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Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)


Sunwoo
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Micaiah or Nohrmui?  

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  1. 1. Who was the better character?



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I was always under the impression Micaiah's foresight was given to her by Yune being around. I imagine she no longer has the ability at the end of the game, after Yune leaves.

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Problem here is that even IS sort of forgets this. None of the other herons are affected by the chaos itself like Micaiah is in the story. Even Leanne, the heron that seems to be most fragile and non-chaotic of the three siblings. Micaiah is, but Reyson, the main one that is in the fray of all the chaos, is not. Sure they sort of mention this with a "you're used to this now," but considering that Micaiah has been part of a resistance since Begnion took over (so at least 3 years or so), and has constantly been fighting, you'd think she'd be more used to it, and less affected by it than any of the herons. Reyson didn't join the Crimean army until more than half of the fighting was over, and Ike's supports with him imply that this illness just makes him (them) feel bad. There isn't anything about interfering with powers.

From PoR, chapter 20 base conversation:

Reyson: We of the heron clan... If we choose to, we can read the thoughts of others.

Ike: Seriously?

Reyson: However, this power is only available to us in a calm and peaceful environment. Here, is this desperate maelstrom of chaotic emotion, it avails me not. Energy here is warped and distorted.

It should also be noted that, at the point Micaiah lost her powers, the war was getting so bloody and chaotic that all it took for Yune and Ashera to wake up was one major battle.

Both Micaiah and Corrin are their respective leaders (again, even point)

I'd argue that this point is in Micaiah's favor. She actually has reasons (she's loved by Daein's citizens, has a proven track record of beating the odds and there's no real other viable candidates) as to why she's leader of the Dawn Brigade and later Daein's military, while Corrin's accomplishments before the war with Hoshido kicks into high gear are nowhere near as impressive, and certainly aren't enough to justify him being commander of Nohr's army over Xander.

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I'd argue that this point is in Micaiah's favor. She actually has reasons (she's loved by Daein's citizens, has a proven track record of beating the odds and there's no real other viable candidates) as to why she's leader of the Dawn Brigade and later Daein's military, while Corrin's accomplishments before the war with Hoshido kicks into high gear are nowhere near as impressive, and certainly aren't enough to justify him being commander of Nohr's army over Xander.

That and Pelleas personally likes her because he mistakenly believes her to be a Spirit Charmer like him, as well as seeing her as a kindred spirit as someone who was living the live of a commoner just to suddenly find themselves burdened with responsibility for the entire country. Besides, Pelleas is the guy who is stupid enough to sign a contract with his blood without even reading it. He is a good guy but he has poor judgement, so I'm not surprised he promoted her.

Edit: Also, let's not forget that it's flatout stated that she is in no way suited to be a general and that she is was initially merely put into a leadership position in order to serve as a figurehead. Part 1 basically takes a different spin at the story of Ike and Elincia in PoR by having this fairy tale story of a lost heir and their hero exploited in order to manipulate the people of Daein and to install an easily manipulatable puppet ruler.

Edited by BrightBow
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It should also be noted that, at the point Micaiah lost her powers, the war was getting so bloody and chaotic that all it took for Yune and Ashera to wake up was one major battle.

Fair point, but her future sight wasn't "mind reading." And more specifically, that refers to simply "mind reading," not all of their powers. I can see where you're going with this however, so I'll concede that point as this could just be a botched translation at this point, and may have originally meant to say "all of our powers wane when in chaos." As pushing any further kind of skirts in "nitpicking" territory. But it is weird because herons are not actually affected by this.

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Micaiah Fan #93 reporting in. Let's get to 100, guys!

Every FE protagonist is a snowflake, some more than others. As much I disliked Micaiah as some kind of goddess at the end of the story, Nohrrin is so much worse.

I also loved that chapter that Micaiah attempts that fire trap in the canyon. The entire Begnion army with the Greil Mercenaries are marching to kill, pillage and raze your country, that has no way to fight such a force and people called her a war criminal? Seriously? Yeah, sure, put your 1000 soldiers in the open against dozens of thousands of the enemy and fight honorably!

