them, and its just plot that only these two guys are using them. But if they were established as prfs it would be slightly strange to suddenly have everyone able to use them as you'd expect them to be locked to the establishes chosen warriors (one of which is still alive).

Also if they were inverted then Lyn probably would have shown up in Blazing Blade somewhere. If even only mentioned. Course Binding and Blazing Blade are another good example of why Fire Emblem rarely give sequels. Paired endings. If Eliwood is released first and you pair him with one character in one game then suddenly he's with someone else there's a disconnect. It's kind of like route splits, only minor, but related to shipping,  so far more important! They sort of lucked out by having Roy's mother so obliquely referred to, if it was 're other way round I have a hard time seeing them not canonizing Ninian. Mystery handled it by just having an official ship for Marth. Meanwhile Thracia managed it by just having the balls to canonize certain ships (and Radiant Dawn managed to avoid shipping entirely).

the first point.. yeah, they royally screwed. whoever wrote and decide legendary weapon locked behind "chosen" and "trial" in Blazing, make "even bandit can use it" in Binding a contradiction. since it will only become rusted weapon in merlinus caravan if it become prf and chosen warrior dies. again,  yet another reason permadeath making things more problematic than necessary. not that it would be hard to think of excuses why suddenly anyone can use them. for example; just say that Bramimond sudden death cause an oopsie that all tombs seal to be released, and the ancestor spirit that guards it to vanish too.

since it makes you wonder why the weapon never got stolen/moved in the first place for near a thousand year if bandits can occupy the tomb at all in FE6.

the second point should be easier tho. all the problem are interpersonal relationship problem that support bring with it. not exactly the base plot or lore that it contradict, more like whether the scriptwriter has the balls to risk fans ire by canonizing pair or not. but i think blazing actually rare FE that actually make some S pairing actually "fail" in ending, as in like each other but doesnt end up as couple. so only Roy and Lilina that obviously impacted by canonizing ship i think. 

not sure if theres luck involved but Roy mother not referred in game seems intentional.

[Dark Holy Elf]

7 hours ago, joevar said:

i meant Final Fantasy, well its just one letter from FE to FF , lol. im just drawing parallel between what you said about getting sequel depite performing poorly. in which case because the dev already had planned for it they just push through with it no matter what fans said.

 

FF13 sold extremely well, to be fair (unlike PoR). So the methods in which they underperformed are quite different. I'd say the way PoR performed poorly is much more likely to result in a game not having a sequel, so I second @AnonymousSpeed that RD existing at all is proof the devs really wanted to make a sequel to PoR, because it would have been better financial sense for them to cut their losses and make a new game entirely.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, joevar said:

the first point.. yeah, they royally screwed. whoever wrote and decide legendary weapon locked behind "chosen" and "trial" in Blazing, make "even bandit can use it" in Binding a contradiction. since it will only become rusted weapon in merlinus caravan if it become prf and chosen warrior dies. again,  yet another reason permadeath making things more problematic than necessary. not that it would be hard to think of excuses why suddenly anyone can use them. for example; just say that Bramimond sudden death cause an oopsie that all tombs seal to be released, and the ancestor spirit that guards it to vanish too.

since it makes you wonder why the weapon never got stolen/moved in the first place for near a thousand year if bandits can occupy the tomb at all in FE6.

the second point should be easier tho. all the problem are interpersonal relationship problem that support bring with it. not exactly the base plot or lore that it contradict, more like whether the scriptwriter has the balls to risk fans ire by canonizing pair or not. but i think blazing actually rare FE that actually make some S pairing actually "fail" in ending, as in like each other but doesnt end up as couple. so only Roy and Lilina that obviously impacted by canonizing ship i think. 

not sure if theres luck involved but Roy mother not referred in game seems intentional.

She is not ignored completely. There is this exchange, though it doesn't really say anything about her other than she loved Eliwood.

• Lilina: Marcus, what kind of couple were Lord Eliwood and his wife?
• Marcus: Well, my lady, when the two were youths, they were such a happy pair that just looking at them would cheer one up. The people of Pherae were truly happy for them.
• Lilina: Wow... That's nice...
• Marcus: Lord Eliwood loved his wife deeply. And one night...before the two became engaged, Lord Eliwood suddenly disappeared from the castle. When he returned to his love three days later, he presented her with a beautiful white flower which only grows in the snowy highlands. It was the flower which she loved the most.
• Lilina: Lord Eliwood is so...romantic. Sigh... Now look at Roy...

