Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Actually Grassbridger/Shinori, so 15/2

[Refa]

16/1 or 15/2 seems awfully low...

[Refa]

Also, care to explain your suspicions on Shinori? From what I understand, he's leaning town at worst, so I'm just wondering if I misunderstood peoples' arguments regarding him from before.

[eclipse]

You know, when Eclipse unvoted me she suggested I didn't bother her anymore but still keeps making vague passes about me and I can't tell if she actually thinks I'm scummy or not and it's disconcerting. Manix mentioned that passing comment she made about my read on him and he had a good point on that.

Now you know how I feel when your case against me is "vibes". Impossible to argue for/against.

[Grace]

Yeah, I believe Weapons style of playing is a null tell at best.

WRT to Weapons, I don't like his argument against Boron, and he really hasn't made an effort to read anyone else. Leaning scum.

so you say weapons' playstyle is a nulltell, then you state he's scummy for... the same reasons, basically. can you clarify this or have I hit a nail?

Apparently Manix has been getting on my case for not having any real reads (true), but that seems like a flimsy case considering I can name a couple of other people who have the same problem. I'm not familiar with his meta though, and flimsy reasoning is not the exclusive domain of scum, so he's a null read atm.

so you missed the part where the case is also based around the fact that you promised a reread and content, and a vote. the content is half-fixed in this post (even then, it's not stellar), but yet there's still no vote. you can say whatever you want about people, but where's the vote to back it up?

it's not like you're going to accidentally hammer someone or make the day end early (unless you have a role that's like, gov which votes and ends the day as their only method, which i'm pretty sure hasn't existed as a fakeclaim), so back up whatever you're saying with a vote

[Grace]

holy cut

one moment

[Grace]

nope, nothing new that needs addressing

[euklyd]

Okay just caught up. Typing out thoughts now.

Weapons isn't making much sense to me, but that's not what I was really noticing. Actual thoughts following shortly.

[Percivalé]

Now you know how I feel when your case against me is "vibes". Impossible to argue for/against.

Uhhh, actually, it's different, and this response might have finally given me a case that I can make on you.

##Unvote

##Vote: Eclipse

I'm still playing TF2 and then I'll get back to what bugged me.

[euklyd]

Dammit when I was looking over my arguments I noticed I missed something. Ugh. Stupid me.

Weapons still isn't making a lot of sense, but I can imagine Viata agreeing with earlier him now, so nevermind about that. I can always go back to that if I need to, or if someone requests I post it.

[euklyd]

Okay right now I just want Weapons to explain his case(s) against people; he's gone after Boron a lot without explaining much, and now he's saying Shinori is prob scum, and/or Grassbridger as well.

I'd like to see reasons, please.

For ease of reference, ISO on Weapons is here.

Bearclaw and Viata as well, but you guys seem to have reasons, so later is fine.

Also Weapons it's really hard to tell if you're being serious or not. And by hard to tell I mean often impossible.

[eclipse]

Uhhh, actually, it's different, and this response might have finally given me a case that I can make on you.

##Unvote

##Vote: Eclipse

I'm still playing TF2 and then I'll get back to what bugged me.

I think it's about the same, and the fact that you had to wait this long to make a case tells me that I shouldn't hold my breath.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Don't feel like it; maybe later

[Shinori]

Actually I do have a question, does Shinori's role count No Lynches?

NOPE

I am on phone so much in the way of content isn't happening.

Thanks to my phone being terrible my reads are probably way off base/me misreading so I won't mention most of them, I'm townreading Bizz hard though, I will say that.

If someone could put the points made against me in a single post (preferably quoting anti-me posts) so I can try to answer them that would be great.

Sunday is always a busy day for me and Monday is as well, I hope to get my play going after that when I'm less busy.

Why are you townreading Bizz? Just curious.

Actually Grassbridger/Shinori, so 15/2

What makes me scum exactly?

[Shinori]

"Shinori should stay alive, but he's not clear."

"Shinori and Grassbinger are scum."

Wat.

[Percivalé]

It's not about the same... because tbh I was just waiting to see if I'd feel better about you after the day progressed a little more, and I still don't. But now I know why.

See, let me try to explain how my vibes work. This is for everyone for future reference. My brain works off of patterns, and it doesn't just do this with mafia but that's something else for another time. It's not really the same as meta because these patterns are universal, so anywhere I play the same (or similar) patterns apply.

