CYOU'RE - Game Over

[Randa]

okay just so it doesn't look like i flaked i am still writing the post. its just like really friking long cause otherwise id have like a hundred posts.

[Randa]

Dormio's Shin case is actually pretty good. Not interested in lynching Dormio at all at this point, and as usual people should sheep me on everything. Randa's actually got done the analysis I wanted and everything seems fine, so I'm happy:

##Unvote

##Vote:Shin

Sheeping Dormio's case for the most part, would like to know why scum would "skirt around the issue and deny things". I don't know what he means by "denying things" so I'd like clarification on that.

Mancer needs to clear up his opinions. First he's like "I don't like how Dormio is proceeding with the day" then goes "I agree [that scum wouldn't force a case this early]" then says that Dormio is his strongest case after making a point against Randa.

*insert comment about using self-meta not being scummy here*

People other than Randa/Dormio/Mancer need to post. SB/Shin where you at, you can't hide behind timezones while I'm about.

so overall this post is actually pretty good, but it begs the question, was the only reason you were scumreading me was because i hadn't caught up yet.

Playing the victim does you no favours. I voted you because I have legitimate reasons to why you look bad. If I were intent on joining the wagon for the sake of it, the chances are that I wouldn't be bringing anything new to it. Still, this vote feels like a kneejerk and it's still early in the game. My main gripe with the self-meta mention is that it seems like "I voted scum during RVS once, I was town then, I'm town now" more than a counter to BBM's post.

Dormio, now kirsche has outright said that he's miller, have your views changed? I took his initial comment as essentially a claim, but I'm curious to see if this has changed anything for you.

kirsche brings up a reasonable case against Randa, although I'm not entirely sure scum would follow a game so closely.

riddle me this, why say kirsche brings up a reasonable case against me if he had already stated that his opinion had changed. and i still agree that self-meta is bad, not scummy just bad.

Dormio once wrote like an entire essay for an RVS case, as scum. It's probably true that the meta isn't necessarily correct because I haven't played with Dormio for a while, but it's definitely wrong that scum!Dormio wouldn't make big RVS cases that attract attention (something someone else said).

Dormio what do you think of kirsche? Like you voted Shin and that's cool but you didn't say anything about your current opinion on kirsche. Is he still scummy for the way in which he claimed Miller? And you responded to my meta point but you didn't actually respond to anyone's statements about why your kirsche case was bad- you answered everything that was directed towards you, but nothing actually about the case.

i think this post is fine. it also goes along with what i think is town!BBM vibes.

##Vote: Randa

I will put the logic behind this vote under my main account, for the sake of those who abuse ISOs. I also want to vote two different people right now, and this role is PERFECT for it~!

I will ban Prims because he got my song wrong. I'm not Hannes FFS.

MY POWERS ARE BACK! Now as promised, content.


That's your logic - fine. The final interpretation of your actions in terms of my read on you rests with me, and what it is will depend on what else happens in the game. This statement includes the edit, which is a pain in the ass to quote because SF doesn't pick up quotes within quotes.


First, I don't think kirsche was joking. Second, if someone counter-claimed kirsche, then what? Don't really care for the conclusion or the path to get there, but I think this is a Mancer tell, not a scum tell.


That post IMPLIES that Dormio finds that behavior scummy.


I'm an empress, and I'll get to the rest of the content after I'm done making a nice little wall post.


"I was making a RVS joke" is a reasonable out. I'd do more than make a small mental note of what kirsche said if someone counter-claimed, which I don't think is happening at this point.


Most of it is focused on one person, and not in a way that I like. Over here, being cryptic is seen as being scummy. I have no idea how that happened.


I usually don't take meta arguments too seriously. One's posting style isn't solely affected by role PM. The fact that you're harping on it is the first thing that I find scummy. Like Mar-mar up there, I'll get to your Shin vote after I'm done making a wall.


SO, if you're town-reading Dormio, then why aren't you doing a thing about his wagon?


. . .and the first thing from Shin that I don't like. Randa following the game is null. Randa contributing very little to scumreads - scumtell.


I'm scum every game~!

---

My strongest objections to Dormio are his arguments against meta, and the fact that he's made no other comments about his wagon except for Shin. The miller thing is null, IMO - kirsche was in no danger of being lynched at that point, so I saw it more as a way to stop RVS. I don't agree with Marth's logic behind Paperblade's vote (Paperblade does that regardless of alignment). Randa is doing a fine job of not working with the wagon provided by his claimed town-read, and Mancer feels like he's commenting on things other people see, rather than finding them out for himself. I DO agree with Shin's logic behind Dormio's most recent vote, even if I don't agree with his logic WRT Randa.

Top scumreads are Randa and Mancer for the reasons I stated in the previous paragraph. I'm wary of Dormio, but it's not enough to warrant a vote. I'm also a bit wary of Paperblade, who popped in to vote, and completely ignored the rest of the game. Not really sure what to think of Marth, as my biggest problem with him involves someone else. Everyone else is town/null/needs to post.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mancer

dirge of swans vote: Randa

honestly not gonna lie dont like this post. first and foremost i have no idea what you would have me do to "work with the wagon", i had commented on the things that stood out to me about the wagon, i was not going to nor will i ever say that every person who votes somebody that i'm town reading is scum. if thats not what you meant then my bad, but thats how i'm reading what you said. secondly you contradict yourself, you say that you disagree with marth's logic behind paperblade and then proceed to say that you are wary of paperblade for essentially the same reasons.

Jesus stop spamposting people (okay, Randa), you're just making the thread a bitch to reread and not providing anything more valuable by posting a bunch of times in a row and then being like "nevermind the stuff I said for the last 3 posts isn't actually true anymore since I read more of the game y'all can forget I said that".

A lot of the votes on Dormio feel a little too ezride and while his kirsche thing does seem like overreacting everyone else looks like they're overreacting more like this is the scum move of the century. Shin is probably the worst of these imhotep, followed by Paper, because they don't really feel like they're adding anything to the wagon that is already of somewhat shaky quality.

This post strikes me as very odd because most of the votes on Dormio are pretty similar and amount to "don't like kirsche stuff" + a bit more sometimes.

I feel like Randa is posting a lot and saying very little that is actually relevant content, so that's worth something. People who are townreading him for posting a lot should recall Reclass. Activity isn't a towntell.

Fine with my vote where it is.

at the time i wasn't even the top poster so i don't see what your problem is. also look at the bolded that'll come back to bite you in the ass. also you didn't really provide any useful insight in your post either. "randa is spamposting." "shin and paperblade are suspicious" "dormio's case on kirsche was bad" ie all stuff everybody else knew. i don't see you can justify calling me out for lack of useful content when you had even less.

I can see where Dormio's case comes from (scum might want to back out of a miller claim if someone else says "but I'm miller...") even if I don't agree with it. This is also something Dormio does pretty regularly metawise regardless of alignment (and I thought BBM knew this?) so I don't see it as telling?

Mancer's Dormio case is the worst imo because he says that Dormio was asking questions but wasn't doing anything himself, which is obviously not true since he had the first serious vote of the game and nobody else had a case at that stage except Refa voting him back. And also it was kind obvious that Dormio found the vagueness scummy so I have no idea why you needed to ask that? Another reason I dislike Mancer is because of him saying "yeah I agree scum!Dormio wouldn't do this thing that Dormio did" but then stays on the vote anyway. His posts read kind of like he's just agreeing with every point brought up so far even if they conflict.

Shin's Dormio case is also kind of dodgy because it's perfectly acceptable to use self-meta as a defense when responding to a meta point and I don't see how Dormio wasn't responding to people either. Boron also feels kind of shaky to me because it feels like she's been really passive so far with no real opinions on the Dormio wagon beyond not understanding it despite being around for it? It's more of a gut thing than a serious suspicion though, I guess.

I don't really have issues with Randa, he has content and opinions, even if his posts are kind of hard to extract them from. And @ eclipse, Randa is voting Paper and expressed suspicion of Shin for his Dormio vote, so I don't think your vote makes sense?

##Unvote

##Vote: Mancer

still don't like self meta.

look it's a hypothetical i'm not getting into a semantics debate on something this irrelevant it's just annoying

actually it's not irrelevant. especially when it's in the same sentence as your justification for keeping your vote on me.

I said that. *insert emoticon here* My point was that they were all based on the same things, but had their own interpretations and reasoning for why that was. Unrelated to my reply to Rein, but if you (in general) expected any actual content from me at this point, then well don't. Gotta learn 2 drive, but figured I might as well respond to people who replied to me because there was like one comment anyways so I CAN TOTALLY DO THAT.

but again refa, they all had essentially the same interpretation on dormio's case and had the same reasoning for voting him.

