Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[Da Bear]

4. I suggest you not spoiler tag your responses unless there is something that is not game-related in your post. Content in spoilers is rather obnoxious. Also ... while it appears as if we are starting to be on the same page now, you'll have to forgive me if I'm not completely convinced just yet.

I will need some time to read the thread again and to begin forming opinions on other happenings ... I have been more tired than usual today and cannot think too clearly at the moment.

Thank you for clarifying elsewhere, I won't make those faulty conclusions again.

It wouldn't be responses it would be me explaining my posts because if other people misread them in the future I would have to spend the time explaining and also arguing instead of just explaining now.

At any rate, my other reads will coming soon.

[Da Bear]

Thank you for clarifying elsewhere, I won't make those faulty conclusions again.

It wouldn't be responses it would be me explaining my posts because if other people misread them in the future I would have to spend the time explaining and also arguing instead of just explaining now.

At any rate, my other reads are being made now.

wording man. It's hard

[Elieson]

BBM BBMissed My question aimed at his role.

How does your insomnia work?

[Da Bear]

Please note that if I comment on activity this is done while not knowing your schedule. I shall not scumhunt by inactivity but I think you guys should all POST MOAR when you can.

1. BBM, His recent content is making me less suspicious of him. How I read your posts will always mean more to me than roles. (unless the role proves something ofc)

2. Marth, POST MOAR

3. Eclipse, ^

4. Rein, His vote on me looks like good scumhunting and I can't fault his reasoning there, tunneling(ish) is still lame though and you have posted when other stuff is around. POST MOAR.

5. Grassy Bridge Er. POST MOAR.

6. This guys is awesome. No doubting it, I can't say I disagree with anything he's said. Shame there's a wagon on him really.

7. j00, POST MOAR.

8. Kay, Mainly a POST MOAR person but she agreed that BBM would do the TOWN LEADER gambit as scum so that's cool (not worth a read though obvsly).

9. Kirsche, I'm null on this guy, I think he scumhunts well enough and his last post made a comment that makes me think he's going to look townie once roles start being outed. (I hope that's not for a while though.)

10. Proto, BBM's statements here are how I'm feeling about him basically. Not ready to say he's scum but he's definitely looking worse than most.

11. Nekorex ,POST MOAR. Didn't even realize you were playing somehow -_-

12. Paperblade, I'm reading Paper as town right now because he's actively contributing a lot more than he did in Fakeclaim, simply providing content.

13. Objection, Hates Bears :'( also POST MOAR

14. Refa, I've responded to his posts and as you can see I don't agree with his logic, that doesn't mean I find him scummy though. He's mainly null rn.

15. Rocker64, Can't say much here. Has made posts and looks like a newb trying to contribute(he is a newb right?). But I think Prims would make him scum just to mess with people saying newbs should be given the benefit of the doubt or something like that recently.

16. Boron, Now that we've cleared things up I no longer find her that scummy. Still a bit worse than null to me but not worth a lynch.

17. SB, Doesn't actually give reasons for voting me at first (didn't realize that at first) and then only explains by saying I'm overreacting. I'm not entirely certain that's a scumtell (I won't argue the logic though, I would like an explanation for the logic). He also isn't really giving any other reads atm despite seeming to have been around (if he wasn't than idk what to think anymore). Definitely finding him scummy.

18. Scorri, Hasn't been around or posted enough content to get a read... so far I don't see a read she's given.Other than reading Eli as old.

19. Shinori, Another person who's existence escaped me. POST MOAR.

20. Strege. His case on Refa seems really... bad. Not really scummy bad but I remember him making much stronger arguments last time he played. Not sure how things are with him. He is at least actively contributing.

21.The Protown SK, LITERALLY HASN'T POSTED. POST A LOT MOAR.

SB > Proto > Boron =BBM (last two would be stretching it rn though)

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

[Da Bear]

Elieson apparently has posted!

His ISO must be broken then!

[Da Bear]

17. SB, Doesn't actually give reasons for voting me at first (didn't realize that at first) and then only explains by saying I'm overreacting. I'm not entirely certain that's a scumtell (I won't argue the logic though, I would like an explanation for the logic). He also isn't really giving any other reads atm despite seeming to have been around (if he wasn't than idk what to think anymore). Definitely finding him scummy.

