Legendary and Mythic Heroes - Veronica and Embla

[Diovani Bressan]

1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

How hard is that to do?

Both begin to search for a match in Book 3 Prior at the same time. Doesn't take long to find each other. If you find randoms, then just surrender and try again. There aren't many people doing Duels, so it's pretty easy to match your friend.

During the battle, I usually get 10 points by killing some of my friend's units, and then I surrender so my friend gets the 20. It becomes 20 and 30 during weekends, because of the extra favor bonus.

After a match, you can't find your friend for 30 minutes. After 30 min, you can find each other again.

Edit:

About the banner, I plan to get a Embla since I like to have a copy of each Mythic Hero to use as bonus unit. I hope I get her before the spark.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Diovani Bressan

[DefyingFates]

10 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

During the battle, I usually get 10 points by killing some of my friend's units, and then I surrender so my friend gets the 20. It becomes 20 and 30 during weekends, because of the extra favor bonus.

After a match, you can't find your friend for 30 minutes. After 30 min, you can find each other again.

Ah, gotcha. I can see how the points would add up after a while too. Interesting!

[Tybrosion]

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not sure "try" is the correct verb to describe me throwing Valentine Lucina and Valentine Robin at everything and surrendering if they die.

That's still more effort compared to me. I've made a living of just hanging around in Tier 18 (don't ask why 18 in particular, because I don't know why either) and surrendering against any defense team that at least looks semi-competent. I also don't touch AR until Saturday or Sunday at earliest (usually the latter due to laziness).

And for the cherry on top, my own defense setup has none of the standard defense structures and includes just a single Fallen Edelgard......that is completely unequipped.

[Humanoid]

47 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

It becomes 20 and 30 during weekends, because of the extra favor bonus.

Huh, I had no idea this was a thing, so I went out and tested it.

 

...it's not the weekend. I'm an idiot.

 

But yeah, I avoided winning any SD matches at all to ensure I only ever got matched up against AI, and ground my way up to 700 points back in the day, 1-10 points at a time. If those points turn into 11-20 per loss, then that's absolutely huge in terms of exploiting this, uh, exploit.

[Diovani Bressan]

3 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Huh, I had no idea this was a thing, so I went out and tested it.

It was recently added. I believe they announced it in the last FEH channel we had.

During weekends, just by scoring in any Favor Battle, you get +10 Favor at the end (for a max of 30 Favor per battle). But you need to score something, being a kill or just some points from the Capture Area.

[Mercakete]

Dang, both new units are red. I wouldn't mind getting Veronica, but my real aim is Embla. I do want Dagr, and though I wouldn't mind more copies of Hel and Ymir (ironic), I don't have the orbs to go for 2 colors, I don't think. So, pulling red and hoping for the emaciated bat beast lady!

(Also, dang, Beast Agility is crazy. Part of me wants to get a bunch of those so I can have better mixed teams, especially since Altina goes well with beast units. I've just been having dragons be the buffer between her and the beasts.)

Edit: Oh, right, and Veronica not being an ascended hero is weird. Still, IS saying "this is definitely what we're doing thematically with this type of unit" and then  throwing that out the window isn't atypical of IS.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Mercakete

[Ice Dragon]

32 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Edit: Oh, right, and Veronica not being an ascended hero is weird. Still, IS saying "this is definitely what we're doing thematically with this type of unit" and then  throwing that out the window isn't atypical of IS.

All of our Heroes Ascended Heroes so far have come from Tempest Trials stories, so I don't think it should really be out of left field that the main story characters are still going into the Legendary/Mythic pool.

And even more so since this is the first time we're getting a "normal" version of Veronica.

[Mercakete]

7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

And even more so since this is the first time we're getting a "normal" version of Veronica.

You don't count Brave Veronica?

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

You don't count Brave Veronica?

It's Veronica in a Bruno-inspired outfit, so no.

The only "normal" versions of Veronica right now (that are named "Veronica" and not "Thrasir") are her enemy-only green tome infantry version, her Legendary version, and the Embla-possessed versions of each.

[Tybrosion]

In regards to stats, assuming Embla has the spread that she did as an enemy only unit (which seems to be the case based on trailer), then these are the super asset(s) and super flaw(s) that she will have [SPOILERS]:

Spoiler

Super Asset(s): Atk, Res
Super Flaw(s): HP, Spd

And as for Veronica, these would be her stats if she also keeps her enemy only stat line [SPOILERS]:

Spoiler

16/12/12/4/3/47 [Base Stats]

38/42/45/19/25/169 [Max Stats]

Super Asset(s): Atk
Super Flaw(s): HP, Spd, Res

 

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's Veronica in a Bruno-inspired outfit, so no.