"guys I'm shitposting and tired as fuck"

"Wow Paper where's the INSIGHT you maflord"
"Why aren't you posting while asleep"

There's no reason for living with a broken heart, I'm gonna commit sudoku

I voted because it's "RVS" and I had nothing better to do. There's not really a point in just letting stuff slide this early because

A. Sometimes mafia do tryhard cases, pressure people who you think will react
B. It's a good way to get discussion started

So get pressure on people, people on streets. I'm fairly satisfied with Dormio's responses

Also BBM lied to me, damn canadians

Also there's too many people can I just afk for like 3 day phases and come back when half of you are dead?

I'm reading over Mancer since he's accruing votes and something that stands out is he attacks Mancer but then says it was possible kirsche was joking? Isn't cases like this what Dormio was talking aboot. Mancer/Shin wagons suck because I can't read them well. Like, I didn't get any bad feelings from what he said but I tend to think Shin has a pretty flippant/carefree attitude so he says stuff that sounds more extreme than it's meant to be? Boron help

I keep thinking Refa is Kay, your avatar is too Kay-ish, voting you until you change it ##Unvote, ##Vote: Refa

People say this every game and it gets proven false all the time.

Randa kinda bugs me, I feel like he is not really taking a stance on most things? Even his vote is wishy washy if his other posts are any indication. Also he voted me so I am obligated to vote him back* ##Unvote, ##Vote: Randa

@Quote: The trick to not spamposting is to just write everything you normally would but don't post it til you're done (spoilers this is what I do)

*This is a joke

i dont think i've ever seen spamerblade.

Content: Sort of. If it's passive to the point where I miss it, it doesn't help. If someone's dogpiling on my townread, the last thing I want is for my logic to be lost in the noise.



Yep~! All content/logic will be under this account, for ease of ISO. I'll also note the alternate account's vote in my own posts, should it change. The anon account is my role - mostly because the last person who had this awesome role SAT ON IT. Two votes and two voices is cool~! Remembering to switch accounts. . .not so much, but I'll live with it~!


Clarification, kthx, I can't parse this.

Recent content: Hasn't changed reads.

but when i was stating why i though dormio was town , i wasn't in the middle of noise i was actually pretty clear that i didnt think his actions were scummy.

First things first, I should respond to Shin's posts. (#125/126)
With regards to the first thing about playing the victim or whatever, I'm just saying that when somebody is put into the spotlight this weird mob mentality kicks in and weaker cases go through without being looked at too much.
Which is what I think that your vote was.
For the self-meta thing, I don't really know what to do if you're going after me for correcting something that was wrong.
Like BBM said that the latest instance of me doing something like this was when I was scum when it wasn't.
And then, for #126, I assume that you're referring to this post? (#72)

I said that I don't know how to respond to that post because I really don't. MancerNecro stated that I was being contradictory and I failed to see what part of my actions were contradictory and therefore said as much.

Is this your only example of me supposedly avoiding discussion?

I'm still happy with my vote on Shin for now.

Randa's posts confuse me. I'll be reading and posting more about other people after I grab some food or something.

I do agree mancer's logic wrt you was baffling early on.

Eclipse just have the anon account open on another browser or on another user if you're using chrome. Also, can your accounts vote the same person? And does the second account affect the total number of players in the game?

I forgot to say this earlier but everybody going 'man Paper is lurking he's playing to scum meta' is being lame; you can't decide someone is lurking like 12 hours into D1. Criticizing him for a weak Dormio vote is valid but the meta point is stretching it. I think Via (this is Quote, @Dormio) is the worst offender here because their entire suspicion of Paperblade is based on this and doesn't even mention his vote being weak. And then they talk about how they always let Paperblade slide for lurking but then he's actually scum... so then why aren't you voting Paperblade?? That being said I like some of the other stuff they said, so MEH

I also don't really like Marth's Paperblade vote because he's just like 'Paperblade wouldn't make a vote like this' but doesn't really say why, at all? Honestly my gut feeling is that he just wanted to pick at people on the Dormio wagon. Picking at people for wagoning just out of RVS is almost as easy as wagoning just out of RVS.

also marth the staring thing was literally qualified by 'not flavour', so...

Also seriously guys I'll admit I forgot that Dormio actually makes RVS cases as town too (I haven't played with town!Dormio for a while okay) but as he himself said, he does it as scum too. This is how he plays, so really, don't give him towncred for being the first one to start stuff.

I can get the Mancer case but he's not giving off scumvibes to me; not enough paranoia and mudslinging. Will read Shin again in a little bit.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth

i agree with the point about via not voting paperblade. but why ignore my vote on paperblade?

my Paperblade suspicion is not strong enough for me to vote him rn compared to the other guys

everyone else I said I'd vote (such as: the person I am voting right now, Mancer) all have way more shit I can vote them for
I know the way I worded it sounded like I thought Paper was the most suspicious of the three but I meant it as a sort of "this better not be what's happening AGAIN" because BBM this has happened to me at least 3 times in games here pls understand

but thats an acceptable answer to BBM's point about not voting paper.

The kirsche vote still bugs me because there isn't actually scum intent in what kirsche did; Dormio was making a way bigger deal out of it then it needed to be. Yeah scum can be vague but there was no reason for scum to be vague in that context. People don't ED1 claim Miller unless it's been given to them as a fake- it's a role that's used too often. The Shin vote is okay so he's getting better I guess, but it bothers me that people are giving him a free pass for something that is not townie in ANY case, because a few extra hours of non-RVS on Day 1 don't really make that much of a difference. And it's even worse in Dormio's case because that's just how he plays all the time. It would be like people giving cred to Elie for doing dumb stuff to get us out of RVS, for example (not really an up-to-date example but whatever).

Reread Shin; I agree with the case but have nothing of note to add there so I don't particularly see a point in voting there right now. I'd rather try to get Marth to post more. But he's probably sleeping right now, sigh.

bbl shower

do you mean the case on shin or the cases shin has made?

ugh fakeclaim

"guys elieson is obviously evil and lying"
"stop tunneling on the neutral!!!"

I'm useless, but not for long
My future is coming on

I have a couple townreads but don't feel like outing them

I'm voting Randa, Refa thing was a joke (although his avatar does confuse me)

Dormio's case was that kirsche was being intentionally vague
Mancer got on Dormio's case, but I thought it was weird that he got confused about what kirsche meant? It struck me as odd

Shin thing is kind of a tangent, I think Shin gets more suspicion in general because of his attitude/approach and it makes hard for me (and others) to read him

Also gonna go do homework [i[on a Friday[/i] so goodbye goodbye, goodbye goodbye, goodbye goodbye

i have no idea what type of paperblade this is. i kinda think its town for some reason.

Blaergh whatever I'm probably being paranoid for no good reason too early in the game
Like I said it's not as important as the other scumreads I have anyway

BBM, would you vote Shin? That post felt like a cop-out to me and lol I said that term twice now whatever

the bolded kinda feels wrong. are you asking if he thinks shin is scummy?

Shin I literally don't understand what you are talking about lol.
Like I get how the way I word things might be confusing but your last point is like... ?
I... I have listed who I think is scummy, and add BBM to that slightly because I think he's said scummy things. Everyone else I either haven't read, am null on, or are townreads I don't wanna out

What's scummy about having a select few scumreads??? What do you want from me
Like if anything I think YOU'RE the one grasping here and am happy keeping my vote on you

That bolded line in particular is more of a null point.

Quote, you misunderstand, I know that you've listed who you think is scummy. My main issue that I cannot see any conviction in either your Mancer or Paper reads, despite you seemingly being cool with either of their lynches. I'd also appreciate if you lowered you tone, you're coming across as rather aggressive.

Also the paperblade thing was me being paranoid because I thought he was acting like he always acts as scum I haven't played in a while
I feel it kinda less so with his latest content

So my conclusion is: you are a scumlord

okay i dont think im following the logical progression here. even with the initial i dont see anything that you posted that really screamed hey shin is scum. and i dont see how that is the conclusion that you reached from that particular argument.

I don't get this at all considering dormio had the first serious vote of the game. What did you want him to contribute on anyway?

Also why couldn't kirsche say the claim was a joke?

I also dislike how mancer keeps on flip flopping on his dormio read. He quotes refa's post saying why he didn't think dormio was scum and says he agrees on it
but in his next post he seems to be scumreading dormio?

yeah i can agree i dont think mancer ever stayed with a read on dormio for more than two pages. also again the question has to be asked why would kirsche pass it off as joke.

