Big NOCers - Game Over

[Vhaltz]

It's pretty much 11PM so even if I wanted to I don't really have the time to talk about them now, don't think they'll get themselves lynched anyway unless really dumb things happen so eh

See you in some other game guys, I learned my lesson to not sign up for a game when I know it's going to get busy, I was just glad I was invited and wanted to participate I guess

@Prims Requesting replacement

[Prims]

~ DAY 2 ~

Unlike town, it appears that scum doesn't pass up on a good offer when they see one, as they got one knife in Paperblade's back absolutely free.

Paperblade - Billy Mays - Town Inventor - killed Night 1

BUT I'M NOT DONE YET

Aside from Paper's body, town also discovered a lovingly-crafted comic with some interesting things to say about Day 1:

It is now Day 2. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. You have until 6:00 PM on Saturday in PST to decide on a lynch.

Elieson replaces Vhaltz, effective immediately.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Prims

[Paperblade]

BILLY MAYS... no longer here

[Scarlet]

I'm here and I have no idea what's going on. Give me a bit to re-read some D1 stuff.

[Refa]

I never knew Billy Mays was an inventor! Hopefully Paperblade's reads weren't horrible and he gave a townie some awesome invention. Don't think the person should claim unless it benefits town, but obvious statement is obvious. Anyways...

##Vote: eclipse

Let's get things started. In addition to what I said before, Vhaltz brought up some good points during the night phase. Also I do want to say that I'm not bothered by Manix claiming a role that doesn't do much because my perspective should be obvious? Also only one person died, so either our vigilante/SK got roleblocked or scum's the only one with the kills. : <

[Elieson]

Fuck I lost my post already.

I've been turboreading and I'm thinking:

Town/Null
Nah don't need to share that thank you very much

Scum
-Balcerzak

-BBM
-eclipse
-Kaoz

and while I'd like to vote Kaoz, it's probably going to get absolutely nowhere because Kaoz never posts ever

##Vote eclipse

Let's g

[Elieson]

*derp*

o. Though I'm only seriously up to Page 12

[spoiler=My notes over the past little while up to now]#55 Manix find Conq's "Claim" worth noticing

BBM Brings attention right back to him, throwing posts out quickly. Staged scumbussing?

Raymond's #76->#77 looks town to me

#80 Kaoz looks like mindless prodding rather than scumhunting, when he's got nothing relevent to post?

People don't like Vhaltz's reaction test. So? Discussion came up...kinda similar to what I do all the time ugh

Refa v eclipse #96-#99 is lame intown bickering because Refa's getting picked on for voting his top scumread, while still getting reactions from eclipse without even having to apply votepressure.

Conqueror's "I wanna get voted" thing is weird because of how vague it is. I blame prims for the role. Probably town on merit of being a pain in the ass with his claim mechanics rather than what the role actually does

#131 eclipse seems to know too much about Conq's role. Wat is this even?

at #150, still can't get a clear read on J00 and Strege. Page 8 is a headache to read

j00 is fighting over the reaction test, and it feels like he's just looking for reasons to keep Vhaltz under the spotlight

#176 Kaoz Prod-dodge is...well, pretty prod-dodgy.

SB's Self-meta analysis comes across as town. He usually uses it as arguments to catch scum; i don't see him slipping up on that himself if he were scum

Rayray in #179 looking eh. post reads as forced, and townposts aren't often forced unless pressured. Balcerzak should probably have posted again by now

#183 eclipse explodes. I feel like something is here, but **-->REREAD THIS LATER<-**

#185 yep balc should post. Glad I'm not the only oen who thinks so. Why is that a "wierd question"?

Actually, Balc's lack of posting reminds me of SFMM2 where he was scum. That was years ago though

Quickthough: J00 and Manix posting instead of sleeping screams effort. <--This means something, but I can't think of what right now

#208 is a shitty Rayray listpost, and I don't find it overly helpful, since everything he listed is so generalized.

