FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[KitheOfEvrark]

I think my suggestion about Gregor got lost somewhere in the discussion up to this point so I'll reiterate it. I think Gregor could go above Vaike. Both of them have slight speed problems, but Gregor doesn't need a second seal to fix his. Gregor also can get Sol without much trouble. That combined with his pretty good defense and hp means he's pretty durable. Being able to promote to Hero instantly helps as well. I must confess I haven't used him as a serious combat unit, but if nothing else he seems like a good pair up partner. I know a lot of people have mentioned him as a good partner for Nowi. Is there any one else who would benefit a lot from his bonuses? I suppose Cherche might, but I'm not sure about anyone else. In any case, Gregor's worth deploying at least in some cases solely as support.

Vaike on the other hand, really needs to reclass to Barbarian to not have speed issues. He has good hp but mediocre defense so his durability really isn't that good. He has a huge availabilty advantage, but I really haven't seen him able to do much early game.

[Lord Raven]

Elwind is, as I said, pretty useful for the interim between Ch.11 (when Nosferatu will likely run out) and Ch.13. These hit concerns have yet to be solidified past theorycraft; Pair Up exists, Anathema and Hex exist, skill potions exist, True Hit exists, forging exists.

I was referring to her long-term use as well as her short-term hit problems.

- Her Defense growth has been measured to be closer to 30% (+/- 5% so the 2sigma confidence is 10%) than 45% like it says on the site. Therefore, Nosferatu is desperately needed, and if she gets hit enough times then boop! Dead!

- Forging Nosferatu to +25 Hit requires around 8000+ Gold. This means one Nosferatu tome in a blue moon can be forged, because that's about one Large Bullion per forged Nosferatu. Even +15 hit won't keep her a reliable Nosferatu user, since her Defense remains an issue.

- +Skill supports don't give her much Luck or Defense to further boost her reliability. Compound all the skill you want onto her and she gets to the adequate enough skill that lets her have 80% hit on enemies because Nosferatu is pretty dang inaccurate.

- I forget which of the two only activate on adjacent allies.

- Is this a 2 RN game? Either way, remember that 80% displayed = 92% true and 70% = 82% true. I wouldn't bank on Tharja being that great a tank later on in the game and in the mid game. But that assumes it's worth pairing her with Lon'qu upon joining, as opposed to allowing Lon'qu to continue doing his thing against enemies.

- Regardless of all of the above points, Chapter 16 does her absolutely no favors because that's when enemies start to get strong again and they not only have good hit rates on her but her hit rates falls substantially again. You have these Heroes with good speed and Chapter 17 (or 18?) has many fast Griffon Riders and Swordmasters that can do a lot of damage to her but she's hard pressed to double attack them. Chapter 18 (or 17?) has pretty fast Valkyries and Heroes that she doesn't have the best hit rate against, rendering her Nosferatanking quite inconsistent. Plus, Battle Monks with high resistance stats that she still won't be able to double attack effectively. She still needs supports to help Nosferatank, and she still needs other units to help take blows alongside her.

On paper, she seems really cool, but FE isn't really played on paper and she doesn't seem to fit these ridiculously high standards set on her until the endgame chapters (post-Valm).

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lord Raven

[grandjackal]

Two things:

1. Fire Emblem is a variable series with variable hit /avoid and growth rates. Even if you tell me how do perform a strategy step-by-step, there will still be instances where I need to think on my feet.

To which your supposed brainless strat of "everyone has Nos energy drinks", to which more than one person has made points against it that you simply hand wave and continue to sponsor Nos energy drink. There is at least anecdotal evidence that says you are not correct.

As for things like skill tonics, pair ups (to which I pointed out a possible flaw) and her skills (to which Raven pointed out said problem) AND forging, you may notice that this is a lot of resources that most people do not need to do what she does.

I can at least see the point of something safe as opposed to coinflipping, but you are still coinflipping or otherwise putting a lot down on one unit that is still flawed (namely, only 5-6 move. Being a foot soldier still has it's issues, and most mounts do not give her a superb amount of Skill).

[Legault!]

- Her Defense growth has been measured to be closer to 30% (+/- 5% so the 2sigma confidence is 10%) than 45% like it says on the site. Therefore, Nosferatu is desperately needed, and if she gets hit enough times then boop! Dead!

"If she gets hit enough times" assumes that the player has inexplicably decided to de-equip Vengeance.