Too many posts to respond to. I'm not feeling it!

Okay, so, reading through the new content that I'd missed and through Dormio's ISO as I said I would. I still stand by my earlier comment that Dormio's vote on kirsche didn't feel scummy and that I don't think scum would've drawn attention to themselves the way he did. I don't agree with Shin's vote on Dormio (I don't feel he was skirting issues or using self-meta as a defense, but rather responding to BBM who brought it up in the first place), but nor do I agree with Dormio's vote on Shin. I don't feel that Shin's vote was the worst on the wagon, plus Shin feels like Shin to me - as in, not scummy.

Refa feels kind of off to me. His vote is still on Dormio, but I have no idea what he feels about Dormio now. His latest posts feel a bit like "empty noise", where he's not really saying a lot of relevant stuff, or he doesn't seem to be doing anything productive with his replies. Reads apathetic scummy.

I actually got a worse vibe from Paper's initial post, most likely from the second part of that post where he says "at the same time the case seems stupid but apparently we have meta shit". I feel that while his second post has valid points, his ISO also contains too much "empty noise" like Refa's. Basically, I feel that have a low content ratio for the amount of posting they've done.

Randa, please don't have over 100 posts in D1 alone, thanks. His first six or so posts are irrelevant and basically joking around. I think what he was doing was replying to stuff as he was reading (as opposed to reading everything and making a neat post at the end), but I do feel that it's extremely lackluster that this is a rather poor conclusion for everything that had happened. Do you have any opinions on anyone else you want to make clear? Also, clarify this for me because I'm confused: is Shin scummy for his vote? You seem to say that it's opportunistic in one post, but that you can understand his vote in a previous post, so …

Not sure how to describe my thoughts on BBM. I have a slight negative read on him that I can't explain well, maybe it's because it feels like he's clinging to Dormio suspicion even though the basis of it was faulty.

I don't agree with Mancer's case on Dormio, and I don't understand why his case on Dormio is still stronger than the suspicions he is getting from Randa. When you get back, Mancer, please tell us why your suspicions on Dormio are still present/stronger than other suspicions, or if your reads change when you get back explain why.

##Vote: Refa

Refa >= Randa > Paperblade >>> Mancer = BBM

If you're not mentioned in the paragraphs above, I don't have problems with you right now.

i dont agree with your conclusion on refa. i would argue it but there arent any examples for me to argue against.

I just woke up and basically skimmed through the last few pages. Expect a proper post after I actually read through everything properly but here are a few responses to some common questions:

I thought Dormio was scummy for his case on kirsche being vague. Regardless of whatever kirsche meant by his post or planned to do, I found Dormio's case really forced. The timing for it seemed wrong as well, as mentioned in one of my previous posts.

Regarding flopping around, I was only agreeing with Randa that scum would rather just lurk and let RVS last slightly longer without drawing attention to themselves. However, this doesn't change the earlier reads that I had had on Dormio. This might be a town-read-reason to Randa but it's not to me. It's just a point I was agreeing with.

Past that point when the Randa suspicions came up, I was already too sleepy and tired to focus and follow the game fully (because of my meds but I think some of you know that already).

Going to ##Unvote for now pending a reread of the thread (that's going to happen right now).

so do you think dormio is scum? thats whats this post is saying.

If the spam keeps up I may request for a replacement. It might just be that I had a terrible day today, but reading everything has been painful and thinking about mafia makes me angry and frustrated.

I think Dormio's case on Shin is accurate, specially the point where he says Shin is accusing him of using self-meta. What do you expect someone to do to defend themselves when meta is brought up against them?

Same goes for Eclipse in this post, let me quote the fragment since the post itself is quite long:

Also, just to clarify, I think Dormio is using arguments against the meta that's being brought up against him, not against meta in general. Do you think otherwise, or did you mean that?

Not sure what to think about Dormio myself, some of his posts read as town and others as scum, mostly gut. I'm leaning towards town now though, the post where he cases Shin gives me the same feeling than his posts on NotV2 (recent MotK game).

I don't like Mancer's post here. I think it's scummy how he's trying to pass hypocresy as a scumtell without giving an explanation on it. I also don't like the tone of some of Mancer's posts.

I also agree with Kirsche on Randa (post link), I think Randa's post was easy content and I agree that town would probably look into things a little more.

##unvote

##Vote: Shin

Shin > Eclipse > Mancer > Randa, I think

again i question why you are referring to kirsche's points against me when at the time he had already backed down from them.

also there was something about the shin segment that caught my eye. i cant remember what atm but i will think of it.

I interpreted that as "I don't understand what you mean" more than anything else.

Also do you have an opinion/anything to say not named Dormio (one line going "wow kirsche is awesome" is not enough)? BBM is guilty of this of this as well and I'm just tired of seeing his name crop up.

Wrt the rest of this post, I don't really understand the Randa suspicion, what do you mean by not wanting to work with your top town read? Sheeping townreads isn't necessarily a good idea.

I forgot to say this earlier but everybody going 'man Paper is lurking he's playing to scum meta' is being lame

Who did this aside from Bizz? Also this defense feels kind of unneccessary, there's only like 1 serious vote on PB and the rest are mostly just throwaway comments on how his vote was bad. The dormio stuff also feels overblown, who is saying Dormio is townie just for pushing us out of RVS? Whoever they are (if they exist) aren't memorable enough to make everyoen give Dormio a free pass.

The marth vote is ok, but Marth did mention that he felt the vote was just a filler vote and therefore implied that he thought PB wouldn't make that kind of vote. It's kind of an easy vote to make, it's not going to convince the masses but nor is it going to face the wrath of a town. It's just not going to come into the limelight, and is just going to become outdated the moment Marth comes back in and makes more comments.

I feel like he's agreeing on a lot of cases, but at the same time there are some he's dispelling, like the Paperlurkscum thing.

Wtf is this logic. "I feel like he's agreeing with some cases, and disagreeing with others". How does this indicate alignment at all?

That's because it is pressuring, Bizz's attacking suspicious play.

The Dormio/kirsche dynamics are confusing me too, but there's not much to it and I don't think I can get a case of alignment from it. Still, it seems Dormio's just about dropped any kirsche suspicion and kirsche is backing Dormio.

This entire bit is padding. In fact I feel most of the post is padding, the last line is just dumb before clarification, and even then it's a weak point. All your cases are graspy, padded out, based on ill-thought out logic or all of the above.

Should really lynch here guys.

Boron: Can you at least comment on the Shin cases rather than going "Shin's just being Shin". Why is Randa's conclusion that PB's vote was bad a poor one?

I'm *ok* to lynch Mancer but they clearly don't even reread their posts and what mafioso does that. Not convinced he's not just flailing town until we see something that isn't Dormio related. PB's recent posts are ok and fairly reasonable (still disagree wrt Randa), Quote is obvtown.

Shin > BBM >> Mancer

honestly i think this post outlines any problems i might have had with shin and then more problems i didnt even think of.

I don't get the Paperblade case. Bluedoom, I actually think that given how much had happened by the time he had made his first case, I think that his first post is pretty justified. Given, I don't know Paperblade's meta so I can't really comment on that.

@SB: Making the first non-RVS vote doesn't mean that he's posted a lot of content. It just means he's the first person to have a serious vote. Furthermore, his posts right after that have either been a complete reiteration of his case on kirsche or prodding other players needlessly (mostly Boron but oh well). ##Vote: SB. right now because I don't really like his interpretation of Dormio's posts and I feel that he is scum trying to come up with an excuse to move onto one of the potential wagons (on me. Yeah, I admit, I get mislynched a lot, lol).

this is like horrible logic for a vote. you gave reasons as to why dormio is scum and then voted SB. ?_?

I can understand why people are voting Shin, and I believe I already expressed disagreement with his vote and reasonings for said vote on Dormio. The thing is, I just don't find it scummy, especially coming from Shin, so while I can see why people are voting him I don't agree with it. I do think Dormio's initial vote on Shin was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction (which has been pointed out earlier by another player), but I can still see the reasoning behind it.

Also, I just reread the sentence you're referring to regards to Randa, and I screwed up the wording of that sentence by a lot. It's not that I think his conclusion that Paper's vote was bad is a poor one, but that I think it's weak that it's the ONLY real conclusion he has. Randa was obviously reading the thread and commenting on other stuff, so why is his vote for Paperblade the only thing he felt he had to "conclude?" Did he have any solid reads or suspicions on other players or reasons why?

the answer to that question is no. at the time i had no solid reads, pb was about the closest to a solid read and the only person i suspected aside from paperblade was shin. i didn't like the timing of either votes. and in retrospect shin's post might've actually been worse. but idk i didn't really think it was that bad at the time.