#226 was entirely useless juicepeak (j00-speak. Get it?) Yea, that tier list is unnecessary effort. Actually looks like forced town behavior (what's the reason for this Tier list?) Sleep posts though indicate town, so j00's just leaning town to me

#232, j00 > Manix (town-o-meter)

-if 2250 dies, I know why

#244, j00Waffle and Defeatist on Refa. Not finding this post that valuable exclusively for the vhaltz comment though

[Refa]

Your eclipse read is in line with Vhaltz's, and the two inactives being on your list I'll chalk to differences in scumhunting (I put them as null, but lurk scum has screwed me over before so maybe I should stop doing that), but I'd like to know your reasoning regarding BBM considering your former slotholder was townreading him (and so am I). The only thing you say in your notes post about him is that he possibly stage bussed (what is that even) Manix? Even though you read Manix as town later on?

Also why do you think that there four scum? Like I'm sure it's possible but that seems like a strange logical leap to make at this juncture...

[Grace]

yeah i figured out during the night that my role is practically worthless except to find lying scum. i kinda targeted a bit randomly bc of that (since there would be a major lack of vanillas). i successfully got An Result on a player (which I don't know if people want me to say who my target was, but I can if people want)

and #lazymanix always kicks in during night phase and i never reread then. i have Work to do as well in my break so I can't really do it now.

##Vote: Refa

going to return to my end of phase vote and stuff 4 now

[Elieson]

I just got clarity on something too

My night action "did not occur yet", meaning it was delayed apparently.

Also;

My notes also looked like this before I subbed in:

Town:
-X
-X
-X
-X

Null
-X
-X
-X
-X

Scum
-Balcerzak
-eclipse
-BBM
-Kaoz

I seriously can't even place X anywhere

so I'm just arranging them in a High-Medium-Low order.

As for BBM being scummy and Manix not

I'm still trying to interpret/believe Manix's claim, but that BBM thing early game left a sour taste in my mouth, and he's done nothing to really improve from there that I can tell. Manix has a claim that's left me wondering right now, but BBM, nadda.

For the record, Vhaltz didn't leave any notes in his RolePM as to his thoughts or why he targetted who he targetted

[Scarlet]

I seriously don't know what to make of Vhaltz/Elieson. Like, my read on him keeps doing a 180°, just like the quality of his posts seems to do. Some of his posts seemed very opportunistic and overall rather weak, while his more recent ones (the ones at night especially) were pretty reasonable and seemed genuine for the most part, although I'm somewhat bothered by the fact that after I've mentioned their buddying, he and SB both started distancing themselves from each other.

Don't want to lynch him today.

PEDIT: Although I like how Elie calls me out for making a "shitty listpost" and then proceeds to make two himself.

and while I'd like to vote Kaoz, it's probably going to get absolutely nowhere because Kaoz never posts ever

What does him posting have to do with lynching him? Like, if you think a pressure vote would be useless, okay, but if you're reading him as scum anyway, why not vote to actually lynch him?

For now, though,

##Greet: Manix

He never really existed D1 unless people were considering him as a potential lynch target, and his defenses were pretty terrible - like, "not me over me" is a null tell in itself because nobody wants to get lynched, but it didn't really look like he even cared WHO else got lynched. Also, considering the ruleset explicitely states every player has at least one ability, I'm inclined to call BS on his claim, as much as I could see Prims adding such a role just to be a huge troll.

Also, Kaoz and Bal really need to post. Being busy is one thing, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. Honestly, at this point I wouldn't be opposed to applying some pressure to them (or maybe only to Kaoz, considering Bal actually got prodded).

Some signs of life from Strege would also be nice.

[BBM]

I don't think I've ever 180d on someone as fast as I just did on the Vhaltz/Elie slot since Manix in Shipping.

