FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[grandjackal]

So, now that we have that mostly taken care of (seeing as Interceptor's doing his playthrough of judgement explosion and all), I would like to bring the idea of Libra jumping up to around Tharja's level, either being above her, below her, or even jump to S tier.

Reasons being that his combat for the most part surpasses anyone he shares his current tier with (In fact, I wanna say Gregors 10 speed shoots him in the foot. most enemies in his join time can have up to 11 speed, so even with a speed support he's not doubling. If you don't reclass him (where he will still need a speed support) or promote him instantly (where he suffers the leveling speed problem), Gregor's pretty much relegated to being an amazing support bot. Miriel is a character that permanently always has a problem, where if it's not her offense then it's her terrible durability, something that Libra for the most part doesn't have as big a problem. His starting durability isn't fantastic, but a defensive support does offer him a good amount of meat to make use of. Nowi will take about an eon just to reach Libra's base speed in order to even have offense in some form, Cherche has speed issues considering she joins several chapters later with 2 less base speed, and Vaike basically has to hit 10 and reclass before he finally decides to stop being another dude with 6 base speed. Libra's problems tend to be oriented towards being bland lategame, but has the fact that he is probably your best staff rank in the game and will probably be doing stuff like using Physic and eventually Fortify. Fairly unique in this as well, seeing as Anna needs a arms scroll to meet his staff rank, and your other two staffers suck in comparison.

Reason I say he doesn't go to the next tier for certain is because Tharja's problem is just starting hit rate, as to which eventually she becomes a pretty astounding combat unit pretty quick, to which I feel can outclass most of Libra's performance. Really, depends on how one would judge the use of high rank staffs later in the game, or even just staff use in general. Although one can ignore how Rescue can be used to 1 turn boss kill maps, a good majority of maps are route maps, to which Libra with Rescue can be a second unit that helps with the team's mobility significantly, seeing as he comes out the gate with a base range of 8. Due to how much exp staffs like Rescue and Ward gives, I've noticed he gains levels at a fair pace, and getting Renewal around chapter uhh...the one with Yen'fay or whatever his name is. I would say it's pretty fair he can pass that skill down to a lategame kid, such as Noire.

Speaking of Noire, how perfect a support is Libra+Tharja? He gives her the acc and luck she desperately needs, and though she would appreciate defense when she goes dark knight to run the murdertrain, she's one of the few supports that gives him things he wants in return: Magic for staff range and potency, along with Defense to survive and be good. While his combat does fall with his physical strength, he can simply class change to Sage once he has Renewal for a magic boost, bizarrely getting more speed (+1), and now having tomes to work with off his superior magic stat along with an interesting Rally (Luck+Mag). He loses durability, but by that point in the game he's probably going to be the ultimate staff user so he doesn't mind all that much. Continuing with Noire though, both Tharja and Libra are characters with good stats in classes with bad stat bases. Can pretty easily make Noire's stats secure in this sense, along with give her an amazing magic stat so that when reclassed to something magical in nature, she will actually pack a good enough punch to keep up with the force while paired with either parent. Considering that from Tharja she can take Lifetaker in conjunction with Renewal, her sustain is good enough to say that if she isn't straight killed during an enemy phase, she will simply be back to full health for the next enemy phase. Her sustain is even more hilarious if she goes Dark Mage for Nosferatu, but that could even be overkill.

[Bryan]

But there's already a thread for that.

There wasn't when this one was created. This tier list has always been a lunatic tier list, just no one wants to admit it.

[Florete]

There wasn't when this one was created. This tier list has always been a lunatic tier list, just no one wants to admit it.

If this were a Lunatic list, Panne would drop, Tharja would probably be S tier, and Donnel would be rock bottom. This is not a Lunatic list. The jump in difficulty from Hard to Lunatic is pretty big.

So, now that we have that mostly taken care of (seeing as Interceptor's doing his playthrough of judgement explosion and all), I would like to bring the idea of Libra jumping up to around Tharja's level, either being above her, below her, or even jump to S tier.

At first I was going to give this a "lol no," but seeing who is directly above him, I can actually see him moving to just below Tharja. Not above, though. And I think you mean "jump to A tier." Suggesting S tier is the part that had me loling.

[Shadow Mir]

/checks

...Wait, why is Libra that low anyway?

[grandjackal]

At first I was going to give this a "lol no," but seeing who is directly above him, I can actually see him moving to just below Tharja. Not above, though. And I think you mean "jump to A tier." Suggesting S tier is the part that had me loling.

Woops, yeah. Meant A tier, my bad.

But understandable if one disagrees with him going above Tharja.