Her love for Daein could have been done better, I agree. And while not exactly a great place to live, it's still her home. She has healing powers and magical fighting abilities. If a foreign country invaded yours and you realize you have healing powers, would you really just sit idly in your home? Or see a kid get shot and just run away?

Also, she is probably the only protagonist that doesn't face tank entire chapters and actually need other people's help and sits in the backlines as a supportive unit. She even tries to give power and authority to Pelleas, who is the king, while Nohrrin simply receives all the power on a silver plate from much more experienced people, who also all have more power and authority than him/her.

Edited by Lanko
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Micaiah Fan #93 reporting in. Let's get to 100, guys!

Every FE protagonist is a snowflake, some more than others. As much I disliked Micaiah as some kind of goddess at the end of the story, Nohrrin is so much worse.

I also loved that chapter that Micaiah attempts that fire trap in the canyon. The entire Begnion army with the Greil Mercenaries are marching to kill, pillage and raze your country, that has no way to fight such a force and people called her a war criminal? Seriously? Yeah, sure, put your 1000 soldiers in the open against dozens of thousands of the enemy and fight honorably!

Her love for Daein could have been done better, I agree. And while not exactly a great place to live, it's still her home. She has healing powers and magical fighting abilities. If a foreign country invaded yours and you realize you have healing powers, would you really just sit idly in your home? Or see a kid get shot and just run away?

Also, she is probably the only protagonist that doesn't face tank entire chapters and actually need other people's help and sits in the backlines as a supportive unit. She even tries to give power and authority to Pelleas, who is the king, while Nohrrin simply receives all the power on a silver plate from much more experienced people, who also all have more power and authority than him/her.

I'm not calling her a war criminal but otoh the Apostle's Army wasn't going to do anything bad to Daein, Daein pretty much started it and she whined like a bitch when Tibarn threatened to kill Sothe.
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I'm not calling her a war criminal but otoh the Apostle's Army wasn't going to do anything bad to Daein, Daein pretty much started it and she whined like a bitch when Tibarn threatened to kill Sothe.

But how was she supposed to know that, specially after what she saw happening in the streets? I would hardly believe someone wasn't going to do anything bad when they amass their entire army, get the world's most powerful mercenaries to join in as well and then march to my borders.

It remembered me of those Civ 5 games where I amass my arms at someone's borders, they complain, I say it's just a training exercise and proceed to invade the next turn.

The only thing Daein did was get back their own country. Not saying they should have been left alone after the war, that would be silly, but after the occupation forces were defeated, Sanaki, supposedly so much wiser than her age and surrounded by older senators and Sephiran, doesn't even bother sending messengers or diplomats to try to talk (If I remember right). Same thing for Ike.

Well, she loved Sothe. Of course that would affect her. Ike would also whine like a bitch if it was the BK doing the same to Mist, Soren or Ranulf. Curiously, Micaiah faltered with this, but Elincia didn't and accepted to sacrifice Lucia, but nobody calls that on her.

Edited by Lanko
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Well, she loved Sothe. Of course that would affect her. Ike would also whine like a bitch if it was the BK doing the same to Mist. Curiously, Micaiah faltered with this, but Elincia didn't and accepted to sacrifice Lucia, but nobody calls that on her.

But... Elincia is a queen? And she can't pick and choose which of her subordinates are worth sacrificing and which aren't? She made a logical choice, considering her position during Part 2.

Plus, Lucia (or Bastian) contacted the GM way beforehand as insurance.

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But... Elincia is a queen? And she can't pick and choose which of her subordinates are worth sacrificing and which aren't? She made a logical choice, considering her position during Part 2.

Plus, Lucia (or Bastian) contacted the GM way beforehand as insurance.

Oh no, I liked her decision. It was a nice contrast to how her character was presented, idealistic and naive, and then a serious, even dark way to mature and see how the power games are played.

But she would just put that rebel king on top of the wall and threaten to kill him too if they killed Lucia and then nothing would happen. But the game didn't allow her to stain her honor by doing that and she just had other people call Ike without her knowledge and who of course, arrives just in the nick of time. On a plus side, she kept that guy imprisoned, instead of some silly promise of redemption or loyalty.