Uhh, stop what?

I don't like how you're assuming that Dormio's early game case and posts are content when they are not, SB. His questions, prods and pokes are not really content. The fact that you're voting me because of such an assumption makes me feel like your case is weak and forced.

I did not say you could not find Dormio not-scum, lol.

It's all WIFOM since scum can just pretend to draw attention to themselves in order to appear townie, as both you and Randa seem to think that Dormio is town for.

what even is this post. oh wait i know. its feamongering. thats literally all it is. its misrepresenting dormio, because unfortunately earlygame content is still content and then you conclude the thought with its all WIFOM which only serves the purpose of making people over think things.

also wording question why say it is WIFOM and not could be.

But... it is content? He made a case and everything. I'm not voting you based on that, I'm voting you for misinterpreting his posts and generally agreeing with whatever point gets brought up, even if it conflicts with your reads (see: the stuff on Dormio).

see SB agrees with me.

Shin, what exactly IS your read on BBM? You say he's mixed but you just say "he's attacking some people but defending others" which is a comment on his play, not his alignment. And the Via vote is also really grasping, it looks like he's going after them because they asked BBM about their vote and Shin can't really understand where their suspicions are coming from? Half of the stuff there isn't even related to Via's content.

Boron, why are your strongest scumreads at this point all for basically having low content? Refa's latest posts have basically been saying "yeah I'm busy", so of course they're not gonna have content or updates on how he feels about Dormio in them? And the Paper suspicion doesn't really make much sense to me either, I don't think his content levels are particularly low for this stage in the game either. The Randa point is a little better but I still don't really agree with it.

Mitsuki reads like she's sort of white knighting Dormio to me and it's sort of concerning? Especially to the point that eclipse is her second priority because she made a passing mention of something she didn't like, and didn't even vote for Dormio based off of it (and she had 2 votes to do it with), which is really blowing things out of proportion here. How is that worse than Mancer or Randa?

##Unvote
##Vote: Boron

It feels like there's no real initiative in her scumhunting and the lack of content angle is way easier to push than looking at actually scummy actions, and considering it's still ED1 why is not having a lot of content a big deal? And uh, if you're just saying "I don't agree with the Shin votes because it's Shin", do you have a way to read him otherwise?

i can kinda agree with the points made about boron and mitsuki. the problem is i dont remember mitsuki white knighting as scum.

It is less that they have low content but rather the ratio of content vs spam. If Refa is busy, that's fine. But what he was doing read to me as if he were artificially inflating his post count, to make it look like he contributed more than he actually did. Also, I am not suspicious of Paper for having low content. I'm feel like he has too much irrelevant crap.

I mean, did you even read what I actually said about Refa and Paper? Having low content in itself is fine if you're just not posting often or if what you do say is pretty definitive and clear. But that wasn't my point. Having too much irrelevant crap compared to content, especially when your content doesn't feel all that strong, is suspicious.

See above for response to the "lack of content" angle. Also, do not forget that in Yume Nikki and British mafia, Refa and Paper were scum in those respective games, and a major indicator for both of them being scum was the lack of content and the amount of empty noise they had. So it isn't like we've never caught scum over lack of content or that it's so unheard of or "easy" to do so.

Also, you're acting like I said people are not allowed to vote Shin, when that is not the case. I just personally don't see what he is doing as a scum tell even if I can understand why other people do. I can't read Shin's posts and peg him as town or scum on D1. He does things that everyone else sees as scummy but is rarely an indicator of alignment, and so rather than falling into the same stupid trap everyone seems to I'd rather WAIT until I can have a definite opinion of him. Would you prefer I lie and say I have a definite opinion on him when I don't?

As for "no real initiative in scum hunting", you'll just have to forgive me if I just start off slow in some games and I'm too distracted with my thesis work to give this game my 100% because I'm probably not going to graduate again.

content:spam should be irrelevant tbh. it should be quantity of "quality content" wrt to the quantity of other peoples "quality content". spamming and having fun isn't scummy it's actually completely non-indicative of alignment. honestly if i put out the same amount of quality content as others but i do it in 20 posts instead of 5 but do it in the same time frame whats the problem.

Except I feel that it does? If a certain person is posting frequently and you realize that they are posting frequently, it looks like they are contributing more. But sometimes you don't realize how ~little~ of the stuff they said is actually helpful or contributory to the game. I had that impression with Refa when I was looking at his ISO. I thought he said a lot more than he actually said, and I find his current stance and opinions very unclear.

And yes, I know that people don't get town reads off activity levels alone, but if a person appears to be posting frequently and their content isn't knee-jerk terrible, aren't most peoples' initial reactions going to be "oh, they're contributing and what they're posting isn't terrible"? That's usually what my initial D1 reactions are to people. If I feel that a person is posting frequently enough content to stick in my memory, I automatically tend to worry about them less. And when I go back to their ISOs and find that they have not had as much game-relevant content as I thought, that automatically jumps out to me.

I feel that it's scummy because it looks like they're trying to be memorable enough to have some good content attributed to them and to be considered as "posting enough" but aren't really doing anything to push the game forward.

Maybe less than 24 hours into the game is a bit too early, but at that point it was the strongest suspicions that I had and it at least lets them know that I'm not particularly satisfied with their content and hopefully convince them to step it up more. Would you have preferred if I sat back and pushed nothing because what was pinging me is apparently "too early"?

I'm not ashamed to admit that I am really bad at reading Shin in mafia games. Maybe I just haven't played with him enough but if he has scum tells I am not aware of them and what I do see is that he always does something that everyone thinks is suspicious, but more often than not flips town anyway. I'd rather wait until I have a better read on him rather than trying to force a read that I myself have no basis for.

that indicates though that that its the intent of posting frequently. i can say beyond a doubt that i dont i spam to make noise so people think im being the lead contributor and have done more scum hunting then anyone else. i do it because it helps me keep track of my thoughts better. something that this wall post has demonstrated that i struggle with. and i don't think its your bad at reading shin, its that you don't try to read him. much like how people just don't bother trying to actually read my posts anymore, which kinda pisses me off btw.

Boron's play did strike me as a little non-committal too but the reason I haven't treated it as scummy/important is because I think the way she goes about it is more earlygame/early D1 cautiousness than scum active lurking.

By the way I don't really remember like anyone's meta except Paper Refa Mancer kinda SB I guess. That and everyone's styles have changed a lot. Like when I thought what Dormio was doing seemed townie and then BBM made the point that he acts that way regardless of alignment so now I'm just kinda null, I will make points without knowing "how people play" so sorry in advance but I will stick to what I think is scummy despite meta arguments I guess.

The whole Paperblade thing, again, was me being paranoid and spouting shit that didn't really matter & I just have grudges from past games lol

I'm rereading but my opinions still aren't really changing much. Still want to lynch Shin, etc

i had something here i was gonna say. ill get back to this later.

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Maybe I should've posted in WW before this ;-;.

Paper's recent content is still not impressive and my vote is staying where it is.

Accuses Randa of being wishy-washy except his own vote on Randa is wishy-washy. Because things like saying ' it feels like he has no actual opinions on people' without actually citing particular posts which make him feel that way or really adding on points to that just feel weak and wishy-washy.

@SB: Saying that Paperblade has a weak D1 regardless of alignment is still a blanket statement at best because there will always be differences between his D1 Scumplay and D1 Townplay. I'm glad that you brought up Tyne-Wear : Paperblade actually had LESS content there than you think(his ISO is just a page.) There was this certain indecisiveness in his tone and he waffled between reads like his read on you and camtech.

@BBM: If you want me to specify, Paperblade is a smart player who can tell the difference between a dumb town play and a scum play. The Dormio thing could go either way, so why did he think this was a scum play? What's the scum benefit in doubting the miller claim and overreacting? Also, if he wanted to pressure Dormio and add on to the wagon, he wouldn't type a paragraph to show that he was suspicious of Dormio repeating stuff others have said, instead as town he'd just jump on to the wagon and say he's sheeping someone's case. I know that Scumblade feels like posting to make it seem like he has content even though its hard for him to fake it, so this is telling IMO.

For those trying to understand what I mean, you could read two ISOs. THey're all on the first post of their respective games anyway.