- Forging Nosferatu to +25 Hit requires around 8000+ Gold. This means one Nosferatu tome in a blue moon can be forged, because that's about one Large Bullion per forged Nosferatu. Even +15 hit won't keep her a reliable Nosferatu user, since her Defense remains an issue.

Her defense is fine considering that taking more damage means getting more HP back with Nosferatu. She doesn't need to dodge 100% of the time to survive 100% of the time. And who's talking about max-hit forging? Just a simple +10 Hit works wonders.

- +Skill supports don't give her much Luck or Defense to further boost her reliability. Compound all the skill you want onto her and she gets to the adequate enough skill that lets her have 80% hit on enemies because Nosferatu is pretty dang inaccurate.

Hitting over 9 out of 10 times, doubling everyone, dodging frequently, healing with every attack, and having Vengeance sounds pretty good to me.

- Regardless of all of the above points, Chapter 16 does her absolutely no favors because that's when enemies start to get strong again and they not only have good hit rates on her but her hit rates falls substantially again. You have these Heroes with good speed and Chapter 17 (or 18?) has many fast Griffon Riders and Swordmasters that can do a lot of damage to her but she's hard pressed to double attack them. Chapter 18 (or 17?) has pretty fast Valkyries and Heroes that she doesn't have the best hit rate against, rendering her Nosferatanking quite inconsistent. Plus, Battle Monks with high resistance stats that she still won't be able to double attack effectively. She still needs supports to help Nosferatank, and she still needs other units to help take blows alongside her.

Every unit needs supports.

You still haven't demonstrated where these mystical hit problems are coming from. Skill potions, (modest) forging, Pair Up bonuses, Hex and Anathema (which you didn't include in your calculations), and she doesn't need to hit everything to solo the game. A miss every once in a while is peachy.

To which your supposed brainless strat of "everyone has Nos energy drinks", to which more than one person has made points against it that you simply hand wave and continue to sponsor Nos energy drink. There is at least anecdotal evidence that says you are not correct.

There is anecdotal evidence for everything. There is anecdotal evidence that Ricken is a beast when trained up. There is anecdotal evidence that FE8 is a good game. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much.

[dondon151]

1. Fire Emblem is a variable series with variable hit /avoid and growth rates. Even if you tell me how do perform a strategy step-by-step, there will still be instances where I need to think on my feet.

definitely true, and this is one major difference between FE11 and FE13: FE11 could be completed on 0% growths (thus removing the growth dependence somewhat), but i'm not sure about FE13 (though it might be! who knows). regardless, though, having to think on your feet is a far cry away from coming up with the strategy on your own.

2. Assume you're correct. Brainless completion every time > brainless completion every time past the first time. Also consider who this tier list is for: people who know LTC strats inside and out, or less extreme players?

ah, see, a visionary named smash fanatic once tried to make a tier list like this. the problem that inevitably comes up is that the people who partake in the formation of the tier list have their conceptions about the game colored too much by experience. if you know the game inside and out, it is pretty hard to bring yourself back down to the level of a newbie.

plus it raises another question (where we've already been as well): what's a "less extreme" player? what can that kind of player do and not do? you could argue endlessly about that kind of thing. in the end i think it's just better to let the tier list evolve naturally.

[Legault!]

definitely true, and this is one major difference between FE11 and FE13: FE11 could be completed on 0% growths (thus removing the growth dependence somewhat), but i'm not sure about FE13 (though it might be! who knows). regardless, though, having to think on your feet is a far cry away from coming up with the strategy on your own.

I assume there are various strategies depending on how rolls play out. A 0% growth absolute LTC is going to be different from an average growth absolute LTC is going to be different from a 100% growth absolute LTC, and everything in between. Shifting one's mind back and forth between strategy sets requires brain power. Nosferatu -> win requires no brain power.

ah, see, a visionary named smash fanatic once tried to make a tier list like this. the problem that inevitably comes up is that the people who partake in the formation of the tier list have their conceptions about the game colored too much by experience. if you know the game inside and out, it is pretty hard to bring yourself back down to the level of a newbie.

I'd say using general reliability as a standard over LTC works well enough to "bring one down" back to newbie level. There's a grey area here, of course, as "absolute reliability" would be very tedious and actually require lots of brain power.

plus it raises another question (where we've already been as well): what's a "less extreme" player? what can that kind of player do and not do? you could argue endlessly about that kind of thing. in the end i think it's just better to let the tier list evolve naturally.