For Micaiah, Daein would never be able to defeat that army in an open battle, so she prepared an ambush. It was also the most logical choice, but people call her on that as "war crime" pretty frequently. Or at least did back then. Well, we could say then she should have sacrificed Sothe and burned everyone there to keep Daein's position of freedom unharmed and strong, but her decision was a nice contrast to Elincia's, as she couldn't make the sacrifice, as Micaiah is Supreme General or something, and could also pick which subordinate was worth sacrificing or not.

Edited by Lanko
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Oh no, I liked her decision. It was a nice contrast to how her character was presented, idealistic and naive, and then a serious, even dark way to mature and see how the power games are played.

But she would just put that rebel king on top of the wall and threaten to kill him too if they killed Lucia and then nothing would happen. But the game didn't allow her to stain her honor by doing that and she just had other people call Ike without her knowledge and who of course, arrives just in the nick of time. On a plus side, she kept that guy imprisoned, instead of some silly promise of redemption or loyalty.

For Micaiah, Daein would never be able to defeat that army in an open battle, so she prepared an ambush. It was also the most logical choice, but people call her on that as "war crime" pretty frequently. Or at least did back then. Well, we could say then she should have sacrificed Sothe and burned everyone there to keep Daein's position of freedom unharmed and strong, but her decision was a nice contrast to Elincia's, as she couldn't make the sacrifice, as Micaiah is Supreme General or something, and could also pick which subordinate was worth sacrificing or not.

Oh, I get you. My bad.

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remember, burning people alive is only cool when robin does it, because he's your self insert!

Edit: same with canonicaly having white hair that nobody else has, or special powers that nobody else has, or..... well you can apply this edit to corrin too.

Edited by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai
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But how was she supposed to know that, specially after what she saw happening in the streets? I would hardly believe someone wasn't going to do anything bad when they amass their entire army, get the world's most powerful mercenaries to join in as well and then march to my borders.

It remembered me of those Civ 5 games where I amass my arms at someone's borders, they complain, I say it's just a training exercise and proceed to invade the next turn.

The only thing Daein did was get back their own country. Not saying they should have been left alone after the war, that would be silly, but after the occupation forces were defeated, Sanaki, supposedly so much wiser than her age and surrounded by older senators and Sephiran, doesn't even bother sending messengers or diplomats to try to talk (If I remember right). Same thing for Ike.

Well, she loved Sothe. Of course that would affect her. Ike would also whine like a bitch if it was the BK doing the same to Mist, Soren or Ranulf. Curiously, Micaiah faltered with this, but Elincia didn't and accepted to sacrifice Lucia, but nobody calls that on her.

Uh, no, Daein demanded that the Apostle surrender to them because they were allied to the Senate. Yeah, I know, blood pact, but Daein was still the aggressor. Daein also obviously can't be trusted with their own country, especially not after they are shown to remain violently racist. I also don't know what you mean regarding messengers; is this a specific incident? Regarding Sothe, of course it makes sense, but she acts like Tibarn is doing something evil for threatening to kill an enemy combatant. She was bringing morals into the battle after admitting morals didn't matter, is what I'm saying. It's hypocritical.

Edit: To be clear, I have no problems with the tactics Micaiah and Robin use. You gotta do what you gotta do. I just think it's silly to claim she has the moral high ground, especially when the game itself says she doesn't.

Edited by blah the Prussian
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On a side note, I find the whole ship burning thing in Awakening as something people point out. Then, I look over to my Dynasty Warriors collection, think of the battle of Chi Bi and go, "But what's the problem!!!111!??!!."

Just something a little funny.

To me...

I'm out.

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But how was she supposed to know that, specially after what she saw happening in the streets? I would hardly believe someone wasn't going to do anything bad when they amass their entire army, get the world's most powerful mercenaries to join in as well and then march to my borders.

It remembered me of those Civ 5 games where I amass my arms at someone's borders, they complain, I say it's just a training exercise and proceed to invade the next turn.

The only thing Daein did was get back their own country. Not saying they should have been left alone after the war, that would be silly, but after the occupation forces were defeated, Sanaki, supposedly so much wiser than her age and surrounded by older senators and Sephiran, doesn't even bother sending messengers or diplomats to try to talk (If I remember right). Same thing for Ike.