CYL Veronica is also not the same one from the main story. She specifically has castle dialogue where she says that she wants to meet this world's Veronica.

[Namero]

That C skill of Embla’s feels like the single biggest mistake made by any particular skill thus far. It would be one thing if it had a condition (like only affecting slower units), only affected units in the same column/row, or just affected the closest unit(s), but nope, it just covers half the map with no condition. That just single handedly throws away two of the only three viable AR strategies (save tanking and super ally support) making Galeforce the only viable option left. Expect to see the return of cavalry lines with 2 of Embla behind them as the new norm everywhere in Light/Dark season. At this point, they either need to add yet another extra space to put structures at the bottom of the map, allow you to customize structures individually for every individual team you make, or introduce a level 2 Safety Fence with a much bigger AOE. 
Save skills were the only thing that made armor units worth using, and just like that they’re even more useless now. Feels like having a huge chunk of your unit investment just instantly flushed down the toilet. As somebody that immediately +10ed both Halloween Duma and Rearmed Robin just because I like trying out save strategies, I’m not going to feel motivated to invest in such units any longer (which means way less money from me for them). They better hurry and introduce a counter to the affect of that C skill soon, be it more ways to inflict false start or some new “divine protection” bonus the negates all non-stat penalties on a unit, otherwise I might not only be spending way less but even consider quitting since having the game becoming nothing more than “sweep on turn 1 or lose” or “who hits with a nuke first wins” will make me bored out of my mind. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Namero

[Othin]

Huh, I've been at about 100 Favor for a while but I'll have to do some grinding now that it's easier.

For Aether Raids, I've been maintaining T21 with auto-dispatch ever since I stopped going for Vault of Heaven a year ago.

[Rinco]

Just watch Tier 4 Save skills that can't be stopped coming on the next fallen banner or something like that.

[XRay]

14 minutes ago, Rinco said:

Just watch Tier 4 Save skills that can't be stopped coming on the next fallen banner or something like that.

Tier 4 Save skills is going to cover 3 spaces away and has Omnibreaker.

[Mercakete]

1 hour ago, Tybrosion said:

CYL Veronica is also not the same one from the main story. She specifically has castle dialogue where she says that she wants to meet this world's Veronica.

To be fair, every hero we summon is from another world, according to the game's lore, so I don't really see her commenting on that as much of a point. Even getting mythic Askr, he talks about the world he came from vs this Askr (country.)

Anyway, I have a better understanding of what you consider "normal" now, so thanks for the clarification, @Ice Dragon.

[Ice Dragon]

30 minutes ago, Rinco said:

Just watch Tier 4 Save skills that can't be stopped coming on the next fallen banner or something like that.

We've had nullification skill effects for a very long time now and still no skill effects that ignore nullification, and I don't see that happening ever.

At best, we'll get skill effects that nullify non-stat Penalties or a status effect that protects a unit from being hit with Penalties. More likely, we'll just get more sources of False Start.

In the extremely unlikely chance that they retroactively change the effect of Undefended, I think the best implementation would be to make it prevent Savior from activating from more than one space away, as there is at least some counter-play against that.

 

Whatever their solution will be, there's a decent likelihood it'll come on the Winter banner since it traditionally has a focus on armors. That said, we'll have to see if Aether Raids even survives long enough to get to the Winter banner before everyone left gives up on it.

[Diovani Bressan]

I hope we get access to others sources of False Start. We only have 3 sources of ways to inflict Isolation on foes: Bride Fjorm's Gjallarbrú, Mila's Turnwheel and Summer Hilda's Duo Skill. Each one being released one year apart of each other: Fjorm in 2019, Mila in 2020 and Hilda in 2021. We also have 3 ways to inflict Isolation on our own units, being Legendary Chrom's To Change Fate!, Brave Chrom's A Fate Changed!, and Legendary Ninian's Dragon's Dance... but that doesn't matter since it does't affect foes.

[Mercakete]

Honestly, regarding skills, the main thing I'm excited about is Beast Agility. Even if there's a version that only prevents the transform condition on beast weapons, it just makes Tormod getting something like that built into his tome or whatever possible, whenever it is he comes to Heroes. It'd be sad if he couldn't feasibly work with beast units (and it wouldn't make much sense, either, given his role in his home games.)