[Interceptor]

/checks

...Wait, why is Libra that low anyway?

The list is still young. Some people haven't really gotten tossed yet. Stahl is another one that qualifies for a deeper inspection.

[Momentai~]

I don't mean to be a bother...

I know I asked this already, but I didn't get an answer. Does Miriel hold her position because of nosferatu tanking potential or because of rescue? If she's doing one then she can't do the other...

Unless it's the fact that she has the option to go either way? Which path does she want more?

Also, what's considered the best path for Virion? Does he want to second seal to a wyvern so he can start avoid stacking, or would he prefer to get bowbreaker before he becomes a flier?

[monkymeet]

The list is still young. Some people haven't really gotten tossed yet. Stahl is another one that qualifies for a deeper inspection.

There was a lot of talk about Libra on like, page 4-5. But nothing was really done. He really needs to go up. Instant 8-range physic, great durability with decent res/def/hp growths especially when compared to other non-Anna staff users, doesn't run a large risk of being doubled often because 14 speed at Chapter 9 is pretty solid. C-axe is a nice little cherry on top allowing for attacking opportunities if needed.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Libra has been moved up to below Tharja. This is by no means final but seems like a sane place to put him.

[eclipse]

So, now that we have that mostly taken care of (seeing as Interceptor's doing his playthrough of judgement explosion and all), I would like to bring the idea of Libra jumping up to around Tharja's level, either being above her, below her, or even jump to S tier.

Reasons being that his combat for the most part surpasses anyone he shares his current tier with (In fact, I wanna say Gregors 10 speed shoots him in the foot. most enemies in his join time can have up to 11 speed, so even with a speed support he's not doubling. If you don't reclass him (where he will still need a speed support) or promote him instantly (where he suffers the leveling speed problem), Gregor's pretty much relegated to being an amazing support bot. Miriel is a character that permanently always has a problem, where if it's not her offense then it's her terrible durability, something that Libra for the most part doesn't have as big a problem. His starting durability isn't fantastic, but a defensive support does offer him a good amount of meat to make use of. Nowi will take about an eon just to reach Libra's base speed in order to even have offense in some form, Cherche has speed issues considering she joins several chapters later with 2 less base speed, and Vaike basically has to hit 10 and reclass before he finally decides to stop being another dude with 6 base speed. Libra's problems tend to be oriented towards being bland lategame, but has the fact that he is probably your best staff rank in the game and will probably be doing stuff like using Physic and eventually Fortify. Fairly unique in this as well, seeing as Anna needs a arms scroll to meet his staff rank, and your other two staffers suck in comparison.

Reason I say he doesn't go to the next tier for certain is because Tharja's problem is just starting hit rate, as to which eventually she becomes a pretty astounding combat unit pretty quick, to which I feel can outclass most of Libra's performance. Really, depends on how one would judge the use of high rank staffs later in the game, or even just staff use in general. Although one can ignore how Rescue can be used to 1 turn boss kill maps, a good majority of maps are route maps, to which Libra with Rescue can be a second unit that helps with the team's mobility significantly, seeing as he comes out the gate with a base range of 8. Due to how much exp staffs like Rescue and Ward gives, I've noticed he gains levels at a fair pace, and getting Renewal around chapter uhh...the one with Yen'fay or whatever his name is. I would say it's pretty fair he can pass that skill down to a lategame kid, such as Noire.

Speaking of Noire, how perfect a support is Libra+Tharja? He gives her the acc and luck she desperately needs, and though she would appreciate defense when she goes dark knight to run the murdertrain, she's one of the few supports that gives him things he wants in return: Magic for staff range and potency, along with Defense to survive and be good. While his combat does fall with his physical strength, he can simply class change to Sage once he has Renewal for a magic boost, bizarrely getting more speed (+1), and now having tomes to work with off his superior magic stat along with an interesting Rally (Luck+Mag). He loses durability, but by that point in the game he's probably going to be the ultimate staff user so he doesn't mind all that much. Continuing with Noire though, both Tharja and Libra are characters with good stats in classes with bad stat bases. Can pretty easily make Noire's stats secure in this sense, along with give her an amazing magic stat so that when reclassed to something magical in nature, she will actually pack a good enough punch to keep up with the force while paired with either parent. Considering that from Tharja she can take Lifetaker in conjunction with Renewal, her sustain is good enough to say that if she isn't straight killed during an enemy phase, she will simply be back to full health for the next enemy phase. Her sustain is even more hilarious if she goes Dark Mage for Nosferatu, but that could even be overkill.