A less extreme player is someone who wants to play through the game at a reasonable pace without concerning him- or herself with absolute LTC.

[Lord Raven]

"If she gets hit enough times" assumes that the player has inexplicably decided to de-equip Vengeance.

Her defense is fine considering that taking more damage means getting more HP back with Nosferatu. She doesn't need to dodge 100% of the time to survive 100% of the time. And who's talking about max-hit forging? Just a simple +10 Hit works wonders.

Vengeance has lower activation rate because her skill sucks.

Hitting over 9 out of 10 times, doubling everyone, dodging frequently, healing with every attack, and having Vengeance sounds pretty good to me.

You still haven't demonstrated where these mystical hit problems are coming from. Skill potions, (modest) forging, Pair Up bonuses, Hex and Anathema (which you didn't include in your calculations), and she doesn't need to hit everything to solo the game. A miss every once in a while is peachy.

She has 5 skill at base, assuming 40% skill growth as a Sorcerer (which our calculations seem to back up), she has maybe around 12 skill to do things with at base/10 Sorcerer (9 levels * .4 + 2 from promo gives her more like 10 or 11 but w/e). That's 18 hit = 83 hit from Nosferatu. Let's say we toss in a +9 to hit from a +6 skill support, then another +20 hit and that's 112 hit base from Nosferatu. Pretty mediocre, given that enemy units will probably have 40-50 evade if not more throughout much of the game she's promoted. If they attack adjacently then they are at a good hitrate. Many units have 1-2 range and lose 15 evade, meaning that she has maybe 80% hit against many units at the most, assuming she has a pair up partner. And even then, if she doesn't avoid enough hits she can still be killed easily because Vengeance will have 24% activation rate in the midgame (maybe 32 at the very most because her skill is low) and is nowhere near reliable enough to keep her healthy, and her defense is measured to be quite low and enemies do quite a bit of damage to her low defenses. She has good HP sure... but that doesn't mean much when even if you double and kill, you still don't always heal back all of your HP and there is still quite a decent chance that she can die on an enemy phase in the midgame. Endgame you may have a point, but midgame she is still suffering.

Skill potion adds +4% Vengeance and +3% hit so don't worry too much about that.

Conclusion? When she doesn't hit she's a a lot closer to death than before. A lot more than others give the impression. Also remember that Nosferatu heals HP/2, and not HP, so if she takes hits (Which is likely given her Luck stat and the fact that Hex/Anathema won't hinder enough to make her reliably dodge whenever she does hit) she's not healing them all the way back necessarily. I'll give you this; Tharja is very clutch sometimes, but the probabilities stack against her far more in the long-term use (throughout a chapter) than in using her for a turn or 2 in a single chapter when you need something clutch to happen. But overall, I wouldn't trust her to be a character that can effectively solo.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Legault!]

Vengeance has lower activation rate because her skill sucks.

+2 skill promotion bonus, average of +4 skill to her base by 15/5, let's be conservative and say +4 skill through Pair Up / support bonuses. That's a 30% activation rate, meaning that assuming she double-attacks near everything, and she basically will be, Vengeance's activation rate starts out reasonably reliable and only improves as the game progresses.

Skill potion adds +4% Vengeance and +3% hit so don't worry too much about that.

With True Hit, +3 hit is actually more -- probably around +5-6.

Conclusion? When she doesn't hit she's a a lot closer to death than before.

I'm still not seeing how 90-100% true hit even at base with a competent Pair Up partner and Hex / Anathema, consistent double attacking, healing after every attack, and reliable Vengeance activation constitute anything other than a very broken unit.

[Lord Raven]

Because she doesn't have infinte evade to complement that, and she doesn't always have above 90% hit. Averages also have an upper and a lower end, and there are many units in the midgame with more than 40 evade too lol

Consistent double attacking? Sure but I don't think having around 25-30 AS is consistent. If she gets hit even for a thirds of the time she hits, then she's done (and this math is situational so I'm taking a guesstimate in my head [how is situational not a word but guesstimate is? smh google chrome]).