If someone is playing to a pattern that suggests they might be scum or antitown, I start getting feelings that I can't really explain, so I can't logically present a case on them. What you did, eclipse, was kinda dance around earlygame and comment on the game and explain things to the newer people while saying yourself you had null reads on everyone and that pinged me, so I wanted to know if that changed. You then proceeded to vote me, and that was fine to me at first, but then the bad feelings came back after you did a certain few things, which I will explain in my next post. I need to grab the material.

[eclipse]

While you're working on that case (which looks like it might be interesting to argue against), I've got other stuff to do. Not sure when I'll be back.

[Shinori]

Oh yeah I meant to respond to Refa.

I never said anything about a no lynch being harmful. I'm pretty sure that was someone else, albeit it is not helpful to town though at this point in time in the game. However you did mix me up with someone else.

And honestly if there were 6 votes on someone and someone randomly took their vote off and caused a no lynch or a loss then they would have questions to answer. I don't really think people using the fact that someone could unvote and make it a no lynch can effectively use that as a real argument. Chances are it most likely wouldn't happen.

BUT ANYWAY. Refa: Do you think I'm scum or town?

[Refa]

so you say weapons' playstyle is a nulltell, then you state he's scummy for... the same reasons, basically. can you clarify this or have I hit a nail?

His playstyle is a nulltell, his reasons for voting Boron are not.

so you missed the part where the case is also based around the fact that you promised a reread and content, and a vote. the content is half-fixed in this post (even then, it's not stellar), but yet there's still no vote. you can say whatever you want about people, but where's the vote to back it up?

I was still deciding if I find weapons or bearclaw scummier. Surely being indecisive is not the sole characteristic of mafia, otherwise why don't you suspect all of the other people who haven't voted?

Looking back, Weapons' arguments have been bothering me more than bearclaw's sheeping, soooo...

##Vote:WeaponsOfMassConstruction

I never said anything about a no lynch being harmful. I'm pretty sure that was someone else, albeit it is not helpful to town though at this point in time in the game. However you did mix me up with someone else.

My apologies then. Feel free to ignore that argument, since it was all based around that fact.

BUT ANYWAY. Refa: Do you think I'm scum or town?

I think you're leaning town. The reason I dance around a lot concerning my opinion of you is honestly, everyone keeps on mentioning this role that you have that I have no clue how it works. So it's less that I think that you're scum and more that I don't get why you're confirmed town.

[Percivalé]

Btw Eclipse, I don't know if your suddenly passive-aggressive tone is annoyance at me or a reaction test or what, but I don't like it and I'd like to ask you to stop, please. I also find it hypocritical (in the context of the game) and therefore scummy, but I'll get to that in a sec.

Anyway, here's why I'm getting scumvibes (again) from Eclipse:

#167 is the case on me that addresses my statement after Shinori's vote on Weapons:

Weapons is an easy target to push because of his generally lax and 95% unserious playstyle.

I explained it and all that and it seemed to run all right with you and everything was fine. But then you say this in #224:

And somehow that Manix read went poof, Bizz, despite the fact that he just posted something.

Not only is this statement vague in similar ways to my Weapons comment (kinda passive-aggressive, kinda not), it was really hasty? Eclipse automatically assumed that because I mentioned my vibes on her but not Manix that my Manix vibe randomly vanished. That reads as strangely defensive to me, which I can understand.

And now Eclipse's recent attitude towards me is making my scumread on her worse. It comes off as slightly paranoid and defensive.

I think it's about the same, and the fact that you had to wait this long to make a case tells me that I shouldn't hold my breath.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

I feel like if Eclipse were town she might have just waited and kept on going until I felt better about her, because not only did I never place a vote on her but I didn't even have a logical case to present on her and even stated publicly stated this (#261). Instead, she's been making multiple passing comments at me about it and a couple of irritated statements that suggests she's more concerned about it than she honestly really should be, because there isn't a wagon on her and if I remember correctly I'm either the only person or one of a few that doesn't think she's town. Also ~meta~ but Eclipse is generally more reserved than this, so it bothers me.

And I can understand maybe she's just irritated at me but if she were irritated at me I would think she'd try to be more direct about it. I dunno.