 

16 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

FF13 sold extremely well, to be fair (unlike PoR). So the methods in which they underperformed are quite different. I'd say the way PoR performed poorly is much more likely to result in a game not having a sequel, so I second @AnonymousSpeed that RD existing at all is proof the devs really wanted to make a sequel to PoR, because it would have been better financial sense for them to cut their losses and make a new game entirely.

Path of Radiance success is pretty much confirmed as immaterial,  as the interview I linked earlier shows that they had begun work on Radiant Dawn pretty much as soon as Path of Radiance had been release, before it had a chance to succeed or fail on sales.

[joevar]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

She is not ignored completely. There is this exchange, though it doesn't really say anything about her other than she loved Eliwood.

neat, i didnt remember that exchange at all.

then again its classic good-upbringing-Protag parent. nothing that describe a particular character

54 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

FF13 sold extremely well, to be fair (unlike PoR). So the methods in which they underperformed are quite different. I'd say the way PoR performed poorly is much more likely to result in a game not having a sequel, so I second @AnonymousSpeed that RD existing at all is proof the devs really wanted to make a sequel to PoR, because it would have been better financial sense for them to cut their losses and make a new game entirely.

you're right, i just checked. maybe its a case where people just blindly buy something because it has "known brand" attached to it? or because it has Female protag for a change? (people dont know or cant access FF6 at the time)

and evidently the second and third part did bombed hard. 2nd part sold less than half sales of 1st, with 3rd part even less; sold only as much as 1/3 of the 2nd. despite claims everywhere that the sequel has many improvement

[Acacia Sgt]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Empty is certainly a good word for it. The most age felt quite promising, showing one continent in one game and then focusing on the entire world in the second. But then there's basically as much content on that first continent than the rest of the world put together. And you basically spend your time exploring that empty world trying to find the plot. At one point the "villains" even show up asking if you've forgotten that you actually have a specific mission to accomplish XD

I think in a way that's the point. Because of the sealing of Alchemy, the people of Weyard are going through a Dark Age. Tolbi is the only country that exists while everything else is scattered city-states, with ruins of lost civilizations everywhere. Though, well, it "helped" that bug chunks of the world map were the oceans too. Also, the first game covered almost all of Angara and northern Gondowan. As in, Eurasia and North Africa. So that too played that it's the most populated and "civilized" part of the world in ancient times. Plot wise since neither Felix and Piers spoke up, it made sense the party just seemingly wandered aimlessly, trying to find a way to reach the Western Sea, and seek out those ancient goodies to get stronger. There's also the possible plot readjustment, since we might've have been able to fully free the Alhafran Ship much earlier, thus kicking off the search of the Trident Pieces earlier, thus giving the Eastern Sea an actual tangible goal.

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

She is not ignored completely. There is this exchange, though it doesn't really say anything about her other than she loved Eliwood.

8 minutes ago, joevar said:

neat, i didnt remember that exchange at all.

then again its classic good-upbringing-Protag parent. nothing that describe a particular character

Well, it also tells us Roy's mother loved a type of Ilian flower above all else.

It's not a coincidence then that two of Eliwood's three choices are Ilian.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I think in a way that's the point. Because of the sealing of Alchemy, the people of Weyard are going through a Dark Age. Tolbi is the only country that exists while everything else is scattered city-states, with ruins of lost civilizations everywhere. Though, well, it "helped" that bug chunks of the world map were the oceans too. Also, the first game covered almost all of Angara and northern Gondowan. As in, Eurasia and North Africa. So that too played that it's the most populated and "civilized" part of the world in ancient times. Plot wise since neither Felix and Piers spoke up, it made sense the party just seemingly wandered aimlessly, trying to find a way to reach the Western Sea, and seek out those ancient goodies to get stronger. There's also the possible plot readjustment, since we might've have been able to fully free the Alhafran Ship much earlier, thus kicking off the search of the Trident Pieces earlier, thus giving the Eastern Sea an actual tangible goal.