Elie's thoughts are all over the place in a bad way and none of his suspicions make any sense. There's such a huge disconnect in places that it looks really forced. He says Eclipse vs Refa is intown bickering and then proceeds to vote her for... what? Knowing too much about Conq's role? Not only is that pushing reads without a flip, it doesn't even work unless Elie thinks Conq is scum, which he doesn't. "Exploding" in 183, except all Elie says about what that means is that he'll get back to it later. And one other post where she's waffly on j00 and defeatist on Refa- why does that overcome the supposedly in-town bickering earlier? Bal suspicion is a suspicion for an inactive (for no other reason than being inactive) disguised as a meta scumread. Kaoz, who's his top scumread, is basically the same except without even hiding behind a meta read + one barely-out-of-RVS post. Suspicion on me is lol and classified as staged scumbussing between me and Manix, who is Elie's townread. He says that even though Manix is probably not scum because of the claim, he still has a sour taste in his mouth about me except how can he if Manix isn't scum anymore?

##Vote: Elie

I gave a PR to j00. I realized later that giving a PR to somebody who has to spampost is rather cruel and unusual punishment, even if she does end up being scum, but couldn't think of anyone better to target and didn't want to idle. You should probably see my role shortly.

[Refa]

I'd sheep that.

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

I sheeped that. But seriously, to further elaborate, I agree with you about the disconnect between what he's saying and his lynch priority. And Kaoz being his top scumread despite having done not really much of anything just seems a bit too lazy? Already mentioned what else bothered me about him before.

##Greet: Manix

He never really existed D1 unless people were considering him as a potential lynch target, and his defenses were pretty terrible - like, "not me over me" is a null tell in itself because nobody wants to get lynched, but it didn't really look like he even cared WHO else got lynched. Also, considering the ruleset explicitely states every player has at least one ability, I'm inclined to call BS on his claim, as much as I could see Prims adding such a role just to be a huge troll.

Pretty sure he wanted me lynched by the end of D1?

[Elieson]

I took 90% of those notes before I even had a RolePM, so you're pretty much saying that my pre-/in notes don't make sense...which, fine ok Also I'm intentionally trying to get people to dislike me so that way I can come back at endgame and be the unexpected hero that town needs but doesn't deserve

I feel like Balc's actual content post was just a rehash of everything that was commented on up until that point. Well, minus the Vhaltz Reaction test thing. I stand by my ancestor's reaction test because it got shit happening, and that's what needs to happen.

Suspicion on me is lol and classified as staged scumbussing between me and Manix, who is Elie's townread. He says that even though Manix is probably not scum because of the claim, he still has a sour taste in his mouth about me except how can he if Manix isn't scum anymore?

Where did I say I didn't think Manix wasn't scum? I didn't blatantly say Manix was town, but I'm pretty sure that if you read my notes, you'd see that I have a growing suspicion of Manix being scum. You're putting words in my mouth.

Catching up; Let's take a closer look at what you've said and done

still time?

##Unvote, ##Vote: Conq

This vote is

Wait, what the heck even is this vote? Conq declared like two times that he needs 4 votes to make his thing work. A last second vote/unvote like that isn't helpful in the least

More to come, after I save update my Dreamweaver

[Refa]

This vote is

Wait, what the heck even is this vote? Conq declared like two times that he needs 4 votes to make his thing work. A last second vote/unvote like that isn't helpful in the least

More to come, after I save update my Dreamweaver

Pretty sure that's what BBM was going for.

[Conqueror]

Wait, what the heck even is this vote? Conq declared like two times that he needs 4 votes to make his thing work. A last second vote/unvote like that isn't helpful in the least

Shh, don't tell anyone I said so, but the votes are actually cumulative.

Vanilla cop in a game with no vanillas won't even catch any scum fakeclaims (what scum claims vanilla in a role madness game) and since I don't see a town vanillizer running around (they'd have to be compulsive to have any chance of effecting the game imo) and any townie is going to claim when they've been vanilllized. Can someone with Manix scumclaim meta tell me if he goes for the weird claims as scum or stuff like doc/cop etc?

Elieson's disconnects and all that being pointed out is cool except: I still don't really think Vhaltz was scum and given they're the same slot the alignment hasn't changed. And every time I've seen one of those mass noteposts they've been disorganized as heck (which is why I ignore them and people should stop posting them). Although why exactly are you voting eclipse, Elie? The catch-up post was basically useless to me wrt that.