Btw I just looked up the numbers, base Gaius gives her +3 Skill, base lon'qu gives her +1 Skl. If you raise them then Tharja's no longer soloing the game (and I'd take a raised Lon'qu over a raised Tharja) so her +9 skill is highly exaggerated and probably not true. All things considered, she won't get heavy skill boosts unless you trade her AS for it or vice-versa. Her doubling is not consistent with her hitrates. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to pack up, say bye to my sister, and go back to school.

[Florete]

I think people are overblowing the problem of Hit on Tharja. Is it perfect? No. But I feel like people see her starting Hit on her own in her join map and that sticks in their head without taking into account things like:

Pair Up: Auto +10 Hit + more from any skill boosts and more as support levels increase.

Skill Tonics: Small, but effective when even on her own she's really just in the mid 70s.

Forging: Giving +10 Hit to Nosferatu only costs 1470.

With Anathema always being taken account, Hex for most enemies on enemy phase + the above gives her a minimum of ~38 extra hit, increasing with levels and supports +5 more Hit when she reaches B rank tomes. There's even the chance of her being in range of Charm and, if they stack and he's in play, Henry or another Dark Mage's Hex/Anathema. There are so many things that can increase Hit rate in this game that it makes Tharja's problem a lot less problematic. If you want to go the extra mile, and since no one else seems to have this problem, drop a Secret Book and Goddess Icon or two on her. It may be a bit of an issue in the beginning, but by the time Tharja is "Nos-tanking," hitting her enemies really shouldn't be an issue.

[Shadow Mir]

I'll just say that skill effects don't stack with themselves, if you happen to have someone else with said skill in range of the enemy as well (e.g. if an enemy is within range of two Anathema Dark Mages, they still lose only 10 avo/cev).

[eclipse]

Also to clarify some things, someone said they wondered why Sumia is as high as she is, and I can at least say I can see why due to how good a support she is at the start. She supplies flight and speed, and in some chapters like...Which was it, 5? The one with the first draco boss? She provides Chrom a quick way up to start applying Falchion directly to some dragon foreheads, or even better she can just pair up with Frederick. Has anyone tried that pairup? It's ridiculous. It allows Frederick to keep going far after when he supposedly winds down, and lets Sumia be a beast at her start (well, the 18 HP sucks) with that big +4 Def and Str boost. I've found it so effective I've used it in a majority of my playthroughs with great success. It can help Fred hit level 10 so he can reclass to something else (like Gryphon or Paladin), or get level 15 for Dual Guard+ (which is great on a high def unit that has an S support with someone fairly fragile) then switch to Paladin or Gryphon (who have what I feel to be pretty sweet level 5 skills).

As for Stahl...Placeholder? I've used him once, and found him fairly effective with a starting Kellam support (though there are a lot that want Kellam's support). Lacks the doubling offense, but his Def is s high that he doesn't care. For the most part he could pretty much walk into a crowd and hulksmash. That...was as far as I bothered cause I was training Kellam for 10/5 so he'd be an amazing Cordelia support, but I could see potential in Stahl in a similar fashion. However, I'll admit that I'm probably ot the best to argue in Stahl's sake.

I'm a huge fan of Fred/Sumia, too. Sumia's mobility can put Fred in the middle of things quickly, and they'll tickle him for a long time. As long as she doesn't encounter arrows, she can grab some experience off of the leftovers. It's a pretty effective combination, as long as Sumia gets some levels. They'll probably taper off right before the final chapters, but that should be more than enough time for the rest of your army to catch up.

Stahl/Kellam is great for leveling both of them. Stahl turns into a mounted Knight, and Kellam can be placed in the heart of action. It made Paralogue 1 a joke (it was so ridiculous I nearly missed Donnel). Stahl really wants a speedy lady support (from the bonuses list, Olivia looks like a good choice, even if she comes so ridiculously late), because he'll fall behind otherwise.

Now, for Tharja's hit problems, has anyone paired her with Donnel? He gives nothing but Skill/Luck.

[riariadne]

Now, for Tharja's hit problems, has anyone paired her with Donnel? He gives nothing but Skill/Luck.

Tharja doesn't double consistently without a +speed support, so this gives her an even worse problem.

[Shadow Mir]

Now, for Tharja's hit problems, has anyone paired her with Donnel? He gives nothing but Skill/Luck.

In addition to what LS pointed out, once he reclasses, he won't give Skill and Luck out anymore.