I also can't tell if she thinks that I'm scum or not. She seemed somewhat satisfied after unvoting me before (and this read to me as town because that's something she usually does as town, votes someone & attempts to get an explanation out of them). However, #270 suggests that she still doesn't think that I'm town (ftr I am Wallcarb's townread), but I can't tell if this means she thinks I'm scum or that I'm just a null read or what.

I can't tell if Eclipse being hypocritically passive-aggressive and vague is an attempt to teach me how to be more clear/an attempt to finally get a case out of me (which, if it is, please stop because this kind of thing makes me legitimately uncomfortable), or if this is genuinely how she's acting and atm I think it's scummy either way because I really feel like town wouldn't act this way over some weird vibes. As I stated before, it feels paranoid and defensive to me.

I hope none of this reads as emotional because I'm not upset or anything, I just have a weird kind of tone sometimes and it reads as emotional to people when I don't mean it to be. I think I just get really passionate/into my arguments sometimes.

So, in a nutshell:

- Eclipse, do you think I'm town or scum? Why are you acting the way you are towards me? Was it just a reaction test or something? (And could you please maybe tone it down?)

[Grassbridger]

Weapons is full of BS and I assumed that his 15/2 joke wasn't actually accusing me or Shinori of anything. I'll continue to assume that until he's helpful at all.

Eclipse's response to Bizz's forthcoming case on her is troubling to me. Townies should focus on scumhunting, and if they have to defend themselves, that's regrettable because it means someone is going after the wrong person. Eclipse being intrigued by having to defend herself? Doesn't seem to come from a pro-town mindset. I find it scummy, along with a general pattern of an odd tone in her interaction with Bizz.

##Vote: Eclipse

Refa: Shinori's role is (apparently) that he gets info on the number of scum on each day's lynch wagon. It's a protown role but I think it'd be a stretch to call him confirmed town.

pedit: cut by Bizz, I agree with most of that stuff on Eclipse

[Percivalé]

tl;dr town really shouldn't be so worried over a 'case' that doesn't even have any logical basis that no one else is paying attention to, so that's mostly the main reason why the way Eclipse is acting bothers me and I think she's scummy. Manix has been reacting a little better towards my vibes on him for the most part (they haven't gone away still btw).

[Percivalé]

That made me very tired and I am going to bed btw, not posting again until the morning. Also just a reminder that I do have class tomorrow and I won't be around for a good chunk of the day and this will continue throughout the week.

[Sunwoo]

I have a right headache right now, so I'm probably going to disappear soon. However, Levity, I can't say I'm particularly happy with something you said in regards to eclipse.

I can't tell if Eclipse being hypocritically passive-aggressive and vague is an attempt to teach me how to be more clear/an attempt to finally get a case out of me (which, if it is, please stop because this kind of thing makes me legitimately uncomfortable)

"Hypocritical," I dunno and I'm not going to argue this, but why is it such a bad thing to want someone to give an actual case on you? You continuously say that when you're town you don't want people paying negative attention to you because you don't like being a distraction. Don't you think the rest of us feel that way too? People want you to build an actual case on them so that they can have something concrete to argue against. You can't really do anything if someone thinks you're scum and chooses to not explain it or just with "vibes".

For example, right now, Weapons thinks I'm scum. I don't know why he still feels I'm scum or why everything I've done makes him scummy in his eyes and his "too lazy" comment makes me want to scream. Do you think I like the fact that he won't explain why he thinks I'm scum aside from that one comment earlier, since I have no way of deconstructing his "case" on me when one doesn't even exist and he's just saying "Boron's scum"? How is this different for anyone else?

I will let eclipse answer for herself because I cannot and will not attempt to explain her logic and thoughts. But if she's not happy with what you're doing right now, then she's not the only one.

[Percivalé]

hypocrisy is a scumtell to me and like I said, if that's the case then Eclipse should have just been more direct. I didn't say it to be rude or say it because I was pissed off or whatever, I think that hypocrisy in the context of mafia can really be a scumtell and please try to tone down because I'm starting to freak out a little.

Also, Boron, the difference between you and Eclipse is that Eclipse has been more focused on making these passing comments towards me than actually scumhunting, which isn't the same for you. You've been scumhunting more than she has.