To extrapolate, his reasoning for voting seems scummy to me (I could be persuaded otherwise if he explains though) and not posting when he was around is just meh, I wouldn't say he's scum purely because of that but it contributes to my negative read on him.

[Prims]

yep. im smart enough to change his name on the playerlist to his namechange, but not his iso

[BBM]

BBM BBMissed My question aimed at his role.

How does your insomnia work?

I can post in the thread during every night phase as much as I want to with no restrictions or repercussions- ie how insomniacs have always worked. Do you really not have anything better to say or ask?

Bear, there's no point to including null reads and POST MOAR's into a post. It doesn't contribute in any way or share new info. Keep it to your townreads and scumreads.

[Sunwoo]

Reading through the thread again ... I find Strege's case on Refa to not be very strong. The initial vote came because Refa asked BBM what character he claimed. I also do not quite understand his explanation of the vote. ... Why is it so out-of-place that Refa's question wasn't relevant to alignment? The comments about characters and flavor role implication does not sit well with me. ... Is Refa scummy for any other reasons?

My current issue with Paperblade ... is that most of his content has been relevant to BBM's role and I am not too sure what he thinks of most of the players who have posted enough. I have some idea what he thinks about me and somewhat of bearclaw ... but what of others?

Proto ... what is your opinion on BBM? I am not sure what to think about your posts on him.

As for BBM himself ... I do not agree with his case on kirsche. Otherwise I do not find fault with what he is saying. ... Still would not claim, though.

[Kriemhild]

BBM, the main reason I found your claim suspicious is because not only did you roleclaim in that post, but you even started getting into detailed plans on how we should execute the Town Leader interactions. As if you actually expected us to just blindly trust you like that. If you were going to roleclaim, that's fine. But if you start proposing techniques to make the Town Leader system work, you should be giving us a reason to believe that you're Town. Flimsy reasoning is not inherently scummy, but it implies weak attempts at achieving something.

And yes, I know that bearclaw's vote had nothing to do with Refa, but that was the impression that I got from his posts. He maintained that he did not want BBM to become a Leader while he didn't find BBM suspicious. Then people started voting for him, and bearclaw suddenly changed his mind about BBM and started to vote for him. I got the impression that he wanted to declare a votable scumread because of other people attacking him. His explanation for his BBM vote did not consist of anything that he himself didn't already point out earlier, and BBM has not made any new posts for him to analyze. I don't like that vote, and I would consider bearclaw as being either scum, or a weak Town

[Paperblade]

Most people have just been talking about BBM's role, and a lot of it is either people being for it (which I am since I think BBM's posts have been fairly town) or against it. The caution is fine I guess, I mean I could make arguments about it but it would be rolespec (which most people aren't sold on). There are also some people going "ew no town leader bad" which isn't really scummy but I also think is dumb. I don't think being for it is scummy unless BBM flips scum, which I currently don't think he will.

[Shinori]

Okay, sorry I haven't been around. I'll get a post before tomorrow.

[BBM]

BBM, the main reason I found your claim suspicious is because not only did you roleclaim in that post, but you even started getting into detailed plans on how we should execute the Town Leader interactions. As if you actually expected us to just blindly trust you like that. If you were going to roleclaim, that's fine. But if you start proposing techniques to make the Town Leader system work, you should be giving us a reason to believe that you're Town. Flimsy reasoning is not inherently scummy, but it implies weak attempts at achieving something.

And yes, I know that bearclaw's vote had nothing to do with Refa, but that was the impression that I got from his posts. He maintained that he did not want BBM to become a Leader while he didn't find BBM suspicious. Then people started voting for him, and bearclaw suddenly changed his mind about BBM and started to vote for him. I got the impression that he wanted to declare a votable scumread because of other people attacking him. His explanation for his BBM vote did not consist of anything that he himself didn't already point out earlier, and BBM has not made any new posts for him to analyze. I don't like that vote, and I would consider bearclaw as being either scum, or a weak Town

I don't find it suspicious that you found my actions suspicious. I can see reasons for thinking that because in hindsight I should have opened differently. But later on you said you had "absolutely no reasons to find BBM (me) suspicious", which is a big contradiction. And funnily enough, this 180 happens as soon as Bearclaw starts getting voted for his case against me.

It's also incorrect that he first had the view that he didn't find me suspicious. He didn't say I was scummy exactly, but he did say that he thought my role was scummy. So it wasn't like a nullread -> scumread as you make it out to be.