Funny, I did Libra and Tharja. The result was. . .underwhelming, but I suspect that Libra was flat-out stat-screwed (he was killing approximately nothing by the latter part of midgame), and Tharja and the RNG hated each other, so she'd take more damage than she could heal. I'd really like someone else's experience with this.

[grandjackal]

Funny, I did Libra and Tharja. The result was. . .underwhelming, but I suspect that Libra was flat-out stat-screwed (he was killing approximately nothing by the latter part of midgame), and Tharja and the RNG hated each other, so she'd take more damage than she could heal. I'd really like someone else's experience with this.

Well going into lategame, you'll want him to be your primary staff user anyways, since he's the most likely to have the highest staff rank in the army for use of Fortify and other high level staffs. His combat being great is only a bonus for when you first get him. His main draw has always been the staff rank.

EDIT: Also, his magic stat works fantastic when you change him to Sage after getting Renewal.

Edited March 30, 2013 by grandjackal

[aku chi]

Greetings, all. I've been thinking about Panne vs. Sully recently. Both are undoubtedly S Tier units, but I think Sully might be the more valuable unit.

Panne v. Sully

Sully joins on turn 2 of C1 and has all of C1, C2, C3, P1, C4, C5, P2, and part of C6 before Panne joins. She's immediately useable, and flourishes with a Chrom or Stahl support (they likewise benefit from the support). She can make solid contributions in all of these chapters. I reckon Sully can handily gain 8 levels and reach at least C Lances before Panne is recruited. Let's see how they compare initially:

Level 10 Sully (Cavalier): 26.8 HP, 12.8 Skl, 12.8 Spd, 10.8 Lck, 10.6 Def, 4 Res

w Steel Lance: 21.4 Atk

w Javelin: 14.4 Atk

Level 6 Panne (Taguel): 28 HP, 8+3 Str, 9+5 Skl, 10+5 Spd, 8+4 Lck, 7+1 Def, 3 Res

Beaststone: 17 Atk

Panne has a notable Spd advantage, but Sully leads in all other departments. She has +1 mov, considerably better 1-range Atk, existent 1-2 range Atk, slightly better durability, and existent supports. Panne is certainly useable, especially when paired with a unit like Stahl, but Sully contributes more in C6, C7, P3, and C8. At this point we get our first Second Seal. Panne needs this resource to be an S-tier unit. Sully benefits from the Second Seal, but can also contribute greatly as a Cavalier->Paladin (especially if paired with Stahl). Leaving this flexibility advantage aside, let's compare Panne and Sully when re-classed to Wyvern Riders:

Level 14/1 Sully (Wyvern Rider): 31.2 HP, 16.2 Skl, 14.2 Spd, 13.2 Lck, 13.4 Def, 5 Res

w Bronze Axe: 20.6 Atk

Level 10/1 Panne (Wyvern Rider): 33 HP, 13.8 Skl, 13 Spd, 9.6 Lck, 14 Def, 1.8 Res

w Bronze Axe: 21.4 Atk

At this point, Panne and Sully appear pretty even. Sully has a small Spd advantage, Panne has a small Atk advantage. Panne has slightly more physical durability, Sully has moderately more magical durability. Panne also retains her beast weakness, which is rarely, but occasionally, a hindrance. Sully has some additional advantages. She has had much more time to develop supports. It's trivial for Sully to have an A support with Chrom (which is excellent for both) or Stahl (Stahl laments the lack of Spd bonus from Wyvern Rider). Panne is likely still at C-support level with her chosen partner (Stahl? Lon'qu? Vaike? Gregor?). Sully can reach an S support with Chrom or Stahl by the time Panne develops a B-support. It takes Panne several more chapters to reap the benefits of the A and S supports. Panne also lacks the useful Chrom support of Sully. Sully also has Discipline, which has a huge effect as these two units grow. Sully will reach D Axes twice as fast as Panne (for the Iron Axe, Hand Axe, and Hammer). Sully will reach C Axes by the time Panne reaches C Axes (for the Steel Axe, Killer Axe, and Short Axe). Sully will reach B Axes before Panne reaches C Axes (for the Silver Axe). Finally, Sully will reach A Axes not long after Panne reaches C Axes (for +1 Atk). It's not all bad news for Panne; she does have generally superior growths. Let's see their stats at level 10 Wyvern Rider:

