Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[Paperblade]

also some time in the next ~15 hours (basically before I get up in the morning) I want everyone to make a list of people they would be okay with lynching and why

[Paperblade]

keep the lists short btw, like 3 people or so

I don't want you fools nullreading all over the place

[Sunwoo]

Probably won't respond to Boron unless people insist on it since this might get emotionally charged and that would be bad

... I am not sure what to think of this :/

[Bluedoom]

Tbf I don't really see Boron's and Paperblade's cases on each other. Boron's case on bearclaw earlier- she's capable of doing this as either alignment. If you looked at fakeclaim mafia you'd know she generally is paranoid of noob!scum. I can't see Boron's case on Paper either because its partially because of the Elieson vote(which I agree with), and the later half I actually disagree with because I think he has been addressing his concerncs with other players and finds them somewhat scumm(at least it looks like that to me.) I think this is in-town fighting.

I'd currently be fine with lynching Eli(I still don't agree with his Strege vote) or Proto(for reasons I've said earlier). Don't have a third candidate because I thinkk its still to early in the phase but w/e.

[Kriemhild]

Okay, I guess I need to clarify my complete 180 on whether there's anything scummy about BBM's claim. In one of my earlier posts here, I found it suspicious that BBM expected us to appoint him as a Town Leader without proving his innocence. bearclaw replied to it here, agreeing with me, and made several posts that implied that he had analyzed BBM's post, did not find BBM scummy, but disliked his plan. And then he suddenly changed his mind in this post. When I said there was nothing suspicious about BBM, what I meant was that there was nothing new that he has not already thoroughly analyzed before making his vote. Pretty much all of his posts before that point where about that one post of BBM's. BBM hasn't posted at all since then, so I found it very strange that he suddenly changed his mind about being scummy. I got the impression that he was only making that vote because he was being pressured to form concrete reads, because all he was doing was discuss BBM's post while declaring that he didn't find BBM himself scummy.

I do still find BBM a bit suspicious for that roleclaim post. I'm actually not quite sure what outcome he truly intended from that post. I disagree with Kay in that trying to make yourself look good is scummy, because this was early D1, and BBM had absolutely no way of making him look good since there was nothing before that. As scum, he could make that claim and try getting everyone to focus on how to make the Town Leader procedure work, before people question his claim. At the very least, he could have gotten a few claims out of that.

Now, regarding the Boron vs Paperblade discussion, I don't really see what makes Boron scummy. Her vote for bearclaw seemed quite justified, because I found bearclaw's sudden BBM vote very odd as well. btw her re-voting on bearclaw was because somebody pointed out that she did not unvote j00. Boron also stated that she was really busy and stuff, so it makes sense for her to miss some of the details in bearclaw's posts. I'm also not seeing what makes Strege an easy wagon, and she never even voted for Strege to begin with.

Speaking of Strege, I don't see anything wrong with him. His vote on Refa was based on weak reasoning, but it was really early into the game, and Refa's character inquiry was the only thing that bothered him at that point. Refa wasn't pushing for a character claim, he was simply asking a normal question. Strege misinterpreted that and found Refa scummy for character fishing.

[Grassbridger]

Some quick thoughts as I catch up on the thread:

So I don't think that Grass is misrepping or twisting Elie's words by implying Elie is, at the least, wary of me.

Gonna reply to this one since I'm too lazy to find SB's original post. "Calling out" meant, for me, "calling attention to." I just wanted to know why BBM didn't say anything n0.

I voted him again because I forgot to unvote the first time. As for me telling him to elaborate ... I will admit right here and now that I did forget that he made a post outlining why he voted BBM. I have no excuses other than I was literally rushing to get out of my apartment and his post with the reasons were on the previous page and so I forgot about it at that time. And I do not care if you do not believe me on this.

This sounds overly defensive over something that was not that bad. "Oops, sorry, you're right" somehow got stretched into 3 lines with an admission of guilt, an excuse, and a defiant "I don't care what you think." Seems like fluff and also trying to hit all the "offended, well-meaning townie" checklist items (emphasis on trying). It felt fake.

Okay, I guess I need to clarify my complete 180 on whether there's anything scummy about BBM's claim. In one of my earlier posts here, I found it suspicious that BBM expected us to appoint him as a Town Leader without proving his innocence. bearclaw replied to it here, agreeing with me, and made several posts that implied that he had analyzed BBM's post, did not find BBM scummy, but disliked his plan. And then he suddenly changed his mind in this post. When I said there was nothing suspicious about BBM, what I meant was that there was nothing new that he has not already thoroughly analyzed before making his vote. Pretty much all of his posts before that point where about that one post of BBM's. BBM hasn't posted at all since then, so I found it very strange that he suddenly changed his mind about being scummy. I got the impression that he was only making that vote because he was being pressured to form concrete reads, because all he was doing was discuss BBM's post while declaring that he didn't find BBM himself scummy.

I do still find BBM a bit suspicious for that roleclaim post. I'm actually not quite sure what outcome he truly intended from that post. I disagree with Kay in that trying to make yourself look good is scummy, because this was early D1, and BBM had absolutely no way of making him look good since there was nothing before that. As scum, he could make that claim and try getting everyone to focus on how to make the Town Leader procedure work, before people question his claim. At the very least, he could have gotten a few claims out of that.

Now, regarding the Boron vs Paperblade discussion, I don't really see what makes Boron scummy. Her vote for bearclaw seemed quite justified, because I found bearclaw's sudden BBM vote very odd as well. btw her re-voting on bearclaw was because somebody pointed out that she did not unvote j00. Boron also stated that she was really busy and stuff, so it makes sense for her to miss some of the details in bearclaw's posts. I'm also not seeing what makes Strege an easy wagon, and she never even voted for Strege to begin with.

Speaking of Strege, I don't see anything wrong with him. His vote on Refa was based on weak reasoning, but it was really early into the game, and Refa's character inquiry was the only thing that bothered him at that point. Refa wasn't pushing for a character claim, he was simply asking a normal question. Strege misinterpreted that and found Refa scummy for character fishing.

Glad you clarified that, Proto. So you find who scummy? Oh, thanks for laying it out: nobody, except BBM for role reasons.

##Unvote

##Vote: Proto

responding to Paper's request for a lynch list--would lynch Proto, maybe Boron after I go back and reread to see if there's anything more that seems forced or off. Kirsche read is fading for now, as one might expect from an ED1 read.

[Sunwoo]

This sounds overly defensive over something that was not that bad. "Oops, sorry, you're right" somehow got stretched into 3 lines with an admission of guilt, an excuse, and a defiant "I don't care what you think." Seems like fluff and also trying to hit all the "offended, well-meaning townie" checklist items (emphasis on trying). It felt fake.

You're drilling me for sounding "overly defensive" because you feel that I could've summed up my statement into "oops sorry you're right" and I decided to post more than that, am I correct on this? I admit when I screw up, and if I have a reason for screwing up then I give it. I know that not everyone will necessarily believe the reasons I give for screwing up, and I can't do anything about it, hence the "I don't care if you believe me or not" because I know it's a possibility that he won't. I really don't see what the problem is.