[Sunwoo]

Again, purely on a story basis, I am peeved that Veronica is not an Ascended unit or part of the Askr group in an upgraded version of her green base self. If we are now allowing normal human characters from Embla and Askr to be legendary, then Alfonse at the least has more right to get a legendary version of himself before Veronica. You know, since canonically he does everything the summoner does not. And unless they decide to break pattern, we're more likely to get Ascended Ash instead of Alfonse or Sharena, which would make them the only royals to be completely fucked over by not being blessed by their deity.

Voice actor problems aside, this isn't exactly a new problem. How long are they expecting us to use base unmergeable Askr trio with shitty refines when they still expect us to use them for content?

[Ice Dragon]

24 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

If we are now allowing normal human characters from Embla and Askr to be legendary,

We've had normal human characters from Nifl be Legendary from literally the very beginning. What makes Embla any different?

 

25 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

How long are they expecting us to use base unmergeable Askr trio with shitty refines when they still expect us to use them for content?

They've clearly suggested that you should pull for Rearmed Lif to give Alfonse his Arcane Eljudnir. Arcane Downfall is also coincidentally conveniently well suited for Anna.

(I've also been using the Askr trio with no investment other than giving all of them Reposition, and haven't had too much issue using them for quests, though I occasionally have to use convoluted setups to get Anna to kill her mark due to her godawful Atk stat.)

[Sunwoo]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

We've had normal human characters from Nifl be Legendary from literally the very beginning. What makes Embla any different?

Askr and Embla have always been presented as equals and in the same "world". It's been a while since book 2, but I'm pretty sure the party had to pass through a magic gate to get to Nifl, to which I've always assumed it wasn't in the same realm as Askr and Embla. And therefore, it was okay if they were a little different from Askr and Embla, because they were not in the same real.

Also, whether it counts for anything or not, the Nifl and Muspell groups are just weird. Fjorm, Gunnthra, and Hrid are legendary while Ylgr are not. None of the Muspell characters are legendary, not even their deity. And Nifl isn't mythic or legendary even though three of her descendants are legendary. If Fjorm and her siblings being legendaries were due to some "early installment weirdness" issues, I could believe that. Legendary Veronica doesn't really have that.

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

They've clearly suggested that you should pull for Rearmed Lif to give Alfonse his Arcane Eljudnir. Arcane Downfall is also coincidentally conveniently well suited for Anna.

(I've also been using the Askr trio with no investment other than giving all of them Reposition, and haven't had too much issue using them for quests, though I occasionally have to use convoluted setups to get Anna to kill her mark due to her godawful Atk stat.)

So basically they get Arcane weapons than anyone else with the right weapon type can also inherit, with no precedent for Ascended or Legendaries and to be stuck forever in their base form and a few seasonal units. Yay.

And yes, I get that it's possible to get the Askr trio to do bare minimum kills without a lot of investment. It's still dumb. Anna is the biggest load and I remember some BHBs of ridiculously broken later book units require more setups.

[Jave]

34 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Askr and Embla have always been presented as equals and in the same "world". It's been a while since book 2, but I'm pretty sure the party had to pass through a magic gate to get to Nifl, to which I've always assumed it wasn't in the same realm as Askr and Embla. And therefore, it was okay if they were a little different from Askr and Embla, because they were not in the same real.

Also, whether it counts for anything or not, the Nifl and Muspell groups are just weird. Fjorm, Gunnthra, and Hrid are legendary while Ylgr are not. None of the Muspell characters are legendary, not even their deity. And Nifl isn't mythic or legendary even though three of her descendants are legendary. If Fjorm and her siblings being legendaries were due to some "early installment weirdness" issues, I could believe that. Legendary Veronica doesn't really have that.

So basically they get Arcane weapons than anyone else with the right weapon type can also inherit, with no precedent for Ascended or Legendaries and to be stuck forever in their base form and a few seasonal units. Yay.

And yes, I get that it's possible to get the Askr trio to do bare minimum kills without a lot of investment. It's still dumb. Anna is the biggest load and I remember some BHBs of ridiculously broken later book units require more setups.