1. Read Red Eye's ISO from Shin Megami Tensei Mafia. This was Pblade's alias in that game and he was Town.

2. Read Pblade's ISO from Tyne Wear Mafia. He was scum in that game.

In other news I think BBM's defence of Paperblade is scummy because its based on discrediting all cases on him and scumreading people who're wagoning/scumreading Paper except his vote is on me for " picking on people on the Dormio wagon" which is literally the same thing he's doing except with the Paper scumreaders.

And yes I DO think there is/was scum on the dormio wagon because it was fast and based off of dumb reasoning where people like to instantly think of dumb play as scum play. The people least likely to be scum from this wagon are Mitsuki and Shin, since they made an RVS vote/ have a confusing playstyle that makes them look scum as town and are a butt to read, respectively.

I think Boron's points on Refa are valid, but I'm not as confident meta-reading him and I'd like to read more of his content n the future before trying to make an informed read on him.

I get where the Randa/Mancer scumreads are coming from, but the thing is, I think Randa's play as town is not decisive and spammy as well. Mancer could go either way, because when I townread him as an observer in Hard NOCs I was wrong and I remember him waffling over his opinions in Hard NOCs before he eventually got lynched D1. So this could be a repeat of scum! Mancer. Actually, I think I'm more comfortable lynching Mancer than Randa, should I be given that choice at deadline.

valid point against BBM i guess. i'm kinda losing focus tbh. idk how eury does this.

@Bluedoom: What in the world is your last paragraph? You shouldn't really be consolidating reads so early on in the game, really.

There isn't really much reasons for me to scum read Paperblade at this point. His play so far reads as null to me. I'm refusing to use meta to vote someone when I don't actually know their meta at all.

I don't see the Shin case either but I seem to notice that Shin has been pretty focused onto Dormio so far that I'm thinking of taking a second look at him in a while.

I don't like Levity seeming to gut read players so much in this game but they seem to do it every game as both alignments?

mancer again i kinda question whether or not you are actually following the game. predominatly cause via didn't really give a lot of gut reads.

@Mancer I was saying that I don't know/remember anyone's metagame aside from those guys so if I make a case on someone and I get a bunch of "oh that's just how they always play" I'll probably just shrug because I don't know

for clarification I gutread you in the beginning of the game and my Paper read could be considered half-gut half-meta but that's all the pure-gutreading I can remember. you said you misread though so whoops, sorry

or i can just use quotes for what i just said.

Mancer who do you think is actually scum and why?

What hapened to your Dormio read? What about your Randa read? Why is SB scummier than Dormio?

Mancer, what do you think of Dormio now? Do you actually still suspect him, and why? Also, do you think Marth is scummy for his Paperblade case and his "consolidation"? Your thoughts seem a bit incoherent and not very well organized, I'm having a bit of a hard time keeping up with your suspicions.

Junk, do you have thoughts on anyone else besides Mancer?

yes i agree with these question mancer you are confusing sometimes.

Right now I think Dormio could be scum but Randa brings up a good counterpoint about scum not drawing attention to themselves in RVS and that made me reconsider my read on Dormio. Also, I liked Dormio's later posts and switch over to Shin. His case feels less forced and more coherent there.

Regarding finding other players scum, that has to come after more rereads of the thread because on my initial reads, everyone's behavior seems null-town to me.

this still doesn't clear up anything. at all.

Ugh, so many posts I don't want to read, why did I ever like NOC again anyway?

Randa hasn't said anything since my last post so still not like him and will be leaving my vote there until I think I've got somewhere better to put it.

Of the Dormio wagon people I like Paper better than I did before after his recent posts and Shin a bit less. Paper's posts come off as pretty genuine and stuff and I wasn't reading him ultra bad anyway, and I think a lot of people jumped to conclusions (myself included admittedly) off of his tired first post. Of the people suspecting him I think Marth is on the most shaky grounds. The stuff he's voting on feels not actually scummy imhotep so yeah.

Shin's initial Dormio vote felt like the weakest out of many and of a wagon I think was pretty dubious it's the weakest link, and I think at least someone on it is scum due to the way votes racked up so quickly and he's my number 1 on it right now. I think the Via case is also pretty poor and lacks substance, and particularly his last post gives bad vibes and stuff.

Junko should give more opinions.

Randa > Shin > Marthipan or something. mafia sucks

okay i can accept the points made about shin and paper, again though why mention marth's case and ignore my sheeping of his case.

and again i think you're being hypocritical telling other people that they need to post more reads.

I'm going to use YOU as an example, since I've got a townread on you. Let's pretend that four votes suddenly popped up on you. Since I'm townreading you, that means that my read is contrary to the reads of the people who voted you. If the logic of the people voting you doesn't sway me from my own read, then that means that there's logic I strongly disagree with (at best) or outright scum (at worst). Thus, I'm going to go after those who voted you, to figure out why our views are so very different.

If I think that someone is in danger of being lynched, and I'm absolutely convinced that they're town (this has happened exactly once), I start shredding the wagons with a vengeance.

Instead, Randa did this. It sounds really, REALLY passive, given that he's voting based off of the case of someone who he thinks is town.


Refa - Seems busy, so null for the moment. If he can get a couple of posts out regarding the recent stuff, I'll have a better idea of what to think about him.
Paperblade - I felt that his first serious post was him swooping in, voting, and swooping out. He's been a bit better as of late, and while I'm not absolutely totally convinced about his logic, I'm not interested in lynching him at this moment.
Randa - Explained this several times, the other account has a vote on him, and nothing so far has changed that read.


I'm going to point this out for one reason: just because I don't agree with someone's logic doesn't mean that I think they're scum. In this case, spamming the thread at this point reads as null to me. If it becomes a pattern, I'll pay attention to it.


Y'know what I call it? "Exactly what I expect to see when someone is trying to defend a townread". In other words, I don't see that as a scumread.


. . .but I don't think that Dormio's guilty of dumb play. I can buy the Mitsuki reason, but I think that trying to use the excuse "I can't read Shin" is a little lame. It's still pretty early in D1, and people are talking quite a bit about Shin - read it~!

This completely and utterly contradicts that one quote where I made notes of Dormio's content

Dormio's done quite a bit, but I'd like it if he'd explain his recent statements a bit more. That meta thing still bugs me, but it's not enough to drive a vote. Marth's starting to ping me a little, because that logic behind BBM makes no sense in my mind. Still happy with my Mancer vote, even if he finally has something original to his name (a Marth read~!).

thing is i don't have to have a scumread on people voting my townread. just like i dont have to have a townread on people voting my scumreads. in fact you say thus yourself with the other part of the bolded. just because i dont share my like 14/15 null reads on people mean they aren't there.

Refa has a lot of empty content but it feels like he's doing it on purpose/acknowledges it so I don't know where to go from there.

Actually am scumreading BBM. He had to be prodded a couple of times to explain his reads (once with his Shin read and another with his Dormio read) and he's picking at relatively small things.

WRT the Paperblade thing (post here), I only remember me saying he was playing to his scum meta and then I think Mancer voted him--it reads to me like BBM wanted something to comment on and did that without reading thoroughly, since I was the only/one of the only people to get on Paperblade for "lurking" (I don't remember even wording it that way maybe I did??) and everyone else that got suspicious of Paper at that point mostly criticized him for his Dormio vote. He then turns around and goes "Well I like the rest of what Quote said so MEH" which seems unnecessary. So do you think my Paperblade read is scummy?

Dormio giving him an example of RVS-casing as town and him going "well he acts this way as any alignment then" reads like vague backpedaling

IDK his content just doesn't seem very strong to me right now

this post makes me wanna look at refa a bit closer. so ill do that later though.

I asked BBM if he would vote Shin

I didn't like his little thing about Shin at the end of his post it felt like something he just tacked on and I didn't like it

I'm confused and kinda wondering what about my question was indirect/scummy

I feel like when someone asks "are you willing to vote X with me", and it's not to dodge a universal loss/have a lynch go through, it's a sign that they don't have enough faith in their case to persuade others. This is how I see things, and I have no idea if Shin follows the same line of thought.

(it also brings up some shitty memories from childhood which I'd rather not go into here)

i agree with clipsey on this i didn't come out the way you wanted it to.

My gripe with players like Shin is the fact that their play always confuses me and it always seems scummy because their votes make no sense

Like, remember Yume Nikki, where Shin was town but for the entire of D1 he went back and forth with Elieson over the fact that he made a weak case in RVS with a vote and two lines. And then a mountain out of a molehill was made! I mean, I just checked his ISO from that game, and almost the entire thing was his D1 content! He flaked after that but it was a PITA to read him for the entire day but he made himself obv!town through interactions with people like Scum!Refa.