This feels very nitpicky, especially since you gave no other reasons as to why you dislike me besides this and suddenly I'm second on your lynch list. Looking for things that are "forced" or "off" does find scum, but everyone has their own way of how they respond, and I hope you're not judging my reaction by how you personally would respond in a similar situation. I'd like a bit more of an explanation on how my reaction is "fake" because I feel your "hit all the offended, well-meaning townie" checklist comment is bullshit.

[eclipse]

I'mhere. DuetothisstupidPR. Mynextpost. Willtakelonger. Thanusual. Needtofigureout. Howtoexpressmyself. Withoutoomanywords.

[Strege]

I'll be posting between stuff tonight if I'm posting at all I'm afraid.

I'm so tired of fighting over the flavour-fishing thing. I get the impression that people understand my position now more than before, though think I am overreacting either because they are mistaking me being frustrated and having to clarify myself as stubbornness or because they legitimately don't agree, which I can kind of see. Since I remember Elie accusing me of flavourhunting I will take a moment to say that we must have very different definitions of the term, since I was convinced that flavourhunting was looking for scum based on flavour. BBM could be roleplaying my grandma for all I care because what I was interested in was Refa's question. If you take issue with me entertaining the possibility of flavour-relevant roles, I will assert that I am only assuming what I see as the reasonable null hypothesis

Kirsche, in post 163 you say my opinion on BBM was forced, yet you found it lacking conviction before that, and found it pushy before that. It really looks like you're just swapping interpretations to whatever is convenient in order to make me look bad. You also accuse me of "more waffling", but unless you are talking about my BBM opinion (which I really don't think is waffling) then I don't think you've accused me of waffling before. You basically ignore my comments on Rein and Elie and use my comment on Proto and then accuse me of not talking about people that aren't Refa when I have been mostly talking about Refa because you and a few others demanded responses about him. If you only voted Proto over me because you were forgiving my lack of conviction as meta (and I am sure it is only this because your comments on me were much more damning than on him) then how can you later call my opinion forced and "super scummy" yet not be voting for me?

I think "forgiving" my meta and saying "I understand that I'm probably pressuring you a lot when you don't have time to spare, so instead of bothering trying to explain yourself any further (because I'm pretty stubborn on stuff like this), please expand your thoughts on bear's list post (something I actually want everyone currently voting bear to do) and get that proto reread and we'll go from there." looks like closing off avenues of discussion without bringing them to a conclusion, leaving you to take whatever stance you want on me later on. (Although when I first read that as genuine I really appreciated the gesture, and I still do if you weren't just scheming.)

I still find Refa somewhat scummy and his hugemongous post appended with a half-hearted promise of reads really doesn't help. I didn't think that curiosity was a likely motivation for the character question, but as it seems everyone else does I'm backing off on that point. Even without, kirsche looks worse much to me right now.

##Unvote (Refa), ##Vote kirsche

I'm also curious what issues kirsche was alluding to in post 183, where he decided to emphasize the fact that he has problems with Boron without delving into any of them (specifically with the "Nothing glaring at least." comment).

I did read the bear listpost for content actually -- I just felt that at the rate bear's reads were evolving he couldn't turn most of those into a vote easily, and that was the most important part for me. "Post moars" suck but he wasn't sowing seeds of doubt in what little content some of the people had, and the nulls and wouldn't-lynches sounded unconcerned. For me it leans toward sounding like he went for a listpost in order to find things to say and failed to find them.

On a full read I'm not really only mildly concerned with Proto right now -- not a lot of scumreads but I believe the wordderp and it sounds pretty much like his style from Touhou, which I had a hard time reading anyway. I wish to know whois scum though, and if I don't see more opinions late in the phase and especially after D1 then I'm going to be more concerned.

Paper did you copy-paste your 200 out of Kay's 161 or.

Actually Kay bothers me a bit -- she points out SB's contradictions then bounces out of the thread without further comment in her last post, and waffles on bear just before that. Kay, what is your opinion of BBM exactly? Your questions to him seem terse in a way that I wouldn't associate with what I see as a townread in your other language. If anyone does a top-three list of scumreads I'm actually most interested in yours.

If I missed responding to someone please let me know, as I'm a little disorganized at the moment.

My list is something like kirsche > Refa > Kay > Proto. I'd like to fill it in a bit better but I've some more work to do.

[Strege]

Also I meant to read Paperblade.iso but got distracted then busy. Will do later. Would like a response to my comment tho.

[Elieson]

Back from a suuuuuuuuuuper long day, featuring intense work and a big job application/referral. Catching up from P.5, and kids are asleep, so focus mode activate.

[eclipse]

I think Kirsche's jump to be town leader seemed to be a little off. It seemed to me like he wanted to jump to the opportunity when Paper mentioned someone else possibly leading. Didn't really fully like that. It struck me as off.

Ididn'tgetthesense. Thatkirschewas. Claiminginsomniac. SoIreaditassarcasm.

Also eclipse made a wall containing not very much scumhunting. She poked PB a bit, which is all well and good, and defended bear, which is also good; but that's it aside from telling people to post more. Her vote just reads as a pressure vote and not a vote on someone she thinks is actually scummy. I'd like her to discuss other wagons and other topics of discussion, especially what she makes of PB's Boron vote. If she thinks PB is trying to coast off the town leader talk and not scumhunt, what do you make of his apparently only attempt at scumhunting. Also, does his push on Elieson change your opinion/thoughts on him?

Paperblade'sentireposting. Uptothatpoint. WasacouplecommentsonBoron. AndalotonBBM. I'llgettotherest. OfPaperblade'scontentlater. Becausestuffchanged. Afterthisquote.

Icametotheconclusion. ThatBBMwasn'tgoingtobelynched. WhichiswhyIthink. Thatdiscussionshouldfocus. Onotherpeoplebesideshim. Frommypastwallpost. You'dsee. Thattherwasmore. DiscussionaboutBBMthananythingelse.

I'm not being singled out

but it's still dumb since she doesn't exactly have multiple scumreads either unless she thinks the whole game is scum

Ifeltthat. Thegameneededto. StopbeinghungupoverBBM'srole. Becauseitseemedlike. Amisunderstandingbetween. NOCandOC. Whichdoesn'tfindscum.

Responding to bits in rough order: Having conviction when you're in over your head intellectually is The Worst Thing -- seriously. I didn't realize that you were connecting my bear and Refa comments to my BBM opinion though, which makes more sense. However, at that point BBM's claim was the only interesting thing occurring so I'm obviously going to look at people's reactions to it for reads. I didn't look for people being too trusting because I honestly thought that super trusting was the norm. I realize this is an awful set of thought processes and yeah I'm that bad at anything glancing on OC.

By Refa's slippery logic I mean the implication that you can not doubt someone and not think that they are scum at the same time, presented in a way that looks to my like grasping to keep an invalid point alive. It doesn't look like your read my complete opinion of Rocker. I thought the presentation of bear's listpost was more telling to me about his alignment than its content, so that's what I mentioned, though I also meant to delete that because sharing townreads 24 hours in is dumb. I have also mentioned other people not named Refa and have a vote down so I don't know what you're asking me to do.