[Grace]

i have a little time

conq: normally i claim whatever a given fakeclaim is, if any. pretty sure in games without fakeclaims i claim something related to my own role, sooo

it's also possible for scum to fake being vanillized, on the assumption there is a scum vanillizer (which is probably a thing). basically i can go check the people who claim vanillized to actually see if they are lying or not. i know it's not terribly useful but seriously, refa is basically claiming vanilla announcer at this point so I fail to see why my role is improbable in the setup that we know of currently.

[Grace]

@raymond: refa already pointed it out but i did want refa lynched at the end of D1 after speedreading during that time. remember my distinct lack of time didn't allow me to get much time to get reads in the first place. so you're wrong.

[Refa]

I don't get how my role is vanilla? Like it has an active night action, unless I'm misunderstood what you've meant by vanilla this whole time.

[Grace]

i say vanilla announcer in the sense of "announcer with nothing else" (aka i would still get a result that is "not vanilla")

clarity is important

[Conqueror]

Manix: Oh, I thought that was a mod post, oops. Anyway, could you summarize why you're voting Refa this time?

##Vote: Strege imo

basically voteparked on j00 with an outdated case while tossing out side stuff that he didn't really engage in. Wanna hear from him what the point was of his Manix paragraph in #245 when it addressed Manix in a way that didn't conclude anything, except at the end he says he's not actually stoked about a Manix lynch anyway. I don't know how to phrase this, but the line of questioning popped up right after people started actually looking into Manix as a lynch target again and it bugs me in a weird way. I'll try to rephrase this later.

BBM looks fine to me, don't know what deal people (aka Elie) have with him?

[Strege]

First of all I'd like to apologize for my activity so far. I knew I'd be busy for a while but I clearly made some poor estimations.

I'd also like to apologize to the people who have trouble with my formatting. The following will probably be of no service to you (I am open to criticism though).

SB: (get ready for nitpicking) (scumread here)

-> Paying more attention to post orders, I feel like his early vote on Manix (61) for being overdefensive to BBM was a little premature -- it was one sentence versus two. I can see the hypothetical ringing alarm bells a little but that's mentioned later so :/ .

-> Not a fan of the early Vhaltz case (81) either since he criticizes him for making up "a case for the sake of having a case" and saying BBM didn't need much reason to hold a vote on ED1... which are very similar ideas (so absolving BBM and criticizing Vhaltz pings me a little). He also misses the point that Vhaltz's vote didn't have to do with the validity of BBM's initial vote -- Vhaltz criticized the legitimacy and adamant-ness of BBM's follow-up. This arrow is fairly insignificant, but worth mentioning as it does affect my read.

-> In post 93 SB adds another thing to his Manix case while defending himself from a vote from eclipse based on his initial case being forced (the issue being the framing of this new evidence as justification for the old reasoning) (he did post on Manix in between and didn't mention this either). :/

-> Not sure what to think of 124. The Refa read is okay since he didn't say he was scumreading eclipse (and that whole thing was strange anyway) but there's also idle questioning on Vhaltz (he could literally just say "I was not at the computer" in response as scum) and Paperblade, and dropping the Manix suspicion citing specific reason (I don't see how it addresses SB's concerns).

-> In 142 he doesn't see townie intent in Scarlet empty unvoting but doesn't seek scum intent (who da eff runs people up for holding votes when they aren't posting anyway?). This bugs me a bit.

-> I don't really understand the comment about Refa in 177? if it is citing 159 than I cannot see that as a hypothetical thing; that is an attack.

-> Altogether it's really hard to figure out where SB's reads are, and they are often weak or disappear quickly or whatever. He said not being explicit about his reads is a playstyle thing but I can't gather /anything/. If I had to ask about someone in particular it would be Refa I suppose?