Level 14/10 Sully (Wyvern Rider): 38.85 HP, 21.15 Skl, 19.15 Spd, 18.6 Lck, 17.45 Def, 7.25 Res

w Hand Axe: 25.45 Atk

w Steel Axe: 33.45 Atk

w Silver Axe: 37.45 Atk

Level 10/10 Panne (Wyvern Rider): 42.45 HP, 19.65 Skl, 19.3 Spd, 13.2 Lck, 18.5 Def, 3.6 Res

w Hand Axe: 27.15 Atk

w Iron Axe: 31.15 Atk

w Steel Axe: 35.15 Atk

Panne has closed Sully's Spd advantage. Panne has a Str advantage, but Sully can more than offset that with access to better weapons thanks to Discipline. As before, Panne has slightly more physical durability, Sully has slightly more magical durability. So here we are, more than half way through the game, and Panne has yet to be better than Sully. The tables do start to turn, slowly, due to Panne's superior growths. Let's observe the pair at X/20/1 (or X/10/11 or what-have-you) Wyvern Lord.

Level 14/20/1 Sully (Wyvern Lord): 52.35 HP, 28.65 Skl, 26.65 Spd, 24.6 Lck, 24.95 Def, 12.75 Res

w Hand Axe (A-rank): 36.95 Atk

w Silver Axe (A-rank): 48.95 Atk

w Steel Lance: 41.95 Atk

Level 10/20/1 Panne (Wyvern Lord): 57.95 HP, 28.15 Skl, 28.3 Spd, 17.2 Lck, 26.5 Def, 8.6 Res

w Hand Axe (B-rank): 38.65 Atk

w Silver Axe (B-rank): 50.95 Atk

w Bronze Lance: 38.65 Atk

Even after all these level-ups, Panne only has a small Spd and Atk advantage. Sully has the better Lance weapon rank and faster growth, which mostly serves to increase her durability (via avoid) against Sword-wielding units. With more HP, Panne is on the better end of the physical vs. magical durability advantages enjoyed by Panne and Sully, but the advantage is slight.

In conclusion, Sully contributes for seven chapters before Panne is available. Sully is better than Panne for several chapters afterwards. Panne only develops small combat leads over Sully late in the game. Sully also has more flexibility. While I re-classed her to Wyvern Rider in this analysis for ease of comparison to Panne, she does almost as well without the Second Seal as a Cavalier->Paladin. Sully also has a valuable Chrom support that Panne lacks (and Chrom/Sully is a great pairing for both units).

Sully > Panne

[PKL]

Sully getting 8 levels before Panne joins is a crazy favoritism estimate imo.

[JamesBCrazy]

Yeah, Sully will most likely gain 6-7 levels max (without stealing EXP from others.)

[aku chi]

That won't change the analysis much. Subtract 1 Spd, Atk, and Def at most and Panne still doesn't have a notable advantage over Sully until well past the halfway mark.

[Titamon]

Should Ricken even be below Virion?

That just doesn't look right to me.

[Galenforcer]

Virion has some niche usage early on. Ricken shows up among tight competition and easily loses out to the others.

[PKL]

Umm, what is that niche usage you speak of? Using Virion at all in combat will result in disaster most of the time. At least Ricken can counter in EP.

[Galenforcer]

He has free deployment in the first couple stages, which is... something. Ricken joins and he really isn't any better than the others to justify a slot.

[dondon151]

i feel like this isn't like FE6 HM or FE11 H5 where a super shitty early archer is actually useful

[Florete]

Yeah, I've always found Virion's chip to just be superfluous. Maybe (but probably not) he can be of a little help in Ch 1, but he can't do much in Ch 2 in that wide open space, and then Miriel comes and completely out-damages him, and then in Ch 3 half the enemies are Archers anyway, and then yeah, he pretty much sucks. I still think Donnel should be higher, maybe Ricken, too.

EDIT: Hey wait, when and why did Basilio get over Flavia? That can't be right.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[aku chi]

No thoughts on Sully > Panne? :(

[Seven Deadly Sins]

No thoughts on Sully > Panne? :(

We're thinking about it. Interceptor and I want to take a look at how feasible your levelling for Sully is, and how well it works out if she doesn't get the Second Seal, since promotion kinda hurts EXP gain a lot.

RE: Basilio vs. Flavia - They're both last-string combat units that show up super late with no supports and don't achieve a whole hell of a lot, but Basilio can at least rally Strength, which is more of a contribution than most things Flavia's doing.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Florete]

Flavia can reasonably double and kill armored things with Hammers and Wyverns in Ch 24 with Wyrmslayer. Basilio's Rally Strength is kind of superfluous at this point.

[PK Gaming]

^{I wouldn't consider +4 strength boost superfluous in the later chapters though, extra damage can net you ohkoes against sturdier enemies. If you're fielding Basilio, you can use him as a low-maintenance rally strength bot that can keep your army boosted for the later chapters.}