Also, I have not been scumbuddies with BBM where he bussed me, and I tend to think of him as pretty methodical scum in his way. Heck, he was even a wet blanket about me bussing him for funsies in Drafters (which was admittedly the better play). Going though old games I realized that you were convinced of BBM and I being scumbuddies starting early in Musical Chairs (my last game) when neither of us were scum because we sort of attacked attacks on each other. I guess it's just sort of a thing we do as a result of being friends, and while I can't toss of your arguments on these meta grounds I would ask that you consider the history here.

I was going to reread Proto now but I literally don't have time after responding to this. I will dig through email notifications on the subway and post something later.

Thisisanexample. OfwhatImean. Thispostalsohas. Alotofmeta. Alotofconversation. Andverylittleconclusion. Idon'tlike. Thatsetofpostcharacteristics.

At this point, I'm looking at:

Not Scum

People

Forced Neutral/Null

BBM

Potental Scum

Proto

Strege

---

And that's up to Page 5. I fell asleep on my keyboard last night while typing up this & a new resume. Catching up on the rest now. My Read on BBM is different now, I'm just outlining my thoughts through the process of reading, and as they developed.

Whatchangedyourmind. AboutBBM?

@Kirsche- If it was decided that I was going to become town leader, then it would make sense for Strege to try and buddy up to me and push a massclaim. As it was, the majority of people were (and still are) against claiming to me, so all he would be doing is maybe create a town leader where none had to exist. I also really don't know which game you're talking about, because in Drafters, the only game where we were scumbuddies, the entire scumteam survived. The only game I can remember where Strege was scum and got lynched D1 was C9++, and I was town there and got mislynched D2 so ???

Ihavemyreasons. Fornotcaring. Aboutthesecrecy. Ofmyclaim.

.... Hail the Jews. Also yes, I believe that roles ARE based on flavor (at least my role is).

Mineisn't.

My other game has been sapping all my time, and I can't find anything to really comment on in the game so far :/

Nekoifyou'regonnabebusy. Thencanyoufindasub?

I changed my vote because people weren't commenting, but I decided that I wanted people to actually comment on it instead of simply ignoring other cases like they normally do. My vote's ultimately not that important though

Ohforcryingoutloud. Town'sweaponisthelynch. Whichinvolvesvotes. Don'tcarefortheself-deprecation. Onapersonallevel.

Paperpost

Boronlinkedthatpost. Wherebearclawsaid. Thatitwassortofapressurevote. Andthen:

The pressure vote was an afterthought when I called him dumb, which is something you are continuing to ignore. I have never denied that he said it was partly a pressure vote but you have continued to act like that was his primary reason when it was not present at all in his initial post.

YourwallonBoron. Makesitsoundlike. bearclaw'svote. Wasneverapressurevote. Asthisispartofyourreason. Forvotingher. Ithinkthatthisdetail. Issomewhatimportant. Togetright.

Probably won't respond to Boron unless people insist on it since this might get emotionally charged and that would be bad

Itakeissuewiththis. Becauseyouaretrying. Togetherlynched. Ifthingsgooff. Inthatdirection. Thenwhynotcallitoutthen?

Okay, I guess I need to clarify my complete 180 on whether there's anything scummy about BBM's claim. In one of my earlier posts here, I found it suspicious that BBM expected us to appoint him as a Town Leader without proving his innocence. bearclaw replied to it here, agreeing with me, and made several posts that implied that he had analyzed BBM's post, did not find BBM scummy, but disliked his plan. And then he suddenly changed his mind in this post. When I said there was nothing suspicious about BBM, what I meant was that there was nothing new that he has not already thoroughly analyzed before making his vote. Pretty much all of his posts before that point where about that one post of BBM's. BBM hasn't posted at all since then, so I found it very strange that he suddenly changed his mind about being scummy. I got the impression that he was only making that vote because he was being pressured to form concrete reads, because all he was doing was discuss BBM's post while declaring that he didn't find BBM himself scummy.

I do still find BBM a bit suspicious for that roleclaim post. I'm actually not quite sure what outcome he truly intended from that post. I disagree with Kay in that trying to make yourself look good is scummy, because this was early D1, and BBM had absolutely no way of making him look good since there was nothing before that. As scum, he could make that claim and try getting everyone to focus on how to make the Town Leader procedure work, before people question his claim. At the very least, he could have gotten a few claims out of that.

Now, regarding the Boron vs Paperblade discussion, I don't really see what makes Boron scummy. Her vote for bearclaw seemed quite justified, because I found bearclaw's sudden BBM vote very odd as well. btw her re-voting on bearclaw was because somebody pointed out that she did not unvote j00. Boron also stated that she was really busy and stuff, so it makes sense for her to miss some of the details in bearclaw's posts. I'm also not seeing what makes Strege an easy wagon, and she never even voted for Strege to begin with.

Speaking of Strege, I don't see anything wrong with him. His vote on Refa was based on weak reasoning, but it was really early into the game, and Refa's character inquiry was the only thing that bothered him at that point. Refa wasn't pushing for a character claim, he was simply asking a normal question. Strege misinterpreted that and found Refa scummy for character fishing.

Protodefendseveryone. Thisdoesn'thelp. Whoisscum?

Idon'tlike. Howmuchmeta. Stregehasbeenincluding.

Yougetmylist. WhenEliesonfinisheshisreply.

[Paperblade]

You are trying to construe Bearclaw's vote as a pressure vote when he added that in one line after a really long post with his thoughts on BBM

How is this trying to say his vote was never a pressure vote? My point has always been that it was a minor point that she is trying to blow out of proportion

[Paperblade]

And I stopped arguing with Boron because I feel it's not going anywhere. What am I going to do by arguing with her? She's not going to say "Shit you got me I'm scum," the more appropriate thing to do is try to convince others.

[Paperblade]

Also my role is like... loosely related to the flavor, but it's probably the best you can do without making a dumb role.

[Da Bear]

le sigh. Didn't get my computer tonight so no long post yet. I'll attempt something pre-phase end tomorrow., Probably tomorrow afternoon (for reference It's 11:12 where I live rn)

Also my role is like... loosely related to the flavor, but it's probably the best you can do without making a dumb role.

Mine is entirely flavor based

[Grassbridger]

You're drilling me for sounding "overly defensive" because you feel that I could've summed up my statement into "oops sorry you're right" and I decided to post more than that, am I correct on this? I admit when I screw up, and if I have a reason for screwing up then I give it. I know that not everyone will necessarily believe the reasons I give for screwing up, and I can't do anything about it, hence the "I don't care if you believe me or not" because I know it's a possibility that he won't. I really don't see what the problem is.

This feels very nitpicky, especially since you gave no other reasons as to why you dislike me besides this and suddenly I'm second on your lynch list. Looking for things that are "forced" or "off" does find scum, but everyone has their own way of how they respond, and I hope you're not judging my reaction by how you personally would respond in a similar situation. I'd like a bit more of an explanation on how my reaction is "fake" because I feel your "hit all the offended, well-meaning townie" checklist comment is bullshit.