As for me claiming, the only reason I did it is to propose a Town Leader plan. If I didn't have a detailed plan as to how me being Town Leader in an NOC game would work, I wouldn't have claimed at all, since there would have been no benefit to it.

[BBM]

As for BBM himself ... I do not agree with his case on kirsche. Otherwise I do not find fault with what he is saying. ... Still would not claim, though.

reasons pl0x (for not agreeing with my Kirsche case). I'll admit I have nothing strong for this feeling, but I get the sense that because you find Strege somewhat suspicious due to his Refa case, you're letting that bleed into my case against Kirsche's Strege case, which it shouldn't because Kirsche's Strege case is based on a completely different reason than your Strege case.

[Elieson]

I can post in the thread during every night phase as much as I want to with no restrictions or repercussions- ie how insomniacs have always worked. Do you really not have anything better to say or ask?

Good, just checking. I was actually wondering why you didn't ask for any potential confirmation roles to check you over during N0, so that way you wouldn't be busting everyone's balls during D1 with your random "I wanna lead the town kguysthx" thing. You had the capability to make your RoleClaim+Town Leader request meaningful, and apparently didn't. I'm trying to fathom the logic in this

It seems bad to me when you had the ability to request safety confirmation, and therefore, future protection, and instead, just moved forward acting like we'd all follow along.

Also I just got home and am actually not on my phone. TO THE REREAD AND ISOS!

[BBM]

Telling the Cop to inspect me would just be potential Tailor bait, and also asking to get inspected is scummy as fuck and I don't trust anyone who does that. Whenever I see someone ask to get inspected, I automatically think GF.

Also it's not my fault you guys are a bunch of atheists.

[Grassbridger]

I'm really sorry for inactivity guys. I basically only have time to read the thread when I'm in class or when I should be sleeping. This week has been unexpectedly busy for me, and it will continue to be so until Monday or Tuesday. Considering a sub, but hopefully I'll be able to keep going.

Quick thoughts:

-What worries me about this town-leader setup is that I wouldn't be able to check with other people to figure out what's going on. In Shipping Mafia, Manix was town leader but I could talk to other players at night and figure out what was up/whether to trust him. Here, I'd definitely want some alignment confirmation before claiming, as others have been saying.

-bearclaw certainly seems strange for voting BBM only after being called out on his suspicion, but right now I agree with BBM's "townie/effort" read on him. The vote read to me more as a townie trying to prove a point than scum trying to be consistent.

-Agree with Elie's calling out BBM for lack of N0 sleeptalking and would like an explanation.

-Completely agree with BBM #110. Kirsche's case on Strege seems kind of forced, since I don't see how Strege was pushing a massclaim to BBM, and even if he was it'd only be scummy if he and BBM were scumbuddies (cause scum!Strege would have no reason to encourage a massclaim to town!BBM), so that's a vote based on really weak associative reads without a flip.

##vote: Kirsche

[Sunwoo]

BBM ... I disagree with your case on kirsche because I do not see what about kirsche's post that you quoted is scummy. Please do not make such assumptions as you did ... because it sounds as if you are trying to discredit me without even letting me speak for myself. My vote on Strege has nothing to do with kirsche's vote on Strege and your case on kirsche. ... I merely do not understand why kirsche's post is scummy to you.

[Elieson]

Telling the Cop to inspect me would just be potential Tailor bait, and also asking to get inspected is scummy as fuck and I don't trust anyone who does that. Whenever I see someone ask to get inspected, I automatically think GF.

Well you're opening yourself up to all of that just the same simply by trying to run claimtomes and town leaderisms. Now it's just as likely as N0 for a theoretical Tailor or Kidnapper or whatever to nab you, only now the circumstances are worse because you can be killed tonight, whereas last night that was one less negative scenario that could hit you. Rolespec prevented you from trying to cement yourself as town leader on a night where you were immune from death, but now you're a potential victim to both roles and a factional kill.

And then you jump to rolespec for a situation of someone else potentially doing what you did.

I dunno, I just don't like it. You're making it hard to have faith in this holy plan of yours.