Well, she loved Sothe. Of course that would affect her. Ike would also whine like a bitch if it was the BK doing the same to Mist, Soren or Ranulf. Curiously, Micaiah faltered with this, but Elincia didn't and accepted to sacrifice Lucia, but nobody calls that on her.

IIRC, Sanaki was captured by that point. Sephiran was supposed to come out to evaluate the forces, but they ended up with Lekain instead. Given what we learn in Part 3, it's probably safe to say that the Senate has already taken control of Begnion and imprisoned both Sanaki and Sephiran.

Then, during Part 3, when the alliance is trying to march through Daein, their forces try to dodge around Daein and definitely do send messengers. In fact, on the lead-in to the bridge chapter, it's mentioned that Daein has already turned down something like the third messenger that the alliance has sent.

As far as the ambush goes, I was more annoyed by alliance making such a tactical blunder than Micaiah's employ of fire (that part was mostly notable for me because Sothe comments on how Micaiah doesn't like using those tactics). Why were they wandering through the canyon without anyone scouting out the ridges above? And why were they so packed together like that? That's pretty much just asking for it. Micaiah probably didn't even need the convoluted fire plan. Just collapse a section of the canyon and GG.

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Welp, this topic has convinced me to watch a walkthrough of the Tellius series (can't play it since I'm studying abroad) and refresh all of those three-year-old memories. Screw books, papers and finals, I've got video game dialogue to read!

No but seriously I always study hard but by all the gods in my pantheon I've got so much shit to do and I need some kind of outlet.

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Uh, no, Daein demanded that the Apostle surrender to them because they were allied to the Senate. Yeah, I know, blood pact, but Daein was still the aggressor. Daein also obviously can't be trusted with their own country, especially not after they are shown to remain violently racist. I also don't know what you mean regarding messengers; is this a specific incident? Regarding Sothe, of course it makes sense, but she acts like Tibarn is doing something evil for threatening to kill an enemy combatant. She was bringing morals into the battle after admitting morals didn't matter, is what I'm saying. It's hypocritical.

Edit: To be clear, I have no problems with the tactics Micaiah and Robin use. You gotta do what you gotta do. I just think it's silly to claim she has the moral high ground, especially when the game itself says she doesn't.

IIRC, Sanaki was captured by that point. Sephiran was supposed to come out to evaluate the forces, but they ended up with Lekain instead. Given what we learn in Part 3, it's probably safe to say that the Senate has already taken control of Begnion and imprisoned both Sanaki and Sephiran.

Then, during Part 3, when the alliance is trying to march through Daein, their forces try to dodge around Daein and definitely do send messengers. In fact, on the lead-in to the bridge chapter, it's mentioned that Daein has already turned down something like the third messenger that the alliance has sent.

As far as the ambush goes, I was more annoyed by alliance making such a tactical blunder than Micaiah's employ of fire (that part was mostly notable for me because Sothe comments on how Micaiah doesn't like using those tactics). Why were they wandering through the canyon without anyone scouting out the ridges above? And why were they so packed together like that? That's pretty much just asking for it. Micaiah probably didn't even need the convoluted fire plan. Just collapse a section of the canyon and GG.

Ah, I see, I didn't remember those parts, I'm taking this mostly off my head, since it was such a long time I last played this. You are right, messengers would be worthless because Daein was fighting because of the blood pact.

In that case, wouldn't the blood pact make Begnion be the aggressor? After all, it's a ticking bomb of a spell, one that can kill innocent civilians without any chance of healing or protection and put any king under the Senate's thumb, essentially ripping a nation from it's sovereignty. And they are forcing Daein to fight.

Of course, Daein's mobilization against it is much more tangible and visible, thus making it much easier for the others to point them as aggressors starting another war.

Even if they are shown to remain violently racist, a new leadership could change that. Although I don't remember Pelleas' stance on that. After WWII Germany and Japan were closely observed, of course, but they also had their own new leaders who worked to change the damage done by the previous ones.

Instead Begnion tricks Pelleas into a blood pact, and it was not even for the safety of the world. See Naesala and his tribe. Hardly the foundations that would help them change their behavior.

I really don't remember Micaiah giving moral lessons to Tibard regarding the Sothe scene. I'm pretty sure she just became desperate of losing him, nothing more, but I could be wrong.