Sort of... when I was reading through, it jumped out at me as having a very different tone than everything surrounding it, both in your back-and-forth with PB and in the post right there. Saying "I don't care if you believe me or not" felt completely unwarranted--had anyone been suggesting they wouldn't believe you that you were busy? I sure didn't see it--and it reminded me of those posts Paperblade linked me to in the graveyard of... uh... my first game back this fall. The ones from Azrael (I think?) that evaluate scumminess. There's something in there that says "people think shutting down discussion is scummy, but getting frustrated over repeating yourself isn't. This person is town." I read a tone like that in your post--only since (as far as I could tell) there was no reason to get frustrated in that way, it was scummy, maybe trying to fake frustrated town. "I will admit right here and now" also seemed like you were making a much bigger deal of your mistake than you needed to. It was strange.

I've not been able to read too much in-depth because I'm dying of homework. To clarify, Proto is the only person I'd definitely be willing to actively support a lynch on right now, but I am planning on rereading you to see if there's anything else that seems scummy. I am more likely to want to lynch you than to want to lynch other people right now, because I have this small suspicion, but I'm not ready to string you up this instant. That wouldn't be an informed decision--tbh I didn't notice you much earlygame, so I need to reread when I have time.

[eclipse]

How is this trying to say his vote was never a pressure vote? My point has always been that it was a minor point that she is trying to blow out of proportion

Idon'tthinkthat. Thispoint. Isaverystrongcase.

And I stopped arguing with Boron because I feel it's not going anywhere. What am I going to do by arguing with her? She's not going to say "Shit you got me I'm scum," the more appropriate thing to do is try to convince others.

Fairenough.

Sort of... when I was reading through, it jumped out at me as having a very different tone than everything surrounding it, both in your back-and-forth with PB and in the post right there. Saying "I don't care if you believe me or not" felt completely unwarranted--had anyone been suggesting they wouldn't believe you that you were busy? I sure didn't see it--and it reminded me of those posts Paperblade linked me to in the graveyard of... uh... my first game back this fall. The ones from Azrael (I think?) that evaluate scumminess. There's something in there that says "people think shutting down discussion is scummy, but getting frustrated over repeating yourself isn't. This person is town." I read a tone like that in your post--only since (as far as I could tell) there was no reason to get frustrated in that way, it was scummy, maybe trying to fake frustrated town. "I will admit right here and now" also seemed like you were making a much bigger deal of your mistake than you needed to. It was strange.

I've not been able to read too much in-depth because I'm dying of homework. To clarify, Proto is the only person I'd definitely be willing to actively support a lynch on right now, but I am planning on rereading you to see if there's anything else that seems scummy. I am more likely to want to lynch you than to want to lynch other people right now, because I have this small suspicion, but I'm not ready to string you up this instant. That wouldn't be an informed decision--tbh I didn't notice you much earlygame, so I need to reread when I have time.

Forsomeonewhoclaims. Tonotreadin-depth. Youarereadingquiteabit. IntoBoron'swords. Idon'tseethatstatement. Asanindicationfoalignment.

StillwaitingforElieson.

[BBM]

I don't buy Proto's explanation for his 180. It seems like backtracking to me. And he's still harping on Bearclaw's thing against me even though Bearclaw has actually made a decent amount of posts since then. If he still finds Bearclaw scummy he should look at his more recent posts. The same thing can be applied to his read on me.

I have a whole lot of townreads and not a lot of scumreads.

Would lynch: Proto > Elie >> SB

Would not lynch: Bearclaw, Strege, Kirsche, Paperblade, Boron

Undecided about Refa; I will read his ISO in the morning and get to that then. Anyone not there is not really under suspicion or a lurker. Also I know I haven't really said much about SB; mainly I agree with what Paperblade has said about him.

[Sunwoo]

Sort of... when I was reading through, it jumped out at me as having a very different tone than everything surrounding it, both in your back-and-forth with PB and in the post right there. Saying "I don't care if you believe me or not" felt completely unwarranted--had anyone been suggesting they wouldn't believe you that you were busy? I sure didn't see it--and it reminded me of those posts Paperblade linked me to in the graveyard of... uh... my first game back this fall. The ones from Azrael (I think?) that evaluate scumminess. There's something in there that says "people think shutting down discussion is scummy, but getting frustrated over repeating yourself isn't. This person is town." I read a tone like that in your post--only since (as far as I could tell) there was no reason to get frustrated in that way, it was scummy, maybe trying to fake frustrated town. "I will admit right here and now" also seemed like you were making a much bigger deal of your mistake than you needed to. It was strange.

1) Explain

2) First, does it being unwarranted necessarily mean it's scummy? Second, I had a (very) slight altercation with bearclaw about my ability and inability to produce content and being busy. People will not always believe "I was busy," to be a valid reason and I can understand that. Hence why I didn't care whether he believed me or not.

3) ... You are saying what I said was scummy ... because YOU couldn't see a reason to get frustrated? Do you ... not see a problem with this? Just because you can't see why something would frustrate someone else, that doesn't mean the person did not have reasons to feel frustrated that were legitimate to them. Also, if you want reasons as to why I would've sounded frustrated, go reread that post.

4) This is how I speak and phrase things. Outside of mafia as well. ;/

[Elieson]

This covers my reread up to #165 (My first Postdump on Page9)

---

Thanks for telling me what a insomniac is guys, I kind of figured as such, but I wanted to make sure.

I'm pretty much against this whole town leader idea as a whole, at least until we have some more info or maybe a confirmation would be best.

I'm still going to abstain for now, I'm not exactly sure that BBM should be lynched especially since he hasn't returned since then, and I'm not feeling a lynch for bear yet either.

I'll probably look over his posts again though, because abstaining leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

This is forced uselessness, which isn't helping at all. Your lack of interest in even throwing pressure votes around is looking bad to me. Like, really bad.

Well look at that ninja.

Actually you make a fine point Mr. Marshmallow, thought I'm still not sure how to feel about you and your actions, it has to be worth giving it a chance.

A chance that could possibly screw the entire town over. But you can't win without taking some risks.

Continuing on the train of nothingness.

BBM could you explain why my push on you is bad? I can

The stuff that BBM's been posting makes me feel better about him but I'm still kind of wary.

A quick re-read has me feeling bad about Boron, she hasn't done much (if anything) so far besides sheeping my wagon for a reason that ignores a lot of what I had said at that point. in other words I'm sheeping paper.

##Unvote

##Vote: Boron

This is where my JSND thing starts to shift. I've been finding him pretty town, but now that I think about it, most of his posts until this very point have been posts featuring nothing but BBM and Rolespec. His only alternative for a votehop is his strikethrough'd one-liner, which is backed up by an actual point an hour later. He made a few good points regarding BBM's role and whatnot, but his content has actually been pretty minimal.

After semi-precious it would be hypocritical of me to feel that way. I understand that busy schedules happen. However you seemed to be around enough to read through and only commented on me, I don't really like this because others were posting.


I dislike your vote on me for a few reasons.
1. You've said nothing else when there was other stuff to be said.
2. Your vote was the 5th (current) on me in the 24 hours since phase start. Only 10~ hours of activity at that point as well. Why did you add another vote to my wagon? Did you think the difference between 4 and 5 votes would get a better reaction? We're obviously not coming close to lynching yet so a votal that high just seems weird. (I'm prob overreacting though because I'm the one being wagoned, this point is kind of meh because of that).
3. It was a really bare vote. You gave one reason (pressure-voting) and then hopped right on my wagon. Again I'm immediately predisposed to dislike that but it still doesn't look like a townie thing to do imo more reasons or more general content would help with this point.
4. It was a misrep. You voted me because I.said it was a pressure vote and then drew the conclusion I wasn't trying to find scum from that when I literally stated that I found BBM more suspicious than anyone else, how does that work? (My main problem)

I'll respond to these, because your numerical list doesn't seem to have as much behind it as you seem to think it does.