True, it does feel somewhat like the point...But still, the game isn't giving me something to properly latch on to. Even with an empty world you can actually have something to do in it. But most of the things you do in the Lost Age, particularly in the middle part, are exploring dungeons to get artefacts to go to other dungeons to get to other dungeons with nary a glimpse of Isaach or the "bad guys" (whatever their tribe is called, can't remember). The first game at leasr had some intensity to it as you were trying to track them down and saw evidence of what they were doing. I'd say you're right that there was some plot restructuring and that the ship would have some after Venus Lighthouse otherwise, but I feel that not only because it makes sense, but also because the trip down to darkest Africa and rescuing Piers feels like significantly more effort went into it than the rest of the game, sans the ending (though even that to some extent,  it kind of gets bizarrely rushed with you going to Mars light house immediately after Jupiter). After they had their rewrite out if the way they just kind of went back to the original plan, but then extended it a bit because the east sea adventures now had to take up a whole second game.

But this isn't a Golden Sun thread and those games don't even have route splits, so I don't think I'll say much more on the topic last we derail.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Jotari

[AnonymousSpeed]

Whoops I am forgetti again.

10 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

He said FF13, as in Final Fantasy 13. Probably the most hated part of the franchise (even though 15 is worse).

I am a reading comprehension. Thank you.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm still not sure what specific developer comments you're referring to inregaeds t0 that game. It seems like they were setting up a sequel though, until the game bombed. But considering the teaser at the end was the same as the very first plot point that was forgotten five hours into the game, I'm not sure they even knew what they were doing. Alas we'll probably never see a Dark Dawn follow up, so a fourth instalment of the series that is actually good rather than just charming and we have the oppertunity to kick Alex's ass will have to exist purely in our imaginations. 

Yeah, but that's kinda the thing. I somehow doubt Golden Sun ever had any plans of any kind for what to do with Alex. He's like a carrot at the end of a stick, except I imagine he's a big fan of eggs.

[kratoscar2008]

On 8/14/2022 at 1:12 AM, Florete said:

Well, yeah. Multiple paths is just one potentially-appealing piece of the game, so who's to say it was any kind of big factor in the game doing well? Avatars and player character romance are features that have proven popular not just in FE but in many series, so I think it's obvious that those drew people to the game. But as far as having multiple paths, I'd sooner believe it was Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude themselves who drew people in more than having a (supposedly) unique path for each. Do the same thing but in a more Sacred Stones-style and what do you think happens?

Note that I'm not saying I think the path options didn't help the game at all, I just doubt that they were so impactful that it's something the majority of players actively want in more games. Just because Three Houses was a success doesn't mean everything it did was popular with the people who played it.

Completely forgot about this thread lol.

I dont think any of the Three Lords would be popular without they being the main lord of their path. In fact its the paths that make them become who they are, specially if we have the whole you as the avatar being an important piece in their growth (The same magic that has made Persona popular as well). I dont think Ephraim or Eirika are particularly super popular either.

Considering how heavy the multipaths are I do think its one of the reasons of its success. I mean its exactly the main selling point and what its the core of its structure.

 

 

[kratoscar2008]

On 8/14/2022 at 2:43 AM, Samz707 said:

How would you know the majority want it? 

If FE3H had fixed Classes, Edelgard would still have Axes since that's her unique class, FE Does change weapons which classes use, so it's not impossible that say, Annette's late-game promotion would give her an axe for Crusher and Echinda is in FE6 as a Female Hero, an Axe using Class.

Didn't Fates Paths be one of the most commonly complained about things of the game? 

This logic of "game is successful so every single thing from it worked" isn't..quite how it works, Fates probably has a not in-signifficant chunk of people who got it because they liked Awakening then proceeded to hate everything about it.

For the most obvious big example of this, due to a mix of people enjoying past games/a marketing push, Resident Evil 6 is the the best selling Resident Evil game of all time, it's also commonly regarded as one of, if not the worst game in the series (Also actually kinda did multiple paths too, though more following a different duo of characters through the same events.), and aside from somtimes the combat (which even then is only good in the Mercenaries mode, the main campaigns are not actually designed to make good use of it.), almost every single thing about that game is hated.

Or then you have the Tomb Raider Reboots, which for anyone unfamiliar, basically threw everything out and made a generic uncharted clone but sold well due to a big marketing push and how the general audiences prefer just shooting things in the face instead of puzzles/exploration, they basically completely threw out anything that appealed to older fans. (It'd be like if FE became exclusively Warriors titles.) 

And finally, Driv3r, while I enjoy it, it is a buggy unfinished rushed out mess, it also sold better than any previous Driver title due to a high marketing push, including an actual scandal with bribing gaming magazines with early reviews in exchange for high scores despite the fact it is one of the more infamously bad games out there, so yes it sold the best compared to the previous 2 games, but most of the new additions were criticised for clearly being unfinished, to the point where when the series had a brief resurgence with Driver San Francisco, part of it's praise was ditching all of Driv3r's additions.