Eclipse: (scumread)

-> Her suspicions float around. As a reminder, her vote goes from SB to Refa (with some comments on j00 afterward) to Vhaltz (I don't understand why but ok) (though please explain why); I think she really doesn't pursue her reads on Refa or Vhaltz (I don't have a problem with her SB vote though, and the Paperblade vote belongs to the endgame brouhaha that I can't immediately pull anything from).
-> I just noticed that after voting SB for jumping on Manix she doesn't say anything about the fact that Refa sheeped SB's case (self-admittedly). There was an intersecting period when eclipse was suspicious of SB and Refa when this could have come up but didn't, and I would like to ask why.

-> In the end, her saying she wants to vote Refa most of all makes no sense. Why? Maybe it's because I don't understand the first sentence of 183 at all. -> In her last post of D1 (244) she does talk about j00 and Vhaltz too but can't pin them to any place on the scumspectrum. This is mostly a point against her in its representation of how her read on them has been so empty.

[Strege]

@Conq: Regarding my post 245, I was answering Manix's 203. I copypasta'd the following from a previously prepared post, and will post the rest in a sec once it's linked up. I'll also post some junk about Manix from my notes before I got to bed (I'm not caught up on him). I think you said something else about me too so give me a sec to read D2 if I missed something.

@Conq (and mootly Vhaltz): 4-5 scumreads is pretty normal for me after ED1. The j00 vote was based on a variety of things that I mentioned but was 24 hours out of date because of poor scheduling IRL -- I still felt okay with it though based on a skim. The reason I only addressed questions to me and pursued questions I had asked previously is because those are ways in which the game cannot progress without my agency, whereas I can always hope that my scumreads will keep talking. To me, it was the most productive use of my limited time.

[Grace]

Manix: Oh, I thought that was a mod post, oops. Anyway, could you summarize why you're voting Refa this time?

#154 doesn't actually explain why you voted sb over me (in the next post), except one bit in

Also this just seems like a weaker case than your other two suspicions (Vhaltz and me) overall.

this quote. seems like a weak vote under the guise of :words: that don't achieve much

#268 has an eclipse vote doesn't doesn't consider the circumstances; eclipse apparently didn't have the time to create a full case after a reread, and voting to get a lynch happening isn't inherently scummy when one will not be around for phase end

eclipse's vote only looks as forced as the time constraints on it; which means even if it does look a bit forced (which i don't agree with), circumstances dictate more than you're considering

this is mostly it.

@refa: i know you're not bothered by my claim, but do you still think i'm scummy?

[Elieson]

Shh, don't tell anyone I said so, but the votes are actually cumulative.

Vanilla cop in a game with no vanillas won't even catch any scum fakeclaims (what scum claims vanilla in a role madness game) and since I don't see a town vanillizer running around (they'd have to be compulsive to have any chance of effecting the game imo) and any townie is going to claim when they've been vanilllized. Can someone with Manix scumclaim meta tell me if he goes for the weird claims as scum or stuff like doc/cop etc?

Elieson's disconnects and all that being pointed out is cool except: I still don't really think Vhaltz was scum and given they're the same slot the alignment hasn't changed. And every time I've seen one of those mass noteposts they've been disorganized as heck (which is why I ignore them and people should stop posting them). Although why exactly are you voting eclipse, Elie? The catch-up post was basically useless to me wrt that.

Are you being serious about cumulative votes?

If so, I'm spamming Vote/Unvote just to speed things up

I don't like how she waved off BBM's "tryhard" efforts, I think it's weak how she's voting for Refa primarily because Refa's not voting for her (WIFOM), and pretty much her entire followthrough wrt Refa. I'm probably lingering on the BBM-Manix pokefest, but the only thing that really shook me from it was Manix's clami. I did just notice how she dropped a Voteworthy scumread on me/Vhaltz, and I find her very last post to be jawdroppingly noncommittal with her vote for Paperblade. Keep in mind, she unvoted for lynch consolidation purposes, but then said that to get a better read on me, that she'd like to see Kaoz shot. She went from a vote to a waffle, and maybe I'm just bias because it was technically on me last phase, but I don't understand how her Vhaltz read's development, and I can't see town thought for presenting such an allovertheplace thought pattern regarding a top scumread at consolidation time.