1. Have you?
2. Considering the amount of votes needed for a hammer, why is it even a problem?
3. You're using this very same logic right back at Boron
4. You found him suspicious but not necessarily scummy. I think you were focusing on BBM's Role blahblahstuff and less on his content. In 20 minutes you went from BBM isn't scummy at all to LYNCHBBMKTHX. BBM's claim gave us various things to work with and got us out of RVS quickly. TBH i'm still skeptical of his process of claiming, which I'll address later, but more am interested as to when and how exactly his claim was bad? You explained it, i guess, buttttttttt your entire case is built upon his claim, which does not make a case.

Please note that if I comment on activity this is done while not knowing your schedule. I shall not scumhunt by inactivity but I think you guys should all POST MOAR when you can.

1. BBM, His recent content is making me less suspicious of him. How I read your posts will always mean more to me than roles. (unless the role proves something ofc)

2. Marth, POST MOAR

3. Eclipse, ^

4. Rein, His vote on me looks like good scumhunting and I can't fault his reasoning there, tunneling(ish) is still lame though and you have posted when other stuff is around. POST MOAR.

5. Grassy Bridge Er. POST MOAR.

6. This guys is awesome. No doubting it, I can't say I disagree with anything he's said. Shame there's a wagon on him really.

7. j00, POST MOAR.

8. Kay, Mainly a POST MOAR person but she agreed that BBM would do the TOWN LEADER gambit as scum so that's cool (not worth a read though obvsly).

9. Kirsche, I'm null on this guy, I think he scumhunts well enough and his last post made a comment that makes me think he's going to look townie once roles start being outed. (I hope that's not for a while though.)

10. Proto, BBM's statements here are how I'm feeling about him basically. Not ready to say he's scum but he's definitely looking worse than most.

11. Nekorex ,POST MOAR. Didn't even realize you were playing somehow -_-

12. Paperblade, I'm reading Paper as town right now because he's actively contributing a lot more than he did in Fakeclaim, simply providing content.

13. Objection, Hates Bears :'( also POST MOAR

14. Refa, I've responded to his posts and as you can see I don't agree with his logic, that doesn't mean I find him scummy though. He's mainly null rn.

15. Rocker64, Can't say much here. Has made posts and looks like a newb trying to contribute(he is a newb right?). But I think Prims would make him scum just to mess with people saying newbs should be given the benefit of the doubt or something like that recently.

16. Boron, Now that we've cleared things up I no longer find her that scummy. Still a bit worse than null to me but not worth a lynch.

17. SB, Doesn't actually give reasons for voting me at first (didn't realize that at first) and then only explains by saying I'm overreacting. I'm not entirely certain that's a scumtell (I won't argue the logic though, I would like an explanation for the logic). He also isn't really giving any other reads atm despite seeming to have been around (if he wasn't than idk what to think anymore). Definitely finding him scummy.

18. Scorri, Hasn't been around or posted enough content to get a read... so far I don't see a read she's given.Other than reading Eli as old.

19. Shinori, Another person who's existence escaped me. POST MOAR.

20. Strege. His case on Refa seems really... bad. Not really scummy bad but I remember him making much stronger arguments last time he played. Not sure how things are with him. He is at least actively contributing.

21.The Protown SK, LITERALLY HASN'T POSTED. POST A LOT MOAR.

SB > Proto > Boron =BBM (last two would be stretching it rn though)

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

Problems worth pointing out in Purple.

Is Boron more scummy than BBM?

You're null on kirsche, who's scumhunting well FYPOV?

Proto is your second scumread....who isn't looking that bad, yet is scummier than Boron? I don't follow. This looks strange.

Rocker64 waffling is bad.

Useless things pointed out in Red.

I'm feeling a lot worse about JSND at this point.

BBM, the main reason I found your claim suspicious is because not only did you roleclaim in that post, but you even started getting into detailed plans on how we should execute the Town Leader interactions. As if you actually expected us to just blindly trust you like that. If you were going to roleclaim, that's fine. But if you start proposing techniques to make the Town Leader system work, you should be giving us a reason to believe that you're Town. Flimsy reasoning is not inherently scummy, but it implies weak attempts at achieving something.

And yes, I know that bearclaw's vote had nothing to do with Refa, but that was the impression that I got from his posts. He maintained that he did not want BBM to become a Leader while he didn't find BBM suspicious. Then people started voting for him, and bearclaw suddenly changed his mind about BBM and started to vote for him. I got the impression that he wanted to declare a votable scumread because of other people attacking him. His explanation for his BBM vote did not consist of anything that he himself didn't already point out earlier, and BBM has not made any new posts for him to analyze. I don't like that vote, and I would consider bearclaw as being either scum, or a weak Town.

Not sure this is necessarily a valid case, especially the underlined, because various people have voted for BBM. Why is JSND's vote on him suddenly worse than all the others? You're pointing out a flaw in his vote, but not comparing it to any of the other votes on BBM.

Telling the Cop to inspect me would just be potential Tailor bait, and also asking to get inspected is scummy as fuck and I don't trust anyone who does that. Whenever I see someone ask to get inspected, I automatically think GF.

Also it's not my fault you guys are a bunch of atheists.

Telling the cop to inspect you would give a theoretical Tailor someone to target, as well as a theoretical Watcher who could offer backup. If your role works the way it seems to, you can't really be redirected or hooked or driven, so various things could've occured during a night where death isn't an issue. Plz respond to this point, and I'll be through with my bothering of you and your almighty role.

I'm really sorry for inactivity guys. I basically only have time to read the thread when I'm in class or when I should be sleeping. This week has been unexpectedly busy for me, and it will continue to be so until Monday or Tuesday. Considering a sub, but hopefully I'll be able to keep going.

Quick thoughts:

-What worries me about this town-leader setup is that I wouldn't be able to check with other people to figure out what's going on. In Shipping Mafia, Manix was town leader but I could talk to other players at night and figure out what was up/whether to trust him. Here, I'd definitely want some alignment confirmation before claiming, as others have been saying.

-bearclaw certainly seems strange for voting BBM only after being called out on his suspicion, but right now I agree with BBM's "townie/effort" read on him. The vote read to me more as a townie trying to prove a point than scum trying to be consistent.

-Agree with Elie's calling out BBM for lack of N0 sleeptalking and would like an explanation.

-Completely agree with BBM #110. Kirsche's case on Strege seems kind of forced, since I don't see how Strege was pushing a massclaim to BBM, and even if he was it'd only be scummy if he and BBM were scumbuddies (cause scum!Strege would have no reason to encourage a massclaim to town!BBM), so that's a vote based on really weak associative reads without a flip.

##vote: Kirsche

I want to analyze this vote and post more, but need to bounce a few things back and forth. Something doesn't seem right about this...call it my Bizztuition.