Funny thing: Tibard managed to get Sothe, but not Micaiah, the leader, who was right by his side. Why Sothe and not Micaiah? We could say Micaiah would sacrifice herself, but how exactly did Tibard know that Micaiah would do that or that Sothe was that important to her? Maybe he had spies, but I don't remember.

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Uh, no, Daein demanded that the Apostle surrender to them because they were allied to the Senate. Yeah, I know, blood pact, but Daein was still the aggressor. Daein also obviously can't be trusted with their own country, especially not after they are shown to remain violently racist.

1( Daein under Ashnard was not that racist, considering that Ashnard valued might over all else.

2( The only evidence we have of Daein under Michaiah/Pelleas being racist is one guy during the bridge chapter and there being a bounty on laguz, which was probably being offered by Begnion or Pelleas being forced to offer it on their behalf, given the Begnion Senate's explicit desire to genocide all laguz.

Regarding Sothe, of course it makes sense, but she acts like Tibarn is doing something evil for threatening to kill an enemy combatant. She was bringing morals into the battle after admitting morals didn't matter, is what I'm saying. It's hypocritical.

No she doesn't. She's clearly distraught at what's happening, but all she does in that cutscene is reiterate that she can't stop fighting them. She doesn't mention a word about Tibarn afterwards.

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It's kind of complicated with the blood pact.

I find it to be like putting a hit on someone. You didn't directly kill anyone but you are just as guilty. So, yeah, I would say that the senators are the aggressors. I wouldn't say Begnion because Sanaki, the apostle, was against the senators and she had no idea about the BP; but she does have some fault. All the parties have a bit of fault for something or another that happens throughout the Tellius series.

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In that case, wouldn't the blood pact make Begnion be the aggressor? After all, it's a ticking bomb of a spell, one that can kill innocent civilians without any chance of healing or protection and put any king under the Senate's thumb, essentially ripping a nation from it's sovereignty. And they are forcing Daein to fight.

Of course, Daein's mobilization against it is much more tangible and visible, thus making it much easier for the others to point them as aggressors starting another war.

Even if they are shown to remain violently racist, a new leadership could change that. Although I don't remember Pelleas' stance on that. After WWII Germany and Japan were closely observed, of course, but they also had their own new leaders who worked to change the damage done by the previous ones.

Instead Begnion tricks Pelleas into a blood pact, and it was not even for the safety of the world. See Naesala and his tribe. Hardly the foundations that would help them change their behavior.

I really don't remember Micaiah giving moral lessons to Tibard regarding the Sothe scene. I'm pretty sure she just became desperate of losing him, nothing more, but I could be wrong.

Funny thing: Tibard managed to get Sothe, but not Micaiah, the leader, who was right by his side. Why Sothe and not Micaiah? We could say Micaiah would sacrifice herself, but how exactly did Tibard know that Micaiah would do that or that Sothe was that important to her? Maybe he had spies, but I don't remember.

Well, I believe Ike and Sanaki only started treat Daein as aggressors after Daein refused the messengers and repeatedly attacked them. I recall them reasoning out that the Senate must have something over Daein to force them to fight, but have no idea what it could be.

I don't think we're ever given any reason for Tibarn knowing about Sothe being so dear to Micaiah, but spies would probably be a safe assumption. I'd suggest Janaff and Ulki and their hax sensories, but then why wouldn't they have seen the ambush coming a mile away?

1( Daein under Ashnard was not that racist, considering that Ashnard valued might over all else.

2( The only evidence we have of Daein under Michaiah/Pelleas being racist is one guy during the bridge chapter and there being a bounty on laguz, which was probably being offered by Begnion or Pelleas being forced to offer it on their behalf, given the Begnion Senate's explicit desire to genocide all laguz.

No she doesn't. She's clearly distraught at what's happening, but all she does in that cutscene is reiterate that she can't stop fighting them. She doesn't mention a word about Tibarn afterwards.