[BBM]

I didn't say anything on N0 because I didn't feel like there was anything to talk about and I thought I might as well let the mafia go one night phase without knowing my role (for the small chance they might waste a rolecop on me or something). I probably should have brought up the town leader topic in some way but didn't want to specifically ask for a Cop inspect. And if the mafia want to kill an Insomniac with limited OC capabilities, all power to them. Prims basically told me that my role was conceptualized ahead of time specifically to troll me if I picked God (I joked about it on IRC a long time ago; dunno if Paper remembers). Anyways, I've explained my thought process. I made some admittedly poor decisions, but if you're not going to vote me for them, start actually contributing.

Also I don't get what this means: And then you jump to rolespec for a situation of someone else potentially doing what you did.

@Boron- I did say that my feeling was mostly gut-based. Anyways, the point is that Kirsche is voting Strege for something that's not scummy. He's voting Strege for something that's dumb, maybe, but there is no scum intent in saying that it makes sense to massclaim to someone privately, unless that someone is their scumbuddy. Bad logic =/= having scum intent.

[Strege]

I just noticed that I didn't reply to something:

I believe I already responded on that?

Nope -- I meant the explanation of why I think character claiming makes a difference which I present in that very post, and this is the first post of yours after it.

To clarify my position on Refa (because I don't know if anyone is not misinterpreting my intent) I find him somewhat scummy. In general, I do think that it is a little scummy to fish for information not related to alignment when the town's job, especially this early on, is to scumhunt. I think that asking for information regarding someone's role's flavour to be made public without justification is scummy for the same reason (though not nearly to the same extent) as fishing for mechanical role information, since it can be relevant in the same ways. I think this is a solid basis for an early vote?

Regarding Refa's later posts, I agreed with the initial comment that bearclaw's supposed paranoia about BBM sounded false (to me it sounded... like a guy making downward motions with his hands while trying to cling to authority over a now-raucous mob -- I'm sorry but that's the best way I can find to describe it at this hour) BUT I think his last post supports this with really slippery logic that I think someone has explained somewhere. I would like to hear more, specifically regarding that logic and my earlier question.

NOW ON TO RECENT SUBJECTS my god there are a lot of posts.
-Rein is rubbing me the wrong way for only just having the one constructive post and then being like "hey guys this is great activity for me". Nah son, I wanna see some follow-up.
-Sangyul, why do you find me scummy? As far as I understand it you either disagree with or do not understand my initial position against Refa and also think my arguments have been sparse (yo, I told ya' guys I'm in midterm season (just for D1 luckily) and I'm trying to respond to people with the time I have). Also, how scummy do you find me?
-Elie's following a neat rabbit hole regarding BBM but otherwise has like no opinions? I get the sense he's been around so it seems odd that he can't offer any kind of read on anyone else.
-bearclaw I am okay with despite early stuff. I like his listpost particularly for quantifying most of his reads on active players fairly well.
-Rocker, having no vote and no scumreads, looks supes bad imo. We haven't played together though and from interactions I suspect that I have some responsibility to adapt in this case. Regardless: scumreads please!
-Proto bothers me quite a bit because a lot of his posts have a lot of logical disagreement / discussion of theory / etc and one strong opinion against bearclaw which materialized when bearclaw had 2-3 votes on him. The scum pattern of finding a single hard nail with which to pin yourself to a wagon of about this size is one which I'm familiar with, particularly as it is a strategy I enjoy as scum. I'll need to reread here when I'm cognizant enough to digest a complete paragraph but I want more scumreads elsewhere, or more varied thought processes about bearclaw.

I think that's enough to earn bedtime. Oh, and I don't think that I've been in a game as town where BBM was scum, despite what games people imagine me having participated in.

[Sunwoo]

To clarify my position on Refa (because I don't know if anyone is not misinterpreting my intent) I find him somewhat scummy. In general, I do think that it is a little scummy to fish for information not related to alignment when the town's job, especially this early on, is to scumhunt. I think that asking for information regarding someone's role's flavour to be made public without justification is scummy for the same reason (though not nearly to the same extent) as fishing for mechanical role information, since it can be relevant in the same ways. I think this is a solid basis for an early vote?

-Sangyul, why do you find me scummy? As far as I understand it you either disagree with or do not understand my initial position against Refa and also think my arguments have been sparse (yo, I told ya' guys I'm in midterm season (just for D1 luckily) and I'm trying to respond to people with the time I have). Also, how scummy do you find me?

I find your initial case on Refa odd. I can understand finding a person suspicious for rolefishing ... but I fail to see how Refa asking BBM what character he picked constitutes as rolefishing suspicious enough to warrant a vote. He literally said, "Wait, what character did you pick?" before you decided it was enough to find him scummy.