I just noticed that I didn't reply to something:

Nope -- I meant the explanation of why I think character claiming makes a difference which I present in that very post, and this is the first post of yours after it.

To clarify my position on Refa (because I don't know if anyone is not misinterpreting my intent) I find him somewhat scummy. In general, I do think that it is a little scummy to fish for information not related to alignment when the town's job, especially this early on, is to scumhunt. I think that asking for information regarding someone's role's flavour to be made public without justification is scummy for the same reason (though not nearly to the same extent) as fishing for mechanical role information, since it can be relevant in the same ways. I think this is a solid basis for an early vote?

Regarding Refa's later posts, I agreed with the initial comment that bearclaw's supposed paranoia about BBM sounded false (to me it sounded... like a guy making downward motions with his hands while trying to cling to authority over a now-raucous mob -- I'm sorry but that's the best way I can find to describe it at this hour) BUT I think his last post supports this with really slippery logic that I think someone has explained somewhere. I would like to hear more, specifically regarding that logic and my earlier question.

NOW ON TO RECENT SUBJECTS my god there are a lot of posts.
-Rein is rubbing me the wrong way for only just having the one constructive post and then being like "hey guys this is great activity for me". Nah son, I wanna see some follow-up.
-Sangyul, why do you find me scummy? As far as I understand it you either disagree with or do not understand my initial position against Refa and also think my arguments have been sparse (yo, I told ya' guys I'm in midterm season (just for D1 luckily) and I'm trying to respond to people with the time I have). Also, how scummy do you find me?
-Elie's following a neat rabbit hole regarding BBM but otherwise has like no opinions? I get the sense he's been around so it seems odd that he can't offer any kind of read on anyone else.
-bearclaw I am okay with despite early stuff. I like his listpost particularly for quantifying most of his reads on active players fairly well.
-Rocker, having no vote and no scumreads, looks supes bad imo. We haven't played together though and from interactions I suspect that I have some responsibility to adapt in this case. Regardless: scumreads please!
-Proto bothers me quite a bit because a lot of his posts have a lot of logical disagreement / discussion of theory / etc and one strong opinion against bearclaw which materialized when bearclaw had 2-3 votes on him. The scum pattern of finding a single hard nail with which to pin yourself to a wagon of about this size is one which I'm familiar with, particularly as it is a strategy I enjoy as scum. I'll need to reread here when I'm cognizant enough to digest a complete paragraph but I want more scumreads elsewhere, or more varied thought processes about bearclaw.

I think that's enough to earn bedtime. Oh, and I don't think that I've been in a game as town where BBM was scum, despite what games people imagine me having participated in.

Don'tmetathehost.


Becausehalfisprovable. Andtherest. ComesfromOCexperience. Whichisapain. Toexplainlikethis.


ThisdealswithOC. Scumwantstobeleader. Tocontrolthegame. GoreadUnicycle.


Iwouldn'tbetyping. Likethis. IfIwasn'tforcedto. Soyesthere. Arepostingrestrictions.


Talkinginthirdperson. Isnotcute.


Mafiaisabout. Learningfromyourmistakes. Whyareyouapologizing?


Whyisthis. Evenrelevant? We'dfindout. OnN1.


IpostwhenIcan. BecauseIabsolutelyrefuse. Topost. Atwork. Reallife. Comesfirst.


Whoareyourscumreads?

AsfortheBBMthing. Ihatemyrole. AsBBM'srole. IsamixofOCandNOC. Ishouldbeableto. Drawsomeofhislogic. Fromthethread. SoifIseeutternonsense. I'llknowit.

Currenltydon'tlike. Thefactthat. There'ssomuchfocusonBBM. Andnotsomuch. Oneveryonelse. Therefore.

##Unvote
##Vote:Elieson

Whoisscum?

IthinkJSND. HasnoNOCexperience. Andhekindaremindsme. OfSwordmasterinUnicycle. Paperbladeshouldstop. BeingsohunguponBBM. Andposthisotherscumreads. Alongwith. RefaRockerscorri. Andwhoeverelse. Imissed. Protoalsolacksscumreads. ButIcan'tvotethatmanypeopleatonce. Manyofyou. Needtoexist.

ThisPRislame.

Relevant because I think that if BBM is trying to run for town leader then he could've handled it better. Even more important, I'm trying to get inside his head and determine a read of town-vs-scum intent behind his claim. If I understand his thought process behind his actions, I can develop a more solid read to combine with his content.

At this moment? Well, wait until the end of this post and you'll see my heirarchy of scumreads.

tl;dr my scumreads include:

Proto

Strege

JSND

Rocker64

(Grass, though I admit this is primarily Gut)

This is actually p. dumb, why would a cop target BBM over anyone else?

also kidnappers are stupid, you should probably kill yourself for suggesting them as a real thing

I think if anyone itg is trying to fearmonger about this town leader plan, it's Elieson

If BBM had claimed this whole leader thing, it'd have made sense for a cop to scan him whether he asked for it or not. Also, read the italicized about 2 inches up for the point of my BBMotorboat.

I will now elaborate on the above:

BBM is right, you never inspect the guy asking to be inspected. That's just sloppy. We can't even trust the guy that's confirming BBM, so why does Elieson think this is a thing that's gonna happen? "BY THE WAY GUYS I WAS INSPECTED BY A COP IN A PRIMS GAME THAT'S TRUSTWORTHY RIGHT?" yeah no, even if there is a cop he probably doesn't even work on half the scum if he even exists (BBM could claim some safeclaim from a scumbuddy cleared him)

##Unvote ##Vote Elieson

You're right, thats a possibility. BUUTTTTTT what makes you think that a cop would fail on scumchecks?

No, this was the towniest thing about his whole claim. He just did something without thinking about whether it would look scummy. Scum, on the other hand, would almost certainly not make such a proposal without thinking a great deal about how it would look, therefore if anything, they'd be much more likely to offer a bunch of justifications right off the bat for why they should be trusted.

This is a good point. Objectively good, but still good.

Also maybe I'm just a derp but I really can't grasp this SB case.

##Unvote

##Vote JSND

[Elieson]

Bah I forgot my scumreadtier

JSND > Rocker64 > Proto / Strege > Grass*

*Checking into this*

Also, reading 166-> now

[eclipse]

WheredidElieson'spostgo?

If I am posting elsewhere or speaking on Skype consistently ... and then try to say that I was not around, you would have a point. However ... if I am consistently not posting anywhere on SF for Skype for an hour or two or more, then I am not available to be posting. My unvote and re-vote on you was literally a span of 12 minutes, which is not quite so much. I had missed quite a lot, and I was struggling to understand it all. You need to look at gaps between times more closely before accusing someone of purposely not posting.

Idon'thaveyouonSkype. SoallI'dseeisyourposts. Butthisdoesn'taccount. Forthosetimeswhenyouread. Anddon'tlogin. Eitherway. Thisshouldn'thavetobeargued. Unlessthere'slinks. Provingotherwise.

Responding to bits in rough order: Having conviction when you're in over your head intellectually is The Worst Thing -- seriously. I didn't realize that you were connecting my bear and Refa comments to my BBM opinion though, which makes more sense. However, at that point BBM's claim was the only interesting thing occurring so I'm obviously going to look at people's reactions to it for reads. I didn't look for people being too trusting because I honestly thought that super trusting was the norm. I realize this is an awful set of thought processes and yeah I'm that bad at anything glancing on OC.