The last time I played with Scum!Shin as town was Semi-Precious Mafia, and there it really just felt like Shin came on at convenient times and made opportunistic votes. He's not show up for almost an entire phase and then make a deadline vote. That's why I don't feel the cases against Shin- I don't feel like he's the type of player to dig in for original reasoning and hop on to an RVS wagon, plus the reasoning would get him flak, since this case was really similar to the one in Yume Nikki.

i feel like my own opinion on shin is just being swayed by literally everybody else.

wow kirsche is awesome

very true.

no fuck you ##FoS: Randa
say that after I've commandeered your body, punk
also I tried putting together some coyote avatars and they all sucked as icons

aaaaand I still haven't gotten my hw done and I have no time for like all of tomorrow sunday is hard too fuck everything

from me like, guiltily skimming while avoiding my homework:
- shin felt graspy (not just the dormio thing) - which I gather is most of the case that's already been made against him
-- but shin is like always scummy D1 anyways so idrk here sigh
- eclipse feels like town which is odd for me to read her as
- refa is making posts without giving opinions afaict pedit: but apparently he's doing ~things~ irl so meh
--- not reading him as town which is weird for me (not like, ~scummy~ either, just, kind of nullish)
- sb feels like town but meh

somehow I've managed to miss like all of lots of people's posts I suck at reading

pretty sure I don't see kirsche as scummier than anyone else ##unvote
still has a creepy avatar tho would dayvig/10

and I need to sleep because it's already too damn late fuck my life

I feel bad making a shitty post but RL > mafia

---

this post has been tagged:
#gutreads #fuckhomework #sleepsux #transferessaysareworse

i had that one coyote avatar for a while. i think im gonna go back to it.

Boron: I don't get how she doesn't get any reads from Dormio/Shin; OK, so their votes on each other aren't particularly telling. What about the rest of their content? You can't just dismiss the leading wagon by saying "well, his vote on Dormio" isn't scummy without looking at the rest of his content (I mean Shin); I can sympathize with reading people who you have a hard time reading (thank god Prims got N1'd), but that doesn't excuse you from making no effort on that front. Of course all of my latest posts don't have relevant content, I specifically mentioned that I hadn't read the thread in like most of them. I just wanted to get out my questions/responses while the people who asked them were still online and not later on when I ended up making my post. Also I was obvious scum in Yume Nikki because I was really demotivated after rolling scum a bajillion times, which obviously can't be the case here (and most of my posts were in the RVS phase, so they obviously weren't made for the purpose of feigning content). Don't see how in the world Paper's posts can be construed as having a lot of empty noise, or why this is scummy (he still has more content than non content); I dunno, this in particular bothers me because it's just a very easy point to make. Similar feelings to Randa, although less strong because you do question some of his content there. Why is the basis for BBM's Dormio suspicion faulty? The only thing you've said is that you don't agree that Dormio was scummy, which is different from peoples' suspicions having a flaw in them.

Overall: Scumreading her. The only thing that really bothers me about my Boron read is that while I have a lot of problems with her play, tonewise she comes off as a lot townier than she did for me in SFMM4. Anyways, if she's town then she can probably make a satisfactory reply anyways so I'm less worried about my read on her than say my read on Shin.

Mancer: Something that bothers me about Mancer isn't his actual case on Dormio (which I had no issues with), but how he's persistently hounding the dude over a minor point (that being the fact that Dormio never explicitly called kirsche scummy); it's just very similar to Hard NOC's 2 wherein he hounded Randa for assuming there was a Cult Leader for the better part of the first day and didn't let up until he was called out on it. His later explanation here though is pretty legit; ugh, Mancer please be easier to read. His SB case is baffling, but like...not in a Scum!Mancer sort of way, if that makes any sense. Other people brought up good points about his reads disappearing though. But then again, him reading everyone as null town really doesn't seem like Scum Mancer I hate everything.

Overall: (*$H%(*$@U$J(*@*(N@)FNH$(*N$(*%NN($U)@M)$&@FN)N*$F)$N&)*$N&&)N$))@($MANCERPLEASE

Mitsuki: Her Shin suspicion is fine, her eclipse suspicion is not. Not only does she not mention why eclipse is scummy, but her Mancer/Randa reads are like...way stronger for that very reason. It's just a little too weak for her second highest scumread. Not sure if this is because she's scum or just frustrated, please make more posts when life gets less frustrating xoxoxo.

Overall: Slightly scummy, it's slight because her eclipse read was poorly explained but she also only made one post and seemed to be pressed for time so whatever.

Randa: Not gonna lie, I haven't seriously analyzed any of his posts. I'm just inclined to believe that he's town because besides kirsche's early vote on him, all of the issues with him seem to be because he's Randa more so than because he's Scum!Randa, if you catch my drift. However, would like him to answer a question. Randa, why was Paperblade's vote on Dormio worse than anyone elses' (you specifically compared his to Shin, but I don't see how Shin's added more discussion than Paperblade's did)?

Overall: Town. I'm not conflicted on him at all, so this should be pretty fucking obvious.

Shin: Something that bothers me about him is his unwillingness to change his position on Dormio, because I've always considered Town!Shin to be a pretty flexible dude barring certain situations in LYLO (fuck you, Prims ;_;). I agree that Shin's Randa read is baffling (he says Randa is scummy for not committing to cases but he's townie because he's following the game). Honestly I wouldn't be bothered if he just had his Dormio read at that point, because the only other significant cases were ON him, but the Randa read just seems like filler for the sake of it. Also Shin, ISO's are like in the first post...somehow I get the feeling that you didn't actually make an effort to ISO anyone. I don't get Shin's issues with BBM at all (again, reads like more filler), where did his Randa read go in the post where he voted Bizz (nowhere), and he's just voting Bizz for being Bizz without offering adequate explanations for why Bizz's reads on Dormio/Mancer are really graspy (saying they lack conviction is not actually an explanation for why they're graspy; all graspy votes lack conviction). Bluedoom does bring up a good point though, gonna skim through Shin's Yume Nikki ISO to see how similarly he's playing.

Overall: He's my scumread that I feel the most confident about, but I still want to read Yume Nikki to make sure because I remember him acting similar as well and I really don't want to be responsible for yet another Shin mislynch (dude deserves a break at some point).

Everyone else that I didn't mention/reply too is a townread or a lurker. I also didn't read Euklyd's post because I'm planning on hardbuddying him when he inevitably gets mislynched D1 for maximum towncred (what now, Euklyd).

i agree with pretty much everything here. id like to hear his opinion on via though. just seems like the only major person he hasn't touched on.

I was not going to reply until the afternoon, but since this appeared while I was here and it's directly addressed towards me:

Bolded is a lie. I've stated that I don't think Dormio's actions were scummy, therefore I do not have a scum read on him. Even though I may not have agreed with his Shin vote, that doesn't change my read on him. So yeah, I have a read on Dormio.

Do you honestly think I haven't tried to make the effort to form an initial read? I am stuck so hard on Shin because I really don't think his actions are scummy and there are a lot of things he has to respond to when he gets back that'll probably influence my read on him. Just because I'm not being hasty as fuck and forcing myself to have a read I have no confidence in doesn't mean I'm not making an effort. It means I need more information before I can make a read I'm confident in. Maybe you should try bullshitting a read on someone you have a hard time reading without enough information.

Personal pet peeve: I hate it when people do this. I'd prefer it if people read the thread first.

Not obvious enough, because after RVS ended you still got away for a good part of D1 before I constructed an updated case on you. And regardless of the situation, it is still a scum tell so I don't see what your point here is. Paper's ISO rather annoys me, on another glance it looks like a lot of his stuff is sort of "in response" but doesn't really add anything new or look into anything, which he could've done instead of simply responding. His statements also feel "bare bone", like he's making an observation on the surface but not really looking into it.

I already explained why I found the basis of BBM's Dormio suspicion faulty, go read it! He made a side comment about Dormio's meta and why his kirsche vote was scummy, and after he was corrected on the faulty meta he looked like he was still trying to use Dormio's meta to say that Dormio couldn't be considered "townie" on it, or in other words holding something against Dormio over meta! Also, you say here that I said I didn't agree that Dormio was scummy. Earlier, you said that I had no reads on Dormio. Which is it, huh?

I was scum in SFMM4. If my tone comes off a lot townier than it did in that game, kind of tells you something, doesn't it?