I just don't think there's any way to "fix" the Askr trio without heavily bending the rules. It's possible to make them good, but the amount of investment you have to put on them is crazy high, and the whole "but I could invest on better units for better results" argument is a problem that will always be there. Releasing them as a Legendary unit worked for Veronica because OG Vero was never playable, but releasing Legendary Alfonse won't make OG Alfonse problems go away. It feels the only way to make them good on their own right is to re-refine their weapons, which I really don't see happening.

At the very least, I feel they should let you get them as Grail units so they have access to the All Stats +4 from the merges. I honestly don't think there's any excuse for not having that by now.

Although part of me kinda likes the challenge of using them for BHB quests without any investment.

 

[Ice Dragon]

9 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Askr and Embla have always been presented as equals and in the same "world". It's been a while since book 2, but I'm pretty sure the party had to pass through a magic gate to get to Nifl, to which I've always assumed it wasn't in the same realm as Askr and Embla. And therefore, it was okay if they were a little different from Askr and Embla, because they were not in the same real.

Also, whether it counts for anything or not, the Nifl and Muspell groups are just weird. Fjorm, Gunnthra, and Hrid are legendary while Ylgr are not. None of the Muspell characters are legendary, not even their deity. And Nifl isn't mythic or legendary even though three of her descendants are legendary. If Fjorm and her siblings being legendaries were due to some "early installment weirdness" issues, I could believe that. Legendary Veronica doesn't really have that.

And why does not coming from a different world count as a large enough difference to disqualify a character from being a Legendary Hero? The fact that Veronica is a human main character that isn't a member of the Askr trio should be more than enough to qualify her as a Legendary Hero. She has at least cleared the bar by being more involved with the main story than either of Gunnthra or Hrid.

Furthermore, none of these arguments explain why Veronica would at all make sense as an Ascended Hero based on existing patterns. All of the existing Heroes-original Ascended Heroes come from story arcs occurring after the events of the corresponding Book in the main story told through Tempest Trials, where the character was already previously released as a summonable unit during (or soon after) the events of the main story.

The only thing Veronica has that connects her with the existing Ascended Heroes is the naming scheme of her weapon, but Ganglot's weapon has the same naming scheme and Ganglot also isn't an Ascended Hero.

Veronica has significantly more in common with existing Legendary Heroes than with existing Ascended Heroes.

 

And I've said this before and I'll say this again: Whether or not a character qualifies as a Legendary, Mythic, Ascended, etc. Hero is a qualification, not a mandate. Just because Nifl, Muspell, and Ymir obviously qualify as Mythic Heroes doesn't mean they have to be Mythic Heroes. Just because Laevatein, Laegjarn, and Surtr make sense to qualify as Legendary Heroes doesn't mean they have to be Legendary Heroes.

A character being released as a "normal" Hero is not evidence against a categorization; it's simply lack of evidence for a categorization. The bar for how Legendary a character has to be to qualify as a Legendary Hero is set by the least-Legendary Legendary Hero, not by the most-Legendary normal Hero.

 

1 minute ago, Jave said:

I just don't think there's any way to "fix" the Askr trio without heavily bending the rules.

I would not be surprised at all if they decided to bend the rules to make a way to upgrade the Askr trio unlocked by reaching some climactic story event that requires them to power up.

They already have a means of modifying a unit's artwork and stats through Resplendent Heroes and adding new skills to a unit through all sorts of methods, and I don't think it would be stretch if they implemented a way to give the Askr trio additional "unit-type tags" like Legendary status or some new-fangled unit type on top of stat and skill updates upon reaching a specific point in the story.

[Othin]

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I would not be surprised at all if they decided to bend the rules to make a way to upgrade the Askr trio unlocked by reaching some climactic story event that requires them to power up.

They already have a means of modifying a unit's artwork and stats through Resplendent Heroes and adding new skills to a unit through all sorts of methods, and I don't think it would be stretch if they implemented a way to give the Askr trio additional "unit-type tags" like Legendary status or some new-fangled unit type on top of stat and skill updates upon reaching a specific point in the story.

Hmm. Free Resplendents unlocked through the story seems like a simple method, and there's also precedent for adding new weapons and non-weapon skills to existing units. So they could do either or both of those things, although personally I haven't been particularly bothered by the lack of it.

[Lemmy]

I kept the original Askr group at 4 stars, probably wouldn't have leveled them up if it wasn't for grand hero revivals.

But I am one of those people that loves savaging blowing maps to oblivion, as long as the trio can deal 1 damage with default skills and ally buffs I am fine.

I still think they'll eventually do a time skip with upgraded units if only for the final chapter.