Forgottorespond. Tothis. Whyareyoutrying. Toactlikethenorm? Thisdoesn'tsitrightwithme. DoingwhatIcan. Tohelptownwin. Ismoreimportant. Thanthenorm.

YayEliesonresponse. I'mgonnaparse. Acoupleofthings.

I want to analyze this vote and post more, but need to bounce a few things back and forth. Something doesn't seem right about this...call it my Bizztuition.

Ireadthroughthequotedpost. Grasspost. Justaguess. ButIthink. It'stheamountofagreement. Inthebulletpoints. Andtheonlydisagreement. Isn'taimed. Atanyone.

Relevant because I think that if BBM is trying to run for town leader then he could've handled it better. Even more important, I'm trying to get inside his head and determine a read of town-vs-scum intent behind his claim. If I understand his thought process behind his actions, I can develop a more solid read to combine with his content.

Thathelps. Alotmore. NowIthink. Iknowwhereyou'recomingfrom.

SinceIthink. Iunderstand. Elieson'slogic. Mystrongestread. Haschanged.

##Unvote

##Vote:Grassbridger

Impressivenitpicking. OnBoron'spost. Despiteclaiming. Tonotreadstuffin-depth.

Idon'tmind. LynchingRefa. Becausehislastusefulpost. Wasthis. Ialsodon'tmind. LynchingStrege. Becausehehas. Relativelylittlescumhunting. Inhisotherwiselongposts. Alongwith. Themetaproblem.

Iwouldrather. TheoreticalvigshootProto. Becausehispostssofar. Arebusydefendingpeople. Whichdoesn'treallyhelp. Associativereadsasmuch.

[Elieson]

Shit guys my eyes bleed wtf.

I don't agree with the case on Strege. Strege's vote on Refa isn't really substantial but the paranoia is understandable- even I'd vote Refa for character-fishing... well I thought I would've, until Eli's recent post reminded me that this is Choose Your Own Role Mafia. I'm willing to give Strege the benefit of doubt.

##Vote:Proto

Don't like that flip flop from suspicious-->no reason to suspect--> suspect again.

Elieson thinking BBM should've asked for a cop scan N0 is not really suspicious to me, but the recent post where he sustains his vote on Strege isn't working for me either. The first sentence says he didn't expect to sustain his vote on Strege. And see, I was expecting him to elaborate on that immediately, but then he quotes bearclaw in the middle of that entire post? Actually there are too many quotes of other posters(especially bearclaw) and this feels so scattered I can't really take your reads seriously.

The irony of that post of yours is that you talk so much about bearclaw but he doesn't feature in your read list(he's just lumped with 'People' under 'Not Scum'), but the first time you talk about proto, he's on the leaning scum side?

kisrche's paranoia earlier was bugging me but his recent posts seem better. Besides that, I think if kirsche was scum he'd have shown us the finger and gone inactive by now.

Bearclaw's paranoia about BBM was buggin me too but that list post doesn't look like it'd come from nubscumclaw so I'm willing to think he's town for now.

Since I'm actually rereading the thread instead of just rolling ISOs, my reads are building in a more scattered manner. After rolling a few ISOs and finding people generally blah, I decided to reread the thread and check everything out, especially replies in recent context. It's helping, albeit more time consuming. You should see now that I've changed my thoughts on JSND, but I think it's important that my entire thought process on him is conveyed, because he's one of the more controversial players at this point IMO.

*facedesk* And then I see the disclaimer and the end of Eli's post that he read until Pg.5 . Meh, I think I'll wait and see what happens.

derp

why does bearclaw want all of the votes on him to be at the length of the entire works of shakespeare 24 hours after the game start

I read kirsche's #97 as kind of sarcastic myself, as a way to illustrate why we can't trust BBM right away.

A sensible amount of resistance in my book is just saying no and explaining why. DA BEAR blew that completely out of proportion and thought BBM was scummy for it despite the fact that multiple other townies have done it in the past. Scum have too, but it's a null tell, not a scumtell.

I'm sorry for not being online at 2:30am? That's a pretty weak suspicion.

Actually, I did. They're here, where I didn't like how you discreditted your own case and I felt like your reaction to BBM asking to be town leader was over the top and you were really worried about an organized town.

I'm also not sure why you expect people to have multitudes of reads early day 1. I also don't like how you seem to be willing to lynch BBM still after saying that his role doesn't matter and that your opinion on him is improving but you haven't actually said why he's scum.

You claim to be suspicious of BBM's actions, but how does anything you've talked about make him scum? The bolded in particular.

Why not just scummy? This feels like you're covering your tracks here.

I don't like this. First off it feels like it's twisting Eli's intentions here to make it sound as if Eli found BBM scummy for it. Second, why does it need an explanation as to why he didn't use it? This goes for Elieson too.

Strege's point on Rein in #146 bugs me. It feels like he was attacking Rein for making a joke over something actually scummy.

I don't get the accusation that I'm lurking hard? I have sleep, school and other stuff to do as well and we're not even 48 hours into the game. That just feels like grasping.

Don't really like Kay's case on me either. I've already mentioned the lurker thing, but those posts aren't even contradictions. I never said that claiming to BBM was a bad idea if he ended up cleared somehow. What I was implying is that his role was as broken as DA BEAR seemed to think it was as Prims would've balanced the setup to not be completely broken by a town leader strategy. Even if it doesn't break the game it can still be useful though, but obviously can have side effects such as people relying on investigations to lead lynches. Please don't take my posts out of context.

Content with my vote atm.

First off, I found BBM's claim and all to be suspicious, but I didn't necessarily find him scummy for it. Secondly, he should explain why he didn't use it because IMO there are ways it could've been beneficial for town (or rather, detrimental for scum) for BBM to announce his role N0, on a night where death is a nonissue, because if he's going for town leader, he should probably be proactive and utilize every bit of his role in order to do so.

I want people to comment on my Boron read.

I can acknowledge it, but I really don't agree with it.

@SB- These are two of Elie's posts asking about why I didn't post N0. I do in fact think that this is a bit of a push by Elie on me, especially those bolded bits. They go beyond commenting on the faulty execution of my plan and edge into finding me suspicious for it. So I don't think that Grass is misrepping or twisting Elie's words by implying Elie is, at the least, wary of me. Also, when he lists me under some of his reads later in his quote dump, he has me as "forced neutral" which doesn't really make sense to me. People are treating the bid for town leader as null, maybe, but that doesn't mean that they can't scumread me or townread me for other reasons.

WRT my pushing on you, I'm tr- well hell I explained it one post ago. Getting inside your head to understand you and your thought processes will help me develop a better read on you. The more I can learn from you by reading your responses to my questioning-your-claim-execution, the better stuff i have to combine with your content.

As far as Forced Neutral goes; you do know what I mean by that right? There's null like, not having a read at all on someone who hasn't posted yet, and there's Forced Neutral, which means there's conflicting reasons between a townread and a scumread that are weighing against eachother. I guess you can boil it down to "Eli's waffling on a BBM read", but I'm trying to extract more from the source to develop my read, rather than just saying "Yo, BBM's null because he could be scum for X but could be town for Y."