Micaiah mentions that the troops seem pretty excited to go on a sub-human hunt. Seems pretty racist to me. I also recall a conversation with a character, but can't remember which... maybe Jill? Anyway, it's a conversation where the character in question refers to the laguz as laguz and someone tells them to be careful not to be overheard using the term by the general army. I also recall a conversation where Jill tells someone, probably Ike, about how in (at the time, Ashnard's, since I believe this is a PoR support) Daein, they used to go on sub-human hunts too. Also, don't forget that there was some concern among voiced among the DB characters about bringing laguz into the army and what the Daein regulars might think. Tormod and company also slip off early because despite helping with the liberation, they still don't feel welcome among the regulars.

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Micaiah mentions that the troops seem pretty excited to go on a sub-human hunt. Seems pretty racist to me. I also recall a conversation with a character, but can't remember which... maybe Jill? Anyway, it's a conversation where the character in question refers to the laguz as laguz and someone tells them to be careful not to be overheard using the term by the general army. I also recall a conversation where Jill tells someone, probably Ike, about how in (at the time, Ashnard's, since I believe this is a PoR support) Daein, they used to go on sub-human hunts too. Also, don't forget that there was some concern among voiced among the DB characters about bringing laguz into the army and what the Daein regulars might think. Tormod and company also slip off early because despite helping with the liberation, they still don't feel welcome among the regulars.

I am ashamed that I forgot all of that, considering I just read an LP of Radiant Dawn specifically for this thread.

I'd like to point out that the whole "hunting" thing during the war with the Laguz Alliance is pretty murky because, again, someone was offering a hefty bounty for every laguz corpse turned in. It's awful, but it being motivated purely by racism (though I doubt it wasn't fueled by at least a little) is dubious at best.

I think my point escaped from me a little, so allow me to clarify: whatever racism Daein did or didn't possess doesn't justify the claim that they were somehow unfit to be allowed sovereignty again, especially when compared to Begnion, who did actually attempt genocide against the laguz twice and actively kept a trade of laguz slaves going for centuries.

Edited by AzureSen
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Daein was very clearly implied to be very racist under Micaiah/Pelleas.

> At the end of part 1, Tormod says if they (him, Vika, Muarim) stick around too long they will start getting dirty looks, he says most Daeins stil loathe laguz. Micaiah also knows Izuka is behind the creation of Feral One's, and that he tried to turn Muarim into one, yet she says to them ''Nothing i say will convince you to break bread with Izuka?'' Like wtf, do something about him dammit..........

> When they join in on the war against the Laguz Alliance, she says ''with a few exceptions, the soldiers are excited about hunting the laguz.'' This should say enough...........

> When they are getting ready to pour oil down the canyon, a random soldier comes running and reports to Micaiah personally, and says the ''sub-humans'' defeated general ''random name'' and are headed this way.

So yeah, Daein is very much racist and i get the feeling Micaiah isn't even trying to change it.

side-note: What i also really dislike about that whole canyon thing, is when Ike and co. have Micaiah and co. surrounded and Sanaki orders to just let them go..........

Why???? So they can try to pour oil on you again?????? Her reasoning for this is also very stupid. ''I've seen enough bloodshed for one day''. Great, so just let them go so they can attack you again later(which they are saying in your face that they will) and cause more bloodshed.

Edited by BruceLee
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So yeah, Daein is very much racist and i get the feeling Micaiah isn't even trying to change it.

Micaiah and Daein were thrust into war the moment she rose to power (and she's not even the leader of the country). I think it's safe to say she didn't like the racism and would have made efforts to curb it after the war but she can't just snap her fingers and say "Okay everyone, let go of your long standing prejudices because I said so."

Also, it should be said that all Beorc nations (even Crimea) were racist to some degree, Daein just happened to be the worst.

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Also, it should be said that all Beorc nations (even Crimea) were racist to some degree, Daein just happened to be the worst.

This is shown back in Path of Radiance yeah, for clarification for the others, in the chapter Blood Runs Red, Ranulf's cover is blown by some Crimeans, and Ike and co have to step in because of their racism. Which in turn reveals them to the Daein soldiers.

Edited by Jedi
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Also, it should be said that all Beorc nations (even Crimea) were racist to some degree, Daein just happened to be the worst.

Hahahahaha

Who can forget those wonderful villagers back in chapter 10 of PoR who said that their king got what was coming to him because he was cooperating with laguz, and then turned in Ike and Elincia to the Daein soldiers?

Edited by Sunwoo
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