[OrangeCrush980]

Here's an important question:

Let's say you can recruit this character in Chapter 10 called Basilio Jr. He can only start gaining supports in chapter 23. From Chapter 10-22, Basilio Jr. has 1 in all stats, or something similarly awful. There is no question that fielding him is the worst possible choice you can make.

As soon as you hit Chapter 23, Basilio Jr. suddenly upgrades, to have stats equal to a joining-level Basilio, only slightly better. Let's say 1 more Res and HP or something. He only does this if deployed on every map up to this point, however.

Which unit would be higher on this tier list, Basilio Jr. or Basilio?

[Legault!]

Here's an important question:

Let's say you can recruit this character in Chapter 10 called Basilio Jr. He can only start gaining supports in chapter 23. From Chapter 10-22, Basilio Jr. has 1 in all stats, or something similarly awful. There is no question that fielding him is the worst possible choice you can make.

As soon as you hit Chapter 23, Basilio Jr. suddenly upgrades, to have stats equal to a joining-level Basilio, only slightly better. Let's say 1 more Res and HP or something. He only does this if deployed on every map up to this point, however.

Which unit would be higher on this tier list, Basilio Jr. or Basilio?

This is a very unimportant question.

Basilio Jr. would contribute Pair Up bonuses. If he somehow didn't, then he could in theory deal out chip damage in exchange for being a liability -- in which case Basilio Jr. would be worse. What does this question have to do with the tier list? Thought experiments need to be directly relevant to some character comparison.

[OrangeCrush980]

Oh right, Basilio Jr. can't participate in the Pair Up system until chapter 23.

[Integrity]

I don't get this thought exercise at all.

[Florete]

Here's an important question:

Let's say you can recruit this character in Chapter 10 called Basilio Jr. He can only start gaining supports in chapter 23. From Chapter 10-22, Basilio Jr. has 1 in all stats, or something similarly awful. There is no question that fielding him is the worst possible choice you can make.

As soon as you hit Chapter 23, Basilio Jr. suddenly upgrades, to have stats equal to a joining-level Basilio, only slightly better. Let's say 1 more Res and HP or something. He only does this if deployed on every map up to this point, however.

Which unit would be higher on this tier list, Basilio Jr. or Basilio?

Basilio Jr. would be better if only because one very rarely, if ever, wants to use every deployment slot available at that point in the game and simply keeping him away from enemies is easy enough.

But as Legault! said, this is wholly irrelevant and useless unless you have something to connect it with. I don't see how it connects to anything being discussed or how it would provide anything helpful to the list in general.

[Redwall]

Is there something completely obvious I'm missing? Getting Basilio Jr. to Basilio status has an opportunity cost; fielding Basilio Jr. in his twelve or so maps means you can't field someone else in his place. Vanilla Basilio would be higher.

edit: my guess is that this is some segue to Donnel discussion

edit 2: OK, I guess my answer is not strictly generalizable in that the developers could have made a game in which Chs. 23 onward comprised some kind of bizarre hellpuzzle in which upgraded Basilio Jr. benefits your team in a much bigger way than Vanilla Basilio and, for that matter, the unit you would have otherwise deployed in his place, and in which Chs. 10-22 were easy enough that fielding Basilio Jr. would, all things considered, grant the player a net positive in terms of opportunity cost. But I'm not aware of any such scenarios in Awakening HM.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Redwall

[dondon151]

we've also had a variant of the basilio jr. thought exercise before -_-

[Khan of Blades]

Half of the page had discussions comprised of an imaginary character. Lol'd.

[Legault!]

Important question: Tharja comes with Hawkeye+, but using her means forfeiting Panne and reduces Avatar's Veteran experience bonus by a multiple of 1.7 unless your 3DS clock is set to Wednesday; in addition, Chrom must marry Mariabelle and Lucina starts with one point in all stats, but can only be hit by super effective attacks. Who is better in this scenario, Basilio or Basilio Jr.?

This is the difference between absolute and brisk LTC. Answer carefully.

[Florete]

Half of the page had discussions comprised of an imaginary character. Lol'd.

How short are your pages that 5 posts causes this? (Clearly the obvious answer is 10 posts but I feel the need to ask anyway)

Edited March 24, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Legault!]

How short are your pages that 5 posts causes this? (Clearly the obvious answer is 10 posts but I feel the need to ask anyway)

Pretty sure he was speaking in hyperbole. And he's right -- empty thought experiments that are wholly irrelevant are ridiculous.