Tbf I don't really see Boron's and Paperblade's cases on each other. Boron's case on bearclaw earlier- she's capable of doing this as either alignment. If you looked at fakeclaim mafia you'd know she generally is paranoid of noob!scum. I can't see Boron's case on Paper either because its partially because of the Elieson vote(which I agree with), and the later half I actually disagree with because I think he has been addressing his concerncs with other players and finds them somewhat scumm(at least it looks like that to me.) I think this is in-town fighting.

I'd currently be fine with lynching Eli(I still don't agree with his Strege vote) or Proto(for reasons I've said earlier). Don't have a third candidate because I thinkk its still to early in the phase but w/e.

[spoiler=My quoted responses to Strege, organized for your convienence]

Strege, on 22 Oct 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

I'm wondering why you asked BBM to character claim, as a quick reread would show that he had not done so explicitly and his claimed abilities are very provable.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Refa

Seriously, you voted Refa for this, implying a scumread on him. This is horribad pressure and you should be kicked in the chin for suggesting it.

Wait, is this an actual scumread of yours? I think it is, and I find it scummy to have such a vote-worthy scumread on a simple question that doesn't really mean anything unless you're basing scumhunting on flavorspec, which seems distracting more than anything else.

Strege, on 22 Oct 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

I find asking for a character claim odd because it's revealing information unnecessarily. There have been several roles that care about flavour/character (examples exist in Toonami and Avatar mafia if I'm not mistaken). Flavour can also hint at abilities (and we don't know that BBM is

fully claimed). Flavour fishing is generally not the worst, but it seems like a fine thing to inquire about at this stage. I don't find Refa scummy but I'm interested in his response to my explanation.

Personally I don't think BBM would play this as a scum gambit, though a little doubt is usually healthy. I don't really understand town leader setups in general but I feel like the risk of implicating his scumbuddies would grow fairly quickly if scum!BBM started calling shots.

JSND, do you have any minor scumreads at this point? I can't expect much from anyone early on but it makes me slightly uneasy that you're spending a lot of your posts ensuring that people don't pass BBM off as town, but without opining about or questioning him or anyone else.

Flavor hunting is bad, man, and you're doing it. Toonami definitely did (uhh, I hosted it, I should know), and IIRC eclipse's mafia (I can't remember what it's called) had a flavor cop in it, but it's still no reason to find someone scummy IMO.

Also, you don't find him scummy, but voted for him.....meaning.....you find him scummy enough to maintain a vote on him....ok?

Re your BBM & JSND points. You literally contradicted yourself here. You ask JSND to post scumreads, then give him a reason not to have any. Then you bring up that doubting BBM is a fine move, but then get "slightly uneasy" with JSND being equally suspicious of BBM. All you've done is question why Refa asked BBM's character, and talked about his role. You're not in a position to talk.

So why exactly are you voting for me again? You either disagree with my vote on Strege so strongly that you think I'm scum, or you don't like how I organized my thoughts in my post where I maintained my Strege vote (which is in Chronological order, it's not that difficult to grasp, is it?) Please explain this, because you're pretty much babbling out a scumread on me without any actual reasoning.

Okay, I guess I need to clarify my complete 180 on whether there's anything scummy about BBM's claim. In one of my earlier posts here, I found it suspicious that BBM expected us to appoint him as a Town Leader without proving his innocence. bearclaw replied to it here, agreeing with me, and made several posts that implied that he had analyzed BBM's post, did not find BBM scummy, but disliked his plan. And then he suddenly changed his mind in this post. When I said there was nothing suspicious about BBM, what I meant was that there was nothing new that he has not already thoroughly analyzed before making his vote. Pretty much all of his posts before that point where about that one post of BBM's. BBM hasn't posted at all since then, so I found it very strange that he suddenly changed his mind about being scummy. I got the impression that he was only making that vote because he was being pressured to form concrete reads, because all he was doing was discuss BBM's post while declaring that he didn't find BBM himself scummy.

I do still find BBM a bit suspicious for that roleclaim post. I'm actually not quite sure what outcome he truly intended from that post. I disagree with Kay in that trying to make yourself look good is scummy, because this was early D1, and BBM had absolutely no way of making him look good since there was nothing before that. As scum, he could make that claim and try getting everyone to focus on how to make the Town Leader procedure work, before people question his claim. At the very least, he could have gotten a few claims out of that.

Speaking of Strege, I don't see anything wrong with him. His vote on Refa was based on weak reasoning, but it was really early into the game, and Refa's character inquiry was the only thing that bothered him at that point. Refa wasn't pushing for a character claim, he was simply asking a normal question. Strege misinterpreted that and found Refa scummy for character fishing.

Is this currently the flip in your flipflop of BBM reads? This seems to be the part where you finally say "BBM is leaning scum IMO".

There's a lot more to Strege than what you've just addressed. Have you even looked beyond the first 1/3 of today?

Have you looked into anyone else, actually?

This sounds overly defensive over something that was not that bad. "Oops, sorry, you're right" somehow got stretched into 3 lines with an admission of guilt, an excuse, and a defiant "I don't care what you think." Seems like fluff and also trying to hit all the "offended, well-meaning townie" checklist items (emphasis on trying). It felt fake.

Glad you clarified that, Proto. So you find who scummy? Oh, thanks for laying it out: nobody, except BBM for role reasons.

This sums up my read on Proto quite nicely, actually.

More to the point of highlighting this post though, the bolded portion. Is Boron really the only person who's hitting a single "well-meaning townie"? This strikes me as contrived and really imples that you're more focused on maintaining a tunnel, by not seeing or acknowledging any other players who are doing the same thing. This entire paragraph goes along to boost my gut-suspicion on Grass.

---

and that's up to #206/#223. My vision is getting blurry, so you get the rest when I wake up

[Sunwoo]

Just finished a quick reread of the thread and several peoples' ISOs.

My statements on Paperblade still stand. I don't like how he discredits my push on Strege as pushing on an "easy wagon". Nor do I like the reasoning he gave for Strege being an easy wagon ("he's new and getting panicky over inconsequential stuff"), and he missed that I never actually voted Strege yet. I also feel that he either blowing my initial bearclaw vote out of proportion or taking it out of context and twisting it, and that he's not actually responding to my rebuttals to him.

Strege's earlier tunnel on Refa over asking BBM for his character claim still bothers me a bit, but his latest content post looks all right. I'll have to reread his and kirsche's interactions again when it's not past midnight, though, to see how much I agree or don't agree with his case on kirsche.

Refa's earlier posts didn't look scummy to me. I mean, I didn't agree with some of his logic, but I wasn't reading it as scummy or as having scum intent. Would like to see him post the reads that he said he would, now that more stuff has happened in the game. Would also like bearclaw to post more content and reads when he is able to, especially since I found his list post to be a bit lacking.

Proto, who do you think is scum? I am still not 100% clear on your stance on BBM. You disagreed with Paperblade's vote on me and (sort of) defended my suspicions on Strege, and then you say that you don't know what is making Strege look bad? Your vote is still on Shinori from RVS as well.