Arguing that a game was good/certain mechanics should return entirely because of sales really ignores the entire concept of people getting a game due to hype then hating it, as far as sales are concerned, they have it so good, there are plenty of games that sold well due to hype/appealing more to the casual audience in ways that make the experience worse for long-running fans, again, Driv3r/Resi 6 were (and still is in Resi 6's case) the best selling games in the series but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who actually says they're the best in the series or wants a ton of elements from those games to return.

Looking at those games review scores most of them seems to align with the fanbase's evaluation of them (Though I dont remember TR being that devisive)

Meanwhile by the reactions you get of people on FE forums regarding Fates you would think its a dumpster fire not woth playing but Metacritic shows that its highly rated barring Revelations (Kinda shots my everyone likes golden paths argument lol) . So we have an entry that sold great and outside the fanbase (Which has too many biased users against it) its rated highly which Houses then proceeded to repeat except with less vitriol from the FE community).

That said chances are that the split paths could go the way of the child units, except for the next entry as it would be a waste to not improve on Houses mechanics (I dont think Hopes count, thats a musou).

[Samz707]

On 9/1/2022 at 5:07 AM, kratoscar2008 said:

Looking at those games review scores most of them seems to align with the fanbase's evaluation of them (Though I dont remember TR being that devisive)

Meanwhile by the reactions you get of people on FE forums regarding Fates you would think its a dumpster fire not woth playing but Metacritic shows that its highly rated barring Revelations (Kinda shots my everyone likes golden paths argument lol) . So we have an entry that sold great and outside the fanbase (Which has too many biased users against it) its rated highly which Houses then proceeded to repeat except with less vitriol from the FE community).

That said chances are that the split paths could go the way of the child units, except for the next entry as it would be a waste to not improve on Houses mechanics (I dont think Hopes count, thats a musou).

 

I think you could probably use all of 3H's mechanics without split paths at least, you have Gambits, Battalions and Adjunctants and all the other non-split path mechanics that could probably be used without it. 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Samz707

[The PaperCrafter]

Nope. Never again. It's pretty obvious route splits cause resources to be wasted.

[kratoscar2008]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:37 AM, Samz707 said:

 

I think you could probably use all of 3H's mechanics without split paths at least, you have Gambits, Battalions and Adjunctants and all the other non-split path mechanics that could probably be used without it. 

 

You could be right. Maybe with 3 Hopes they will end muli paths. We will see. 

[DefyingFates]

As others have said, I think split paths are interesting, but they can be quite exhausting to both develop and play, so a mix of both styles may be the way to go moving forward. I'm curious how complex a game IS can make if they put all of their resources they split during 3H's development into a single route, for example. Engage didn't start off showing an obvious way to split the story in its reveal, so maybe it'll be a single route game too.

[Humanoid]

Birthright and Conquest was a split executed reasonably well I thought. It juuuuust about justified being sold as two campaigns. The gameplay feel between them was somewhat different, a large proportion of the playable cast was different, and even though the writing was pants-on-head stupid, it was at least distinct beyond the tutorial section of the game. I absolutely regret buying and playing Revelations though, which did everything wrong and offered nothing new other than some ephemeral warm fuzzies for not killing any of your family.

As for Three Houses - well, I don't even get to evaluate the route splits because that game was so padded out that even one route (Claude) was borderline too much for me. I had to take a month-long break about three-quarters into the game because I'd simply had enough of it, and I eventually forced myself to come back and finish it. Two years later and despite the existence of three other routes *plus* DLC, I haven't even considered ever going back. I'm not saying I regret buying it, but they really stretched themselves thin there. Just split it once, just before the timeskip, or don't do it at all.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Humanoid said:

Birthright and Conquest was a split executed reasonably well I thought. It juuuuust about justified being sold as two campaigns. The gameplay feel between them was somewhat different, a large proportion of the playable cast was different, and even though the writing was pants-on-head stupid, it was at least distinct beyond the tutorial section of the game. I absolutely regret buying and playing Revelations though, which did everything wrong and offered nothing new other than some ephemeral warm fuzzies for not killing any of your family.

Well at least Revelations had distinct game design too...just a shame said game design was to try and use the Fire Emblem engine to make some kind of gimmicky puzzle game with their obsession with sliding platforms and warp tiles.