Also fuck you Refa your post contained so many weird tags that wouldn't quote properly it took me twice as long to get this reply done.

and i think this is an acceptable response to refa.

so yeah. i have to talk about but that'll come later because my heads kinda killing me rn. i'll give my opinions on people after that post.

[Randa]

also be warned that is commenting on about half of whats been posted so its fing long.

[Junk]

Although this is basically disagreeing with a case on someone i'm scumreading I'll say it anyway. I don't get where shin says that he's calling mancer for being scummy when he said that dormio drew attention to gain towncred? Maybe I just a missed the post but he seemed to call the point of townreading dormio because he drew attention WIFOM and not scummy?

Also eclipse maybe i'm just dumb but i'm not sure what you're asking for?

[Paperblade]

I just woke up to like 150 new posts jesus christ guys

[BBM]

ah, the days when I too had nothing to do but post in mafia games

Marth, the point I was trying to make was that it seemed to me that you were picking on the Dormio wagon more because it was easy content than because you didn't like the votes there.

Your reasons for the Paperblade vote are because... he disagrees with you? That's literally what it looks like to me- you believe that it was a dumb play rather than a scum play and therefore anyone who can't determine the former from the latter and is also a good player is automatically scum? Your meta on Paper about him being waffly doesn't make sense either. Let's say that yes, his Randa vote was wishy-washy. Well it's still not waffly because he definitely committed to a vote there didn't he? Where has his play been indecisive?

As for 'what's the scum benefit in overreacting'... trying to paint someone as scummy for bad reasons isn't a scum move to you?

And now this is what I think is worst about Marth. He goes 'Dormio's actions were dumb so he's not scum' but then says, and I quote: 'And yes I DO think there is/was scum on the dormio wagon because it was fast and based off of dumb reasoning where people like to instantly think of dumb play as scum play'. But he literally just said that dumb play isn't scummy play. And this is it seems more as if he's just trying to pick on the Dormio wagon for the sake of it.

@kirsche- wasn't townreading Paper after his first post; began townreading him after the second one

quick skim of Shin's latest posts; they read better. Still not entirely sure what point he's trying to make about me but shrug. His Via vote makes more sense to me than it did before and I think he raises some good points about Junko.

I'm going to say straight-up that my play this game is almost certainly going to be tunnelly if this activity keeps up. I don't have time to read more than a few people's posts in-depth if I still want to keep semi-remotely up to date with the rest of the game. My reads elsewhere are going to be like gut-reads.

[BBM]

the Marth bit looks a little confusing, what I mean to say is: if dumb play isn't scum play, why is dumb reasoning scum reasoning? It may be a little semantic but like he keeps talking about Dormio overreacting not being scum, so then why is it scummy for other people to overreact?

[Randa]

does anybody even want a second giant ass wall post. if not i'll just give my thoughts on people and save my self the pain.

[Percivalé]

I just woke up and read what i missed and IDEK anymore.

Ssstill getting bad vibes from BBM tho

[eclipse]

Randa: I'm in the middle of replying to stuff, so here's a suggestion. Link the long posts. Like this (sorry Dormio, you were the most convenient example)

[eclipse]

Bizz = Quote

Okay, so let's pretend that someone does a reaction test early in D1, one so drastic that it puts Elieson to shame. Said reaction test will influence my read, all the way through the game. Its impact won't be as massive during, say, D4, but it'll still be in the back of my mind.

@Mitsuki- Pretty sure you're misinterpreting eclipse's post; she said the scummiest thing about Dormio was his self meta comment and then proceeded not to scumread him (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong here), so the implication is that she's not all that bothered by him. I'm townreading her based on her content (to be more specific, it's more the way it's presented than the actual reads themselves) and her role which does not seem like a scum fakeclaim at all lol (I know there can be scum mayors, but this is just too weird to be like that).

Wasn't scumreading Dormio then, not really scumeading him now, though I wish he'd post more steps to the conclusion instead of just conclusions! He also needs to add whether or not he's willing to lynch himself in the list post

Quote tags these days are shit, can we downgrade again?

[spoiler=The Guide on Tags]So, let's take something quotable. Let's see. . .

oops mod error #1

updated the start-of-day post

Now that we have proof that Prims is indeed straight, let's see what the code behind the quote looks like:

[quote name="Prims" post="3444661" timestamp="1415949880"]
oops mod error #1

updated the start-of-day post
[/quote]

The stuff in the "quote name" part will provide a link back to the post you quoted. You can replace it with:

[quote]Stuff[/quote]

but that's no fun!

Anyway, the stuff you want to quote needs to be between the tags, like the "stuff" in the previous code box. So, if you hit Preview Post, and notice that the stuff you want to quote is outside of the tags, move it so that it's IN the tag, and I won't have to ask myself "WTF is kirsche doing this time".

Also eclipse maybe i'm just dumb but i'm not sure what you're asking for?

Lemme warp back to that post I quoted, and get to the interesting part:

I agree on the shin cases because of the self meta thing when dormio was answering a question about his meta combined with his viata vote in which he votes viata for asking bbm a weird question but viata had asked him due to an interesting play.

Also I feel like the general arguments at this time for why shin is null eg borons are based on meta which doesn't really help me since I've only ever only played one game with shin.

Here's what I didn't see in this post.

1. WHY would Shin vote on someone based on that?

2. Did anyone else feel that Shin wasn't worth voting for? What were their reasons?

That's why it felt really shallow.

See, I practice what I preach in terms of linking long posts! I'd have to do some mod abuse to get the full contents of that post. Instead, I'm going to list out a bunch of bullet points that describe my thoughts as I read through it, since it'll be faster.

- kirsche: regarding self-scumread

- Shin: regarding kirsche regarding self-scumread

- BBM: WHY

- me (1): I'll get to that below; it's too long for a single point

- Rein: Tone it down dude, Rein doesn't deserve that kind of passive-aggressive response

- Paperblade: That was a waste of a quote box

- me (2): That's my call to make, not yours, since this is my read on you

- Boron: WHY don't you agree that conclusion on Refa?

- Marth: The difference between you and Eury is that I get the sense that the latter will sit down and THINK about things, rather than post a bunch of one-liners

- me (3): You missed the part where I said "I'm going to find out WHY my reads are different", which is what you failed to do with the Dormio wagon

Now, back to me (1). This is what I said:

I don't agree with Marth's logic behind Paperblade's vote (Paperblade does that regardless of alignment).

And this is what Bluedoom said:

His Dormio vote really feels like a filler vote. #Meta but I really don't think Town!Paperblade is the type to vote Dormio like he did.

In other words, I get the sense that you're not thinking through your responses, and are instead posting from the hip. Given how you've been reacting to those votes, I'm perfectly content to leave my other account's vote where it is. The only reason why I'm not voting you with my main account is because this is only part 1 of 2 of a wallpost. I have other plans for my main account's vote!

[Paperblade]

BBM is hard defending me because we're scumbuddies imo

@Marth: SMT Mafia is an outlier because Death was obvscum early on. There's no obvscum itg. I wish there was, but you can't always get what you want. I don't really get your case on me other than my play not fitting your perceived meta on me. I also feel like this is too stubborn to be mafplay though

kirsche

Is BBM even townreading Paper though? He never makes that clear, he just attacks those who're suspecting him.

If BBM was defending someone while not townreading them that should be setting off red flags

Mancer

Why did you even bring up the fact that you think that there are scum on the Dormio wagon if you are not going to pursue it. You went to point out players who were not so likely to be scum on the wagon when your initial point was that there were scum on the wagon? What? I'm not following this.

Marth is voting me, I was on the Dormio wagon. ?

Randa

i dont think i've ever seen spamerblade.

Go read the last 2 days of the first CYOR: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43778&p=2767400

Also if you think I'm town why're you still votan me

More later maybe, busy-ish weekend

[Dormio]

1.4 Votals - Did something actually change Edition

Bluedoom (1): BBM, MancerNecro

Junk (1): Shin, Sunwoo

?

[Randa]

Randa: I'm in the middle of replying to stuff, so here's a suggestion. Link the long posts. Like this (sorry Dormio, you were the most convenient example)

okay ill do that probably tomorrow when my heads not killing me.

[eclipse]

shin lives in the Mysterious Timezone of the Universe where money actually grows on trees and there may, in fact, be unicorns

Pretty sure Shin isn't Scottish.

Why would Boron read as more cautious if she has a lot of work? If anything, wouldn't that make her less cautious because she's focused on other things? Also your read on her is incredibly waffly (I know you love that stuff, but yeesh), because I can't tell what exactly you think is townie/scummy about her.