... If Refa did nothing else but talk about flavor after asking BBM for his claim then I could understand a vote on him as well ... but I do not understand your reasonings as to why what he did do makes him the worst.

At this point in time, I find you scummy enough to be worth mentioning. Your voting Refa for "rolefishing" does not sit well with me, because I do not understand why this is so scummy when all he did was ask what he claimed.

[eclipse]

While this is true, I doubt that the ability to give town limited OC would not be considered OP in any circumstance, especially when combined with Insomniac to give him even more communication ability. OC is always powerful for town.

I agree with the second paragraph though, that was my original reason but after thinking it through I just don't think this is something Prims would do.

(Not entirely related to your post but I'm already acknowledging that I could be wrong in saying that I'm not using this as something strong enough to think BBM is scum, so it's not like I'm giving this theory much weight yet)

Don'tmetathehost.

As of yet I don't see anything else really worth commenting on, I hope that changes quickly.

I have nothing there to really base a concrete read on, which is why I have not given a solid read. I'm merely wary of BBM's claim. I was going to ask why people were just agreeing with BBM's plan but then people who agreed with me showed up and the plan no longer seemed as important as the claim itself.

Although now that you mention it, I would like to know why everyone seemed so sure of BBM at first, his claim set off alarm bells for me immediately and I would like to understand what the thought process behind disagreeing responses looked like.

Becausehalfisprovable. Andtherest. ComesfromOCexperience. Whichisapain. Toexplainlikethis.

I don't believe scum would want to be town leader, because that implies having a definite stance, which scum literally just cannot do.

ThisdealswithOC. Scumwantstobeleader. Tocontrolthegame. GoreadUnicycle.

I also forgot to comment on the weird way the post was made... I don't believe there are posting restrictions. ..

Iwouldn'tbetyping. Likethis. IfIwasn'tforcedto. Soyesthere. Arepostingrestrictions.

Proto's role in Touhou Mafia allowed private communication too. So Proto could have easily taken the position of being a "leader", and get people to claim to him privately. That way, a town role would get all the information, and it wouldn't benefit scum any more than it would in BBM's current role. But BBM's role has to deal with different timings and such because everything is public.

Talkinginthirdperson. Isnotcute.

Thank you for clarifying elsewhere, I won't make those faulty conclusions again.

It wouldn't be responses it would be me explaining my posts because if other people misread them in the future I would have to spend the time explaining and also arguing instead of just explaining now.

At any rate, my other reads will coming soon.

Mafiaisabout. Learningfromyourmistakes. Whyareyouapologizing?

BBM BBMissed My question aimed at his role.

How does your insomnia work?

Whyisthis. Evenrelevant? We'dfindout. OnN1.

2. Marth, POST MOAR

3. Eclipse, ^

IpostwhenIcan. BecauseIabsolutelyrefuse. Topost. Atwork. Reallife. Comesfirst.

Most people have just been talking about BBM's role, and a lot of it is either people being for it (which I am since I think BBM's posts have been fairly town) or against it. The caution is fine I guess, I mean I could make arguments about it but it would be rolespec (which most people aren't sold on). There are also some people going "ew no town leader bad" which isn't really scummy but I also think is dumb. I don't think being for it is scummy unless BBM flips scum, which I currently don't think he will.

Whoareyourscumreads?

AsfortheBBMthing. Ihatemyrole. AsBBM'srole. IsamixofOCandNOC. Ishouldbeableto. Drawsomeofhislogic. Fromthethread. SoifIseeutternonsense. I'llknowit.

Currenltydon'tlike. Thefactthat. There'ssomuchfocusonBBM. Andnotsomuch. Oneveryonelse. Therefore.

##Unvote

##Vote:Elieson

Whoisscum?

IthinkJSND. HasnoNOCexperience. Andhekindaremindsme. OfSwordmasterinUnicycle. Paperbladeshouldstop. BeingsohunguponBBM. Andposthisotherscumreads. Alongwith. RefaRockerscorri. Andwhoeverelse. Imissed. Protoalsolacksscumreads. ButIcan'tvotethatmanypeopleatonce. Manyofyou. Needtoexist.

ThisPRislame.

[Paperblade]

it's 24 hours into Day 1

[eclipse]

it's 24 hours into Day 1

We'renotinRVS.