I have my own theories as to why Shin posted that about Boron, but now isn't the time to rolespec. I noticed that tidbit, but decided it would probably be best to make a mental note of it and move on.

Mitsuki is probably hanging in the background for IRL reasons she cited earlier; it's not fair of you to excuse Boron for the same reasons (note that I don't have any issues with you doing so for Boron, should probably factor that into my own read) while harping on Mitsuki for hanging around in the background (especially with only one post to her name).

The only reason why I'm not laying into Mitsuki is because she still seems busy. I don't care for her posts, but I also get the sense that she's picking out one thing, sitting on it, and using that as her read, as opposed to taking everything into account. Once I get the sense that she had time to fully read and analyze everything, I'll give a more in-depth response.

One, I seemed to have made like a million typos. Two, a vote is a beautiful tool! Of course it's obvious that I have other scumreads, but I feel like prying into this one further.

What was typo'd, and what did you intend to express?

@Shin: Your vote serves no purpose and calling it a beautiful tool is quite pointless as well. Voting someone who's probably not going to be able to respond for some time is a waste of your vote.

How do you know that Junko won't be around?

To clarify, you've stated that you do not find his actions scummy. This doesn't actually indicate any sort of read on him.

It's a semi-implication thing. Let's say that I thought Prims' actions were scummy. That could mean anything from extremely dumb town to actual scum. Now, let's say that I thought Prims' actions were NOT scummy. Does a read of "I think Prims is scum despite the fact that his actions aren't scummy" make sense to you? What I got from Boron was that Dormio wasn't on the scummy side of things - whether he's null/town is another matter entirely.

My issue is that there's a discrepancy between your tone and your actual content. Tis why I'm a lot less confident about my read on you than on Shin despite having written a roughly equal number of words on both.

What are you getting from Boron's tone? I see bits of things that could be toned down, but tone/content doesn't seem to mismatch FMPOV.

Junk seems to waltz in right in the middle of the day and place a random vote on me what? That and he cases Shin but then goes "I don't think I've voted" and voted for me? Seems contradictory and random.....

I have my own issues with Junko. But this isn't one of them. From what I could tell, he hit Add Reply too soon, and forgot to tack on the vote. Sloppy, but doesn't say anything about his alignment.

Eclipse feels like she's quoting and commenting on most stuff just for the sake of posting about many things without a clear purpose in mind. This post is an example of that. It may just be bias though, I'd like other people to give their thoughts on this.

Here's my thought on it: don't skim my posts. Or anything else in this game. Because the only way I can see how you'd come to that conclusion is if you skipped the part where I'm giving reads in that post you linked, while trying to get reads from other people. The more information I can winnow out, the better for everyone.

This is the post. He brings up the scum read but says "it doesn't feel as strong as he has the tendency to tunnel and make a mountain out of a molehill of small things". Then what is the point of bringing up the read in the first place if you are going to counter it right away in the same paragraph?

It's called CLARIFICATION.

@Mitsuki- Pretty sure you're misinterpreting eclipse's post; she said the scummiest thing about Dormio was his self meta comment and then proceeded not to scumread him (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong here), so the implication is that she's not all that bothered by him. I'm townreading her based on her content (to be more specific, it's more the way it's presented than the actual reads themselves) and her role which does not seem like a scum fakeclaim at all lol (I know there can be scum mayors, but this is just too weird to be like that).

Oh, hey, I'm going to respond to this again~!

I could easily log on with the other account, have it wagon-hop indiscriminately, and claim something else as my role. The alt account looks scummy, but as long as it can't be traced back to me, it would be pretty easy for me to place a second vote in convenient places without explaining it.

This is interesting. This seems to imply that Boron sees Shin as not-scum, albeit very indirectly.

The thing is, his read on Paperblade is what, based off meta? I really feel like he could really have found a stronger read than Paperblade right about now. Bluedoom's been around and posting while Paperblade is not active right now so what is the point of keeping his vote on Paperblade. Also, I believe that he could actually find much stronger cases than Paperblade, really. tbh, in that post I quoted, the first half of his case against me already feels stronger than his case against Paperblade so I don't understand why he adds that whole second half of that post to counterargue against his initial read.

Then why aren't you up in Refa's hair for using a LOT of meta for his reads?

Oh crap, why am I spamming so much now?

Am I really such a spammer that my game is only really up when I spam the thread?

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, WOULD IT KILL YOU TO PUT YOUR RESPONSES ON A PIECE OF PAPER FIRST?

Hi SB. I don't care for the Mancer/Shin/Paperblade logic - it's mostly meta justifications. What about content?

Refa, lay off the meta, that stuff's addicting and will destroy your life. Not scumreading Boron, but her responses have been. . .interesting (though can you please cut down on some of the more aggressive bits that have nothing to do with the game). I'd really like it if Mitsuki would sit down and read everything, so that I don't have to dig through my own ISO and explain what's wrong with her conclusion (since making well-informed conclusions is on her, not me). I'd need time to sit down and think about Marth, but I'm running late for something. Still don't like Mancer even after his latest bout of responses, and am perfectly fine keeping my vote where it is.

[riariadne]

I just woke up to like 150 new posts jesus christ guys

this with "wake up" to "got home" (realistically i knew some of them are happening but did not want to mafia at 1 AM today which i think is reasonable)

[charlie_]

It's not really meta in the case of Mancer, it's just that he'll probably try and play differently than what he did last game considering it netted him the D1 lynch. The Shin thing is meta, yeah, but I don't really see the problem with it, even if his content has been kind of questionable in places. And I was using the meta thing in order to counter Marth's meta argument on Paper too, so.

Paper, why is Marth's vote on you too stubborn to come from scum?

[Junk]

People usually vote for self meta because it generally tends to be used for WIFOM IMO. However in this context BBM had been talking about dormios meta so why couldn't dormio use meta? I don't get how dormio was trying to say nope i'm town?

Bluedooms reasons were that Shin was generally a hard player to read. Again I've only played with shin in one game so I can't really say whether or not he's a hard player to read generally.

SB:Scum shin being low key as scum meta yeah.

I'm confused by Mancer's SB vote. I don't get how disliking a persons interpretations of other peoples post makes them scummy and how SB was trying to make an excuse to bandwagon? I'll admit though his bluedoom case is better.

##Unvote:

##Vote shin

also you can't expect a response from me at 4:00 AM shin XD

[Percivalé]

¿¿??? junko's vote confuses me

[Refa]

Next level mafia playing.

[Shinori]

Okay I've been busy today. Working on a post and will get something up in a few. Possibly few hours though because I have massive headache. Point is, I'll get something up tonight.

[Shin]

##Unvote:

##Vote shin

also you can't expect a response from me at 4:00 AM shin XD

Words cannot explain this vote. Junko, please at least give some basis for the vote. Currently, it just confirms that you're not actually thinking and just going with the flow.

[Mitsuki]

I get that I haven't exactly been active, but I don't think my activity has been terrible to the point that several people have complained about it. It's D1, there have just been a lot more pages than usually.

So I'm basically going to scratch my Eclipse, Shin and Mancer reads. Eclipse and Shin haven't kept scumreading Dormio (well, apparently Eclipse never suspected him in the first place) so it feels more like they were bringing up that content because it was ED1, and I don't have much of an issue with their recent posts.

One question though, @Shin: Could you clarify your thoughts on Dormio? I'm not sure I've understood what you meant.

On the other hand Mancer is spamming like crazy and I'd rather have him stop, but I can see how his play could make sense from a townie perspective. I don't have issues with the tone of his posts anymore, either.

I still think Randa is scum. He went and made a huge wall in which he commented on many posts, most of which is filler, and his earlier posts are more of the same. Also, why would you keep your vote on someone you're townreading now if you're not planning on voting someone else for a while? (I'm assuming that Randa intended to place a new vote along with his second replies post). Also, I don't have any issues with his amount of content by itself, but taking into account how active he's been I think that the ratio of content in his posts is too little.

Overall I can't see a clear train of thought behind Randa's actions, it feels like he's just focused on seeming contributing rather than on scumhunting.

##Unvote

##Vote: Randa

I feel like the last three pages are the only thing I've read properly this game. I'll be ISOing people, but I doubt I'll be able to post about it until tomorrow. (It's 12pm here right now)

[Grace]

?

shhhh. you saw nothing

[Mitsuki]

I think I get why Junko is scumreading Shin based on Junko's previous posts, but @Junko: why is Shin suddenly worse than Mancer?